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Posted: 3/26/2006 8:24:44 PM EDT
Say an E6 gets in a heated argument at a bar regarding something at the command with an O4. Argument gets face into face and ends up physical. E6 gets tossed from bar as it seems he is the aggressor. Many junior guys witness event and said E6 is up for E7 selection and made command "person of the year". And what if E6 is a dickhead with a big ego and thinks he is bullet proof since he's high year tenure and if doesnt select for E7 is gone in six months. What should be done to both parties if anything?

Not that any of this happened to anyone I know or work with
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:31:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 8:33:00 PM EDT by Shadowhawk]
04 should get non-punitive letter of caution.

E6 should get reccomendation for advancement withdrawn and be forced out for HYT.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:34:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Valkyrie:
Say an E6 gets in a heated argument at a bar regarding something at the command with an O4. Argument gets face into face and ends up physical. E6 gets tossed from bar as it seems he is the aggressor. Many junior guys witness event and said E6 is up for E7 selection and made command "person of the year". And what if E6 is a dickhead with a big ego and thinks he is bullet proof since he's high year tenure and if doesnt select for E7 is gone in six months. What should be done to both parties if anything?

Not that any of this happened to anyone I know or work with



Thats a sticky one. Shouldn't have been talking shop at the bar and it never would have happened. How many years does the First Class have? If he is about to hit 20 in six months (not sure what Navy HYT for E-6 is) screw him, but if he is not going to get 20 thats a whole different problem. If he's not going to be able to retire if his E-7 doesn't come through thats a harsh punishment for one screwup. Sounds like he needs the crap scared out of him by his CO, and some medium level of punishment/administrative action to make sure he doesn't forget it.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:43:57 PM EDT


Okay, so an E-6 "got physical" with an O-4? As in, assaulting superior officer, alcohol related, in bar?

And this incident has witnesses, ie. junior enlisted in the unit?

Everybody in the unit heard about this one five minutes after it happened.

Answer's kind of obvious, you ask me.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:44:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Chairborne:

Originally Posted By Valkyrie:
Say an E6 gets in a heated argument at a bar regarding something at the command with an O4. Argument gets face into face and ends up physical. E6 gets tossed from bar as it seems he is the aggressor. Many junior guys witness event and said E6 is up for E7 selection and made command "person of the year". And what if E6 is a dickhead with a big ego and thinks he is bullet proof since he's high year tenure and if doesnt select for E7 is gone in six months. What should be done to both parties if anything?

Not that any of this happened to anyone I know or work with



Thats a sticky one. Shouldn't have been talking shop at the bar and it never would have happened. How many years does the First Class have? If he is about to hit 20 in six months (not sure what Navy HYT for E-6 is) screw him, but if he is not going to get 20 thats a whole different problem. If he's not going to be able to retire if his E-7 doesn't come through thats a harsh punishment for one screwup. Sounds like he needs the crap scared out of him by his CO, and some medium level of punishment/administrative action to make sure he doesn't forget it.



E6 is in a position where he is able to create his own little kingdom and due to the rules there's not much that can be done. This little kingdom has caused some distress in said command and E6 is unwilling to change his realm to help get flyers in the pipeline. It is a bone of contention with many in the command both officer and enlisted. E6 has been confrontational on two other occasions that I have been witness to.

I dont know much of anything but this behaviour puts a bad light on the aircrew community in my command.. We already are looked upon as premadonnas that get special treatment, etc. That said E6 is up for E7 and nominated as sailor of the year doesnt make the whole bunch look silly..


IMO, E6 should be counseled, removed from all collateral duty and designated positions in command, the E7 board notified and he retire and just go away. The O4... Reprimanded for sure but he's a good officer and his argument is valid. But he could have walked away.. I'm stuck on this part..
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:46:00 PM EDT
Off the top of my head commentary. Really not enough data to be too specific.

Most Os are taught that you should avoid getting in situations with enlisted that may become physical. that's nice in theory but can be dificult in parctice. And it can get really tough in a Reserve Unit situation. That said both are old enough and have rank and time in enough that they should know better than to get in a fracas at a bar. Both should Know better than to be getting so drunk as to lose control. One or the other should have walked away much before it got to that point.

Both may get Art 15 Captains Masts, the E-6 may easily have violated Articles 88 and 89, and could easily be facing a Court.

And if the Command ignores it, not only does it ruin credibility, but leads to further in discipline, if you didn't punish them for that, how can you punich me for something less? etc etc. So the Command is almost bound to pursue it as a serious matter.

IIRC you are in a Naval Air Reserve situation and that really muddies the waters as the line as to when the UCMJ applies and what articles may be applicable during drills, ATs etc.

They both fucked up good and probably at the minimum will be retiring at their current ranks.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:48:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PaDanby:
Off the top of my head commentary. Really not enough data to be too specific.

Most Os are taught that you should avoid getting in situations with enlisted that may become physical. that's nice in theory but can be dificult in parctice. And it can get really tough in a Reserve Unit situation. That said both are old enough and have rank and time in enough that they should know better than to get in a fracas at a bar. Both should Know better than to be getting so drunk as to lose control. One or the other should have walked away much before it got to that point.

Both may get Art 15 Captains Masts, the E-6 may easily have violated Articles 88 and 89, and could easily be facing a Court.

