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Posted: 3/25/2006 5:22:02 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
So what would you guys think if it escalted to cuff and stuff or guns drawn maybe shots fired? All over ice.

Local LEO's vs Military in disaster.

I've wondered that since I first read this thread. Fascinating question. Want to try a cool mental exercise? Put yourself in the guardsman's shoes. You have orders to hold and protect the truck until you hear from your immediate superior. You are armed with your M16A2. The local sheriff and two deputies show up and ask for the truck. You decline. They insist.

What would you have done?

Posted: 3/25/2006 5:23:20 PM EDT

[#2]

This isn't about right or wrong. This is about people who have Federal Power being stood up to by locally elected officials.

Any Fed agent will walk over a carpet of dead babies to maintain his power.

The sort of people who go into Fed service (other than the military) with the power to prosecute or kill are the same sorts who flocked to the Swastika. They crave power and ultimately want unlimited power other anyother person they meet.

I offer as evidence the BATFE, Federal Judges, Fed prosecutors, and any other Glock-packing Fed JBT.

Posted: 3/25/2006 5:25:55 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
He went too far whe he detained the soldier, he had no authority to do that. I agree with prosecution.
What about the people the ice was suppost to go to what about them? You can try to justify it any way you want. Needs a change in venue also.

If he has the legal authority to confiscate goods in time of an emergency, he has the power to stop people from preventing him from exercising that authority.

Posted: 3/25/2006 5:38:55 PM EDT

[#4]

SO, we have a LEO who took an oath of office, upholds that oath when the .gov is wringing thier hands over New Orleans, and now the feds want to cry about it?

Don't give me the 'my jursmyDICKtion crap' as was said in a movie.........

The SHerriff did his job when FEMA and the press was crying over NO, when most of the lives lost and property damage was to the east.

Posted: 3/25/2006 5:45:08 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Quoted:
So what would you guys think if it escalted to cuff and stuff or guns drawn maybe shots fired? All over ice.

Local LEO's vs Military in disaster.

I stated that as the worse case above in the future if the prosecution continues. I believe the problem lies in the complete lack of communication and planning, and reports of "what is needed, where" were not getting to the storage area, or they were not being acted on.

If this was about a Sheriff who wanted an 18 wheeler full of ice so his deputies would have a cool place to relax between shifts, then it would be unfounded.

As it went, the right thing was done in the end. Now it is a matter of hurt feelings about jurisdiction, not about "Theft of Ice"

I agree. But what if the soldier in charge of guarding this ice, drew his weapon to keep someone from taking it?

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:06:47 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Mississippi Ice Hero Sheriff In Hot Water

Updated: March 24th, 2006 03:41 PM EDT

HOLBROOK MOHR
Associated Press Writer

Randy Walker swears he would have died from his diabetes after Hurricane Katrina had a sheriff not seized two FEMA trucks filled with ice and distributed it to residents, many of whom had to keep their insulin cold.

Now, that sheriff could be prosecuted on charges of interfering with a federal operation.

Forrest County Sheriff Billy McGee commandeered two 18-wheelers full of ice from Camp Shelby, a Federal Emergency Management Agency staging area, after five days passed with little relief for residents living without electricity in the wake of the deadly storm.

"Man, I was wanting to hug Brother Billy when I saw that ice. We were glad somebody was there to help us," Walker, who would not give his age, said Wednesday.

McGee had worked out a deal to plead guilty to a misdemeanor charge of interfering, intimidating and impeding a federal officer, but U.S. Attorney Dunn Lampton withdrew from the case without explanation and the Justice Department sent it to federal prosecutors in Louisiana.

U.S. Attorney David R. Dugas in Baton Rogue, La., said he has not decided whether to prosecute McGee.

McGee and his attorney declined a request for an interview.

The ice trucks had been sitting idle at Camp Shelby, a National Guard base just south of Hattiesburg, before the sheriff ordered them sent to the towns of Petal and Brooklyn on Sept. 4. McGee has said his deputies detained a National Guard soldier who tried to interfere.

Residents of Forrest County have circulated a petition in support of McGee, who has been in office since 1991, and some have collected money for his defense.

"If it hadn't been for him, I'd be dead right now and I know that," Walker said. "I'll go to court for him or whatever it takes. I don't want to let him down as much as he has done for me."

Rep. Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., a critic of the federal government's response to Katrina, has urged the Justice Department not to pursue the case.

The congressman said he is "convinced that there's not a jury in the state of Mississippi that would convict the sheriff for doing what he did under the circumstances."Which is why the feds will move to case someplace far awayfrom the Sheriffs supporters.

Even though Forrest County is some 60 miles inland, the hurricane downed trees and destroyed roofs, and the power was out for weeks in much of the area.

This is without a doubt one of the dumbest things I have ever seen from the Federal government. As if they didn't have enough bad PR about Katrina bungling (which I really don't blame them too much for) NOW they insist on prosecuting someone who was acting to try and cut through all the red tape that parylized them?

What idiot thinks this is a good idea? What US Attorney is so terminally stupid that he thinks THIS is the way to make his career?

Never underestimate the ability of the Federal government to be stupid, folks.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:08:37 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
And there's the problem:

McGee has said his deputies detained a National Guard soldier who tried to interfere.

I'm torn on this one. I can see both sides of the issue. I really don't think they could get a conviction but at the same time what the Sheriff did was wrong.

Yes, what the Sheriff did was not exactly proper.

But under exigent circumstances that can be overlooked. The answer here is to use this to help build communication and cooperation between emergency responders, not to start pissing matches and prosecutions.

That is just plain bad IGR.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:10:24 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Let me tell you a story about a local Sheriff during the Katrina deal.

