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Posted: 3/25/2006 5:09:39 PM EDT
Ok, let's continue the ROTC discussion here.

I enlisted through ROTC as part of my contract. Not everyone is on that status, but I was as a 4 year scholarship recipient. I've read my contrat very carefully and I know where I stand in regards to my status and what can happen if I dont hold up my end of the contract.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:15:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 5:16:16 PM EDT by CitySlicker]
Well my view on this matter is that, when you said "I serve my country", you implied that you were currently serving with the USAF in a service capacity (i.e., serving directly for the USAF, not as an AF ROTC cadet).

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think being an ROTC cadet should be referred to as "serving your country." At least not when there are thousands of servicemen in harms way right now who never utter a word about their service.

That's my two cents; you get what you pay for.

Take care.

Justin
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:18:36 PM EDT
That oath you took means very little when you "enlisted". I've taken 3 oaths so far, only one (my enlisted one right before I shipped in 1996) has mattered so far.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:20:05 PM EDT
That's your opinion, and that's fine.

My opinion is that if you sign on the dotted line and wear the uniform, you're serving. Does that mean the OTS cadets and USAFA cadets are not serving? I think they are. We are training to be officers, and that is how we are currently serving the AF. I see no difference in service if someoen is "in harms way" than if they are in the rear with the gear. everyone has their part of the mission to do, and if they do not do their part, then the mission does not get done. no job is less important than the others.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:21:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
Well my view on this matter is that, when you said "I serve my country", you implied that you were currently serving with the USAF in a service capacity (i.e., serving directly for the USAF, not as an AF ROTC cadet).

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think being an ROTC cadet should be referred to as "serving your country." At least not when there are thousands of servicemen in harms way right now who never utter a word about their service.

That's my two cents; you get what you pay for.

Take care.

Justin



Well justin, that is one point of view. Definitely the minority's view.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:23:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
That's your opinion, and that's fine.

My opinion is that if you sign on the dotted line and wear the uniform, you're serving. Does that mean the OTS cadets and USAFA cadets are not serving? I think they are. We are training to be officers, and that is how we are currently serving the AF. I see no difference in service if someoen is "in harms way" than if they are in the rear with the gear. everyone has their part of the mission to do, and if they do not do their part, then the mission does not get done. no job is less important than the others.



That is not my opinion, that is fact backed up by experience. You are not serving until the day you ship. OTS are current active enlisted members. The cadets at the academy are just that, cadets, like ROTC cadets on full ride. We are surving the AF, but we are not serving under the AF. We are not in the rear with the gear, we do not even have any gear. You will see.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:24:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
Well my view on this matter is that, when you said "I serve my country", you implied that you were currently serving with the USAF in a service capacity (i.e., serving directly for the USAF, not as an AF ROTC cadet).

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think being an ROTC cadet should be referred to as "serving your country." At least not when there are thousands of servicemen in harms way right now who never utter a word about their service.

That's my two cents; you get what you pay for.

Take care.

Justin



Yep. I was in AFROTC. I didn't serve my country.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:29:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ElCamino:
[
Yep. I was in AFROTC. I didn't serve my country.



if you're not on contract, no, you're not serving. you're trying it out to see if it's for you. once your name is on paper, you are a part of the AF. what part you play is obviously debatable, but I have a file with AFPC, I recieve pay from DFAS, I have an SGLI policy. I am definately part of the military.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:32:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 5:33:34 PM EDT by dugedug]

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By ElCamino:
[
Yep. I was in AFROTC. I didn't serve my country.



if you're not on contract, no, you're not serving. you're trying it out to see if it's for you. once your name is on paper, you are a part of the AF. what part you play is obviously debatable, but I have a file with AFPC, I recieve pay from DFAS, I have an SGLI policy. I am definately part of the military.



Active AF, Reserve AF, and Nat. Guard are three totally different worlds. The only similarities are the uniform and the paperwork. I've been on all three. AFPC has a file for alot of people, some never saw active, reserve, or guard duty.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:34:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dugedug:

Active AF, Reserve AF, and Nat. Guard are three totally different worlds. The only similarities are the uniform and the paperwork. I've been on all three.



