I highly urge anyone with even a passing interest in this topic to buy and read, "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades" by Robert Spencer.  I am reading it now - what an eye opener!  It uses the Quran and other Islamic texts to explain what Islam is all about and the history of the religion.  With the continuing rise in Islamic fundamentalism, everyone should be aware of what Islam is about and how it WILL influence events in the future.

I bought it from amazon.com.  Buy it - read it!

Quoted: Quoted: Again, I will say that terrorism, the war on terror, fundamentalist islam, and everything else that all of you are talking about has little to nothing to do with religion. It is natural resources, economics, and politics that have caused all of the above. In that order. Religion, religious ethics, and culture are little more than sociological reactions to those forces anyway Out of the mouth of one of my socialist frat brothers.  All I could do was shake my head.  So other than ignore him, how should I relpy?  I know all that jazz about fighting on the internet, but he is the type that talks a mad game on the internet.  What would you say to that?  If it's good, I may just cut and paste. UH , first off dont listen to anything Premed-gunner says, he's a known troll and another "rebelgray" wannabe. You know a POST 9-11 Muslim convert who does it just to be "different" and cool and a rebel without a clue. Although no Jews never did anything to him suddenly because he converted to islam he decides to hate jews cause they stole "his" peoples land

No, I dislike Israeli Jews because they take the term "God's chosen people" and use it to justify any of their actions against Goyim; if a Jew puts the greater good above his ethnicity, he is fine in my book.

I don't view them(Palestineans,Iraqis,etc.) as "my people" any more than I view any impovished group of oppressed people as "my people", besides the fact that we share the same faith. I cannot eliminate the fact that I am a White,middle-class American from a Christian background. I hate what my fellow believers in Islam are doing in the name of Allah, but I truly find this religion to be the best choice, for me atleast.

FILL THEM IN FOR THEM! tell them historical truths about Islam and her Imperialist history. Tell them about the current (last 100 years) state of affairs (Thailand, Philpines, Sudan, Nigeria, Chechnia, Kashmir, Pakistan, Indonesia, Isreal, Lebanon, Turkey, Bosnia, Kosovo, Mauratania, Aremenia, Greece, Cyprus, Egypt,Iran etc fucking etc.) Of course you must know about each of these countries and the atrocities being committed against the "infidels" there. Belive me the histiry of atroicities is an encyclopedia in itself.

Same for Christianity, Judaism, and Atheism. I am not going to even say it is wrong anymore, nothing will get it through your skull; so I will just say that I support Islam gaining control over this world by any means necessary, provided it abides with the Sunnah, since that is what you want to hear.

In fact Once you know "a lot of the facts" I dont think it's possable to know all the incidents they are too many, telling people the truth is real easy. Even Muslims when confronted with these truths end up reverting to lame tactics to excuse it, like "moral equivalency", ad hominem, circular arguements etc.

I think it is quite simple: declare war on Muslims, Muslims will declare war on you and your allies. Muhammad himself did not scourge across the Middle East, killing everything he saw; by the end of his life, they pretty much had just unified what is modern day Saudi Arabia, Oman,UAE, Kuwait, and a couple other small modern day countries that were complete desert at the time. Of course, what started when Muhammad started preaching has continued on till today.

difference between Christian and Muslim ethos is: Christians are supposed to fight violence with peace and understanding, Muslims are supposed to go an eye for an eye.

Quoted: I think it is quite simple: declare war on Muslims, Muslims will declare war on you and your allies. Muhammad himself did not scourge across the Middle East, killing everything he saw; by the end of his life, they pretty much had just unified what is modern day Saudi Arabia, Oman,UAE, Kuwait, and a couple other small modern day countries that were complete desert at the time. Of course, what started when Muhammad started preaching has continued on till today. difference between Christian and Muslim ethos is: Christians are supposed to fight violence with peace and understanding, Muslims are supposed to go an eye for an eye.

Hmmm, methinks you got that wrong....islam declared war on everyone the day muhammad received his "visions"...and has been at war ever since.

muslims declared war long ago...and made extra sure of that point on 9/11...