As some of you know I went to NO to work security. One of the things we did was guard power company fixed assests and field assests. In one area the power company had a staging area full of supplies and a helicopter. The Sheriff was out of money. So he drove a bulldozer near the staging area and gave the power company 24hrs to pay him $25,000 (to pay his deputies) or he was going to bulldoze the helicopter and supplies. He said it was rent for the power company using county owned land as a staging area. We had to send in 5 guys with AR's and full body armor to protect the helicopter.

That sheriff should be removed for malfeasance.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:11:01 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Quoted:
So what would you guys think if it escalted to cuff and stuff or guns drawn maybe shots fired? All over ice.

Local LEO's vs Military in disaster.

I've wondered that since I first read this thread. Fascinating question. Want to try a cool mental exercise? Put yourself in the guardsman's shoes. You have orders to hold and protect the truck until you hear from your immediate superior. You are armed with your M16A2. The local sheriff and two deputies show up and ask for the truck. You decline. They insist.

What would you have done?

Good question. That's hard to say, but my gut tells me I'll not get into a gunfight with a Sheriff over ice that is just sitting there with no place to go if he insists he has an immediate need. This isn't arms and munitions going to the front in war time. I'd report the incident and let the lawyers jabber at each other over it.

Now, If i knew it was being sent somewhere else and this guy was trying to hijack me I might be inclined to respond with more force.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:12:37 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
FEMA wound up throwing away tons of ice and water during this event.

The waste by them was horrendous .

And I thought they just threw away tons of my money!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:13:13 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
I think the arguement goes like this, he took relief supplies that were meant to be distrubuted, and distributed them. As the County Sheriff he probably had better knowledge of the local shelters and situation than the federal authorities.

A lot of this relief stuff is a mess. Apparently there were some that were busy moving supplies, and assets, but not filling out paperwork. They are now getting looked at, they have to account for all the $$$ spent and the cost of relief goods and services.

It seems those that were at least trying to get help to those that needed it, are now getting spanked because of "paperwork"

Meanwhile others who didn't distribute anything have spotless paperwork....................

Aha! Oly hits on a major point: During the crisis everyone demands everything be done right this minute with no worry about red tape!

But as soon as the danger is over, the very same public wants to know where all the money went.

Regulations that stop fraud and waste also stand in the way of effective emergency response in many instances.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:13:15 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
And there's the problem:

McGee has said his deputies detained a National Guard soldier who tried to interfere.

I'm torn on this one. I can see both sides of the issue. I really don't think they could get a conviction but at the same time what the Sheriff did was wrong.

Yes, what the Sheriff did was not exactly proper.

But under exigent circumstances that can be overlooked. The answer here is to use this to help build communication and cooperation between emergency responders, not to start pissing matches and prosecutions.

That is just plain bad IGR.

What if somebody was hurt during all of this?

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:13:29 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Let me tell you a story about a local Sheriff during the Katrina deal.

As some of you know I went to NO to work security. One of the things we did was guard power company fixed assests and field assests. In one area the power company had a staging area full of supplies and a helicopter. The Sheriff was out of money. So he drove a bulldozer near the staging area and gave the power company 24hrs to pay him $25,000 (to pay his deputies) or he was going to bulldoze the helicopter and supplies. He said it was rent for the power company using county owned land as a staging area. We had to send in 5 guys with AR's and full body armor to protect the helicopter.

That sheriff should be removed for malfeasance.

What a monumental 'tard. That isn't dealing with an emergency.... that's extortion and terrorism and that ass should be in jail.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:14:31 PM EDT

[#14]

I was there for 2 1/2 weeks at both Camp Shelby, Hatisburg, and at a FEMA site 20 miles south. We were briefed that local law enforcement was hi-jacking shipments of more than just ice in the week before we arrived. That NG soldier must have been HHT (supply) because we would have shot anyone trying to detain one of our people.

A platoon that went farther south actually raised weapons on some local LEO's in ST Bay that were not accustomed to being told No by anyone when they tried to gain access somewhere they had no buisness being.

Another thing. FEMA wasted ton's of money but the country has never been in a situation like that before. We guarded those trailers while there and saw hundreds of people who lost everything thought they were sent from heaven. They looked after us too though we didn't need it.

Most of the supplies I saw were well under utilized like ice and MRE's from the locals.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:14:31 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Thank God another LEO gets it.

Anyone who has actually bothered to study how government actually works instead of just whining about it knows the very same thing. Welcome to public administration! Whatever you do, it is going to be wrong!

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:18:08 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
So what would you guys think if it escalted to cuff and stuff or guns drawn maybe shots fired? All over ice.

Local LEO's vs Military in disaster.

The fact that it could come to that demonstrates how fouled up people's thinking is.

Government needs to cooperate in situations like Katrina, rather than worry about a bunch of pissy regulations and jurisdictional squabbles, which ALWAYS happens anytime anything that massive pops up. And it happens even on the same levels of government.

Remember 9/11? Remember the pissing match the FAA and the FBI had over who was going to run the investigation??

That is exactly the kind of crap we DON'T need.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:19:48 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
I stated that as the worse case above in the future if the prosecution continues. I believe the problem lies in the complete lack of communication and planning, and reports of "what is needed, where" were not getting to the storage area, or they were not being acted on.

If this was about a Sheriff who wanted an 18 wheeler full of ice so his deputies would have a cool place to relax between shifts, then it would be unfounded.

As it went, the right thing was done in the end. Now it is a matter of hurt feelings about jurisdiction, not about "Theft of Ice"

Exactly.

The entire relief effort broke down. It wasn't really anyone's fault that it broke down, because the event was so massive and the scope of the problem so huge that NOBODY could have managed it. Nevertheless, we can start smacking people when they insist on jurisdictional pissing matches in a situation where all order has completely crumbled.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:21:26 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
I've wondered that since I first read this thread. Fascinating question. Want to try a cool mental exercise? Put yourself in the guardsman's shoes. You have orders to hold and protect the truck until you hear from your immediate superior. You are armed with your M16A2. The local sheriff and two deputies show up and ask for the truck. You decline. They insist.

