Life span of a Republic: How Long Do We Have?

About the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.  A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.  From that moment on,
the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years.  During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1.  From bondage to spiritual faith;
2.  From spiritual faith to great courage;
3.  From courage to liberty;
4.  From liberty to abundance;
5.  From abundance to complacency;
6.  From complacency to apathy;
7.  From apathy to dependence;
8.  From dependence back into bondage "

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St.  Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election:

Population of counties won by: Gore: 127 million; Bush: 143 million; Square miles of land won by: Gore: 580,000; Bush: 2,427,000 States won by: Gore: 19 Bush: 29 Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore: 13.2 Bush: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens.  Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements living off government welfare..."

Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency & apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

Pass this along to help everyone realize that apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom.

I just don't seem to be able to care.....

Well, 478 years is the current record, maintained by Republican Rome.  

Ours lived until sometime in the 50s.  Pretty good run while it lasted.  Fuck it, it's over.

tag

It's hard to care, I agree.
It's DAMNED hard to care.
Every place I go I hear about how 'bad' this and that is, nobody looks at the positives.

We'll definately get the government we deserve, that's for darned sure!

By my estimate we have about - 41 years left before things start falling apart.

Not saying these are the End Times or anything, just that I feel things are not going to get any better.

I believe that we are more into the dependence stage than anything.


Terror, War, Katrina,  Oil, etc....   Who does everyone look towards?  

The Government.  

Quoted: Ours lived until sometime in the 50s.  Pretty good run while it lasted.  Fuck it, it's over.

That could go work in both sides of an argument, both for and against the establishment.  

We will go until there are no longer enough strong men wanting to breathe free to maintain the Republic.

End "Entitlements"

It is what has led to our social decline and will be our eventual demise.
The only thing to which anyone is entitled is "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness". All too many would give those up for the Right to a handout at the expesne of others.

My grandmother was correct decades ago: "Damn Bolsheviks."

So was McCarthy.

These are some great statistics here.  I'd love to see the same ones for elections of the past 50 years or so.

Quoted: Population of counties won by: Gore: 127 million; Bush: 143 million; Square miles of land won by: Gore: 580,000; Bush: 2,427,000 States won by: Gore: 19 Bush: 29 Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore: 13.2 Bush: 2.1 Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens.  Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements living off government welfare..." Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency & apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase. Pass this along to help everyone realize that apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom.

Quoted: Ours lived until sometime in the 50s.  Pretty good run while it lasted.  Fuck it, it's over.

Rome, with which we have many parallels, had its low and high points, recovering from some bad times periodically.  We CAN do the same. Whether we do will be determined by our strength, our yearning for self determination.

The current influx of illegals in serious and very threatening to our nation. More so than the Islamists IMO. We really need to make more effort to keep the scum out and work on solving our own internal problems.  I see no reason, other than misguided political correctness, to allow mexicans and muslims into our country at all. Fuck 'em.
The only people who are allowed in should be those that provide a notable benefit. Educated people with families, etc. Letting a bunch of illiterate Somalis, Haitians and Mexicans into the US benefits us in NO way and in the end is very detrimental to our country and its future. It only serves to make socialists feel all warm and fuzzy. And who gives a shit about that besides them, the true enemies of this country, its future and freedom.  

Quoted: Rome, with which we have many parallels, had its low and high points, recovering from some bad times periodically.  We CAN do the same. Whether we do will be determined by our strength, our yearning for self determination. The current influx of illegals in serious and very threatening to our nation. More so than the Islamists IMO. We really need to make more effort to keep the scum out and work on solving our own internal problems.  I see no reason, other than misguided political correctness, to allow mexicans and muslims into our country at all. Fuck 'em. The only people who are allowed in should be those that provide a notable benefit. Educated people with families, etc. Letting a bunch of illiterate Somalis, Haitians and Mexicans into the US benefits us in NO way and in the end is very detrimental to our country and its future. It only serves to make socialists feel all warm and fuzzy. And who gives a shit about that besides them, the true enemies of this country, its future and freedom.

