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Posted: 3/24/2006 3:58:06 PM EDT
im watching a show on the history channel about bombs and we hammered their largest cities with incindiary bombs not to mention the 2 atomics we dropped. history channel estimated 200,000 dead with just the incindiaries. just wondering why we went after their civilian pop. after all they bombed our military installation in pearl harbour ?
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 3:59:41 PM EDT
War is hell.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:00:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:01:47 PM EDT
Given the technology of the day -- dumb iron bombs dropped using very primitive navigation methods -- there was no way to do the precision strikes that we see today.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:02:03 PM EDT
Fuck with a bull, you get the horns.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:03:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BrianC:
Given the technology of the day -- dumb iron bombs dropped using very primitive navigation methods -- there was no way to do the precision strikes that we see today.



ahh, thanks
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:05:53 PM EDT
Cause we still remembered the millions of massacred Chinese civilians...uh,oh, and the Bataan Death March too....
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:06:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:06:41 PM EDT
To keep from losing HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN LIVES in a house to house war on mainland Japan against a fanatical enemy . End of story.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:07:32 PM EDT
Because at that time it was the way we thought, I miss those times
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:09:09 PM EDT
It was terrorism, it was moraly wrong, and they absolutely made the correct decision. The ends justified the means, they saved American and Japanease lives.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:09:47 PM EDT
because that's how wars were fought for thousands of years.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:10:48 PM EDT
They slaughtered 20 million civilians in various Asian countries, not mentioning the POWs they executed and used as slave labors / medical experiments / beheading practices and they bitched about 200,000+ form Hiroshima / Nagasaki / Tokyo fire bombings? I'm sure you've heard about Bataan Death March and Nanking massacre.

F**ck 'em
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:11:44 PM EDT
Thats how you end Wars and make them think twice about starting the same crud again. Germany and Japan got spanked HARD and look what happened later. Now look at Korea, "Nam', and Iraq. They were still upitty after the little hand slap they got.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:12:25 PM EDT
You clearly haven't seen the videos of civilian women training with spears to resist the invasion of the home islands. Or read of the thousands of civilians who committed suicide during the invasion of Okinawa, rather than be 'captured'. Hell, these are the people that invented suicide attacks.

Don't let leftist revisionists fool you into believing that the allies were in the wrong in this war.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:12:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Pangea:
To keep from losing HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN LIVES in a house to house war on mainland Japan against a fanatical enemy . End of story.



+1 I read a biography on Truman and it stated in the biography that after the first bomb was dropped the Japanese got together and decided that it would be shameful to surrender. This was decided on a poll of the people, whether they were defeated or not.

It wasn't until after the devastation of the 2nd bomb that it was even considered surrendering.

War with Japan was entirely different than any other war before. With that said, Hitler carpet bombed major European Cities with what tools he had and IF either Germany or Japan had access to the Bomb they would have used it.

In Truman's speech about using the bomb to the Japanese he clearly states "We won the race to Atomic proportions" This indicates to me that we weren't the only one exploring this option.

Patty
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:13:53 PM EDT
because, thats how you win a war. look, if you strike me unprovoked I will strike you back twice as hard and without mercy. first rule of combat/war.if he uses a fist,you use a knife. if he uses a knife, you use a gun. if he uses a gun, you use a bomb.

fair fights are for losers.

notice anyone that crys "no fair" is always the loser..................don't be a loser.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:16:56 PM EDT
Every major nation involved in WWII (that wasn't steam-rolled by the Germans before they even got a proper defense up) bombed cities. If you hit another country's factories, munition plants, and government centers, especially the capital, you remove their capability and will to fight.

It's called total war- either you survive, or they do. Which one are you gonna choose?
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:17:02 PM EDT
Shock and awe. Show them that we can LEVEL their cities, and they'll give up.

