Quoted: In a word no . And fuck any one that says a Police Officers life is worth more than mine just because he is a police officer.

+1


This is about as far as I read on this thread.


A life is a life is a life.

Quoted: Quoted: How often do we hear in the news of a Police Officer violating a law (drunk driving, excessive force, bad shooting, accepting bribes, etc) where the officer isn't punnished as harshly as the rest of socitety would be? Police Officers, in general, get the best of both worlds. Crimes against them are dealt with more harshly, but crimes committed by them are often ignored. You are almost 100% wrong. Police Officers caught committing crimes are dealt with more harshly than non-LEOs.  At least that is true here in Texas.

I wish we had your law enforcement here then.

Seems like every other day there are reports of police around here who, for example,
are arrested for :  
drinking with underage girls
driving under the influence, and wrecking police vehicles
possession of illegal firearms
drugs
prostitution
and so on.

Yet most of the time, their punnishment is handled "within the department".

Their peers stick up for them.  

I WISH our law enforcement was as honorable as yours seems.

Quoted: Quoted: In a word no . And fuck any one that says a Police Officers life is worth more than mine just because he is a police officer. This is about as far as I read on this thread. A life is a life is a life.

And, like others that only read the intro, you are arguing a strawman and do not understand the issue.

No one is saying, "A police officer's life is worth more than other people's lives."

No one.

But society has long recognized that it is important to make the penalty for killing an enforcer of society's rules, more painful than the murder of an individual, for the reasons stated above.

Quoted: I wish we had your law enforcement here then. Seems like every other day there are reports of police around here who, for example, are arrested for :   drinking with underage girls driving under the influence, and wrecking police vehicles possession of illegal firearms drugs prostitution and so on. Yet most of the time, their punnishment is handled "within the department". Their peers stick up for them.   I WISH our law enforcement was as honorable as yours seems.

I can assure you that if a cop was caught doing any of the things you listed (and many others), he would be fired from the department and have charges filed against him.

And the good cops would be glad to testify against him in court.

No one hates bad cops more than good cops.

No

So basically, the point of some of the arguments is that murder = death sentance, but a person that murders an officer should be given a more violent and painfull death to teach people that if you are going to kill, make sure it isnt a cop?

No,unless they want to revive the guy after they execute him and do it again

After all, an attack on one of the King's men is an attack on the King himself.

Quoted: But society has long recognized that it is important to make the penalty for killing an enforcer of society's rules, more painful than the murder of an individual, for the reasons stated above.

O_P, that is the justification, not the practice.

We know that cops put more effort into catching a cop killer than they do an average joe. Like it or not the perception of that extra effort becomes reality in the minds of the people that a cops life is more important to the law.

An example is presently on the "bad side of town" there have been a rash of drive by shootings. Everyone wants these shootings stopped, but they continue.

If those same people shot one of Longview's finest, there would be a cop literally on EVERY intersection in East Texas, from Paris to Lufkin, from Waskom to Terrell. (I have seen this)

Seriously when is society safer? When bullets are flying through homes? Or when all of the law enforcement assets are stagnant looking for perps hundreds of miles from a scene of a crime.

The question has been asked and answered in many states, including Virginia.
Shooting a LEO is a capital crime.
Shooting your neighbor absent other conditions is not (even first degree is not a capitla crime n VA).
Virginia, and many other states, have a detailed list of crimes that fall under the 'capital murder' statute.  
The SCOTUS forced these clear definietions withthe anti-death penalty rulings back in the 60s and 70s.  It was only by strictly and clearly defining what is a capital crime the death penalty was allowed again.
Frtom the Code of Virginia

§ 18.2-31. Capital murder defined; punishment.
The following offenses shall constitute capital murder, punishable as a Class 1 felony:

1. The willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing of any person in the commission of abduction, as defined in § 18.2-48, when such abduction was committed with the intent to extort money or a pecuniary benefit or with the intent to defile the victim of such abduction;

2. The willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing of any person by another for hire;

3. The willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing of any person by a prisoner confined in a state or local correctional facility as defined in § 53.1-1, or while in the custody of an employee thereof;

4. The willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing of any person in the commission of robbery or attempted robbery;

5. The willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing of any person in the commission of, or subsequent to, rape or attempted rape, forcible sodomy or attempted forcible sodomy or object sexual penetration;

6. The willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing of a law-enforcement officer as defined in § 9.1-101 or any law-enforcement officer of another state or the United States having the power to arrest for a felony under the laws of such state or the United States, when such killing is for the purpose of interfering with the performance of his official duties;

7. The willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing of more than one person as a part of the same act or transaction;

8. The willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing of more than one person within a three-year period;

9. The willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing of any person in the commission of or attempted commission of a violation of § 18.2-248, involving a Schedule I or II controlled substance, when such killing is for the purpose of furthering the commission or attempted commission of such violation;

10. The willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing of any person by another pursuant to the direction or order of one who is engaged in a continuing criminal enterprise as defined in subsection I of § 18.2-248;

11. The willful, deliberate and premeditated killing of a pregnant woman by one who knows that the woman is pregnant and has the intent to cause the involuntary termination of the woman's pregnancy without a live birth;

12. The willful, deliberate and premeditated killing of a person under the age of fourteen by a person age twenty-one or older; and

13. The willful, deliberate and premeditated killing of any person by another in the commission of or attempted commission of an act of terrorism as defined in § 18.2-46.4.

If any one or more subsections, sentences, or parts of this section shall be judged unconstitutional or invalid, such adjudication shall not affect, impair, or invalidate the remaining provisions thereof but shall be confined in its operation to the specific provisions so held unconstitutional or invalid.

Quoted: I can assure you that if a cop was caught doing any of the things you listed (and many others), he would be fired from the department and have charges filed against him.

And not just the big offenses.

If an officer is caught speeding in the local departments, he faces disciplinary action like suspension for a day with loss of pay. If he has multiple speeding violations, he can be fired.