Quoted: Quoted: Well, when a man (Bin Laden) hates us, and sites our presence in his "Holy Land" as the cheif reason, and when the people fighting us yell "Allah Akbar" (Allah is great), I think it's pretty simple as to whats at the root of it all.   God is a major part of Arabic culture, and praising God, thanking Him, asking for His assistance, are common parts of Arabic speech, even among non-Muslims. So is Islam. When the people who are committing suicide bombings are brought up in Madrasses (Islamic religious schools) believing that, according to their holy book - the Koran, they will sit at the right hand of god and get to bang 72 virgins in heaven if they kill infadels (people of other religions), I think it just strengthens the case that religion is at least an important factor in terrorism.   Man, I sure wish I could find where my 72 virgins are promised for killing infidels, I would sign right up... oh wait, there aren't any promised, my bad. We've been over this already; there are indeed virgins promised by muslim religious leaders. After all, we don't see Christians or Budists commiting suicide bombings screaming "Praise Jesus!" or "Budda is Great!" -K Because Western culture is incredibly secular, and mentioning God is usually reserved for very few cases in public speaking, as compared Arabic society as I mentioned. Buddhists don't believe in a god, and don't really worship anything... technically Buddhism isn't a religion, it is a way of thought(which is why you can be both Christian and Buddhist). You can't be Christian and Buddhist, you dumbass. They're mutually exclusive. If you knew anything about either religion you would see that they're incompatible.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, when a man (Bin Laden) hates us, and sites our presence in his "Holy Land" as the cheif reason, and when the people fighting us yell "Allah Akbar" (Allah is great), I think it's pretty simple as to whats at the root of it all.   God is a major part of Arabic culture, and praising God, thanking Him, asking for His assistance, are common parts of Arabic speech, even among non-Muslims. So is Islam. but this part of Arabic culture was around for a looong time, back since the Arabs were mainly pagans. When the people who are committing suicide bombings are brought up in Madrasses (Islamic religious schools) believing that, according to their holy book - the Koran, they will sit at the right hand of god and get to bang 72 virgins in heaven if they kill infadels (people of other religions), I think it just strengthens the case that religion is at least an important factor in terrorism.   Man, I sure wish I could find where my 72 virgins are promised for killing infidels, I would sign right up... oh wait, there aren't any promised, my bad. We've been over this already; there are indeed virgins promised by muslim religious leaders. Yeah, but such promises are empty and only believed by those who are ignorant. After all, we don't see Christians or Budists commiting suicide bombings screaming "Praise Jesus!" or "Budda is Great!" -K Because Western culture is incredibly secular, and mentioning God is usually reserved for very few cases in public speaking, as compared Arabic society as I mentioned. Buddhists don't believe in a god, and don't really worship anything... technically Buddhism isn't a religion, it is a way of thought(which is why you can be both Christian and Buddhist). You can't be Christian and Buddhist, you dumbass. They're mutually exclusive. If you knew anything about either religion you would see that they're incompatible. How so, there is nothing in Buddhism that is blatantly anti-Christian, and I know quite a few Christians who are also Buddhists. Buddhism isn't a religion as I have said, there is no worship, just recognizing the emptiness of this life and the turmoil that giving into carnal desires brings upon oneself.

HA! soooooo ironic.
look at this: I said

Even Muslims when confronted with these truths end up reverting to lame tactics to excuse it, like "moral equivalency", ad hominem, circular arguements etc.

Then pre-medgunner in his very same post writes about this,

Same for Christianity, Judaism, and Atheism.

he uses moral equvalency all the time, the weakest arguement on the planet. It's like saying, "so what if i am a rapist?? other people rape too! so that makes it OK"
Never mind the fact that he includes in his statment Judaism and Atheism.
I've never heard of Athesists chopping off people heads cause someone "belived in God." (and no Communism does'nt count, They killed for economic reasons and even then it was'nt for 1400 years!)
Oh yeah and jews too! They own land the size of New Jersey yet they are "world imperialists"! Next thing you know they are going to invade rhode island! does their world domination know no bounds!???

then there is this fountain of logic:

No, I dislike Israeli Jews because they take the term "God's chosen people" and use it to justify any of their actions against Goyim;

No you got that wrong, It's the Muslims that do that. Except they call'em infidels and Dhimmi not goyim. If the Isrealis were as blood thirsty as you say why did'nt they in 1948 basically "cleanse" all of Isreal and make it 100% Jewish? Why did'nt they kick out both the muslims AND the Christians and Druze?? Yet in most Islamic countries they have manged to kill off almost ALL the relgious minorities, but thats because they are the "religion of tolerance" i guess.