Peace through superior firepower at it's finest.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:19:30 PM EDT
Because back then we did not fuck around,we did what it takes to fuck up a country and get it over with.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:20:36 PM EDT
That is how you win wars. Something we dont do anymore. You kill as much of each other untill someone gives. Now the new thing is to blow up a single truck with a $500,000,000.00 bomb and if someone dies then they bring in the press and get a bunch of US lefty lawyers.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:21:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wolfpack:

Originally Posted By 97guns:
im watching a show on the history channel about bombs and we hammered their largest cities with incindiary bombs not to mention the 2 atomics we dropped. history channel estimated 200,000 dead with just the incindiaries. just wondering why we went after their civilian pop. after all they bombed our military installation in pearl harbour ?



The Philipinos were ok with it.



And so where the Chinese...too bad they missed Mao and his family.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:21:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 97guns:
im watching a show on the history channel about bombs and we hammered their largest cities with incindiary bombs not to mention the 2 atomics we dropped. history channel estimated 200,000 dead with just the incindiaries. just wondering why we went after their civilian pop. after all they bombed our military installation in pearl harbour ?

Nagasaki and Hiro, where militaru industrial centers, making equipment for the war machine(Legit target).
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:21:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 4:26:30 PM EDT by Dominus]

In Truman's speech about using the bomb to the Japanese he clearly states "We won the race to Atomic proportions" This indicates to me that we weren't the only one exploring this option.


An interesting story surrounds the German nuclear program. One of their cheif scientists, Werner Heisenberg (of 'Uncertainty' fame), made a very simple error when trying to determine the feasibility of a nuclear bomb in the late 1930s. Without going into too much detail, it didn't involve mathematics, and was one of those 'oh, duh' sort of errors that you feel really stupid about afterwards. Anyway, he came to the conclusion that several dozen tons of enriched uranium would be required for a single bomb, making it impractical. Thus, Germany focused on other areas of research, and never developed the bomb (though it was far ahaed of the allies in terms of nuclear physics).

Edit: Some googling shows that the details of this account are in dispute. The above is my understanding of events, but YMMV.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:21:56 PM EDT
The strategic bombing of japanese cities had nothing to do with limited technology for precision strikes.

It was a sort of terrorism. Fire-bombing was carried out as a long-term strategy to destroy Japan's ability to produce war materials as well as undermine the Japanese Government's will to continue the war.



The B-29 Superfortress bomber made its first appearance over Tokyo on November 1, 1944 - a single plane flying at 35,000 feet; beyond the reach of the defender's anti-aircraft guns and fighter planes. The intruder dropped no bombs. This was strictly a reconnaissance mission.

The Superforts returned in force at the end of the month, flying at altitudes that insured immunity from attacks by Japanese defenders. Although their high altitude provided a shield for the bombers, it also decreased the accuracy and impact of their bomb runs. To correct this deficiency, Major-General Curtis Lemay (newly appointed commander of the American Bomber Command) ordered a dramatic change in tactics. The bomber runs would be made at night, at low altitude and deliver a mixture of high explosive and incendiary bombs. The objective was to turn the closely-packed, wooden homes and buildings prevalent in the Japanese cities into raging infernos and ultimately into the most destructive of all weapons - the firestorm.


B-29 Superfortress
The Allies had first encountered the phenomenon of the firestorm when the British bombed the German city of Hamburg in August of 1943. The night raid ignited numerous fires that soon united into one uncontrollable mass of flame, so hot it generated its own self-sustaining, gale-force winds and literally sucked the oxygen out of the air, suffocating its victims. Lemay hoped to use this force to level the cities of Japan. Tokyo would be the first test.

A successful incendiary raid required ideal weather that included dry air and significant wind. Weather reports predicted these conditions over Tokyo on the night of March 9-10, 1945. A force of 334 B-29s was unleashed - each plane stripped of ammunition for its machine guns to allow it to carry more fire-bombs. The lead attackers arrived over the city just after dark and were followed by a procession of death that lasted until dawn. The fires started by the initial raiders could be seen from 150 miles away. The results were devastating: almost 17 square miles of the city were reduced to ashes. Estimates of the number killed range between 80,000 and 200,000, a higher death toll than that produced by the dropping of the Atomic Bomb on Hiroshima or Nagasaki six months later.

Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:23:34 PM EDT
They wanted shit from us and they got it. Much more then they expected.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:23:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BrianC:
Given the technology of the day -- dumb iron bombs dropped using very primitive navigation methods -- there was no way to do the precision strikes that we see today.