It's still Total Force. I dont think anyone would debate the AFRES and NG do not serve their country (unless you're pushing an anti-bush agenda)
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:38:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 5:43:17 PM EDT by dugedug]
Also, that stipend, (not pay) can and will run out. I ran out of mine after 900 days with ROTC last month. Therefore I no longer get "pay" from the AF. So that is two less of your criteria that does not hold. Which leaves SGLI, how much do they take out of your $200 for it? Once you get on active duty and get a 214 you will understand what I am telling you.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:47:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
That's your opinion, and that's fine.

My opinion is that if you sign on the dotted line and wear the uniform, you're serving. Does that mean the OTS cadets and USAFA cadets are not serving? I think they are. We are training to be officers, and that is how we are currently serving the AF. I see no difference in service if someoen is "in harms way" than if they are in the rear with the gear. everyone has their part of the mission to do, and if they do not do their part, then the mission does not get done. no job is less important than the others.



I think once you are commissioned, thwn you are entitled to say "I am serving my country." Until then, please enlighten me as to how you (or any cadet) is serving his country by sitting in college. Do you see my point? Even relative to the airman who is in "the rear with the gear", a cadet simply just isn;t serving his country sitting in a classroom. He is not even near the rear yet.

That's my opinion.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:48:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dugedug:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
That's your opinion, and that's fine.

My opinion is that if you sign on the dotted line and wear the uniform, you're serving. Does that mean the OTS cadets and USAFA cadets are not serving? I think they are. We are training to be officers, and that is how we are currently serving the AF. I see no difference in service if someoen is "in harms way" than if they are in the rear with the gear. everyone has their part of the mission to do, and if they do not do their part, then the mission does not get done. no job is less important than the others.



That is not my opinion, that is fact backed up by experience. You are not serving until the day you ship. OTS are current active enlisted members. The cadets at the academy are just that, cadets, like ROTC cadets on full ride. We are surving the AF, but we are not serving under the AF. We are not in the rear with the gear, we do not even have any gear. You will see.



Exactly.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:49:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

I think once you are commissioned, thwn you are entitled to say "I am serving my country." Until then, please enlighten me as to how you (or any cadet) is serving his country by sitting in college. Do you see my point? Even relative to the airman who is in "the rear with the gear", a cadet simply just isn;t serving his country sitting in a classroom. He is not even near the rear yet.

That's my opinion.



ok, what about after I commission and go to UPT. I will spend another year sitting in a classroom, not dropping bombs on target, but learning to do so.

right now i am sitting in a classroom. I am not an officer yet, but am learning to do so.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:50:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
Well my view on this matter is that, when you said "I serve my country", you implied that you were currently serving with the USAF in a service capacity (i.e., serving directly for the USAF, not as an AF ROTC cadet).

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think being an ROTC cadet should be referred to as "serving your country." At least not when there are thousands of servicemen in harms way right now who never utter a word about their service.

That's my two cents; you get what you pay for.

Take care.

Justin



I think he might be right.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:54:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 5:56:01 PM EDT by dugedug]

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

I think once you are commissioned, thwn you are entitled to say "I am serving my country." Until then, please enlighten me as to how you (or any cadet) is serving his country by sitting in college. Do you see my point? Even relative to the airman who is in "the rear with the gear", a cadet simply just isn;t serving his country sitting in a classroom. He is not even near the rear yet.

That's my opinion.



ok, what about after I commission and go to UPT. I will spend another year sitting in a classroom, not dropping bombs on target, but learning to do so.

right now i am sitting in a classroom. I am not an officer yet, but am learning to do so.



Your not only sitting in a classroom, but your going on scavenger hunts and paying ultimate frisbee.

key word, AFTER you commission and are getting a real LES.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:55:08 PM EDT
Link to previous thread?
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:56:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

I think once you are commissioned, thwn you are entitled to say "I am serving my country." Until then, please enlighten me as to how you (or any cadet) is serving his country by sitting in college. Do you see my point? Even relative to the airman who is in "the rear with the gear", a cadet simply just isn;t serving his country sitting in a classroom. He is not even near the rear yet.