An officer caught with an expired registration sticker, inspection sticker, or city/county decal can be docked a day's pay. Again, if there are multiple violations, he can be fired.

Drunk driving? A minimum of a 2 week suspension without pay plus whatever criminal penalties the court imposes.

Most of us aren't subject to being fired for off-the-clock conduct like police officers are. Most of us, I dare say, don't face suspension and loss of pay because of a speeding ticket.

If someone shoots at a police officer, they are shooting at me. If someone tries to kill the President, they are trying to undermine MY authority as a citizen to select the leader of my nation. When someone tries to assasinate a judge, they are striking at MY authority to govern society. When someone assasinates a Congressman or Senator because they are a representative of our government, they are striking at MY authority as a citizen to govern society.

When someone attacks one of our diplomats, we consider it an act of war. Is a diplomat's life worth any more than yours or mine?

It isn't about "worth". It is about what the person in that office represents. That is why if someone attacks our ambassador, we are willing to go to war. It isn't about that one person's life, but rather about his office. An attack on him is an act of war against our entire nation. It is a strike against the sovereignty of the United States, and we will mobilize a whole bunch of whoopass to enforce our sovereignty. An ambassador is a walking nation. He himself is the sovereign territory of the United States and an attack on him will be treated the same as an attempt to invade Washington DC.

Those who hold an office that is larger than themselves are not "worth" more than anyone else. Their office, however, is an expression of our will as a people, and attacking them should bring a special kind of wrath upon the head of the attacker.

Quoted: Quoted: I can assure you that if a cop was caught doing any of the things you listed (and many others), he would be fired from the department and have charges filed against him. And not just the big offenses. If an officer is caught speeding in the local departments, he faces disciplinary action like suspension for a day with loss of pay. If he has multiple speeding violations, he can be fired. An officer caught with an expired registration sticker, inspection sticker, or city/county decal can be docked a day's pay. Again, if there are multiple violations, he can be fired. Drunk driving? A minimum of a 2 week suspension without pay plus whatever criminal penalties the court imposes. Most of us aren't subject to being fired for off-the-clock conduct like police officers are. Most of us, I dare say, don't face suspension and loss of pay because of a speeding ticket. If someone shoots at a police officer, they are shooting at me. If someone tries to kill the President, they are trying to undermine MY authority as a citizen to select the leader of my nation. When someone tries to assasinate a judge, they are striking at MY authority to govern society. When someone assasinates a Congressman or Senator because they are a representative of our government, they are striking at MY authority as a citizen to govern society. When someone attacks one of our diplomats, we consider it an act of war. Is a diplomat's life worth any more than yours or mine? It isn't about "worth". It is about what the person in that office represents. That is why if someone attacks our ambassador, we are willing to go to war. It isn't about that one person's life, but rather about his office. An attack on him is an act of war against our entire nation. It is a strike against the sovereignty of the United States, and we will mobilize a whole bunch of whoopass to enforce our sovereignty. An ambassador is a walking nation. He himself is the sovereign territory of the United States and an attack on him will be treated the same as an attempt to invade Washington DC. Those who hold an office that is larger than themselves are not "worth" more than anyone else. Their office, however, is an expression of our will as a people, and attacking them should bring a special kind of wrath upon the head of the attacker.

You and Old Painless make excellent points

Sean

Being a LEO, I must say that murder is murder regardless of who it is committed upon.


EDIT: to avoid CoC violation....

Quoted: Quoted: How often do we hear in the news of a Police Officer violating a law (drunk driving, excessive force, bad shooting, accepting bribes, etc) where the officer isn't punnished as harshly as the rest of socitety would be? Police Officers, in general, get the best of both worlds. Crimes against them are dealt with more harshly, but crimes committed by them are often ignored. You are almost 100% wrong. Police Officers caught committing crimes are dealt with more harshly than non-LEOs.  At least that is true here in Texas. And, on a related note, good cops support the harsher treatment of bad cops.  No one hates bad cops more than the 99% that are good cops. Some of you guys are so filled with hatred for Police Officers you will just spout any silly stuff as if it was the truth.

Can you show me one law that has harsher penaltes for officers than everyone else?

Have statistics showing this?

Or just talking out your....?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How often do we hear in the news of a Police Officer violating a law (drunk driving, excessive force, bad shooting, accepting bribes, etc) where the officer isn't punnished as harshly as the rest of socitety would be? Police Officers, in general, get the best of both worlds. Crimes against them are dealt with more harshly, but crimes committed by them are often ignored. You are almost 100% wrong. Police Officers caught committing crimes are dealt with more harshly than non-LEOs.  At least that is true here in Texas. And, on a related note, good cops support the harsher treatment of bad cops.  No one hates bad cops more than the 99% that are good cops. Some of you guys are so filled with hatred for Police Officers you will just spout any silly stuff as if it was the truth. Can you show me one law that has harsher penaltes for officers than everyone else? Have statistics showing this? Or just talking out your....?

Me?

"Talking out (my) ...."

That's mighty rude, Garand_Shooter.

You need to work on both your rudeness and your reading skills.

I didn't say there were "harsher penaltes for officers than everyone else".

I said that they "are dealt with more harshly than non-LEOs".  By that I meant that DA's and good policemen will deal more harshly with them, i.e., will not cut them any slack.

That has been my experience.

Somebody killing a law enforcement officer who is attempting to arrest them to me is less dangerous than some idiot killing people at random.  Their life is worth no than mine.  Kill all dangerous criminals and go back to public executions.

Mike H

Mine has been the opposite..kind of.

They are dealt with harshly about 10% of the time....... that 10% are the ones that get attention by the media so they have to act.

When nobody is looking..... the other side comes out.

Do you honestly think that LEO's that speed get dealt with more harshly? Hell there was even a thread on here(in the BOTS forum) about a NJ LEO bitching that he didn't get "professional courtesy" when he was pulled over in NC, and he even had his badge hanging from his mirror so he knew the officer saw it . That kind of behavior is the norm in most of the country, thats why he expected it.