Pretty much.
Plus, we were at war with a country = total war.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:27:34 PM EDT

Japan and Germany were working on a dirty (nuclear waste) bomb to drop on San Francisco. The U.S. Navy intercepted the sub bringing the nuc materials to japan so it never happened.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:28:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot:
Japan and Germany were working on a dirty (nuclear waste) bomb to drop on San Francisco. The U.S. Navy intercepted the sub bringing the nuc materials to japan so it never happened.



Are you high?
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:30:19 PM EDT
We didn't go after Japanese Civvies.

We went under Japanese INDUSTRY.

Most of the Japanese industry was a 'cottage industry' IE small places that made parts, uniforms, etc.

Tokyo was a frame building city and a lot of production was coming out of there small places.

Burn the city and cripple the Japanese War Effort.

FWIW, how many of us would , say, sew uniforms, make small parts at home after hours to keep a war going? I truly respect the Japanese in that department.(Today's US Soccer Mom: What? After I pick Jimmy up and clean house? You want me to sew bandages and make uniforms? Are you SERIOUS?)
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:32:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By piccolo:
We didn't go after Japanese Civvies.

We went under Japanese INDUSTRY.

Most of the Japanese industry was a 'cottage industry' IE small places that made parts, uniforms, etc.

Tokyo was a frame building city and a lot of production was coming out of there small places.

Burn the city and cripple the Japanese War Effort.



doesn't explain why the full scale model they used to test our napalm bombs was a traditional Japanese house, not a Japanese factory. The attitude was, "if we kill all of the workers, then we have destroyed the industry", not "let's bomb the factories to destroy the industry".
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:33:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By piccolo:
We didn't go after Japanese Civvies.

We went under Japanese INDUSTRY.

Most of the Japanese industry was a 'cottage industry' IE small places that made parts, uniforms, etc.

Tokyo was a frame building city and a lot of production was coming out of there small places.

Burn the city and cripple the Japanese War Effort.



doesn't explain why the full scale model they used to test our napalm bombs was a traditional Japanese house, not a Japanese factory. The attitude was, "if we kill all of the workers, then we have destroyed the industry", not "let's bomb the factories to destroy the industry".




That would work well in our current war
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:39:12 PM EDT

Lots of military-industrial targets interspersed with civilian areas. Tough cookies.

War sucks, but it beats the alternative.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:40:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:
[
doesn't explain why the full scale model they used to test our napalm bombs was a traditional Japanese house, not a Japanese factory. The attitude was, "if we kill all of the workers, then we have destroyed the industry", not "let's bomb the factories to destroy the industry".




Actually, it does. The average Japanese HOUSE in fact WAS a small factory.

Picture a city full of us with RCBS single stage presses making ammo for the troops.

We'd do something like this AFTER working a 12 hour shift at the (for example) rifle factory
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:40:59 PM EDT
The only reason why the Japanese never bombed our cities was because they couldn't, not because they didn't want too.

They tried a couple hairbrained schemes like baloon bombs but it wasn't effective at all.

If the Japanese had the ability too, they would have done the same thing to us.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:42:17 PM EDT
No workers= No war materials/production.

No people=less resistance to invasion.

A classic case of the ends justifying the means.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:42:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dominus:

In Truman's speech about using the bomb to the Japanese he clearly states "We won the race to Atomic proportions" This indicates to me that we weren't the only one exploring this option.


An interesting story surrounds the German nuclear program. One of their cheif scientists, Werner Heisenberg (of 'Uncertainty' fame), made a very simple error when trying to determine the feasibility of a nuclear bomb in the late 1930s. Without going into too much detail, it didn't involve mathematics, and was one of those 'oh, duh' sort of errors that you feel really stupid about afterwards. Anyway, he came to the conclusion that several dozen tons of enriched uranium would be required for a single bomb, making it impractical. Thus, Germany focused on other areas of research, and never developed the bomb (though it was far ahaed of the allies in terms of nuclear physics).