What would you have done?

Options:

1. Let the Sheriff have his way. Risk a butt chewing by your superior.

2. Get violent to stop the sheriff. Possibly instigate a gunfight. Possibly end up with dead people. In that case you will CERTAINLY be court-martialed and hung out to dry by the entire command structure.

ALWAYS choose option 1.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:22:58 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
I agree. But what if the soldier in charge of guarding this ice, drew his weapon to keep someone from taking it?

That would be one dumb soldier.

It is far better to answer questions about why you let that sheriff take that ice than it is to explain why you and your unit opened fire on local law enforcement over a truck of ice.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:25:19 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
What if somebody was hurt during all of this?

Then someone would end up hanging on the cross for it. And it would be whoever survived the encounter.

The soldier and the sheriff both knew this, and that is probably why nobody got hurt. I don't believe the sheriff was inclined to draw down on the soldiers, and the soldiers didn't want to draw down on the sheriff.

They all probably retained enough sense to know that would be the dumbest move in the history of man.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:27:16 PM EDT

[#21]

I've wondered that since I first read this thread. Fascinating question. Want to try a cool mental exercise? Put yourself in the guardsman's shoes. You have orders to hold and protect the truck until you hear from your immediate superior. You are armed with your M16A2. The local sheriff and two deputies show up and ask for the truck. You decline. They insist.

What would you have done?

It's loose loose all the way around. There was a shit storm from just was transpired with no shots fired. I believe it went way up the chain of command.

One thing I've found since wearing a uniform is you look at others also in uniform not much different than yourself. This factors in as does the number of people on your team. Thank God cooler heads prevail most of the time. What would have happened is a soldier would have chambered a round. Next, is anybody's guess. A LEO could draw and fire or maybe they'll leave.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:37:50 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
He went too far whe he detained the soldier, he had no authority to do that. I agree with prosecution.
What about the people the ice was suppost to go to what about them? You can try to justify it any way you want. Needs a change in venue also.

If he has the legal authority to confiscate goods in time of an emergency, he has the power to stop people from preventing him from exercising that authority.

His power is at the county level not the state or federal, he exceeded his authority and created a very
dangerous confrontation. Now its time to pay.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:41:23 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
His power is at the county level not the state or federal, he exceeded his authority and created a very
dangerous confrontation.

The lines of authority don't mean a whole lot when something like Katrina happens. Unfortunately one is usually left to do whatever is necessary to try and resolve the problem at hand. Often this doesn't play strictly by the rules, but the rules are meant to be bent and flexed in exigent circumstances.

We can never get so tied up in the rules and regulations that we loose track of why they exist in the first place and who they are supposed to serve.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:44:16 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
What if somebody was hurt during all of this?

Then someone would end up hanging on the cross for it. And it would be whoever survived the encounter.

The soldier and the sheriff both knew this, and that is probably why nobody got hurt. I don't believe the sheriff was inclined to draw down on the soldiers, and the soldiers didn't want to draw down on the sheriff.

They all probably retained enough sense to know that would be the dumbest move in the history of man.

This is over ice and nobody was hurt. Might be something of more importance next time, shots fired and blood spillled.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:54:38 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
He went too far whe he detained the soldier, he had no authority to do that. I agree with prosecution.
What about the people the ice was suppost to go to what about them? You can try to justify it any way you want. Needs a change in venue also.

If he has the legal authority to confiscate goods in time of an emergency, he has the power to stop people from preventing him from exercising that authority.

His power is at the county level not the state or federal, he exceeded his authority and created a very
dangerous confrontation. Now its time to pay.

Sir, the County Sheriff is the ONLY constiutionally elected law enforcement officer in this Nation. He is the HIGHEST law enforcement officer in the Nation, bar none.

There are some who would question the Constiutionality of both State and Federal Police. It is impossible for an elected County Sheriff in this nation to exceed his authority...assuming he violates no Constitutionally guaranteed rights or laws.

Posted: 3/25/2006 6:55:45 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
He went too far whe he detained the soldier, he had no authority to do that. I agree with prosecution.
What about the people the ice was suppost to go to what about them? You can try to justify it any way you want. Needs a change in venue also.

If he has the legal authority to confiscate goods in time of an emergency, he has the power to stop people from preventing him from exercising that authority.

His power is at the county level not the state or federal, he exceeded his authority and created a very
dangerous confrontation. Now its time to pay.

Who's county were they in? Who's State were they in?

As I understand it FEMA is supposed to "assist" local emergency managers..................................

Posted: 3/25/2006 8:06:15 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

I agree. But what if the soldier in charge of guarding this ice, drew his weapon to keep someone from taking it?

Good question, espcially if the supplies in question go beyond ice.

For a ground pounder, disobeying orders means he's gonna be in a world of hurt. He's in a tough spot in this case.

However, the Sheriff is an elected official. That means he was voted by the electorate into office unlike the Chief of Police, the Head State Trooper, the BATFE Director, the FBI Director, and any other unelected political appointee. In the USA, that means a whole goddamned lot.

I'm glad the ground pounder stood his ground. I'm even gladder the Sheriff took charge. I'm downright giddy that all involved realized they were on the same team, and drawing down on each other would have been the dumbest thing anyone could have done.

I would think that law-abiding Americans would not want to shoot each other.

I would think that law-abiding, uniform-wearing, public-serving Americans would have a damned good understanding of civics in this country, and in cases where disaster provides us with new challenges, we take a look at the Constitution and the way the Founding Fathers would have worked it out.

I think that view will prevail in this case.

The NG soldier did his duty.

The Sheriff did his duty.

In domestic incidents, the standing army is subordinate to the state and local forces, because that is the law in this country.

If the Sheriff is prosecuted, we need to march on the town and demonstrate until he is freed and reinstated with full honors. Any court outcome that has the Sheriff in the wrong is a victory of tyranny and must be resisted and challenged.

