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Posted: 8/16/2001 1:41:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2001 1:40:37 PM EDT by Scarecrow]
Which is better? I have heard that short AR's tend to be inaccurate and very unreliable, and I haven’t heard anything bad about the MP5 other then price. Which is truly superior? [img]http://www.hkpro.com/image/mp5a2.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.theshootingedge.com/tse/catalog/rifles/image/dpms7.5-3.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 1:45:23 PM EDT
Haven't shot an M16 shorty, but I have shot an MP5. LOVED IT!!!!!!!!! To me, a sub gun SHOULD be pistol caliber. Hmmmmmm....lemme think.....OK - I'll take one of each.
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 1:49:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 1:53:06 PM EDT
Thats like asking if you would like a free red Corvette or a free black Corvette. I don't care I can't lose![):)]
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 1:55:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 1:59:52 PM EDT
I'll take the MP5. Then I will sell it, buy an M16, several uppers, optics, mags, and ammo with the money. [:P] I am kinda bored with 9mm's
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 2:08:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 2:13:12 PM EDT
Again, it depends on what you have the gun for. As far as I am concerned (been using MP5s since the early 80s), the only thing they have in common is the they are compact, have about the same rate of fire, and mag capacity! A 9mm is a'pistol/SMG' ctg, but does have its place. The MP5 is a great weapon, I would take devestating effect of the 5.56mm ctg with its extended range and true accuracy anyday, over a 9mm rd.
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 2:38:04 PM EDT
I meant for CQB, like SWAT.
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 3:08:05 PM EDT
The AR is a less desirable chose performance wise if you compare it to full sized AR's. It would be poorly suited for military, FMJ, ammo however, Troy can tell you about the 2700 fps mininum effective speed for the projectile. However if ather ammo, softpoint or hollowpoints are used acceptable performance may be possible at lower velocity. With a short barrel you might have an excessive flash when the weapon is fired, this might be bad in CQB, you could burn a friendly. Why not use an M4 upper, it is handy and has a barrel that is long enough for good ammo performance?? If you must have a SMG sized weapon, how about a ZM weapons AR with a stock folded in, or a short barreled bullpup type weapon. Of course a Thompson SMG is mighty nice if you aren't worried about cost. There is also an MP-5'ish sized .223 from H+K the model number escapes me right now. An MP-5/10 would also be nice, 10mm SMG, and there is a .224 BOZ (10mm saboted round) variation for defeating bullet resistant vests. Truly if the target isn't wearing armor either MP-5 or SBR AR will get the job done. If armor is worn the SBR AR will be able to defeat it the MP-5 operator will just have to aim higher.
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 3:44:42 PM EDT
just male sure to use a sound suppresor on that short m16 223 in a confined space has got to be brutal on the noise level
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 3:48:03 PM EDT
For strictly building clearing, I'd probably go with the MP5. .223 has some significant advantages over 9mm, but the longer barrel of the MP5 gives you more velocity than the same rounds from a handgun. And, touching off a short-barrelled .223 inside a building is EXCITING, to say the least! You could easily end up with a blow eardrum if someone touched one off just behind you. Not to mention the impressive flame from a short barrel. For tight quarters in buildings, MP5. For almost anything else, AR.
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 4:00:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2001 3:57:06 PM EDT by drfcolt]
Size of an M4, sounds like a 22LR, zero muzzle-flash, power of a 5.56MM: [url]albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=258760&a=7202094&p=52238564[/url]
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 5:32:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: There is also an MP-5'ish sized .223 from H+K the model number escapes me right now. An MP-5/10 would also be nice, 10mm SMG, and there is a .224 BOZ (10mm saboted round) variation for defeating bullet resistant vests. The HK 53. I have a 93 right now that I am considering doing as a SBR 53, sear ready. I don't have a sear, but I do know people with them. The 53 seems like a better weapon to compare to a micro-CAR style AR15/M16. 8 3/4" barrel and no problems with reliability because there is no gas system. http://www.heckler-koch.de/html/english/behoerden/03_rifles/03_05_index.html
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 5:41:28 PM EDT
Yup, just threw out the HK-53, it would also seem to be a good choice if you were already trained/familiar with the MP-5, or if you were looking at adding a SMG sized gun to a team that was going to keep at least some MP-5's.