Edit: Some googling shows that the details of this account are in dispute. The above is my understanding of events, but YMMV.



Heisenberg was not one to make "duh" errors. He was a pompous prick, whose only redeeming virtue was that he was fucking brilliant.

If he made an "error", he probably had a reason.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:48:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 4:49:38 PM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:50:05 PM EDT
"I hate J-ps"

-Pai Mei, Kill Bill vol. 2
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:53:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 4:55:00 PM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:56:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By piccolo:
We didn't go after Japanese Civvies.

We went under Japanese INDUSTRY.

Most of the Japanese industry was a 'cottage industry' IE small places that made parts, uniforms, etc.

Tokyo was a frame building city and a lot of production was coming out of there small places.

Burn the city and cripple the Japanese War Effort.



doesn't explain why the full scale model they used to test our napalm bombs was a traditional Japanese house, not a Japanese factory. The attitude was, "if we kill all of the workers, then we have destroyed the industry", not "let's bomb the factories to destroy the industry".

You weren't reading. The Japanese house WAS a Japanese factory. A lot of piecework got done in private homes. On top of that, killing and displacing the workers was strategically a good idea, too.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:58:21 PM EDT
Read about the behavior of the average Japanese soldier in China or the Phillipines in WWII. What we did was done to break the back of the Japanese military supply line. What they did (rape and kill EVERYONE in occupied territories) was for shits and giggles. Fuck them. They deserved it. The Nazis get all the glory for being murderous bastards because of the Holocaust, but the Japanese were every inch as evil.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:01:10 PM EDT
The civilian population of Japan was hardly blameless. They were 90% fanatics who would gladly have laid down their lives for an emporer whom they believed to be a living god.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:02:20 PM EDT
Officially, the same reason we went after Germany's population. Killing, dehousing, and breaking the will of the worker was the easiest way to hinder industrial production without smart weapons.

The real reason is because to everyone in the US at the time, they were nothing but dirty Japs.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:22:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 5:26:31 PM EDT by alaman]
Now for the historal facts. The Japanese were Emperor worshippers. The Emperor okayed the war and the Japanese people were prepared to die for what their Emperor wanted. They would not consider surrender and hundreds of thousands of Allied soldiers would have died in an invasion of Japan because every Jap would have taken up arms against us, including women and children to fulfill their Emperors wishes.

The civilian bombing was necessary to convince Hirohito the Emperor and the war lord leaders that Japan would be totally destroyed, including the people, if the Japs did not surrender.

Japan thought they were invincible. Doolittle's raid was to show the Japs otherwise as it generally served no military purpose but a psychological one to show all the people they could be bombed and were not invincible. It was also to cheer up the American people.

The fire bombings of Tokoyo and other Jap cities along with the two A Bombs convinced the people, the war lords, and the Emperor they were not invincible and would eventually lose the war. The war lords went to the Emperor and asked him for permission to surrender. Hirohito agreed. If he had not, the war would have continued.

McArthur did not prosecute Hirohito as a war criminal because of his god status. He did make Hirohito agree he was not a god and to accept the new constitution making the Emperor a figurehead. He was not prosecuted because McArthur was afraid of the Jap reaction to hanging a god.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:25:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:31:31 PM EDT
When we began bombing Japan with the B-29s, we first tried precision daylight bombing from 25k' using a mix of various sizes of HE and incendiary bombs. Our targets were industrial centers, military complexes and installations and communications infrastructure...and by communications, I mean rail, roads and other means of moving war-critical goods. For about a year, this process continued without much measured success. The industrial capacity of the Japanese was not damaged much as reflected in the numbers of machines our men had to battle in the air, on the land and at sea.

The head of the 21st Bomber Command, BGEN Haywood S. Hansell, was sacked as a result of his lack of success and was replaced by MGEN Curtis Lemay. At first, Lemay continued with daylight bombing but he soon realized that he was about to be relieved too since his results were no better than his predecessor's. After careful consideration, Lemay recognized that because of the Japanese factory enterprises, the only true way to destroy a major industrial target was to conduct area carpet bombing with thousands of the newly developed incendiary bombs. Japanese factories depended upon a network of cottage industrial sites around each major factory. Many homes and small factories had small machine tools like drill presses and lathes inside. When the fires were out, only the machines were standing.