I have seen it go as far as DV cases getting overlooked, DUI's being "driven home", etc.

So treated harsher, sure..... when there is someone from the outside watching.

Quoted: Quoted: I can assure you that if a cop was caught doing any of the things you listed (and many others), he would be fired from the department and have charges filed against him. And not just the big offenses. If an officer is caught speeding in the local departments, he faces disciplinary action like suspension for a day with loss of pay. If he has multiple speeding violations, he can be fired. An officer caught with an expired registration sticker, inspection sticker, or city/county decal can be docked a day's pay. Again, if there are multiple violations, he can be fired. Drunk driving? A minimum of a 2 week suspension without pay plus whatever criminal penalties the court imposes. Most of us aren't subject to being fired for off-the-clock conduct like police officers are. Most of us, I dare say, don't face suspension and loss of pay because of a speeding ticket. If someone shoots at a police officer, they are shooting at me. If someone tries to kill the President, they are trying to undermine MY authority as a citizen to select the leader of my nation. When someone tries to assasinate a judge, they are striking at MY authority to govern society. When someone assasinates a Congressman or Senator because they are a representative of our government, they are striking at MY authority as a citizen to govern society. When someone attacks one of our diplomats, we consider it an act of war. Is a diplomat's life worth any more than yours or mine? It isn't about "worth". It is about what the person in that office represents. That is why if someone attacks our ambassador, we are willing to go to war. It isn't about that one person's life, but rather about his office. An attack on him is an act of war against our entire nation. It is a strike against the sovereignty of the United States, and we will mobilize a whole bunch of whoopass to enforce our sovereignty. An ambassador is a walking nation. He himself is the sovereign territory of the United States and an attack on him will be treated the same as an attempt to invade Washington DC. Those who hold an office that is larger than themselves are not "worth" more than anyone else. Their office, however, is an expression of our will as a people, and attacking them should bring a special kind of wrath upon the head of the attacker.

I would love to know exactly how many times an officer actually GETS a ticket for speeding from one of his brother officers.  I bet it ain't very often...

And I'm sorry, but if I get a DUI or have my license suspended I could very well lose my job because I CAN'T GET TO WORK...  And unfortunately the guy who pulls me over isn't a co-worker and drinking buddy.  How about all the people I know personally that have been arrested because the state's computer system wrongly says they are suspended or have a warrant on them?  Are the PD's or the state's incompetent record keeping responsible?  Are they liable for civil damages in a court of law?  NO...

The state and its officers don't care and assume no responsibility if their errors cost a person their job or an undeserved stay in the county's logdginds.

And what about all the court decisions that say LEO's and their agencies have no responsibility to protect a citizen?  From what I've seen all most of the agencies care about is speed traps and positive publicity in the media.  Both of which contribute to one thing... funding...  

The cute part is that at least here in Iowa and in many other states these are the same elitists who arbitrarily can decide if you are "worthy" of the right to carry a weapon to defend yourself and your family on one hand, while saying they have no duty to protect you on the other.

And for the LEO who posted about LEO defending our rights????  I'm sorry, but I see LE very often on the opposite side of the constitutional spectrum when it comes to our rights...  One need look no further than New Orleans or the sad excuses for probable cause used to make stops or the flimsy excuses used to conduct warrantless searches to see this.  I know it's human nature to want to fight crime and/or obey the orders of your superiors regardless of the laws, but it's still uncontitutional.

I'm sorry for this rant.  I know most all LEO's are very brave, decent people who do a very difficult job.  I have several friends who are police officers too.  I greatly admire them.  I just get tired of the hypocrisy and the double-standards to which they are held, and how so many departments are whores to the media at the expense of citizen's rights and safety.

Sorry to all if this was a hijack.  I probably vent too much.  I personally agree with the LEO's on the reasoning of why killing a police officer warrants a harsher penalty.  As one poster stated, anyone who would kill a cop would kill anyone without hesitation or remorse.  Thus they deserve to be hunted down and prosecuted with all available assets.   AND, bottom line, we need to protect our cops just as much as they need to protect us.  They do a hard job often for no thanks and little respect.  I admire them for it.

Quoted: I would love to know exactly how many times an officer actually GETS a ticket for speeding from one of his brother officers.  I bet it ain't very often...

Then try an experiment. Become a local police officer or deputy. Then speed on the interstate right past a Virginia State Trooper.

See how much leniency your badge will buy you.

And I'm sorry, but if I get a DUI or have my license suspended I could very well lose my job because I CAN'T GET TO WORK...

That is a secondary consequence. Your employer does not find that you have been cited for DUI and then fire you based on that alone.

Police departments DO.

And unfortunately the guy who pulls me over isn't a co-worker and drinking buddy.  How about all the people I know personally that have been arrested because the state's computer system wrongly says they are suspended or have a warrant on them?  Are the PD's or the state's incompetent record keeping responsible?  Are they liable for civil damages in a court of law?  NO...

Because the law realizes that mistakes happen even in good faith. What would you suggest to correct the problem of good faith human error in government?

The state and its officers don't care and assume no responsibility if their errors cost a person their job or an undeserved stay in the county's logdginds.

Again, you seem to be arguing that mistakes under the color of authority should not happen. I am waiting to hear exactly how you propose going about removing the possibility of human failure from human government without causing disasterous unintended consequences. If you have a solution, then I can just about guarantee you a PHD, a chair, and a pretty cushy grant.

And none of that adresses the central question of why we should not react differently when someone operating in an office that represents our authority is attacked.

And what about all the court decisions that say LEO's and their agencies have no responsibility to protect a citizen?  From what I've seen all most of the agencies care about is speed traps and positive publicity in the media.  Both of which contribute to one thing... funding...

What about that Supreme Court decision? Do you realize the consequences of the Supreme Court saying that police departments had a duty to act as personal body guards for individual citizens instead of serving a general protective function? Do you have any idea the chaos a decision like that would have caused in society? The lawsuits? The tax burdens? Was the Supreme Court WRONG to say that police departments had no duty to act as a protector for any single individual?