But that's just IT.
The democrats KNOW that illegals give them votes, so that's why they want them here.

Also, it makes about as much sense to compare Rome to the US, as it does to compare Iraq to WWII.

Quoted: I believe that we are more into the dependence stage than anything. Terror, War, Katrina,  Oil, etc....   Who does everyone look towards?   The Government.

Katrina was the real eye opener.  The local government told people to leave.  They didn't.  When the water came the people that came had no plan so they called to the government for help.  The local government had no plan so they called to the state government for help.  The state government had no plan so they called for the federal government to help.  The federal government came in and promised millions and and millions of dollars to help get the people out, move them somewhere else, give them places to live for free, give them financial assistance, and to rebuild their homes.  Then even after all that people are complaining that the government didn't give them enough.

Quoted: Also, it makes about as much sense to compare Rome to the US, as it does to compare Iraq to WWII.

The contest is over, the votes are in.  You, sir, are the KING of non sequiturs.  

Quoted: Ours lived until sometime in the 50s.  Pretty good run while it lasted.  Fuck it, it's over.

It lived til sometime in the 1850's.  The Civil War put a stop to our Republic.

87 years

We're at stage 5.  If it were cancer, we'd be dead already.

I would guess if we last another 10 years without a major incident, we will be very lucky...between infiltration by illegals, the growing threat of islam within our borders, and the biggest enemy within, liberals, democrats, and socialists and there hand puppet the media...we're fooked....

Stock up on ammo now....

IMO were somewhere between 6 and 7. Its only a matter of time before we live in a dictatorship. I think we have a few decades left, no more

I just got this email today too....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

Quoted: I would guess if we last another 10 years without a major incident, we will be very lucky...between infiltration by illegals, the growing threat of islam within our borders, and the biggest enemy within, liberals, democrats, and socialists and there hand puppet the media...we're fooked.... Stock up on ammo now....

Yeah, it is looking like some of us may go down just to get even with the fuckers who are bent on destroyin this nation.

+1 Id rather go that way than be a sheeple and just hang on for the ride. I have a feeling its coming

It's disappointing that so many of us see the road ahead plain as day, we know the answer and yet there is so little we can do to change it.  It's worse if you have kids,  knowing the future is so dim for them.

One of the things that isn't mentioned in the article is the acceptance of behaviors like homosexuality in society.  This liberal acceptance punctuated the end of many civilizations.

Through political correctness, unchecked illegal immigration, conforming to the wishes and cultures of these new illegals and globalization....we're doomed.

For me I think the biggest threat isn't Americans voting themselves money, but lobbyists & corporations buying corporate welfare.

Every American owes $30,000 in goverment debt and most of the spending went to big corporations. Even the majority of farm aid goes to corporations.

it's historic certainty that our "republic" will fall.  We have not been the republic since the end of the CW.  Prior to that, the Legislative branch reigned supreme, after that, we saw (and continue to see) the "imperial Presidency".

we see recently loud calls for the nation to cede it's soveriegn right to police it's borders and regulate immigration.  fact is, we're seeing what the plains indians saw in the 1840s and 50s.

factor in widespread apathy, an aversion to public service by productive elements of society, an aversion by the well off to the same public service, especially the armed forces, and you've got a recipe for a failed nation.  this vaccum is being filled, especially in non military areas, by lower elements of society, and the gov't will become more and more hostile to properous individuals / segments.

I consider it **VITAL** to get a framework built for secession, modeled on so called no-fault divorces.  We're going to have to recognize irreconciliable differences among the varied regions of the "nation" and agree to part ways gracefully.  We are approaching political unviability, within 30 years I think.

It's apparent to me that the "middle states" and the SE are compatible, but the NE and west coast states are more akin to each other.

This will be looked on as a shame in the future, but not nearly as much as another civil war, and I am certain that we'll be **SO** pissed at each other within 30 years that triggers will get pulled.