I respsect all of those who serve in all capacities, and I will resist any force that undermines the American Republic.

Posted: 3/25/2006 8:28:37 PM EDT

[#28]

The Sheriff took the initiative, cut through the beaureucratic red tape and got things taken care of.

Feds = "We cannot allow that to happen!! Or we'll be out of a job!"

Posted: 3/25/2006 8:47:20 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Sir, the County Sheriff is the ONLY constiutionally elected law enforcement officer in this Nation. He is the HIGHEST law enforcement officer in the Nation, bar none.

There are some who would question the Constiutionality of both State and Federal Police. It is impossible for an elected County Sheriff in this nation to exceed his authority...assuming he violates no Constitutionally guaranteed rights or laws.

I may be wrong here, but ...isn't the Constable the only person who technically/legally has the authority to arrest a Sheriff ?

We need some LA legalbeagles to chime in here on who trumps whom in a domestic situation Fed vs. State, Fed vs Elected Sheriff.

Posted: 3/26/2006 2:52:19 AM EDT

[#30]

One of the more interesting threads in quite a while.

Posted: 3/26/2006 3:58:19 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Quoted:

I agree. But what if the soldier in charge of guarding this ice, drew his weapon to keep someone from taking it?

Good question, espcially if the supplies in question go beyond ice.

For a ground pounder, disobeying orders means he's gonna be in a world of hurt. He's in a tough spot in this case.

However, the Sheriff is an elected official. That means he was voted by the electorate into office unlike the Chief of Police, the Head State Trooper, the BATFE Director, the FBI Director, and any other unelected political appointee. In the USA, that means a whole goddamned lot.

I'm glad the ground pounder stood his ground. I'm even gladder the Sheriff took charge. I'm downright giddy that all involved realized they were on the same team, and drawing down on each other would have been the dumbest thing anyone could have done.

I would think that law-abiding Americans would not want to shoot each other.

I would think that law-abiding, uniform-wearing, public-serving Americans would have a damned good understanding of civics in this country, and in cases where disaster provides us with new challenges, we take a look at the Constitution and the way the Founding Fathers would have worked it out.

I think that view will prevail in this case.

The NG soldier did his duty.

The Sheriff did his duty.

In domestic incidents, the standing army is subordinate to the state and local forces, because that is the law in this country.

If the Sheriff is prosecuted, we need to march on the town and demonstrate until he is freed and reinstated with full honors. Any court outcome that has the Sheriff in the wrong is a victory of tyranny and must be resisted and challenged.

I respsect all of those who serve in all capacities, and I will resist any force that undermines the American Republic.

This is the biggest bunch of shit I have heard in a while. So many on this web site are anti government its sickens me. Theft is a victory of tyranny? lol Have any tea partys lately. Maybe we could have this go down in history as an ice party but there are no bays to dump it in and it would just melt.

Posted: 3/26/2006 4:28:34 AM EDT

[#32]

Right is right, wrong is wrong?
EXCEPT IN EMERGENCIES OR LIFE AND DEATH SITUATIONS.
Exception: He saved lives and did what he felt was necessary to do this. The sad part is the media and the f'in Feds are going to make a example out of him.
How many of those Fed morons have been in a natural disaster?
How many of them can say they were there helping at anytime during this disaster?
How many of them are helping now?
How many can say they would have the balls to do what he did?
I don't know the sheriff or all of the people he saved that day with his decision. But I do know this, "HE DID SAVE LIVES IN THE MIDDLE OF A NATURAL DISASTER ZONE!"
He made a difficult decision while FEMA sit on their dead asses and let people suffer. The lack of leadership during that whole process is just one of the major things thats wrong with the Fed Gov.
(the list is long)
If they prosecute him for this, them damn all of them to hell!!!

Thank God we have people who will stand up and do what is necessary in a time of emergency.
He did right! He deserves a medal for his actions. Not the opposite.

Posted: 3/26/2006 4:43:29 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Sir, the County Sheriff is the ONLY constiutionally elected law enforcement officer in this Nation. He is the HIGHEST law enforcement officer in the Nation, bar none.

There are some who would question the Constiutionality of both State and Federal Police. It is impossible for an elected County Sheriff in this nation to exceed his authority...assuming he violates no Constitutionally guaranteed rights or laws.

I may be wrong here, but ...isn't the Constable the only person who technically/legally has the authority to arrest a Sheriff ?

This is true, based on the fact that the Constable (in Texas Anyway) is the senior officer of the Justice courts, and in theory, would be the person responsible for serving an arrest warrant on the Sheriff (Or the President, etc..) that was issued by the court. That said, the Sheriff is by law, the highest ranking LEO in the County. When the SHTF, He's (She's) the man...

When in doubt, get behind the Sheriff. To him, you're a voter, and probably a neighbor. To FEMA and the FEDS, you are little more than a serf, and most likely, a pain in thier ass. They don't have your best interest at heart.
Of the two, which of them do you figure will most likely support a civilian militia? Which of them would most likely try to seperate you from your weapons /home /shelter?

I can't beleive the posts trying to side with the FEMA drones (NG) on this one. It would seem there are a few weekend warriors on this forum that are a bit stricken with the "respect my authority" syndrome that everyone generally labels on the LEO's.

FEMA dropped the ball with Katrina, and at least in this instance, this county Sheriff picked it up and scored.
Good job Sheriff!!!

Posted: 3/26/2006 4:53:01 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Sir, the County Sheriff is the ONLY constiutionally elected law enforcement officer in this Nation. He is the HIGHEST law enforcement officer in the Nation, bar none.

There are some who would question the Constiutionality of both State and Federal Police. It is impossible for an elected County Sheriff in this nation to exceed his authority...assuming he violates no Constitutionally guaranteed rights or laws.