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 5:49:38 PM EDT
5.56 RULES!
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 5:59:44 PM EDT
I don't think either one is really [i]superior[/i]. They're different tools and each has its pro's and con's compared to the other and in different situations. On the noise of the short M16 though...that [i]can[/i] be a benefit. People dislike the short M16 because of the noise, but If you are using it, you know what to expect and can prepare accordingly (moderate ear protection to protect from extreme sound pressure levels but moderate enough to hear commands, warnings, etc). The enemy, OTOH may not be so prepared and the noise will be very disorienting and frightening. Nothing like the show (or sound) of overwhelming firepower to intimidate the enemy. Of course, since I like the HK roller locked system and the extra punch of the .223, I upped it an extra notch for myself. I got an HK51A3 - basicly an MP5 in .308 [img]wsphotofews.excite.com/014/BT/GX/Qa/uY49944.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 6:04:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2001 6:21:08 PM EDT by AFARR]
Yes, the comparison is not quite equal--compare the HK 53 to the shorty Colt-- HK 53: [img]http://www.hkpro.com/image/HK53A3left.jpg[/img] or compare the Colt 9mm to the MP-5: [img]http://www.colt.com/colt/assets/images/a2f24_submachine.gif[/img] I understand that there are some definite pro's to the Colt 9mm gun--including familiarity with the controls, easily available parts, etc, and the gun IS reliable with real Colt mags--they reportedly have a tendancy to be finicky with aftermarket mags/converted UZI mags/non-Colt mag blocks. AFARR
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 6:39:36 PM EDT
I hate those MP5 things. One of the reason I hate them so much it the Goverment thugs can have them and use them but I cant. Six
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 7:13:32 PM EDT
I had the pleasure of shooting both in 9mm through a friend of a friend in MO with a Class III license. I liked the MP5 better by far, just due to the extra bulk of the AR version. I guess I would pick the MP5 for a 9mm. As far as .223 version, better for targets with body armor or if I was in the military or something, either the G36C or M4 would be good I guess. Haven't shot either one, so wouldn't know :) themao [chainsawkill]
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 8:51:52 PM EDT
Funny this topic should come up now: I'm presently putting together a package of studies done by various agencies and organizations that I got from Gunsite for a friend that shows the .223 soft or hollow point round has less penetration, and less over penetration when fired from a 16" barrel than the 9mm and 40 caliber round fired from pistols (soft point, hollow point or FMJ), let alone a SMG. MP5's are cool, but I'd rather have a .223 hollow point. Jay Arizona
Link Posted: 8/16/2001 11:29:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2001 11:33:48 PM EDT by Getsome]
I don't see where this comparison is even realistic. What agencies even use this "Shorty", that appears to have somewhere around a 6" barrel? Some may use the 10.5" barrel but most agencies including the military go with the 14.5" barrel. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Having fired an MP5 I can see the advantage in using one in an urban setting where there are liabilities. They are definitely fine firearms if not a little over priced.
Link Posted: 8/17/2001 1:43:10 AM EDT
Depends on my job on the entry team. If I have a choice (which I do sometimes) between my 14.5" M16A2 carbine or my Colt 9mm subgun, I always pick the M16. Better ballistics, more capability, less chance of overpenetration or penetration of barrier materials. In close confines though, a pistol is often a better choice than any long gun, and some team members may carry pistols as their primary weapon because of their job on the team (prisoner control, gas, entry tools, and so forth). The last several times I have done CQB-type stuff, the long guns stayed in the trunk. BTW, the Colt subgun is a piece of crap. It jams all of the time, no matter how clean it is or how new the magazines are. If I had to chose btween the Colt subgun and the MP5, the MP5 wins hands down.
Link Posted: 8/17/2001 3:01:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2001 3:05:22 AM EDT by drfcolt]
natez, [b]BTW, the Colt subgun is a piece of crap. It jams all of the time, no matter how clean it is or how new the magazines are. If I had to chose btween the Colt subgun and the MP5, the MP5 wins hands down.[/b] My Colt SMG runs perfectly. I wouldn't make a general statement that they are crap just because yours doesn't function right. Have you ever tried seeing why. Probably the ejector in your mag-well block. There's a lot of LEO's out there using them professionally. You just hear about the MP-5 alot.
Link Posted: 8/17/2001 3:46:06 AM EDT
I have heard that short AR's tend to be inaccurate and very unreliable, and I haven’t heard anything bad about the MP5 other then price.
View Quote
Most people compare the accuracy of the short AR15 with the 20" ARs but the MP5 with SMGs like UZIs and MACs. Of course everybody then says the MP5 has great accuracy and the short AR not.
Link Posted: 8/17/2001 6:02:16 AM EDT
My Armalite 11.5" .223 cycles flawlessly. Plus it's classified as restricted instead of prohibited, costs less, shoots flatter, carries more energy than a 9mm, and has cheaper and more available parts. OTOH, it is loud which may be a plus or minus depending upon your personal preference. The guy five tables down from me at the range referred to it as "WAYYY louder than a 30-06." And even with the flash hider it emits a bluish 1 foot diameter flame using Norinco ammo - haven't tried other fodder yet.
Link Posted: 8/17/2001 6:43:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By natez: BTW, the Colt subgun is a piece of crap. It jams all of the time, no matter how clean it is or how new the magazines are. If I had to chose btween the Colt subgun and the MP5, the MP5 wins hands down.
View Quote
I'm with drfcolt on this. I have a Colt SMG also, I shoot it often, and it has yet to let me down. The only problems I've had were due to my own inexperience with the system - using non factory mags, and the wrong buffer. The mags & buffer are key though - must have good factory mags and the heavy buffer. If not, it simply won't run worth a damn.
Link Posted: 8/17/2001 12:11:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2001 12:07:29 PM EDT by natez]
I apologize on the blanket statements. My experience with the Colt 9mm started when I went, along with four other coworkers, to a basic subgun school armed with factory Colt Model 635 9mm subguns. The sixth coworker had an MP5SD, and the rest of the class had MP5s. I had few problems for the first two days. The third day, my Colt started jamming about every other magazine. The other shooters had constant malfunctions from the first day on. We cleaned the weapons frequently, often cleaning and lubing on every break to keep the weapons up an running. By the end of the week, we had each fired about 2,000 rounds and had performed countless unscheduled transition drills due to stoppages. The shooters with MP5s had very few stoppages. Since then, every time I have gotten the weapon out for training, I have had a stoppage on the first burst. Most common stoppages are failures to extract, and double, triple, quadruple and more feeds (I had one where I got 8 rounds out of the weapon, including one in the lower receiver). We have gotten some new magazines, which has helped somewhat. In its favor, reloads and clearing malfunctions seem much quicker with the Colt, and it seemed slightly more accurate than the MP5. Given a choice, I carry the M16. When it works, the 9mm Colt is fun to shoot, but I have little or no confidence in it for more serious purposes.
Link Posted: 8/17/2001 12:49:06 PM EDT
This is prolly out of nowhere but I would take a CIII Steyr AUG. The stopping power of 5.56 with a full length barle in a subgun sized package, the beutey of a bullpup. [rail]
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