Quoted: Quoted: I believe that we are more into the dependence stage than anything. Terror, War, Katrina,  Oil, etc....   Who does everyone look towards?   The Government.   Katrina was the real eye opener.  The local government told people to leave.  They didn't.  When the water came the people that came had no plan so they called to the government for help.  The local government had no plan so they called to the state government for help.  The state government had no plan so they called for the federal government to help.  The federal government came in and promised millions and and millions of dollars to help get the people out, move them somewhere else, give them places to live for free, give them financial assistance, and to rebuild their homes.  Then even after all that people are complaining that the government didn't give them enough.

Best summaries yet imo

Excellent thread.  It's amazing that Alexander Tyler could know so much about our current society way back in 1787.  He must have been a time traveler.      

"Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it"

Quoted: For me I think the biggest threat isn't Americans voting themselves money, but lobbyists & corporations buying corporate welfare. Every American owes $30,000 in goverment debt and most of the spending went to big corporations. Even the majority of farm aid goes to corporations.

Of course the money went to "big corporations".    

Aircraft carriers, Nukes, and Bridges are usually built by the "big corporations"    

The money sent to the "big corporations"  goes to the workers and inverstors.  It's a big incestous circle.

The problem is not the evil "big corporation"  It's that we spend to much money on everything.

Quoted: Excellent thread.  It's amazing that Alexander Tyler could know so much about our current society way back in 1787.  He must have been a time traveler.

Perhaps you should look at that link to Snopes.

Life span of a Republic: How Long Do We Have?

It ended in 1865.  The establishment of Federal supremacy vs. State supremacy crushed the ideals of the Founding Fathers.

Talk about a bunch of pessimistic bull shit.  Whine whine whine.  Why don't you get off your butts, organize and make your voices heard.  Moral decay and self defeatism is what kills a civilization.  Patriots don't throw in the towel and play the blame game.  Look in the mirror and blame yourself.  How about some optimism?  Look what a few men accomplished with the formation of the Minutemen down on the border.  They got the ball rolling on immigration control. A few years ago, I buried my Father at Arlington Naitonal Cemetery with full military honors.  In a way it's good he isn't alive to see this kind of pissing and moaning.

Quoted: Talk about a bunch of pessimistic bull shit.  Whine whine whine.  Why don't you get off your butts, organize and make your voices heard.  Moral decay and self defeatism is what kills a civilization.  Patriots don't throw in the towel and play the blame game.  Look in the mirror and blame yourself.  How about some optimism?  Look what a few men accomplished with the formation of the Minutemen down on the border.  They got the ball rolling on immigration control. A few years ago, I buried my Father at Arlington Naitonal Cemetery with full military honors.  In a way it's good he isn't alive to see this kind of pissing and moaning.

Because this problem has gone beyond talking, organizing, etc. This problem is to the point where it can only really be solved by cold steel. The libs dems and socilaists have a strangle hold on the media and the sheep.

You see the BS they put out daily, look at the thread on gunshows....

This problem won't be solved until the proverbial SHTF I'm sad to say...

Believe it or not I saw a little hope left after 9/11, but it has soon faded. When criminals can protest and no one picks them up its over.

Quoted:  fact is, we're seeing what the plains indians saw in the 1840s and 50s. .

Drama Gueen......

Who today is  breaking treaties and promises and killing us and taking our homes?

Any body here have your familes rounded up, march hundreds of miles , comfined to a remote area and been killed off before being returned to a desert?

I am not a Indian rights cry baby, I left the reservations long ago and am living the American dream and paying my way.....but your statement is just a little of the top......really.

Quoted: Quoted: Talk about a bunch of pessimistic bull shit.  Whine whine whine.  Why don't you get off your butts, organize and make your voices heard.  Moral decay and self defeatism is what kills a civilization.  Patriots don't throw in the towel and play the blame game.  Look in the mirror and blame yourself.  How about some optimism?  Look what a few men accomplished with the formation of the Minutemen down on the border.  They got the ball rolling on immigration control. A few years ago, I buried my Father at Arlington Naitonal Cemetery with full military honors.  In a way it's good he isn't alive to see this kind of pissing and moaning. Because this problem has gone beyond talking, organizing, etc. This problem is to the point where it can only really be solved by cold steel. The libs dems and socilaists have a strangle hold on the media and the sheep. You see the BS they put out daily, look at the thread on gunshows.... This problem won't be solved until the proverbial SHTF I'm sad to say...