Yes, departments do enforce laws against speeding. Do you know how those laws came to be? Are police departments supposed to just not enforce traffic laws because you consider them bothersome? Do you realize the consequences of a moritorium on traffic law enforcement? The chaos it would create?

The cute part is that at least here in Iowa and in many other states these are the same elitists who arbitrarily can decide if you are "worthy" of the right to carry a weapon to defend yourself and your family on one hand, while saying they have no duty to protect you on the other.

They are wrong on the 2nd ammendment. No question about it.

Nevertheless, often I see complaints about police officers that seem to be the product of a lack of understanding about the issues surrounding actually being a police officer.

Quoted: That is a secondary consequence. Your employer does not find that you have been cited for DUI and then fire you based on that alone. Police departments DO.

Damm near any job that requires you to operate a vehicle owned by the employer will fire you for DUI, not just a PD.

I agree with many here, if there is a harsher penalty for murdering or assaulting a police officer, then there sould be harsher penalties for officers who murder or wrongfully assault others in the performance of thier duties.

If the job they do is to be regarded as so special to society to be signled out for such distinctions, then such distinctions should also be noted for those officers who fail to meet the standard establshed for such a job.

Quoted: As someone who was a police officer of 16 years and prior military of 8 years, I can say without a doubt that if you kill a police officer, you should be put to death.  For all of you who feel that a police officer's life is worth the same as a regular citizen, feel free to call your elected official, convenience store clerk, or your best friend Bubba next time someone perpetrates a crime against you.  Then you will see how much justice you get. Someone who kills a police officer will not think twice about ending your life.  Flame away.

Are you serious?  Really, I'd love to delve into that ego..

And I am current active military, I'm no different than a bum on the street IMO.  Murder is murder is murder..  Draw lines between classes and we take one more step towards tyrrany and oppression.  I feel sorry for you..

Quoted: Damm near any job that requires you to operate a vehicle owned by the employer will fire you for DUI, not just a PD.

That is true. But did you know that if a normal Federal employee is caught with kiddie porn and is arrested, that he cannot legally be fired for that offense?

The point is that the rules are enforced more strictly on those who are themselves rule enforcers.

Someone who is seriously interested in this topic ought to take a look at the difference in sentencing for officers who commit crimes and ordinary citizens who commit the same crimes.

Here's a hint: Officers who are convicted are usually given very harsh sentences...

Quoted: I would love to know exactly how many times an officer actually GETS a ticket for speeding from one of his brother officers. I bet it ain't very often...

Quoted: Then try an experiment. Become a local police officer or deputy. Then speed on the interstate right past a Virginia State Trooper. See how much leniency your badge will buy you.

Yes sir....
They got me....275 bucks later

Sean

Quoted: I agree with many here, if there is a harsher penalty for murdering or assaulting a police officer, then there sould be harsher penalties for officers who murder or wrongfully assault others in the performance of thier duties. If the job they do is to be regarded as so special to society to be signled out for such distinctions, then such distinctions should also be noted for those officers who fail to meet the standard establshed for such a job.

I'm thinking that might be a good answer.  The LEOs deserve the extra legal protection that automatic severe punishment might bring and they should also then be willing to accept the fact that we also hold them to a higher standard.

I think the problem is we have so many BGs out there we're out of room anyway so all of them are right back on the street no mattter what.  It's got to be frustrating for the cops.

Too many laws?

Quoted: no murder is murder reguardless of what the victim happens to do for a living

What he said. Stupid question to begin with really.

If the cop is gay then there should be a more severe sentence because that would be a hate crime.

A part of this that hasn't been discussed is how criminals actually get off easier when they commit crimes against law enforcement.

I can think of several occasions when offenders have threatened, punched, kicked, and even shot AT officers and slapped on the wrist. The prosecutors often say that its part of the job and the officers knew the risk when they signed on...

Two sides to every coin here... you want them to be treated normal but act special... Good luck with that.

No group or profession deserves to be elevated above another.

If a cop is murdered in Detriot, as bad as it is, it won't affect my family one whit either way. If I am murdered, it does. My life is worth no less then any cops, politicians, Judge, or rich persons.

Elitists think otherwise, they are bigots, they just won't admit it to themselves. It would destroy their elevated opinion of themselves and their profession.

Yes.

Quoted: Quoted: Damm near any job that requires you to operate a vehicle owned by the employer will fire you for DUI, not just a PD. That is true. But did you know that if a normal Federal employee is caught with kiddie porn and is arrested, that he cannot legally be fired for that offense? The point is that the rules are enforced more strictly on those who are themselves rule enforcers. Someone who is seriously interested in this topic ought to take a look at the difference in sentencing for officers who commit crimes and ordinary citizens who commit the same crimes. Here's a hint: Officers who are convicted are usually given very harsh sentences...

I disagree, our EX Chief of Police who was caught with heroin, stealing dept Guns, Unauthoized Videotaping of sex acts [in his office no less] kiddie porn got a hell of a lot less then the average joe would. I do not see cops get more severe punishments, usually they get less then a year in jail so they don't go Prison, Gen Population. We"ll see what happen on other charges in another County.  All I see is some BS crap of "loss of profession, dishonor, Bla Bla Bla. Slap on the wrist. If it goes federal they are dealt closer to the same standards as local judges and politicos have less input.

I follow this stuff in my State pretty closely, 2 standards for sure.

Quoted: Glad you agree with me.. I don't think he's agreeing with you, Private Pyle. What you wrote is ridiculous.

You do know sacasim when you see it do you? Pickle.

After reading all that was posted it sounds like some of you live near a honorable LEOs and departments. That is not been the case in many of the places I have lived. Most officers let things like spouse abuse slide, DUI gets a free ride home, a drunk group of LEO being rude and beating on someone at a weekend party gets the complaining neighbor harassed for weeks.