More stupidity follows:

Muhammad himself did not scourge across the Middle East, killing everything he saw; by the end of his life, they pretty much had just unified what is modern day Saudi Arabia, Oman,UAE, Kuwait, and a couple other small modern day countries that were complete desert at the time

No, he did'nt kill all he saw, unless you forced him to! You choice was easy, convert (volutarily ), leave, die or if you were'nt a pagan you could become a second class Dhimmi subject, who paid the Jizzbag tax. What a fucking humanitarian, right?
As to "uniting the Arabian pennensula"?! Well to quote Spock talking to Kahn , "like a team
dogs under one whip?"
The finally idiocy:

countries that were complete desert at the time

i gotz news for ya, they ARE STILL deserts! any wealth they have now is not from hard work but from the pure luck of geology.

I don't view them(Palestineans,Iraqis,etc.) as "my people" any more than I view any impovished group of oppressed people as "my people", besides the fact that we share the same faith.

Rubbish. Prove it. How do you feel about Checnia, Kosovo, Armenia, East dilli, Kashmir, Sudan and Cyprus?? I bet you dollars to doughnuts you tow the "muslim line" in all those cases. or do you even know about them? I think most preverts to Islam tend to over look it's oppressions of other people around the world.

Quoted: Out of the mouth of one of my socialist frat brothers.  All I could do was shake my head.  So other than ignore him, how should I relpy?  I know all that jazz about fighting on the internet, but he is the type that talks a mad game on the internet.  What would you say to that?  If it's good, I may just cut and paste.

first of all, don't just cut and paste someone else's ideas, use your own words.

If some Aztec blood cult were running around cutting people's hearts out, would we say religion had nothing to do with it? Did religion have nothing to do with the Jim Jones mass suicide? Local culture, politics, economics, personal problems, all these other things he talks about can have a role to play in group violence too, sometimes they can overshadow religion. But to cut religion out of the picture entirely (especially in the case of Islamic terrorists) is simply being in denial.

Quoted: HA! soooooo ironic. look at this: I said Even Muslims when confronted with these truths end up reverting to lame tactics to excuse it, like "moral equivalency", ad hominem, circular arguements etc. Then pre-medgunner in his very same post writes about this, Same for Christianity, Judaism, and Atheism. he uses moral equvalency all the time, the weakest arguement on the planet. It's like saying, "so what if i am a rapist?? other people rape too! so that makes it OK" Never mind the fact that he includes in his statment Judaism and Atheism. I've never heard of Athesists chopping off people heads cause someone "belived in God." (and no Communism does'nt count, They killed for economic reasons and even then it was'nt for 1400 years!) Oh yeah and jews too! They own land the size of New Jersey yet they are "world imperialists"! Next thing you know they are going to invade rhode island! does their world domination know no bounds!??? then there is this fountain of logic: No, I dislike Israeli Jews because they take the term "God's chosen people" and use it to justify any of their actions against Goyim; No you got that wrong, It's the Muslims that do that. Except they call'em infidels and Dhimmi not goyim. If the Isrealis were as blood thirsty as you say why did'nt they in 1948 basically "cleanse" all of Isreal and make it 100% Jewish? Why did'nt they kick out both the muslims AND the Christians and Druze?? Yet in most Islamic countries they have manged to kill off almost ALL the relgious minorities, but thats because they are the "religion of tolerance" i guess. More stupidity follows: Muhammad himself did not scourge across the Middle East, killing everything he saw; by the end of his life, they pretty much had just unified what is modern day Saudi Arabia, Oman,UAE, Kuwait, and a couple other small modern day countries that were complete desert at the time No, he did'nt kill all he saw, unless you forced him to! You choice was easy, convert (volutarily ), leave, die or if you were'nt a pagan you could become a second class Dhimmi subject, who paid the Jizzbag tax. What a fucking humanitarian, right? As to "uniting the Arabian pennensula"?! Well to quote Spock talking to Kahn , "like a team dogs under one whip?" The finally idiocy: countries that were complete desert at the time i gotz news for ya, they ARE STILL deserts! any wealth they have now is not from hard work but from the pure luck of geology. I don't view them(Palestineans,Iraqis,etc.) as "my people" any more than I view any impovished group of oppressed people as "my people", besides the fact that we share the same faith. Rubbish. Prove it. How do you feel about Checnia, Kosovo, Armenia, East dilli, Kashmir, Sudan and Cyprus?? I bet you dollars to doughnuts you tow the "muslim line" in all those cases. or do you even know about them? I think most preverts to Islam tend to over look it's oppressions of other people around the world.