That's my opinion.



ok, what about after I commission and go to UPT. I will spend another year sitting in a classroom, not dropping bombs on target, but learning to do so.

right now i am sitting in a classroom. I am not an officer yet, but am learning to do so.



Look, if it gets to the point where you have to argue with someone in order to determine if what you are doing is considered "serving your country", then I think you might need to sit down and re-evaluate your position. Give credit where credit is due; that young Airman loading pallets in Bagram is "serving his country"; that young Soldier patrolling Mosul is "serving his country"; that young ROTC/academy cadet sitting in his classroom is not.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:57:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
Link to previous thread?



www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=449145&page=2
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:57:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dugedug:

key word,

AFTER
you commission.



my point being with that is that after commissioning, my actions will not be changing much. instead of studying leadership and officership, i will be studying how to fly. does that mean that I am not really serving until after UPT? what about after UPT when i go off to learn how to fly my MWS? that's more class room time. am i still not serving? ok, say i finish all of that, and then spend some time placing warheads on foreheads. that's service right? but then i get sent to red flag to learn how to be a better pilot. have i stopped serving again?

and ultimate frisbee is the greatest game ever nothing prepares you to be a warrior like that crap
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:59:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 6:00:42 PM EDT by Lakemoor]
Done it, did it, got the t-shirt. Even as a scholarsip STUDENT that doesn't mean much. You got to wait to pin on those gold bars. Service Academy guys are a little different than the ROTC scholarship student. For Academy guys I believe their time at school doesn't count for time in service but will get added on when eligible for retirement. Eligible for 20 years retirement, now they got 24. They get 30 days of leave per year and once you sign up you would be able to spend a max time of 1 month at home. I've known some ring knockers and they tend to stick to one another and if you don't have the ring decoder your a little SOL. I would rather do ROTC and have a life for 4 years and get my summers off.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:03:20 PM EDT
I have to agree with most here. While you may be in ROTC, you are not IN the military(USAF, USA, USN, USMC, whatever). I was often asked if I was in the military while I was still in ROTC, and I always said no. You are not serving your country, you are training to one day serve your country. Yeah, I got paid by DFAS and I had SGLI, but that doesn't mean I was in the military or serving my country. I was not "in the rear with the gear" nor was I supporting the door kickers on the front line.
Think of it this way. Someone asks you if you are in the military and you say yes. The next two questions will be 1)what is your job and 2)what is your rank? The fact is that you are a college student(last time I checked was not an MOS) and you have no rank. If you try to tell them your rank is cadet airman flyboy 2nd class or whatever you guys call yourselves, then you should show them on the rank structure chart where you are at. The simple fact is that you're not on that chart because you're not in the military and not serving your country. You will be eventually, you're just not there yet, so don't be that ROTC guy that goes around telling chicks he's in the military. He tends to get his ass kicked by other ROTC people if they find out.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:07:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LthrnckZero:

Think of it this way. Someone asks you if you are in the military and you say yes. The next two questions will be 1)what is your job and cadet in college, categorized for pilot training 2)what is your rank? cadet



has satisfied anyone who has asked.

you're right, my viewpoint might change after commissioning, but if nothing else, i see people in ROTC as doing a whole lot more for our country than the pot smoking birkenstock wearing whale kissing tree hugging hippie POS's that run around campus
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:08:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LthrnckZero:
He tends to get his ass kicked by other ROTC people if they find out.


Now who would do a thing like that?
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:10:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 6:12:25 PM EDT by dugedug]

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By LthrnckZero:

Think of it this way. Someone asks you if you are in the military and you say yes. The next two questions will be 1)what is your job and cadet in college, categorized for pilot training 2)what is your rank? cadet



has satisfied anyone who has asked.

you're right, my viewpoint might change after commissioning, but if nothing else, i see people in ROTC as doing a whole lot more for our country than the pot smoking birkenstock wearing whale kissing tree hugging hippie POS's that run around campus



But to most in the know that is like a kindergartener saying they wanna be an astronaut and they are an astronaut in training. No one likes a poser.