... I'll take it a step further and go out on a limb by stating that - It is not over, far from it! Sure it could use some improvement, but youth days have it much better than their parents and grandparents did in the past. They're living longer and healthier (if they choose), medical attention is far superior than it was 100 years ago, they have more jobs, better educations and own their own homes.

... This site and Democratic Underground are both busting at the seams with "Chicken Little, the Sky is Falling" types. Fine by me you losers. My future in United States of America is brighter than it ever has been in the past!

... The key to change is the ability to master adaptability to it.

... No, I haven't given up - Au contrare. I'm looking the future of the Country straight the eye and yelling "Bring It On!".

Seems if you get 20 arfcommers who believe the republic is in serious trouble together you'll get 20 opinions on why.

I'll throw in another, when the currency is debased, a civilization declines. Every fiat currency in history has failed in spectacular fashion. The worst of the worst is a fiat currency composed of interst bearing debt instruments as legal tender in payment of debts, since it's a mathematical certainty the system will fail.

For the first time in human history, we have such a system on a global basis.

Entitlements, immigration, social decay, the erosion of state and individual liberty and power, corporatism, aggressive nationalism, these are all problems of course, but they're effects, not causes.

The civil war was very costly for the republic, as was the creeping liberalism of the late 20th century, and of course the new deal, but the critical period was the presidency of Woodrow Wilson.

The federal reserve act was a death sentence for the republic, it's been wasting away ever since.

A poll would be interesting.

<10
10-20
20-30
30-40
50+

I'm thinking it is going to be a spectacular, nuclear end. Nukes are spreading. We  effectively ignore threats outside the Middle East. We leave our border wide open, yet we act very aggressively in the eyes of the rest of the world.

The barbarians had hundreds of miles of defended territory to cross before they could sack Rome. We could have pre-emplaced nukes take out every major city in America with no warning whatsoever. We have no civil defense of any kind.

Alright let's face facts.  Without the Jewish and the black vote (roughly 20%) the far left radicals (dems) could never get elected to a national position again.  People who thought they were electing a conservative president carried the nation by 3 or 4%.  What happens when these second generation legal (read welfare parasites) and current illegal aliens get the right to vote.  And you know damn good and well they will.  There may be as many as 30 million illegals alone.  The dems are courting them and will use our money to buy their votes.  That's a lock.

What about 25 years or so from now when what are now a minority has enough votes to put their own (not dem or rep) man into office?  Anybody for Mexican tonight?

Good grief.

Quoted: A poll would be interesting. <10 10-20 20-30 30-40 50+

Your wish is my command...

I say 50+
But thats only after Bush attains president for life status after the future dirty bomb terrorism incident.
After that martial law will be in effect and all opposition will be silenced. Law and order 2nd amendments rights groups will be co-opted by false sense of patirotism as they support the crack down on opposition groups labled anti american. Some time after  that when the gun rights groups become a threat they too will be declared anti american, their weapons confiscated and carted off to either the war in Iran or disappeared

Quoted: I say 50+ But thats only after Bush attains president for life status after the future dirty bomb terrorism incident. After that martial law will be in effect and all opposition will be silenced. Law and order 2nd amendments rights groups will be co-opted by false sense of patirotism as they support the crack down on opposition groups labled anti american. Some time after  that when the gun rights groups become a threat they too will be declared anti american, their weapons confiscated and carted off to either the war in Iran or disappeared

Ha... I can dig it, but have you seen this?
www.2kgames.com/shatteredunion/home.php

Hey I have to go to bed Im bored an all but its 2 in the morning.
So while im sleeping and you guys flame away with troll and all the other shit.
I believe in molon labe. But sometimes I think its not waht it means
Sometimes its Moron Lobby. Cause a lot of you guys voted for this Piece of crap in office now.
You play along with the labeling that divides this nation. And you all feed from the tit that spews fear.
Yeah Kerry Sucks And hillarys a threat. Wake up and smell the gas ovens people. You bitch about democrats and libertarians. Yet you cant even stand up for 2nd amendment rights and other god given rights.
Nothing in the constitution says a felon cant own a gun. Want to disarm the populace? Make all kinds of new crimes.
Every time I see a post about Kerry or Clinton or socialist communist anti america fill in the blank non republicans. I picture Karl Rove laughing his ass off.
Hey good night. Hope this post puts your panties in a bind

Quoted: One of the things that isn't mentioned in the article is the acceptance of behaviors like homosexuality in society.  This liberal acceptance punctuated the end of many civilizations.