I personally haven't been on the receiving end of this,( would be hard to keep my clearance), but after seeing some of this behavior ,and having family in LE and hearing some of his stories some of you need to count your blessing that you live where you live, it's not the norm.

I have lived from one side of this country to the other, in big cities and small.

ETA: for Speling

Quoted: Quoted: I would love to know exactly how many times an officer actually GETS a ticket for speeding from one of his brother officers.  I bet it ain't very often... Then try an experiment. Become a local police officer or deputy. Then speed on the interstate right past a Virginia State Trooper. See how much leniency your badge will buy you. I am not that naive.  I know that outside agencies are less likely to be lenient even with a brother officer, and that some state HP's are VERY strict.  I am a former truck driver, and I could tell you stories about the Ohio HP that would make your hair stand on end. And I'm sorry, but if I get a DUI or have my license suspended I could very well lose my job because I CAN'T GET TO WORK... That is a secondary consequence. Your employer does not find that you have been cited for DUI and then fire you based on that alone. Police departments DO. Another poster already answered this.  Anymore any kind of criminal record can affect your standing at almost any job.  Why else do employers now check credit ratings and criminal histories of potential hirees?  If you drive for a living, at least in Iowa, you are completely SOL, as work permits are NOT granted for commercial vehicles.  Period.  And unfortunately the guy who pulls me over isn't a co-worker and drinking buddy.  How about all the people I know personally that have been arrested because the state's computer system wrongly says they are suspended or have a warrant on them?  Are the PD's or the state's incompetent record keeping responsible?  Are they liable for civil damages in a court of law?  NO... Because the law realizes that mistakes happen even in good faith. What would you suggest to correct the problem of good faith human error in government? Firing the incompetents responsible for the errors would be a good start.  Such things are not tolerated in private industry.  Why are they in government?  If a clerical error at the state capitol causes you to be wrongfully arrested and/or imprisoned I'm all for suing the state and seeing the people responsible for accurate records fired. I would not include the police officer in that statement either.  They have to act on the information they are given according to the rules of their department.  I DO think they owe a person a good faith effort to investigate the validity of such a suspension or warrant in a timely manner though.  Given the access to information and investigative tools that police have access to they should be able to readily confirm or dismiss such information.  If you are taking someone's freedom from them you owe them an effort to make sure your basis for doing so is valid.  That should take precedent over the juicy citation you are hoping to write. The state and its officers don't care and assume no responsibility if their errors cost a person their job or an undeserved stay in the county's logdginds. Again, you seem to be arguing that mistakes under the color of authority should not happen. I am waiting to hear exactly how you propose going about removing the possibility of human failure from human government without causing disasterous unintended consequences. If you have a solution, then I can just about guarantee you a PHD, a chair, and a pretty cushy grant. And none of that adresses the central question of why we should not react differently when someone operating in an office that represents our authority is attacked. I already stated in my earlier post that I think anyone who attacks or kills a police officer should be hunted down and prosecuted to the furthest extent of the law.  For that matter any violent felon should be.  I would appreciate it if you would re-read the end of my earlier post.  I am not completely anti-LE whatsoever... And what about all the court decisions that say LEO's and their agencies have no responsibility to protect a citizen?  From what I've seen all most of the agencies care about is speed traps and positive publicity in the media.  Both of which contribute to one thing... funding... What about that Supreme Court decision? Do you realize the consequences of the Supreme Court saying that police departments had a duty to act as personal body guards for individual citizens instead of serving a general protective function? Do you have any idea the chaos a decision like that would have caused in society? The lawsuits? The tax burdens? Was the Supreme Court WRONG to say that police departments had no duty to act as a protector for any single individual? Well as long as the police are not liable and have no duty to protect us then they should have no right to say we cannot be armed and/or use force to protect ourselves.  Wouldn't you agree?  But instead in all too many cases they instruct you to get a meaningless peice of paper called a restraining order and to lock our doors, etc... Yes, departments do enforce laws against speeding. Do you know how those laws came to be? Are police departments supposed to just not enforce traffic laws because you consider them bothersome? Do you realize the consequences of a moritorium on traffic law enforcement? The chaos it would create? I would never suggest that the police stop enforcing traffic laws.  I do find speed traps and checkpoints to be ridiculous and smacking of fascism though.  If you disagree with that I respect your opinion.  I hope you respect mine...  I would just prefer to see more police attention given to other crimes that hurt a lot more people every day.  A good case in point is the 2 times I have been burglarized.  In both cases the PD was just too busy to investigate it in spite of all the evidence we had regarding who did it and where to find them and our property...  I did see the same PD out on the highway stopping speeders that same day though... btw... I see nothing wrong with traffic laws and enforcing them.  You negatively affect the safety of others if you drive irresponsibly, and thus should be subject to official sanction.  Seat belt laws are a different story though.  In our own cars it is not the state's business what we do.  It has no impact on the safety of other people we share the road with.  Instead seat belt laws serve as nothing more than a revenue generating mechanism for cash-hungry local governments. The cute part is that at least here in Iowa and in many other states these are the same elitists who arbitrarily can decide if you are "worthy" of the right to carry a weapon to defend yourself and your family on one hand, while saying they have no duty to protect you on the other. They are wrong on the 2nd ammendment. No question about it. Thank you. I agree!   Nevertheless, often I see complaints about police officers that seem to be the product of a lack of understanding about the issues surrounding actually being a police officer.

I agree with you 100%.  It's easy to become embittered toward LE and LEO's in general after a few negative experiences.  It becomes far too easy to think of them as dog-killing JBT's rather than the generally fine, upstanding, courageous people they are.

ETA:  Thank you for your replies.  I found them very interesting and informative.  I think too often we civilians tend to lose sight of what your job is really like, and tend to only see the bad.  I'm sorry it took so long to reply.  I've enjoyed this discussion a great deal.  BE SAFE OUT THERE!

