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Posted: 3/24/2006 9:04:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 9:08:21 AM EDT by Spade]
Goddamnit guys (unless this is a dupe), when something kinda important happens locally, don't just post it in Hometown. Nobody goes anywhere but their own state.

From a blog:

www.saysuncle.com/archives/2006/03/23/oh_dear-5/


ATF searches local’s home, who happens to be my friend
Posted in Guns by SayUncle on March 23rd, 2006

This will probably be in the paper tomorrow.

Reader, commenter, arfcommer, and friend Shoot-N-Scoot just called to tell me that:

*The ATF is at his house

*They’re asking if he has any machine guns

*They have seized his house pending approval of a search warrant

*Told him he was free to go but they were going to search his house

He did the smart thing and left. He also called his lawyer. He (like me) is one of those gun owners who meticulously follows the law to avoid trouble. In that situation, I, myself, would be wondering if I had all my I’s dotted and T’s crossed as there are a lot of technicalities out there. His only crime is apparently marrying his ex-wife, who has supposedly called the ATF and said he has machine guns. He does not have machine guns and is one of my friends who I build AR-15s with.

He asked that I spread the word. More details as I get them.

Update: Oh, and when he called, the first words out of his mouth were:

The ATF is here.

And the next words out of his mouth were:

They have some nice AR-15s with EOTech 552s

Only a true gun nut takes the time to admire the equipment being used in a situation like that.



www.saysuncle.com/archives/2006/03/24/scoot_update/

Scoot update
Posted in Guns by SayUncle on March 24th, 2006

In an update to my friend and his visit from the ATF, the ATF just called him as I was on the phone with him, they stated they had a warrant now, and asked him to come open the house or they’d bust his door down.

It does beg the question: why did they not show up with a warrant in the first place?




www.saysuncle.com/archives/2006/03/24/scoot_update_-_2/

Scoot update - 2
Posted in Guns by SayUncle on March 24th, 2006

Programming note: Instead of multiple posts, I’ll put any of today’s updates here. Check back.

Background here and here. Just talked to his girlfriend. And the updates are:

He has been arrested
A hearing is scheduled this afternoon

They took his guns, some books, and drawings he had

They’ve been there all night

They are currently taking his milling machine

They keep telling his girlfriend You know he was making machine guns, right? Which he was not. He was finishing up some 0% lower receiver castings for semi-auto AR-15s, which is a lawful activity.

When it comes to gun laws, gun enthusiasts do act at their own peril.

Update: My scientific wild ass guess is they’re going for the constructive possession angle. Their prosecution, if it gets that far, will go something like:

He has parts (none of which are full auto, by the way);

He has books;

He has a milling machine;

In a random number of hours, he could possibly assemble a machine gun.

Update 2: Thanks to a reader, I have been put in contact with a gun rights attorney who is interested in the case.

Update 3: Got an in with the NRA, NRA-ILA and their civil defense fund. Looks promising, I’ll let you know. If the latter does not work out, I may set up a fund. I was also told there’s a small and pricey legal industry that specifically caters to addressing issues with the ATF. I will put Scoot into contact with some of these folks once I hear he has been released.

Update 4: And his local legal counsel is apparently on the scene, making calls and doing what they do. The folks mentioned in Update 3 told me that’s good but he’ll eventually need someone with firearms law expertise.

5: A gun rights attorney has told me there is particular interest in this case because Tennessee apparently has a high number of reported ATF abuses. I found that quite interesting. I think it may be the result of Tennessee being a fairly gun-friendly state.

6: A few more thoughts:

Regarding the fact this was initiated by his ex (whom he has confided in me in the past that she has threatened to call the police on him for his guns), why is the word of an estrange ex considered probable cause or reasonable?




So, but without any more information, looks like the ATF wants another case and has decided to pull out that "constructive intent and possession" bullshit again.


ETA: WTH? I just read the first one more closely. This guy's from here? I haven't seen anything on this here yet?

Link to SayUncle's Hometown post: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=38&t=227513
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:09:22 AM EDT
Tag for updates.

That is not cool at all...
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:11:04 AM EDT
Also tagged. Best of luck to s-n-s.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:13:04 AM EDT
Holy shit!
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:14:25 AM EDT
Tag.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:14:56 AM EDT
Maybe the Second Amendment Foundation should also hear about this.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:15:48 AM EDT
There isn't ever going to be a revolution over guns.

One by one they're going to take us down and ruin us financially until more and more people decide it's just too damn risky to own firearms anymore.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:16:31 AM EDT
Outrage!
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:16:49 AM EDT
Tag
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:17:06 AM EDT
Fuck those cocksuckers at the ATF!