I didn't know college was a job, I should ask for back pay from the dean. Nap, you have never been laughed at when you responded like that? Have you ever said that to someone on active (not cadre)?
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:12:13 PM EDT
Wow..interesting thread.

Alot of semantics i must say...

My 4 years in Army ROTC - I truly felt I was serving my country. Maybe serving your country is a state of mind to some, and just 'paperwork' to others..
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:14:10 PM EDT
OMFG, I've been to AFROTC and got the Tshirt aswell....YOU ARE NOT SERVING.

You can still get out of your contract and avoid paying anything back to the Air Force...I've seen several people on full rides quit AFROTC with no repercussions.

I can't believe that you are trying to put yourself in the same category as others that have a true commitment and actually do serve.

And yes, yes there is a huge difference between those that are in the rear with the gear (REMFs/pogues/etc)...but I have more respect for both of them than I do for an AFROTC cadidiot thinking that he is a warrior now that they made him wear some blues to a class on Tuesdays, gave him a petty 200$ STIPEND and had him show up for a little bit of worthlesss PT
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:14:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chromeluv:
Wow..interesting thread.

Alot of semantics i must say...

My 4 years in Army ROTC - I truly felt I was serving my country. Maybe serving your country is a state of mind to some, and just 'paperwork' to others..



You must make the distinction between serving your country and serving your country as a member of the DoD.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:15:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dugedug:

Originally Posted By chromeluv:
Wow..interesting thread.

Alot of semantics i must say...

My 4 years in Army ROTC - I truly felt I was serving my country. Maybe serving your country is a state of mind to some, and just 'paperwork' to others..



You must make the distinction between serving your country and serving your country as a member of the DoD.




Then how about you make it for us...because Im not following.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:16:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dugedug:

But to most in the know that is like a kindergartener saying they wanna be an astronaut and they are an astronaut in training. No one likes a poser.

I didn't know college was a job, I should ask for back pay from the dean. Nap, you have never been laughed at when you responded like that? Have you ever said that to someone on active (not cadre)?



yep. spent a month of last summer on base. every single person i talked to treated me with the same respect and courtesy they would extend to anyone else wearing the uniform.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:17:55 PM EDT
I did ROTC myself. There's certainly nothing wrong with ROTC. ROTC plays a very important role in providing our armed forces with commissioned officers. ROTC is a very respectable and honorable way to get your foot in the door of the armed forces. When a college student chooses to enroll in ROTC, it at least speaks to his/her interest in serving and defending the country, and I find that admirable, whether or not he/she actually goes on to serve on active duty. Most college-age kids these days, it seems, are completely self-interested and self-absorbed, and those who even express an interest in serving their country should be applauded and encouraged.

I certainly have much more respect for a college student who chooses to join ROTC than for those who smoke dope and focus solely on how much money they can make when they get to Wall Street or Hollywood, much less for those who actually engage in anti-American and anti-military protests. (I can't fart loud enough to express my opinion of the protestors).

That said... being in ROTC is not like serving on active duty in the military. You're not out there on the front lines, and you are not even at risk of being sent there (for now). You are not even subject to UCMJ. Some may say that those going through basic training are only in training as well, but the difference is, those basic training recruits could find themselves in a hostile-fire zone within days or weeks of graduation.

So, ROTC is a great way to start, and is a completely respectable and admirable choice... but it is not the same thing as serving your country in the real military.

My $.02.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:21:43 PM EDT
Some ROTC are dual-status, they hold a position in ROTC, and drill as a member of a National Guard unit. For example, I've got a cadet in a platoon leader's position, he was a qualified 19K before he went to college. He won't be able to deploy federally until he comissions and does OBC but he can certainly carry out his state role.

My understanding is in year two of ROTC, they are given a moment of truth: Sign up for 6 years or get out. If they sign up at that point, IMO, they're serving regardless of dual status or not.

NTM
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:22:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chromeluv:

Originally Posted By dugedug:

Originally Posted By chromeluv:
Wow..interesting thread.

Alot of semantics i must say...

My 4 years in Army ROTC - I truly felt I was serving my country. Maybe serving your country is a state of mind to some, and just 'paperwork' to others..