The Romans accepted homosexuality (in a non-open/public display) as acceptable. They did so for over 400 years.

You know what did Rome in after those 400 years? Idiots with too much power.


Homosexuals are the least of our worries. Look towards the middle east and Mexico if you don't believe me.

I'm also a firm believer that we haven't become more amoral... just that we're more open and public about it. People had gay sex back in the 1940s, people were raped and murdered in the 1940s. It just wasn't mentioned on tv/radio EVERY SINGLE FUCKING DAY like it is now.


Instead of worrying how who puts their penis/vagina into what... look to our southern borders. What's brewing down there makes everything else look like a walk on the beach.


Trust me, when Mexicans are voting in liberals by the bucket load 20 years from now, we'll ALL be regretting it.

A system of government is not like a person.
It takes a lot to kill it, many wounds.

Military Reconstruction of the South
Income Tax
World War One
Prohibition
New Deal
Fiat currency
LBJ and his Great Society
War On Drugs (Won't ever end, many rights sacrificed in its name, but no viable solutions)
Kent State
Waco
Ruby Ridge
DUI Checkpoints
War On Terror (Let's be honest here, it won't be ending, ever, and we will only see more freedom eroded in the name of safety.)
War For Safety (no smoking, no red meat, wear your seat belt, wear your helmet, lower speed limits, etc)
Entangling ourselves in foreign affairs
Unchecked illegal immigration

That is my list.
Some are more important, others are less.
But all are cuts on the body of the Constitution.

Quoted: Life span of a Republic: How Long Do We Have? About the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior: "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.  A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.  From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship." "The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years.  During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence: 1.  From bondage to spiritual faith; 2.  From spiritual faith to great courage; 3.  From courage to liberty; 4.  From liberty to abundance; 5.  From abundance to complacency; 6.  From complacency to apathy; 7.  From apathy to dependence; 8.  From dependence back into bondage " Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St.  Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election: Population of counties won by: Gore: 127 million; Bush: 143 million; Square miles of land won by: Gore: 580,000; Bush: 2,427,000 States won by: Gore: 19 Bush: 29 Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore: 13.2 Bush: 2.1 Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens.  Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements living off government welfare..." Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency & apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase. Pass this along to help everyone realize that apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom.

We can last at least another 200yrs...

I agree that we are in serious danger  here.  Our country won't die in a day but the apathy has to end. I E-mailed my Senators have you? I told them it needs to be a felony to tresspass the U.S. border. If they vote less than that they are out! For hell sakes folks if we change a gun stock we can be a felon. Not only will I not vote for them I will no longer even vote for that party. Let them know!!

I have disagreements with DR. .308 on religion. But I am with him 100%on his post here.
We need to start seriously pressing our govt on the issues he mentioned. We could start by repaeling the ammendment that gave the States Legislature's responsibility to Choose its Senators to the Public. There is no one to represent the"State" any more. We have got to get rid of the Democracy and go back to the Republic. It won't take "cold steel" if we can get off our ass! Talk to 5 friends and get them off their ass, call, write, e-mail or whatever, to your politicians and tell them illegal immigration is a felony! And I won't vote for a party that thinks other wise.

FOLKS THERE IS NO SILENT MAJORITY!!!! IF YOU ARE SILENT YOU ARE NOT!!!!

Talk to 5 friends and get them off their ass, call, write, e-mail or whatever

Doesnt work they go back to sitting on there ass as soon as you leave

My bets are that we are at number 7.