Ehh, save your breath...Premed won't address real or valid points....he just gives the muslim party line for non-believers....

Quoted: No, I dislike Israeli Jews because they take the term "God's chosen people" and use it to justify any of their actions against Goyim; if a Jew puts the greater good above his ethnicity, he is fine in my book.

Ethnicity??  Where did that come in to this?? You're saying this is all about race?  So you're actually a racist, as opposed to being religiously opposed to Judaism? Which is it?  Both? The hilarious thing is, you're actually a white, middle class, unoppressed, recently converted "muslim" that thinks he hates Israelis for kicking the shit out of a bunch of stone age middle easterners every time they tried an attack while in reality you just haven't "found" yourself yet (my humble assesment) and you've been self-brainwashed by a strange desire to rebel in your own unique way. I bet your parents are just tickled shitless with your current mindset. Is that who you're trying to punish?

And you're pre-med??  I'd hate to be the first Israeli (Jew) you ever treat.

Quoted: HA! soooooo ironic. look at this: I said Even Muslims when confronted with these truths end up reverting to lame tactics to excuse it, like "moral equivalency", ad hominem, circular arguements etc. Then pre-medgunner in his very same post writes about this, Same for Christianity, Judaism, and Atheism. he uses moral equvalency all the time, the weakest arguement on the planet. It's like saying, "so what if i am a rapist?? other people rape too! so that makes it OK" Never mind the fact that he includes in his statment Judaism and Atheism.

Killing people is inherent in almost all ideologies; it doesn't make it right, but it certainly hints that there is something other than just the religion someone follows that leads to violence... like, for example, the fact that scientifically humans are little more than the common beast, we just have a larger brain that allows us to find better reasons to kill people(in addition to scientific and artistic endeavors).

I've never heard of Athesists chopping off people heads cause someone "belived in God." (and no Communism does'nt count, They killed for economic reasons and even then it was'nt for 1400 years!)

Yeah, Chairman Mao killed off over 40 million people for economic reasons... when killing those people put China into the ground even further than it was already in terms of self-sustenance and financial superiority.

Oh yeah and jews too! They own land the size of New Jersey yet they are "world imperialists"! Next thing you know they are going to invade rhode island! does their world domination know no bounds!???

They aren't imperialists, they are just tribal, violent people, like the rest of the whole damn group of races from the Middle East.

then there is this fountain of logic: No, I dislike Israeli Jews because they take the term "God's chosen people" and use it to justify any of their actions against Goyim; No you got that wrong, It's the Muslims that do that. Except they call'em infidels and Dhimmi not goyim. If the Isrealis were as blood thirsty as you say why did'nt they in 1948 basically "cleanse" all of Isreal and make it 100% Jewish? Why did'nt they kick out both the muslims AND the Christians and Druze?? Yet in most Islamic countries they have manged to kill off almost ALL the relgious minorities, but thats because they are the "religion of tolerance" i guess.