You must make the distinction between serving your country and serving your country as a member of the DoD.




Then how about you make it for us...because Im not following.



I just did.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:24:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 6:26:35 PM EDT by CitySlicker]

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By LthrnckZero:

Think of it this way. Someone asks you if you are in the military and you say yes. The next two questions will be 1)what is your job and cadet in college, categorized for pilot training 2)what is your rank? cadet



has satisfied anyone who has asked.

you're right, my viewpoint might change after commissioning, but if nothing else, i see people in ROTC as doing a whole lot more for our country than the pot smoking birkenstock wearing whale kissing tree hugging hippie POS's that run around campus



Brother, I think you need to remind yourself that the best officers always give credit where credit is do; you may think that you are doing a lot more than the average person (and you are) but you then have to acknowledge that the enlisted man is doing a lot more than the cadet, sitting in class. Don't boast that you are doing more than the average, because there is always someone who is doing more than you, who has sacrificed more than you, and never says a word about it. Don't forget that the average which you pride yourself on exceeding happens to be subpar (fastest guy in the slow group). There is much to be learned by the term "Quiet Professional."

Remember when I said give credit where it is do? Most great officers would agree that the real heroes are the enlisted personnel; the NCO corps, the backbone of our military. I'm sure you're familiar with the following, as rendered by General Schwarzkopf, “It doesn't take a hero to order men into battle. It takes a hero to be one of those men who goes into battle.”

Take care and enjoy your evening. I hope you didn't take offense to what I wrote.

Justin
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:25:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 6:28:36 PM EDT by dugedug]

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
Some ROTC are dual-status, they hold a position in ROTC, and drill as a member of a National Guard unit. For example, I've got a cadet in a platoon leader's position, he was a qualified 19K before he went to college. He won't be able to deploy federally until he comissions and does OBC but he can certainly carry out his state role.

My understanding is in year two of ROTC, they are given a moment of truth: Sign up for 6 years or get out. If they sign up at that point, IMO, they're serving regardless of dual status or not.

NTM



Not true. You can continue on in ROTC without a contract or scholarship. I was "dual-status" as ROTC and Guard. I could have deployed even though I was in ROTC. I contracted out a month before I was going to go to Turkey. Not my choice ( I actually volunteered to go), just how the scheduling worked. Once you contract into ROTC, you contract out of the guard at the same time.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:25:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:

My understanding is in year two of ROTC, they are given a moment of truth: Sign up for 6 years or get out. If they sign up at that point, IMO, they're serving regardless of dual status or not.

NTM



army might be different, but AF is similar in that if you're on scholarship as soon as you walk through the door on day one of year 2 you're up for 4 active and 4 reserve years as either an officer (if you finish ROTC) or as an enlisted airman (if you washout of ROTC)
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:29:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Brother, I think you need to remind yourself that the best officers always give credit where credit is do; you may think that you are doing a lot more than the average person (and you are) but you then have to acknowledge that the enlisted man is doing a lot more than the cadet, sitting in class. Don't boast that you are doing more than the average, because there is always someone who is doing more than you, who has sacrificed more than you, and never says a word about it. Don't forget that the average which you pride yourself on exceeding happens to be subpar (fastest guy in the slow group). There is much to be learned by the term "Quiet Professional."

Remember when I said give credit where it is do? Most great officers would agree that the real heroes are the enlisted personnel; the NCO corps, the backbone of our military. I'm sure you're familiar with the following, as rendered by General Schwarzkopf, “It doesn't take a hero to order men into battle. It takes a hero to be one of those men who goes into battle.”

Take care and enjoy your evening. I hope you didn't take offense to what I wrote.

Justin



of course. an enlisted person is doing far more for the AF mission than I am currently where i am, and i don't dispute that for one minute. IMO, anyone on active duty is doing more for the AF mission than I am currently; HOWEVER, the debate here is whether someone in ROTC can be considered to be serving their country, which I strongly say YES!
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:31:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 6:34:25 PM EDT by dugedug]

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:

My understanding is in year two of ROTC, they are given a moment of truth: Sign up for 6 years or get out. If they sign up at that point, IMO, they're serving regardless of dual status or not.