I may be wrong here, but ...isn't the Constable the only person who technically/legally has the authority to arrest a Sheriff ?

This is true, based on the fact that the Constable (in Texas Anyway) is the senior officer of the Justice courts, and in theory, would be the person responsible for serving an arrest warrant on the Sheriff (Or the President, etc..) that was issued by the court. That said, the Sheriff is by law, the highest ranking LEO in the County. When the SHTF, He's (She's) the man...

When in doubt, get behind the Sheriff. To him, you're a voter, and probably a neighbor. To FEMA and the FEDS, you are little more than a serf, and most likely, a pain in thier ass. They don't have your best interest at heart.
Of the two, which of them do you figure will most likely support a civilian militia? Which of them would most likely try to seperate you from your weapons /home /shelter?

I can't beleive the posts trying to side with the FEMA drones (NG) on this one. It would seem there are a few weekend warriors on this forum that are a bit stricken with the "respect my authority" syndrome that everyone generally labels on the LEO's.

FEMA dropped the ball with Katrina, and at least in this instance, this county Sheriff picked it up and scored.
Good job Sheriff!!!

Say what you want about FEMA, I am talking about taking goverment property with out autorization that was being guarded by the National guard who had been mobilized. Also, taking the guardsmen into custody. Way beyond a basketball game and scoreing points.

I for one feel the lack of respect for authority is the greatest problem in this country. Its not your fault, I blame your parents for failing you.

Posted: 3/26/2006 5:25:43 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
I for one feel the lack of respect for authority is the greatest problem in this country. Its not your fault, I blame your parents for failing you.

And there-in lies the REAL problem. Respect is EARNED. The gov't has done VERY little to earn MY respect. In case you forgot, the govt is SUPPOSED to be subserviant to the people. That is most definitely not the case today. I have been a law abiding citizen my entire life, yet I am not respected nor trusted by my own govt. I am supposed to have "respect for authority"?

I respect NO authority that does not respect me, especially when the only authority they have is bestowed by me (the people).
I do however have a TON of respect, for people such as this particular Sheriff. He earn my respect by doing what he had to do to save peoples lives.
There are some anti-gov people here, yes. But most are simply tired of govt BS. I want a govt that does what it is supposed to do, according to the Constitution. From the President all the way down to the rookie Patrolman.

Fundamental reading:
The Bill of Rights
United States Constitution

Bottom line. End of discussion. Trumps everything.

Posted: 3/26/2006 5:27:31 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Sir, the County Sheriff is the ONLY constiutionally elected law enforcement officer in this Nation. He is the HIGHEST law enforcement officer in the Nation, bar none.

There are some who would question the Constiutionality of both State and Federal Police. It is impossible for an elected County Sheriff in this nation to exceed his authority...assuming he violates no Constitutionally guaranteed rights or laws.

I may be wrong here, but ...isn't the Constable the only person who technically/legally has the authority to arrest a Sheriff ?

This is true, based on the fact that the Constable (in Texas Anyway) is the senior officer of the Justice courts, and in theory, would be the person responsible for serving an arrest warrant on the Sheriff (Or the President, etc..) that was issued by the court. That said, the Sheriff is by law, the highest ranking LEO in the County. When the SHTF, He's (She's) the man...

When in doubt, get behind the Sheriff. To him, you're a voter, and probably a neighbor. To FEMA and the FEDS, you are little more than a serf, and most likely, a pain in thier ass. They don't have your best interest at heart.
Of the two, which of them do you figure will most likely support a civilian militia? Which of them would most likely try to seperate you from your weapons /home /shelter?

I can't beleive the posts trying to side with the FEMA drones (NG) on this one. It would seem there are a few weekend warriors on this forum that are a bit stricken with the "respect my authority" syndrome that everyone generally labels on the LEO's.

FEMA dropped the ball with Katrina, and at least in this instance, this county Sheriff picked it up and scored.
Good job Sheriff!!!

Say what you want about FEMA, I am talking about taking goverment property with out autorization that was being guarded by the National guard who had been mobilized. Also, taking the guardsmen into custody. Way beyond a basketball game and scoreing points.

I for one feel the lack of respect for authority is the greatest problem in this country. Its not your fault, I blame your parents for failing you.

You should get out more. We've got much bigger problems to worry about.
I for one, think we should be actively questioning authority in this country.
I'll be happy to respect the FED's and FEMA's authority. As soon as they earn it.
Oh, and one other thing Skippy. Lay off the personal insults. It makes you look small.

About respecting authority, and my parents and the other BS you're slinging, Give it a rest.
You are way out of your league. You don't have a clue. Me and mine have done our bit for God and country. We have the scars, and folded flags to prove it.

My parents did a FINE job of teaching me respect for authority. And more important, when to question it.
Some folks are content to be sheep. I'm not one of them.

Posted: 3/26/2006 5:41:37 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I for one feel the lack of respect for authority is the greatest problem in this country. Its not your fault, I blame your parents for failing you.

And there-in lies the REAL problem. Respect is EARNED. The gov't has done VERY little to earn MY respect. In case you forgot, the govt is SUPPOSED to be subserviant to the people. That is most definitely not the case today. I have been a law abiding citizen my entire life, yet I am not respected nor trusted by my own govt. I am supposed to have "respect for authority"? I respect NO authority that does not respect me, especially when the only authority they have is bestowed by me (the people).
I do however have a TON of respect, for people such as this particular Sheriff. He earn my respect by doing what he had to do to save peoples lives.
There are some anti-gov people here, yes. But most are simply tired of govt BS. I want a govt that does what it is supposed to do, according to the Constitution. From the President all the way down to the rookie Patrolman.

Fundamental reading:
The Bill of Rights
United States Constitution

Bottom line. End of discussion. Trumps everything.

You really did not think I would expect any other responce from you do you? LOL Rights come with responcibility.