And if the Command ignores it, not only does it ruin credibility, but leads to further in discipline, if you didn't punish them for that, how can you punich me for something less? etc etc. So the Command is almost bound to pursue it as a serious matter.

IIRC you are in a Naval Air Reserve situation and that really muddies the waters as the line as to when the UCMJ applies and what articles may be applicable during drills, ATs etc.

They both fucked up good and probably at the minimum will be retiring at their current ranks.



These are both FTS sailors..
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:49:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Valkyrie:

Originally Posted By Chairborne:

Originally Posted By Valkyrie:
Say an E6 gets in a heated argument at a bar regarding something at the command with an O4. Argument gets face into face and ends up physical. E6 gets tossed from bar as it seems he is the aggressor. Many junior guys witness event and said E6 is up for E7 selection and made command "person of the year". And what if E6 is a dickhead with a big ego and thinks he is bullet proof since he's high year tenure and if doesnt select for E7 is gone in six months. What should be done to both parties if anything?

Not that any of this happened to anyone I know or work with



Thats a sticky one. Shouldn't have been talking shop at the bar and it never would have happened. How many years does the First Class have? If he is about to hit 20 in six months (not sure what Navy HYT for E-6 is) screw him, but if he is not going to get 20 thats a whole different problem. If he's not going to be able to retire if his E-7 doesn't come through thats a harsh punishment for one screwup. Sounds like he needs the crap scared out of him by his CO, and some medium level of punishment/administrative action to make sure he doesn't forget it.



E6 is in a position where he is able to create his own little kingdom and due to the rules there's not much that can be done. This little kingdom has caused some distress in said command and E6 is unwilling to change his realm to help get flyers in the pipeline. It is a bone of contention with many in the command both officer and enlisted. E6 has been confrontational on two other occasions that I have been witness to.

I dont know much of anything but this behaviour puts a bad light on the aircrew community in my command.. We already are looked upon as premadonnas that get special treatment, etc. That said E6 is up for E7 and nominated as sailor of the year doesnt make the whole bunch look silly..


IMO, E6 should be counseled, removed from all collateral duty and designated positions in command, the E7 board notified and he retire and just go away. The O4... Reprimanded for sure but he's a good officer and his argument is valid. But he could have walked away.. I'm stuck on this part..



If the E-6 is retirement eligible, thats it for him. I can't even imagine "kingdom building" from an E-6 (my rank, btw). I have my own little cult following, but not a "kingdom" . I've seen some pretty ugly O-E arguments off duty, but none that ended up physical. That's just plain uncalled for, but the instigator should pay most of the price. Your options sound on the mark to me. Some people will say the 0-4 is getting off easy, but thats tough to say without knowing details.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 9:01:32 PM EDT
Oh, you guys are correct the whole command knows about it already and it happened on a current deployment!
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 9:14:22 PM EDT
In that case my next question is-when the O running the investigation finds out it is being gossiped about on ARFcom what happens to you?
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 9:15:25 PM EDT
Well, let's see, I need more info.

Is the Enlisted guy an E-6 or a First Class Petty Officer?

Is the 0-4 a passed over brain dead El-Kadar who is on his 8th department head tour and will never screen for XO/CO or is he a hard-charging frocked LCDR who has his JOPA patch in his back pocket.

These questions need to be answered first.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 9:16:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Valkyrie:

.......E6 is in a position where he is able to create his own little kingdom and due to the rules there's not much that can be done. This little kingdom has caused some distress in said command Not enough "distress" it seems since the CO has let it go this far and E6 is unwilling to change his realm to help get flyers in the pipeline. Sounds like it is time for the CO to start acting like one It is a bone of contention with many in the command both officer and enlisted. E6 has been confrontational on two other occasions that I have been witness to.





Sounds like the CO trained at the UN School of Ignoring. Bad things happen when problems are ignored and left to themselves.

Link Posted: 3/26/2006 9:40:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 9:41:02 PM EDT by voilsb]
Unless "E-6" refers to "Staff Sergeant" and "O-4" refers to "Major" (which they don't, since it's Navy), then I recommend a change of service to one where E6 = SSG and O4 = MAJ.


Link Posted: 3/26/2006 9:43:07 PM EDT
If theyre both drunk itll be swept under the rug.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 9:50:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 9:51:54 PM EDT by dugedug]

Originally Posted By CharlieR:
In that case my next question is-when the O running the investigation finds out it is being gossiped about on ARFcom what happens to you?



+1 billion

You should know better. Let your local OSI/JAG handle this.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 10:17:36 PM EDT
No names or anything specific. Its a big Navy.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 10:39:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Valkyrie:
No names or anything specific. Its a big Navy.



No shit, not like you are airing any really dirty laundy, of the 500K of you guys, it might just be two somebody knows, or not.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 10:58:05 PM EDT
Never seen an argument between "O"s and "E"s in a bar, myself. Our BC (Battery Commander) once came out to the bar we all hung out at, and when he stopped to say hello, even though we were all drunk as hell, we all snapped (struggled, I should say) to attention as soon as we recognized him.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:46:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 11:46:27 PM EDT by Alaskanmoosehunter]
Well it all goes back too..........

You fuck-up, you move up or shit floats to the top.

O-4 (Maj) would then be your new O-5 and the E-6 (SSG) would get a fuck-up award submitted in his DA packet and be selected to E-7 (SFC) and be your platoon daddy.

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