NTM



army might be different, but AF is similar in that if you're on scholarship as soon as you walk through the door on day one of year 2 you're up for 4 active and 4 reserve years as either an officer (if you finish ROTC) or as an enlisted airman (if you washout of ROTC)



Not true, as stated above and you even admitted. You can be on scholarship and choose to not commit. It is up to the AF mostly on what they do to you. If they have the numbers they need already they will sever you. You may have to pay back the money but you will not be on active. I can get the details of what happened to my friend if you wish. I didn't ask him if he had to pay the money back as I do not like to pry in others personal buisiness... He quit as a 900 level(read more than 4 years ROTC or "extended/completed" cadet) at the beginning of this semester (may 06 commissionee).
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:34:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 6:35:18 PM EDT by CitySlicker]

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Brother, I think you need to remind yourself that the best officers always give credit where credit is do; you may think that you are doing a lot more than the average person (and you are) but you then have to acknowledge that the enlisted man is doing a lot more than the cadet, sitting in class. Don't boast that you are doing more than the average, because there is always someone who is doing more than you, who has sacrificed more than you, and never says a word about it. Don't forget that the average which you pride yourself on exceeding happens to be subpar (fastest guy in the slow group). There is much to be learned by the term "Quiet Professional."

Remember when I said give credit where it is do? Most great officers would agree that the real heroes are the enlisted personnel; the NCO corps, the backbone of our military. I'm sure you're familiar with the following, as rendered by General Schwarzkopf, “It doesn't take a hero to order men into battle. It takes a hero to be one of those men who goes into battle.”

Take care and enjoy your evening. I hope you didn't take offense to what I wrote.

Justin



of course. an enlisted person is doing far more for the AF mission than I am currently where i am, and i don't dispute that for one minute. IMO, anyone on active duty is doing more for the AF mission than I am currently; HOWEVER, the debate here is whether someone in ROTC can be considered to be serving their country, which I strongly say YES!






Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
Look, if it gets to the point where you have to argue with someone in order to determine if what you are doing is considered "serving your country", then I think you might need to sit down and re-evaluate your position.






Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
Don't boast that you are doing more than the average, because there is always someone who is doing more than you, who has sacrificed more than you, and never says a word about it. Don't forget that the average which you pride yourself on exceeding happens to be subpar (fastest guy in the slow group). There is much to be learned by the term "Quiet Professional."




Good night.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:35:42 PM EDT
I agree. I think that the key phrase is you are learning to serve your country not actually serving your country. Dont take it to hard you will soon be doing your part just enjoy your college time while you have it.
Hell I never said I was in the military while I was in ROTC and I even hesitate to say I am serving my country now being in the Guard because I havent been deployed yet.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:37:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 25Chuck:
I agree. I think that the key phrase is you are learning to serve your country not actually serving your country. Dont take it to hard you will soon be doing your part just enjoy your college time while you have it.
Hell I never said I was in the military while I was in ROTC and I even hesitate to say I am serving my country now being in the Guard because I havent been deployed yet.



you are most definately serving your country, and have been doing so since you first signed on the dotted line, and i thank you for it
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:40:53 PM EDT
If you quit ROTC right now will you get a DD214. Do you know what a DD214 is. While being in ROTC is way better than your typical college student it still isn't much. As far as being on a post for 1 month that's part of you education. I was at Bragg for 6 weeks when in ROTC. Like someone said here you are not under UCMJ, no DD214, no pay grade.

Give it a break joined a few months ago and look at your post count.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:41:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 6:46:16 PM EDT by dugedug]

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By 25Chuck:
I agree. I think that the key phrase is you are learning to serve your country not actually serving your country. Dont take it to hard you will soon be doing your part just enjoy your college time while you have it.
Hell I never said I was in the military while I was in ROTC and I even hesitate to say I am serving my country now being in the Guard because I havent been deployed yet.



you are most definately serving your country, and have been doing so since you first signed on the dotted line, and i thank you for it



When he shipped. Even if you sign the dotted line as enlisted you can say no up until you are on the bus/plane. Now you will see a recruiters head explode if you do but it has happened before.

anecdote: If you miss the bus/plane and don't ship that day you must renegotiate your contract all over again because since you did not ship on the required date the contract is null and void. This may mean that you will lose any enlistment bonus signed for or an AFSC that was promised...
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:42:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 6:43:55 PM EDT by Napoleon_Tanerite]

Originally Posted By Lakemoor:
If you quit ROTC right now will you get a DD214. Do you know what a DD214 is.



if you get disenrolled from ROTC you sure do get a DD214. I am fully aware of what a DD214 is thank you.