Posted: 3/26/2006 5:44:25 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Sir, the County Sheriff is the ONLY constiutionally elected law enforcement officer in this Nation. He is the HIGHEST law enforcement officer in the Nation, bar none.

There are some who would question the Constiutionality of both State and Federal Police. It is impossible for an elected County Sheriff in this nation to exceed his authority...assuming he violates no Constitutionally guaranteed rights or laws.

I may be wrong here, but ...isn't the Constable the only person who technically/legally has the authority to arrest a Sheriff ?

This is true, based on the fact that the Constable (in Texas Anyway) is the senior officer of the Justice courts, and in theory, would be the person responsible for serving an arrest warrant on the Sheriff (Or the President, etc..) that was issued by the court. That said, the Sheriff is by law, the highest ranking LEO in the County. When the SHTF, He's (She's) the man...

When in doubt, get behind the Sheriff. To him, you're a voter, and probably a neighbor. To FEMA and the FEDS, you are little more than a serf, and most likely, a pain in thier ass. They don't have your best interest at heart.
Of the two, which of them do you figure will most likely support a civilian militia? Which of them would most likely try to seperate you from your weapons /home /shelter?

I can't beleive the posts trying to side with the FEMA drones (NG) on this one. It would seem there are a few weekend warriors on this forum that are a bit stricken with the "respect my authority" syndrome that everyone generally labels on the LEO's.

FEMA dropped the ball with Katrina, and at least in this instance, this county Sheriff picked it up and scored.
Good job Sheriff!!!

Say what you want about FEMA, I am talking about taking goverment property with out autorization that was being guarded by the National guard who had been mobilized. Also, taking the guardsmen into custody. Way beyond a basketball game and scoreing points.

I for one feel the lack of respect for authority is the greatest problem in this country. Its not your fault, I blame your parents for failing you.

You should get out more. We've got much bigger problems to worry about.
I for one, think we should be actively questioning authority in this country.
I'll be happy to respect the FED's and FEMA's authority. As soon as they earn it.
Oh, and one other thing Skippy. Lay off the personal insults. It makes you look small.

About respecting authority, and my parents and the other BS you're slinging, Give it a rest.
You are way out of your league. You don't have a clue. Me and mine have done our bit for God and country. We have the scars, and folded flags to prove it.

My parents did a FINE job of teaching me respect for authority. And more important, when to question it.
Some folks are content to be sheep. I'm not one of them.

Out of my league? Why is it almost every responce I read has a sports tone to it and you ask me to get out more. LOL If you are responcible act like it, other wise your the problem not the cure.

Posted: 3/26/2006 6:13:18 AM EDT

[#39]

Despite my better judgement, I'm going to throw my dog into this fight.

It is really sickening to see the same people who despise the media in their portrayals and sterotypes of guns and ownership, among other things - to take everything they hear about FEMA as gospel from the mountain when they see it on tv.

First, the sheriff is wrong. Pure and simple... sure he allegedly saved one diabetic's life - how many died or were otherwise affected by his cavalier diversion of supplies needed on the gulfcoast? His area is NOT the disaster zone, except on paper.

Waste - Yes, there are surplus trailers in staging. Because local officials will not allow the dispersal (zoning and property value preservation) of these trailers to the folks that need them. Cut and dried. If anyone here can give me exact numbers of the supplies that will be needed in the next disaster - PLEASE let me know and I can forward that info up the chain.

I work FEMA housing in southern MS. I have been home for 3 days since the storm. We work 6 days a week. People on here talk about the "feds" and the ".gov" and ball it up into one nice all-encompassing ball. Truth be told, we are on the road all day everyday doing our jobs to improve quality of life, even if it means "moving up" to a 8' by 30' trailer. The people that have the biggest problems and wagging fingers with us, oddly - seem to be the people that are not here.

Posted: 3/26/2006 6:37:33 AM EDT

[#40]

Out of my league? Why is it almost every responce I read has a sports tone to it and you ask me to get out more. LOL If you are responcible act like it, other wise your the problem not the cure.

Sorry, I was trying to use language you might understand. I guess I didn't break it down simple enough. It really doesn't matter. I've said my piece on the subject. Feel free to continue to babble. If you must...

Posted: 3/26/2006 6:44:15 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Quoted:

I agree. But what if the soldier in charge of guarding this ice, drew his weapon to keep someone from taking it?

Good question, espcially if the supplies in question go beyond ice.

For a ground pounder, disobeying orders means he's gonna be in a world of hurt. He's in a tough spot in this case.

However, the Sheriff is an elected official. That means he was voted by the electorate into office unlike the Chief of Police, the Head State Trooper, the BATFE Director, the FBI Director, and any other unelected political appointee. In the USA, that means a whole goddamned lot.

I'm glad the ground pounder stood his ground. I'm even gladder the Sheriff took charge. I'm downright giddy that all involved realized they were on the same team, and drawing down on each other would have been the dumbest thing anyone could have done.

I would think that law-abiding Americans would not want to shoot each other.

I would think that law-abiding, uniform-wearing, public-serving Americans would have a damned good understanding of civics in this country, and in cases where disaster provides us with new challenges, we take a look at the Constitution and the way the Founding Fathers would have worked it out.

I think that view will prevail in this case.

The NG soldier did his duty.

The Sheriff did his duty.

In domestic incidents, the standing army is subordinate to the state and local forces, because that is the law in this country.

If the Sheriff is prosecuted, we need to march on the town and demonstrate until he is freed and reinstated with full honors. Any court outcome that has the Sheriff in the wrong is a victory of tyranny and must be resisted and challenged.

I respsect all of those who serve in all capacities, and I will resist any force that undermines the American Republic.

So just because the Sheriff is locally elected his authority trumps whatever orders the soldier is issued by his chain of command? Hmmm.

And I don't think the NG did his job. If he did his job the ice never would have been removed from his post.

Again what if it was something more than ice? I could see shots being fired over something like this.