And I'm sorry, but if I get a DUI or have my license suspended I could very well lose my job because I CAN'T GET TO WORK...

Thats what they make hardship licenses for. Allows you to get back and forth to work and thats about it.


 

And unfortunately the guy who pulls me over isn't a co-worker and drinking buddy.  How about all the people I know personally that have been arrested because the state's computer system wrongly says they are suspended or have a warrant on them?  Are the PD's or the state's incompetent record keeping responsible?  Are they liable for civil damages in a court of law?  NO...

The officers have to take the computer response as correct unless the person  can provide documentation showing that the entry is in error...and lots of folks I know who carry such documentation for just that reason. In fact, the court TELLS defendants to carry the paperwork to clear up any erroneous or old information.

Firing the incompetents responsible for the errors would be a good start.  Such things are not tolerated in private industry.  Why are they in government?  If a clerical error at the state capitol causes you to be wrongfully arrested and/or imprisoned I'm all for suing the state and seeing the people responsible for accurate records fired.

Who exactly would you fire? The Judge? The clerk? Who?

I would not include the police officer in that statement either.  They have to act on the information they are given according to the rules of their department.  I DO think they owe a person a good faith effort to investigate the validity of such a suspension or warrant in a timely manner though.  Given the access to information and investigative tools that police have access to they should be able to readily confirm or dismiss such information.

Not always. How  is an officer supposed to "investigate", for instance, a suspension issued on a drivers license by a Justice court half way across the state that is only in session one day a week and the traffic stop is at 0300 hours on Tuesday morning? Let alone a warrant issued by same court?

[

Well as long as the police are not liable and have no duty to protect us then they should have no right to say we cannot be armed and/or use force to protect ourselves.  Wouldn't you agree?  But instead in all too many cases they instruct you to get a meaningless piece of paper called a restraining order and to lock our doors, etc...

Last I knew, it was the legislature that set that sort of law in place. The Orders of Protection are issued based on a credible threat against the victim by the suspect.  The Order is not "meaningless"; it is one step in the process of dealing with a specific threat against you.

I would never suggest that the police stop enforcing traffic laws.  I do find speed traps and checkpoints to be ridiculous and smacking of fascism though.

No such thing as a speed trap. No one traps a driver into the act they are ticketed for.

If you disagree with that I respect your opinion.  I hope you respect mine...  I would just prefer to see more police attention given to other crimes that hurt a lot more people every day.  A good case in point is the 2 times I have been burglarized.  In both cases the PD was just too busy to investigate it in spite of all the evidence we had regarding who did it and where to find them and our property...  I did see the same PD out on the highway stopping speeders that same day though...

Two different  divisions within the department. Just because the Investigators are tied up does not mean that the traffic division should drop ITS job to help out the Investigators.

I think too often we civilians tend to lose sight of what your job is really like, and tend to only see the bad.

I'll agree with that.

I'm a police officer and I say, Murder is Murder.  The only exception would be a Justifiable Homicide.  

All Murders should get the same punishment.    


___________________________________  

 

Police officers are the first and last line of defense in a world that is slowly but surely sinking into a shit hole state

the armed citizens themselves are suppossed to be the 1st line of defense.

Quoted: Police officers are the first and last line of defense in a world that is slowly but surely sinking into a shit hole state the armed citizens themselves are suppossed to be the 1st line of defense.

+1

Some people get all wrapped up in themselves....

The forget about things like the origins of the Consitution and the power they are given is only by permission of the people and they are subject to the people.
Some see the .gov, at any level, being elevated above the people.  That attitude will contribute to the dictatorial government that ends up taking over this conrty.

Quoted: No. A human life is a human life regardless of what’s pinned on their chest

+1 Death penalty regardless of employment status!

No. Child-molestors should be given a 'special' sentence.
Cops are just people, with jobs, most of whom happen to be upstanding human beings; and although government entity is to be obeyed, it is NOT 'special.'
I DO believe on the other hand that murdering people without cause should have a 'special' punishment.

I fully support stiffer sentences for  killing law enforcement officers.  They are the ones on the front lines fighting crime.  Since they represent society in this fight against good and evil violence against them
should be met with harsher penalties.

As to are their lives worth more then yours?  What are you giving back to your community?

Quoted: I tend to think so, because of the special circumstances of the situation. You and I and John Doe aren't paid by the government to enforce laws and confront people who would love to kill us on a potentially daily basis. LE is charged with that task, so I think there should be a stiffer punishment for violating that higher expectation. Let me put it in a different light: When you murder a random person, you "only" defy two things: a person's right to life, and the laws that protect that right. If you kill a cop, however, those same things are violated, except the difference is that in addition, you also - in the worst possible way - violate/destroy that which protects both of the aforementioned items. It's like taking it to the next level, violating 3/3 instead of 2/3. The same should apply for some other non-LE fields that are charged with using up-to deadly force to protect American social institutions/concepts, like on-duty military servicemen. Personally, I say that the death penalty itself should be awarded equally for any (elligible) murder victims, regardless if they are LE/military/normal civilian. However, if I had my way, people who killed LE officers/servicemen would get a harsher method of death. What I always imagined is, once a year, we take all the cop murderers and lock them all naked in a bare concrete room with a steel door, and totally forget about them until a year later, when we send in the next batch (without cleaning the "leftovers" out) Of course, that's just what I think. Please don't flame if you simply disagree, that's fine if you do.

I disagee with your first paragraph for precisely the reasons stated in it.  A LEO has a badge, the "charge" of the governemnt, which gives him/her/it more of a right to use a gun, for example, than you or I.  In some jurisdictions, that's the only way a person legally can use a gun.  So, the police officer has a greater means of defense.  Even in jurisdictions in which a private person can use a gun in defense, that person has much more analysis to go through.  Just look at any of the "Good shoot or not" threads one sees here on arfcom.  Sure, some will; chime in that the officer has to undergo investigation, too.  Give me a break!  It's nothing like an asst. da and three bullies badgering John  Doe as to why he shot.  The officer has more protection.