ETA: and if you're on contract you can get a bad conduct or dishonorable discharge from the .mil, just ask the guy from my det who got a DUI and arrested for assault
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:47:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 6:50:34 PM EDT by NavajoGunOwner]
ca·det ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-dt)
n.
A student at a military school who is training to be an officer.

A younger son or brother.
A youngest son.
Slang. A pimp.

ca·detship n.

n : a military trainee (as at a military academy) [syn: plebe]

Your are a

can·di·date ( P ) Pronunciation Key (knd-dt, -dt)
n.
A person who seeks or is nominated for an office, prize, or honor.
A student who has nearly completed the requirements for a degree.

You haven't met the requirements yet to be serving your country. That will happen after you take your commsion oath. You are in training.

And if you keep post at the rate you do you never will.

Didn't you just get married? When I got married I spent all my free time for the first year or two doing something else besides posting on the interent?


ETA: for color



Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:48:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 6:52:50 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By dugedug:

key word,

AFTER
you commission.



my point being with that is that after commissioning, my actions will not be changing much. instead of studying leadership and officership, i will be studying how to fly. does that mean that I am not really serving until after UPT? what about after UPT when i go off to learn how to fly my MWS? that's more class room time. am i still not serving? ok, say i finish all of that, and then spend some time placing warheads on foreheads. that's service right? but then i get sent to red flag to learn how to be a better pilot. have i stopped serving again?

and ultimate frisbee is the greatest game ever nothing prepares you to be a warrior like that crap



After your commission the AF can snatch you up at any time and deply you based on the needs of the AF. Now?

When you commissission will you be paid at the 01 with 4 years service rate?

Your status is about the same as what the Army refers to as a DEP.... and enlistee who has not shipped yet and is recieving some training before basic.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:50:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:

After your commission the AF can snatch you up at any time and deply you based on the needs of the AF.

Now?



after commissioning i won't be any more eligible for deployment than i am right now. i will have at least 3 years AFTER commissioning before i can be deployed due to training
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:52:25 PM EDT
I did the AFROTC thing.

I would say that if you're a contracted Cadet, you're in the military. You've taken the oath, you've signed the papers, and your ass belongs to the government. You do something to breach your contract, and you'll be held responsible. And I call BS on not having a rank. While there is a Cadet rank structure (which promotions are high school like), you are a Cadet. On your Geneva Conventions ID it says CADET (they don't give you a new card based on your promotions within the quasi Cadet rank structure, because a Cadet is a Cadet - that's a whole other conversation).

A freshman Cadet on a full ride can quit after the first year and will not owe a dime. Freshman ROTC Cadets are not even allowed to contract, so this may be where some of you heard of folks on a full ride quitting and not owing anything back.

The AF's Force Shaping has caused some Cadets to lose their Commission and not owe a red cent; they did no quit of their own free will.

But a contracted Cadet in their junior or senior year can't just quit and expect not to owe a dime. Those would be rare instances.

Some of you may not consider a college student in ROTC to be "serving their country." I disagree due to the fact that they are receiving valuable training. You're in training for four straight years. Some of the material may be a joke, but the fundamentals they teach are pretty might right on. We're not here to critique the ROTC curriculum though, I digress.

Yes, Cadets aren't fighting the war on the front lines. Yes, there's no way to quanitfy DIRECTLY what Cadets are doing to keep freedom safe.

Keep in mind that there are numerous ways to serve one's country, and not everyone is eligble to wear the uniform. Many have health problems but would make better servicemen/women than some currently serving. I'd say if you've taken the oath, and you're in training, you're serving.