Posted: 3/26/2006 7:44:23 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Again what if it was something more than ice? I could see shots being fired over something like this.

Extrapoliting into "What If's" isn't the point.

FEMA was there with supplies ready. Many local governments didn't have a complete disaster plan in order to guide them to the correct spots at the optimum speed, so they had to start from scratch (NOLA being worse example).

I see this as the Sheriff being made aware of a severe problem, finding a solution, and implementing it, since nobody else seemed to be doing that.

It was 2 reefers of ice, 1 to sent to each of TWO towns, it isn't like he stole 50% of FEMA's stores in order to make sure his voters were comfortable.

I have been saying quite often lately: Right and Wrong are getting more and more mixed up and distant from Legal and Illegal.

I know I started by stating I don't like playing "what if", but this one is about the ice, not "What if he commandeered a couple bradely's and a crate of weapons". What if he was told the ice wasn't slated to be delievered to his town, and also told him it wasn't slated to be delivered anywyere, as of that moment. Knowing this, he decides not to mess with the .gov, since they know everything that is happening in the several thousand square mile AO.

Because he followed orders/chain of command instead of logic, a guy duys from spoiled insulin. I could see the papers smearing this Sheriff for "knowing a solution but being a coward", or worse, in todays world, sued for negligent manslaughter (not a stretch of legal imagination). No matter which action he chose at the time, he was going to catch flak, either from the gov't, or his conciense. He made the Right decision in his mind, and acted to protect the public.

I believe this news article is punishment enough for him in the way of embarrassment. If arresting/diverting (not sure exactly what the deal was with the NG soldier) was done in a way which was "Wrong", we definately would have heard about it at the time. Now that extra info is thrown in to villanize the Sheriff a bit more, in case some people think he did the right thing.

Posted: 3/26/2006 8:03:41 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Again what if it was something more than ice? I could see shots being fired over something like this.

Extrapoliting into "What If's" isn't the point.

FEMA was there with supplies ready. Many local governments didn't have a complete disaster plan in order to guide them to the correct spots at the optimum speed, so they had to start from scratch (NOLA being worse example).

I see this as the Sheriff being made aware of a severe problem, finding a solution, and implementing it, since nobody else seemed to be doing that.

It was 2 reefers of ice, 1 to sent to each of TWO towns, it isn't like he stole 50% of FEMA's stores in order to make sure his voters were comfortable.

I have been saying quite often lately: Right and Wrong are getting more and more mixed up and distant from Legal and Illegal.

I know I started by stating I don't like playing "what if", but this one is about the ice, not "What if he commandeered a couple bradely's and a crate of weapons". What if he was told the ice wasn't slated to be delievered to his town, and also told him it wasn't slated to be delivered anywyere, as of that moment. Knowing this, he decides not to mess with the .gov, since they know everything that is happening in the several thousand square mile AO.

Because he followed orders/chain of command instead of logic, a guy duys from spoiled insulin. I could see the papers smearing this Sheriff for "knowing a solution but being a coward", or worse, in todays world, sued for negligent manslaughter (not a stretch of legal imagination). No matter which action he chose at the time, he was going to catch flak, either from the gov't, or his conciense. He made the Right decision in his mind, and acted to protect the public.

I believe this news article is punishment enough for him in the way of embarrassment. If arresting/diverting (not sure exactly what the deal was with the NG soldier) was done in a way which was "Wrong", we definately would have heard about it at the time. Now that extra info is thrown in to villanize the Sheriff a bit more, in case some people think he did the right thing.

Just for the sake of argument how could he take control of the national guard soldier in a way that was right in this situation? This is not a what if as he appearently did take control of him. To me its a much bigger issue then the ice.

What about the soldiers consitutional rights? Detained for doing his job by a sheriff who comes on the National Guard Base and decides he will take what he wants. Some hero.

Posted: 3/26/2006 8:17:40 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

I agree. But what if the soldier in charge of guarding this ice, drew his weapon to keep someone from taking it?

Good question, espcially if the supplies in question go beyond ice.

For a ground pounder, disobeying orders means he's gonna be in a world of hurt. He's in a tough spot in this case.

However, the Sheriff is an elected official. That means he was voted by the electorate into office unlike the Chief of Police, the Head State Trooper, the BATFE Director, the FBI Director, and any other unelected political appointee. In the USA, that means a whole goddamned lot.

I'm glad the ground pounder stood his ground. I'm even gladder the Sheriff took charge. I'm downright giddy that all involved realized they were on the same team, and drawing down on each other would have been the dumbest thing anyone could have done.

I would think that law-abiding Americans would not want to shoot each other.

I would think that law-abiding, uniform-wearing, public-serving Americans would have a damned good understanding of civics in this country, and in cases where disaster provides us with new challenges, we take a look at the Constitution and the way the Founding Fathers would have worked it out.

I think that view will prevail in this case.

The NG soldier did his duty.

The Sheriff did his duty.

In domestic incidents, the standing army is subordinate to the state and local forces, because that is the law in this country.

If the Sheriff is prosecuted, we need to march on the town and demonstrate until he is freed and reinstated with full honors. Any court outcome that has the Sheriff in the wrong is a victory of tyranny and must be resisted and challenged.

I respsect all of those who serve in all capacities, and I will resist any force that undermines the American Republic.

This is the biggest bunch of shit I have heard in a while. So many on this web site are anti government its sickens me. Theft is a victory of tyranny? lol Have any tea partys lately. Maybe we could have this go down in history as an ice party but there are no bays to dump it in and it would just melt.

If you don't like the fact that many here back a public figure doing the right thing, maybe you should leave.

Remember your fondness for the feds when they decide that we no longer need firearms, and they come to collect yours.

FEMA neglected to do shit for any place except NO for the first few weeks, and they are pissed that the local sherriff had the gumption to take action. Sorry to tell you this, but his local area is just that.
The big crapper in all of this is that FEMA ignored the entire Gulf Coast while worrying about NO, when NO didn't take the brunt of the storm.