Likewise, I do not believe in "hate crime" additional penalties.  The crime is the crime, if it is a crime.  Punish accordingly, regardless of the people involved.  To do otherwise is to prove it is a legal system, for that is not "justice."  (Add: the Lefavre situation is an example of such a travesty: she was let off because she's "atttractive."  Humbug!  So, it's justice if an ugly mug like me goes to jail, be she's too cute? )  Same thing.  Everyone wants special privileges.  It's all the same attitude.

Quoted: I fully support stiffer sentences for  killing law enforcement officers.  They are the ones on the front lines fighting crime.  Since they represent society in this fight against good and evil violence against them should be met with harsher penalties. As to are their lives worth more then yours?  What are you giving back to your community?

Stiffer than death? Which is what should happen in the case of murder.

As too what I give back personally, lets start with paying for it.......
volunteer as a precient captian and district coordinator, spent six months in Iraq as a civilian-not for the money, it wasn't enough, and other things.

I do wish we wouldn't count on .gov types to fight crime for us, it is just being handled by a higher and higher up .gov types who take more control of our lives and restrict our freedoms. Now the killing of a .gov worker is to be more 'special' than the killing of a citizen.

And from this pro-gun board some people get upset if you dare suggest that ,gov workers who have take an oath to protect and serve need to be held to a higher standard of conduct.

Why take an oath if it doesn't mean you have swore to something higher?
So for me the question should be - should someone who has taken an oath, when they have broken that oath should they be handed a "special " sentence? (Above what someone who has not taken that oath.)

Flame on....


ETa; for spelllllling

Quoted: I fully support stiffer sentences for  killing law enforcement officers.  They are the ones on the front lines fighting crime.  Since they represent society in this fight against good and evil violence against them should be met with harsher penalties. As to are their lives worth more then yours?  What are you giving back to your community?

They get PAID to do their job. Wonder how many would GIVE back to the community if they did NOT get paid.  
It's a JOB, JOB, JOB, repeat as needed to sink in. They GIVE nothing, they are compensated monitarily for what they do. They can QUIT anytime.

I appreciated what they do, but they are not some uber superhuman evolutional offshoot.

When shit happens to us normal human beings, cops are not anywhere to be seen. Just the way it is, they are after the fact responders in most cases. I prefer it to be that way anyways, proactive police/statists governments and their ilk tend to be a bit facist in their power usage.

Quoted: Quoted: I fully support stiffer sentences for  killing law enforcement officers.  They are the ones on the front lines fighting crime.  Since they represent society in this fight against good and evil violence against them should be met with harsher penalties. As to are their lives worth more then yours?  What are you giving back to your community? Stiffer than death? Which is what should happen in the case of murder. As too what I give back personally, lets start with paying for it....... volunteer as a precient captian and district coordinator, spent six months in Iraq as a civilian-not for the money, it wasn't enough, and other things. I do wish we wouldn't count on .gov types to fight crime for us, it is just being handled by a higher and higher up .gov types who take more control of our lives and restrict our freedoms. Now the killing of a .gov worker is to be more 'special' than the killing of a citizen. And from this pro-gun board some people get upset if you dare suggest that ,gov workers who have take an oath to protect and serve need to be held to a higher standard of conduct. Why take an oath if it doesn't mean you have swore to something higher? So for me the question should be - should someone who has taken an oath, when they have broken that oath should they be handed a "special " sentence? (Above what someone who has not taken that oath.) Flame on.... ETa; for spelllllling

Did a bell go off or something?   Show me were I specifically pulled your chain?  Most of the people who I know who are police officers actually do it to serve the community.  I did it to serve and did not get paid for my time.  Why, I could not afford to take the job for what it paid full time.  Look at their pay its not for the money.  


Stiffer then death?  The death penalty is not always given in a murder case.  

Quoted: Quoted: I fully support stiffer sentences for  killing law enforcement officers.  They are the ones on the front lines fighting crime.  Since they represent society in this fight against good and evil violence against them should be met with harsher penalties. As to are their lives worth more then yours?  What are you giving back to your community? They get PAID to do their job. Wonder how many would GIVE back to the community if they did NOT get paid.   It's a JOB, JOB, JOB, repeat as needed to sink in. They GIVE nothing, they are compensated monitarily for what they do. They can QUIT anytime. I appreciated what they do, but they are not some uber superhuman evolutional offshoot. When shit happens to us normal human beings, cops are not anywhere to be seen. Just the way it is, they are after the fact responders in most cases. I prefer it to be that way anyways, proactive police/statists governments and their ilk tend to be a bit facist in their power usage.

Delivering pizza is a job, law enforcement is a higher calling.  It will always be in my mind.  Your anti government shit slinging will not change that.

I don`t know what an ilk is?   Possibly a type of facist?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I fully support stiffer sentences for  killing law enforcement officers.  They are the ones on the front lines fighting crime.  Since they represent society in this fight against good and evil violence against them should be met with harsher penalties. As to are their lives worth more then yours?  What are you giving back to your community? They get PAID to do their job. Wonder how many would GIVE back to the community if they did NOT get paid.   It's a JOB, JOB, JOB, repeat as needed to sink in. They GIVE nothing, they are compensated monitarily for what they do. They can QUIT anytime. I appreciated what they do, but they are not some uber superhuman evolutional offshoot. When shit happens to us normal human beings, cops are not anywhere to be seen. Just the way it is, they are after the fact responders in most cases. I prefer it to be that way anyways, proactive police/statists governments and their ilk tend to be a bit facist in their power usage. Delivering pizza is a job, law enforcement is a higher calling.  It will always be in my mind.  Your anti government shit slinging will not change that. I don`t know what an ilk is?   Possibly a type of facist?

"Law enforcement a higher calling". Yup, elitist is about right. You have the "we are spechul" bit down pat.
Did the good Lord annoint you with your calling? Dip you in the pool of police powers?