Uhm... apparently you missed your history on the attempt to ethnically cleanse "Palestine" of Arabs so they could set up their homeland; the Jews gained their land through killing people who got in their way and using the world's pity and guilt.

More stupidity follows: Muhammad himself did not scourge across the Middle East, killing everything he saw; by the end of his life, they pretty much had just unified what is modern day Saudi Arabia, Oman,UAE, Kuwait, and a couple other small modern day countries that were complete desert at the time No, he did'nt kill all he saw, unless you forced him to! You choice was easy, convert (volutarily ), leave, die or if you were'nt a pagan you could become a second class Dhimmi subject, who paid the Jizzbag tax. What a fucking humanitarian, right?

They spared those who were not involved in the conflict, and to the victor goes the spoils. People here are judging Islam entirely on a religious basis, when Islam is more than that: a way of life, a government,etc. Islamic lands did exactly what any government does, levy taxes on its subjects. Levy the Jizya on non-Muslims because non-Muslims cannot give Zakat according to Islamic doctrine.

As to "uniting the Arabian pennensula"?! Well to quote Spock talking to Kahn , "like a team dogs under one whip?" The finally idiocy: countries that were complete desert at the time i gotz news for ya, they ARE STILL deserts! any wealth they have now is not from hard work but from the pure luck of geology.

The point is: it doesn't take much to conquer a bunch of desert without a lot of people; people here want to make it sound like Muhammad butchered hundreds of thousands of people in his "quest for glory".

I don't view them(Palestineans,Iraqis,etc.) as "my people" any more than I view any impovished group of oppressed people as "my people", besides the fact that we share the same faith. Rubbish. Prove it. How do you feel about Checnia, Kosovo, Armenia, East dilli, Kashmir, Sudan and Cyprus?? I bet you dollars to doughnuts you tow the "muslim line" in all those cases. or do you even know about them? I think most preverts to Islam tend to over look it's oppressions of other people around the world.

Chechnya is a majority Muslim province, I believe that since Russia is a democracy that the people in Chechnya have the right to gain their independence if it under the popular vote of the people in the province.

Kosovo, I couldn't give a damn about the Armenians, they brought a lot of the problem onto themselves. The Armenians, as a group, ARE a bunch of terrorists and they were invading a sovereign country via illegal channels(most of them in Kosovo were illegal immigrants). I feel angry about the women and children killed, but Armenians did the same against the Serbs; they can both burn.

Kashmir is a bloodbath; two different groups of people from two different countries trying to fight over a province that is worthless. Both sides are at blame here, and I only support the Muslims in their fight slightly more than the Hindus because I am a Muslim, they definitely don't have my full support though.

Sudan: Muslims killing other Muslims over racial tensions; fail to see what part religion has in this fight.

Quoted: Ethnicity??  Where did that come in to this?? You're saying this is all about race?  So you're actually a racist, as opposed to being religiously opposed to Judaism? Which is it?  Both?

Jews made this about race in the first place. They specifically wanted Israel because it is their "racial" homeland, and even today the main goal is to keep the state majority Jewish.

The hilarious thing is, you're actually a white, middle class, unoppressed, recently converted "muslim" that thinks he hates Israelis for kicking the shit out of a bunch of stone age middle easterners every time they tried an attack while in reality you just haven't "found" yourself yet (my humble assesment) and you've been self-brainwashed by a strange desire to rebel in your own unique way. I bet your parents are just tickled shitless with your current mindset. Is that who you're trying to punish?

I hate Israelis because of the way they got their land, and how they constantly use the fact that they are Jews to overturn any conversation that might actually show that they are partly to blame for this whole mess(Just like the Arabs, the whole region has a clusterfuck of a culture). My parents are lapsed Christians, they really couldn't care less about my choice in religion.

And you're pre-med??  I'd hate to be the first Israeli (Jew) you ever treat.

I treat all individuals equally, I am only biased against groups as a whole.

Alright.

This has to stop NOW before I get any more creeped out.

I found myself saying that both Pre-Med and t-Sox made some intelligent points.

I have been showering for the last 2 hours, but I still feel unclean...........