FEMA was a fucking joke. Every day I was down there, FEMA was making daily changes as to what it was and was not going to do. It was a clusterfuck.

And this sherriff had enough, and saw that nothing was being done to help the people in his area that needed help. SO he fixed that problem.

Don, if you don't like it, that is fine. We can all see that you are on the side of the government, and that the government can do no wrong in your eves. SO with that eing said, why don't you find a website where you have likeminded sheelple, and can bleat about how great the government is, while people who can see past their noses discuss the failings, and the proper successus of the government.

Posted: 3/26/2006 8:27:42 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

I agree. But what if the soldier in charge of guarding this ice, drew his weapon to keep someone from taking it?

Good question, espcially if the supplies in question go beyond ice.

For a ground pounder, disobeying orders means he's gonna be in a world of hurt. He's in a tough spot in this case.

However, the Sheriff is an elected official. That means he was voted by the electorate into office unlike the Chief of Police, the Head State Trooper, the BATFE Director, the FBI Director, and any other unelected political appointee. In the USA, that means a whole goddamned lot.

I'm glad the ground pounder stood his ground. I'm even gladder the Sheriff took charge. I'm downright giddy that all involved realized they were on the same team, and drawing down on each other would have been the dumbest thing anyone could have done.

I would think that law-abiding Americans would not want to shoot each other.

I would think that law-abiding, uniform-wearing, public-serving Americans would have a damned good understanding of civics in this country, and in cases where disaster provides us with new challenges, we take a look at the Constitution and the way the Founding Fathers would have worked it out.

I think that view will prevail in this case.

The NG soldier did his duty.

The Sheriff did his duty.

In domestic incidents, the standing army is subordinate to the state and local forces, because that is the law in this country.

If the Sheriff is prosecuted, we need to march on the town and demonstrate until he is freed and reinstated with full honors. Any court outcome that has the Sheriff in the wrong is a victory of tyranny and must be resisted and challenged.

I respsect all of those who serve in all capacities, and I will resist any force that undermines the American Republic.

This is the biggest bunch of shit I have heard in a while. So many on this web site are anti government its sickens me. Theft is a victory of tyranny? lol Have any tea partys lately. Maybe we could have this go down in history as an ice party but there are no bays to dump it in and it would just melt.

If you don't like the fact that many here back a public figure doing the right thing, maybe you should leave.

Remember your fondness for the feds when they decide that we no longer need firearms, and they come to collect yours.

FEMA neglected to do shit for any place except NO for the first few weeks, and they are pissed that the local sherriff had the gumption to take action. Sorry to tell you this, but his local area is just that.
The big crapper in all of this is that FEMA ignored the entire Gulf Coast while worrying about NO, when NO didn't take the brunt of the storm.

FEMA was a fucking joke. Every day I was down there, FEMA was making daily changes as to what it was and was not going to do. It was a clusterfuck.

And this sherriff had enough, and saw that nothing was being done to help the people in his area that needed help. SO he fixed that problem.

Don, if you don't like it, that is fine. We can all see that you are on the side of the government, and that the government can do no wrong in your eves. SO with that eing said, why don't you find a website where you have likeminded sheelple, and can bleat about how great the government is, while people who can see past their noses discuss the failings, and the proper successus of the government.

When you are fighting for what is right you do not run when faced by those who oppose you!

Posted: 3/26/2006 8:29:28 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
And there's the problem:

McGee has said his deputies detained a National Guard soldier who tried to interfere.

I'm torn on this one. I can see both sides of the issue. I really don't think they could get a conviction but at the same time what the Sheriff did was wrong.

Horseshit.

Posted: 3/26/2006 8:31:06 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

So just because the Sheriff is locally elected his authority trumps whatever orders the soldier is issued by his chain of command? Hmmm.

And I don't think the NG did his job. If he did his job the ice never would have been removed from his post.

Again what if it was something more than ice? I could see shots being fired over something like this.

Bama
Good points again. There's no easy answer. What I was trying to point out is that shots were not fired, even though the NG trooper had to violate his First General Order and the Sheriff likely exceeded his authority for the situation to end up like it did.

The net-net is that the ice was put to use where it was needed immediately. Sometimes broken rules can have good outcomes.

I'm sure the situation will arise again in more desperate times with bigger stakes.

One hopes the people in the fedgov and the civil authorities in any locality have the good sense to not order their people to shoot at each other when working to service a disaster area. That just seems like a line we don't even need to get close to crossing.

Posted: 3/26/2006 8:35:21 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

This is the biggest bunch of shit I have heard in a while. So many on this web site are anti government its sickens me. Theft is a victory of tyranny? lol Have any tea partys lately. Maybe we could have this go down in history as an ice party but there are no bays to dump it in and it would just melt.

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add "within the limits of the law" because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Thomas Jefferson Letter to Isaac H. Tiffany (1819)

Posted: 3/26/2006 8:36:33 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Just for the sake of argument how could he take control of the national guard soldier in a way that was right in this situation? This is not a what if as he appearently did take control of him. To me its a much bigger issue then the ice.

What about the soldiers consitutional rights? Detained for doing his job by a sheriff who comes on the National Guard Base and decides he will take what he wants. Some hero.

Show me the TO or published chain of command to be used between Municipal LEO, County Sheriff, FEMA Nat'l Guard, and the UN.

After we look at that, we will know what the "Proper" thing to do was.

Posted: 3/26/2006 8:36:42 AM EDT

[#50]

Would you guys be cool with a Sheriff running out to the interstate to intercept a convoy of goods bound for another area so he can distribute goods to his community? Detaining military people in the process?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Local Sheriff getting prosecuted by feds for distributing unused FEMA ice to Katrina survivors (Page 2 of 3)

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