I'm not anti govt "shit slinging", I'm stating that when a group believes they are somehow entitled to be "worth more" in the governments eyes [higher lever of charges and punishment to those who assault or murder them] they are wrong. Reread 1984 by George Orwell. Murder is murder, I do not care whether it is aginst a single mom in the slums or a congressman in the halls of power. Our Country was founded on the belief that "ALL PEOPLE ARE CREATED EQUAL". They have the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." If you thinks you are "speshu" because you're a cop, you are an embarressment to LEOs who can actually read the Constitution. And those who uphold it also.
Bet you don't like CCW laws either, do you?

Quoted: The stiffer penalty for killing a LEO would not apply if the LEO were not on duty or acting in an official capacity when killed.  The stiffer penalties are there because killing a person is generally considered a crime against that person.  Killing a LEO while acting in that capacity is considered a crime against all of society.  It does not exist because the law, or LEO's for that matter, feel that the life of a LEO is worth more than a non LEO.  The penalties are stiffer because killing a LEO is considered an attack on our civilized society. Flame on..........................................

+1

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I fully support stiffer sentences for  killing law enforcement officers.  They are the ones on the front lines fighting crime.  Since they represent society in this fight against good and evil violence against them should be met with harsher penalties. As to are their lives worth more then yours?  What are you giving back to your community? They get PAID to do their job. Wonder how many would GIVE back to the community if they did NOT get paid.   It's a JOB, JOB, JOB, repeat as needed to sink in. They GIVE nothing, they are compensated monitarily for what they do. They can QUIT anytime. I appreciated what they do, but they are not some uber superhuman evolutional offshoot. When shit happens to us normal human beings, cops are not anywhere to be seen. Just the way it is, they are after the fact responders in most cases. I prefer it to be that way anyways, proactive police/statists governments and their ilk tend to be a bit facist in their power usage. Delivering pizza is a job, law enforcement is a higher calling.  It will always be in my mind.  Your anti government shit slinging will not change that. I don`t know what an ilk is?   Possibly a type of facist? "Law enforcement a higher calling". Yup, elitist is about right. You have the "we are spechul" bit down pat. Did the good Lord annoint you with your calling? Dip you in the pool of police powers? I'm not anti govt "shit slinging", I'm stating that when a group believes they are somehow entitled to be "worth more" in the governments eyes [higher lever of charges and punishment to those who assault or murder them] they are wrong. Reread 1984 by George Orwell. Murder is murder, I do not care whether it is aginst a single mom in the slums or a congressman in the halls of power. Our Country was founded on the belief that "ALL PEOPLE ARE CREATED EQUAL". They have the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." If you thinks you are "speshu" because you're a cop, you are an embarressment to LEOs who can actually read the Constitution. And those who uphold it also. Bet you don't like CCW laws either, do you?

LOL,  you are funny.  Thanks for the laugh and the compliment about being an LEO.  I am currently not an LEO but will always be a supporter of them.  Does that mean I will not admit when a mistake is made, no.  See my responce in the post were the old man and womens house was raided by mistake.

My comments are my own and to judge others by them is foolhardy and just what I would expect from you.

My CCW is not to protect me from LEO`s or the government.  If you view yours that way turn it back in.  You have a metal disorder and should not have it if you feel that way.  Its called being paranoid.

As to any divine direction I may have been given on the subject,  no not that I remember.  How about you been hearing any voices lately when no one is around?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I fully support stiffer sentences for  killing law enforcement officers.  They are the ones on the front lines fighting crime.  Since they represent society in this fight against good and evil violence against them should be met with harsher penalties. As to are their lives worth more then yours?  What are you giving back to your community? They get PAID to do their job. Wonder how many would GIVE back to the community if they did NOT get paid.   It's a JOB, JOB, JOB, repeat as needed to sink in. They GIVE nothing, they are compensated monitarily for what they do. They can QUIT anytime. I appreciated what they do, but they are not some uber superhuman evolutional offshoot. When shit happens to us normal human beings, cops are not anywhere to be seen. Just the way it is, they are after the fact responders in most cases. I prefer it to be that way anyways, proactive police/statists governments and their ilk tend to be a bit facist in their power usage. Delivering pizza is a job, law enforcement is a higher calling.  It will always be in my mind.  Your anti government shit slinging will not change that. I don`t know what an ilk is?   Possibly a type of facist? "Law enforcement a higher calling". Yup, elitist is about right. You have the "we are spechul" bit down pat. Did the good Lord annoint you with your calling? Dip you in the pool of police powers? I'm not anti govt "shit slinging", I'm stating that when a group believes they are somehow entitled to be "worth more" in the governments eyes [higher lever of charges and punishment to those who assault or murder them] they are wrong. Reread 1984 by George Orwell. Murder is murder, I do not care whether it is aginst a single mom in the slums or a congressman in the halls of power. Our Country was founded on the belief that "ALL PEOPLE ARE CREATED EQUAL". They have the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." If you thinks you are "speshu" because you're a cop, you are an embarressment to LEOs who can actually read the Constitution. And those who uphold it also. Bet you don't like CCW laws either, do you? LOL,  you are funny.  Thanks for the laugh and the compliment about being an LEO.  I am currently not an LEO but will always be a supporter of them.  Does that mean I will not admit when a mistake is made, no.  See my responce in the post were the old man and womens house was raided by mistake. My comments are my own and to judge others by them is foolhardy and just what I would expect from you. My CCW is not to protect me from LEO`s or the government.  If you view yours that way turn it back in.  You have a metal disorder and should not have it if you feel that way.  Its called being paranoid. As to any divine direction I may have been given on the subject,  no not that I remember.  How about you been hearing any voices lately when no one is around?

Funny thing is. I support them also. Taken classes offered by the local PDs. Know quite a few in the area. I just don't believe they are any more special then any one else. Some are good, some are bad, some do it because they like the job, some do it because they are bullies. They are a make up of the population at large.

Quoted: no murder is murder reguardless of what the victim happens to do for a living

+1