These sites, right down to some Mama-san and her hibachi with some coal and iron ore for making bits of steel, were critical to the enemie's industrial infrastructure. By spreading the lower echelons of the factory and the subcontractors out over the city around each main plant, they made it very difficult to totally destroy a factory or other installation.

So...in order to destroy the factory, one had to destroy the entire surrounding area...and the people who lived there in their wood and paper homes. This turned out to be very easily done.

On the night of March 9-10 1945, Lemay sent 346 B-29s against Tokyo. Each had been stripped of all gun turrets except the tail with two .50cal and one 20mm. Each carried a max bomb load of incendiaries and bombed from 5,000 to 9,000 feet. When they were done, just about 16 square miles of Tokyo was burned to the ground and about 100,000 people were dead. The exact numbers are difficult to measure since the Japanese records were not very good.

After that, Lemay went after every single major city in Japan, reducing most of them to burned out cinders.

That process did most definitely have an effect on the Japanese industrial capabilities and it severely reduced their ability to make the machines of war.

The nukes did the same thing...but with one plane instead of 300.

Whether or not the Japanese bombed a military target or a city to start the war...they still attacked first, without warning and with full intent to excercise power over us. They lost and in so doing lost the ability to dictate war policy and eventually the terms of their surrender.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:33:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:

I don't think anyone can really comprehend the destruction of the lives of fifty million individual human beings.



For a start, you can figure that 50 million people from 1945 would have grown to something like 250 million people today--or, close to the entire population of the United States.

Jim
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:36:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 5:40:45 PM EDT by Dominus]

Heisenberg was not one to make "duh" errors. He was a pompous prick, whose only redeeming virtue was that he was fucking brilliant.

If he made an "error", he probably had a reason.



This is why I said it was in dispute. Historians are arguing whether his failure to correctly calculate the uranium needed for a bomb was due to a genuine misunderstanding the physics involved, or due to some moral stance against the war. Heisenberg was certainly a nationalist and an anti-semite, and did work feverishly on this project. I believe he tried to paint a rosier picture of events to ingratiate him into his new homeland, and US officials wanting to utilize his genius, readily accepted his version of events.


Within minutes of hearing the news of the radio of the Bomb being dropped on Hiroshima, Heisenburg astonished his interogators by sketching out an accurate design of the 'US' bomb…



Certainly he knew how to make a bomb; many people knew this. The unknown was how much uranium and of what level of enrichment would ensure a chain reaction. If you know this piece of info, the rest of the design is simple. Figuring this piece of info out requires an incredibly deep understanding of physics and mathematics. What is in question is whether Heisenberg knew this piece of info and withheld it, or not.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:39:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 5:44:04 PM EDT by Bostonterrier97]

Originally Posted By 97guns:
im watching a show on the history channel about bombs and we hammered their largest cities with incindiary bombs not to mention the 2 atomics we dropped. history channel estimated 200,000 dead with just the incindiaries. just wondering why we went after their civilian pop. after all they bombed our military installation in pearl harbour ?



Several Reasons...

(1.) The technology at the time did not allow much in the way of guided munitions, and bombing cities was done by all sides who had an air force.
(2.) The Japanese had a lot of light industry that was more dispersed than in Europe. Many shops were inside of or next to peoples homes. (ie. Residential Zones were mixed with Industrial Zones)
(3.) Most of the smaller buildings were made out of wood, bamboo and rice paper all of which were flammable material.
(4.) The Japanese during WWII were not known for their Humanity towards Civilians and POWs.

ETA: Le May's Firebombing Campaign reduced Japanese destroyed approximatly 2/3s of the Japanese production facilities.

Combined with the destruction of the Japanese Fleet and unrestricted Submarine Warfare (which got under way late in the War: we were sinking ships faster than they could build them). Japan's ability to wage war petered out.


Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:46:23 PM EDT
Did you miss the part about Japaneese industry?

The japaneese decided on total war.

Life's a bitch when it's finished.
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