I agree, Cadets don't have an MOS (or as we say in the AF, an AFSC), but they do have a job, and that job is to learn their role as an Airman and to graduate on time.

And NT, UPT (pilot training for those that don't know) isn't all classroom. Don't play it down on here. UPT was no doubt the hardest thing I've done. Its a lot of learning in one non stop year (60 hours per week AT work and at least another 20 or so studying/planning). And it is definitely something I would not want to repeat (although I'd know all the tricks). But they don't teach you to drop bombs.

Whatever the case may be here, everyone lay off the "I'm more macho because I didn't go ROTC."

I'm raising my glass WITH ALL OF YOU THAT HAVE SERVED, ARE SERVING, OR WILL SERVE in the future. Cheers.



Don't we have better shit to get our panties in a bunch over? I mean, c'mon.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:52:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:

After your commission the AF can snatch you up at any time and deply you based on the needs of the AF.

Now?



after commissioning i won't be any more eligible for deployment than i am right now. i will have at least 3 years AFTER commissioning before i can be deployed due to training



Not so. If there is a real need you can and will be diverted.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:53:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:

After your commission the AF can snatch you up at any time and deply you based on the needs of the AF.

Now?



after commissioning i won't be any more eligible for deployment than i am right now. i will have at least 3 years AFTER commissioning before i can be deployed due to training



Once you put on that bar, they can legally do whatever they wish with you.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:56:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 7:00:59 PM EDT by dugedug]

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
I did the AFROTC thing.

I would say that if you're a contracted Cadet, you're in the military. You've taken the oath, you've signed the papers, and your ass belongs to the government. You do something to breach your contract, and you'll be held responsible. And I call BS on not having a rank. While there is a Cadet rank structure (which promotions are high school like), you are a Cadet. On your Geneva Conventions ID it says CADET (they don't give you a new card based on your promotions within the quasi Cadet rank structure, because a Cadet is a Cadet - that's a whole other conversation).

A freshman Cadet on a full ride can quit after the first year and will not owe a dime. Freshman ROTC Cadets are not even allowed to contract, so this may be where some of you heard of folks on a full ride quitting and not owing anything back.

The AF's Force Shaping has caused some Cadets to lose their Commission and not owe a red cent; they did no quit of their own free will.

But a contracted Cadet in their junior or senior year can't just quit and expect not to owe a dime. Those would be rare instances.

Some of you may not consider a college student in ROTC to be "serving their country." I disagree due to the fact that they are receiving valuable training. You're in training for four straight years. Some of the material may be a joke, but the fundamentals they teach are pretty might right on. We're not here to critique the ROTC curriculum though, I digress.

Yes, Cadets aren't fighting the war on the front lines. Yes, there's no way to quanitfy DIRECTLY what Cadets are doing to keep freedom safe.

Keep in mind that there are numerous ways to serve one's country, and not everyone is eligble to wear the uniform. Many have health problems but would make better servicemen/women than some currently serving. I'd say if you've taken the oath, and you're in training, you're serving.

I agree, Cadets don't have an MOS (or as we say in the AF, an AFSC), but they do have a job, and that job is to learn their role as an Airman and to graduate on time.

And NT, UPT (pilot training for those that don't know) isn't all classroom. Don't play it down on here. UPT was no doubt the hardest thing I've done. Its a lot of learning in one non stop year (60 hours per week AT work and at least another 20 or so studying/planning). And it is definitely something I would not want to repeat (although I'd know all the tricks). But they don't teach you to drop bombs.

Whatever the case may be here, everyone lay off the "I'm more macho because I didn't go ROTC."

I'm raising my glass WITH ALL OF YOU THAT HAVE SERVED, ARE SERVING, OR WILL SERVE in the future. Cheers.



Don't we have better shit to get our panties in a bunch over? I mean, c'mon.



Actually my card says ROTC/STDT.

I took my enlisted oath twice. Which was one the real one? The officer that did it the second time said the first one didn't mean shit. Was he lying? Not trying to be arguementative, just trying to be accurate.

No panties bunched here. I'm more entrigued than anything else.
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