Scoot should have called a lawyer the second that the ATF showed up and had him looking over their shoulders every step of the way.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:17:09 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:17:42 AM EDT
Holy Fuck

Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:17:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:18:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:19:09 AM EDT
Good luck to him. Hopefully, the truth will come out and everything will be alright.

HH
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:20:10 AM EDT

They have seized his house pending approval of a search warrant


How the hell does that work?
Fuck the ATF - the whole lot of 'em are nothing more than a group of cheap thugs.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:20:16 AM EDT
Tag
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:20:41 AM EDT
TFU
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:21:15 AM EDT



i hate the ATF.


Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:21:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 9:22:43 AM EDT by 3rdpig]

Originally Posted By Spade:

Regarding the fact this was initiated by his ex (whom he has confided in me in the past that she has threatened to call the police on him for his guns), why is the word of an estrange ex considered probable cause or reasonable?




Probably because there have been other complaints, or he's got priors of some kind such as domestic abuse, or she claimed he threatened her and she, and maybe the kids too if there are any, are in fear of their life because of it.

About the worst thing a law abiding gun owning man can do is get his ex-wife pissed at him. I treat my ex-wife with kid gloves for just this reason. One phone call to the cops and your guns are gone.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:21:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:22:04 AM EDT
Damn, that just blows...

I sincerely hope he is cleared of all charges and can SUE THE SHIT OUT OF THE EX for causing him all of this trouble.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:22:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:
Good luck to him. Hopefully, the truth will come out and everything will be alright.

HH



Agreed, but even so.. assuming he is innocent, he will still be out some cash, and worse the upper ATF guys (who are malicious and/or incompetent (well, maybe )) who ordered this will still be "doing" their "job".
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:22:26 AM EDT
What the hell is wrong with these people?

How about this? GO BUST SOME REAL FUCKING CRIMINALS!
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:22:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bullyforyou:


i hate the ATF.





+ a million
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:23:47 AM EDT
I AGREE THAT THIS IS REALLY FUCKED UP, I JUST HOPE HE WAS COMPLIYING WITH ALL THE LAWS.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:24:02 AM EDT
You know something? We all give the local law a bunch of grief over the possibility that they'll be the ones confiscating guns someday. They've got nothing on the ATF.

1. Fire your legislators.
2. Abolish the ATF.
3. Thank your local cop for not being a cock sucking, gun grabbing, shit stained excuse for a cum guzzling "constructive intent" asswipe.

Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:25:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shotar:
A couple of questions. How many guns per year can a private person manufacture for their own personal use and not for resale? I thought it was one.

How many was he working on " finishing " or rather manufacturing without a manufacturer's license?

Has he been charged? or not?

If he has, he seems pretty nonchalant about it given that he posted just yesterday about attending a local shoot.



As many as one wants, so long as it is not for resale. Ever been on the AK side of the board? Some of them have prolly built (from an 80% reciever) 15-20 AKs in a year.

Nice way of putting it. Like I said before, you can mfg as many as you want for your own personal use. Just don't sell them.

As usual, what happened here was the JBTs from ATF, in their boner-popping hurry to nail a lawful gunowner, took the word from an ex-wife. Jesus Christ - what kind of police work is that? You listen to a man's ex-wife? Not like it matters anyway. I'll pray for him - once the ATF wants you, they'll get you. I'm sure there will be some parts planted, or rifles will malfunction, and he'll be in possesiong of unregistered MGs.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:25:16 AM EDT
Tag for updates.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:25:56 AM EDT
Even if he's found innocent, they just bankrupted him.

That's how it works.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:26:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shotar:
A couple of questions. How many guns per year can a private person manufacture for their own personal use and not for resale? I thought it was one.




Pretty sure it's as many as you want.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:27:03 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:27:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:27:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 9:28:36 AM EDT by bullyforyou]

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Even if he's found innocent, they just bankrupted him.

That's how it works.



yep. nothing like getting your tax dollars used to persecute you.



Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:27:54 AM EDT
the x wife should be shot execution style for bringing all of this shit down on him like that, dumb bitch
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:27:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shotar:
A couple of questions. How many guns per year can a private person manufacture for their own personal use and not for resale? I thought it was one.

How many was he working on " finishing " or rather manufacturing without a manufacturer's license?

Has he been charged? or not?

If he has, he seems pretty nonchalant about it given that he posted just yesterday about attending a local shoot.



There is no limit to manufacturing guns for yourself... as long as you are able to legally own what your making, no issues at all. Can't produce them for resale, but that's not a big issue.

Just remember, David Koresh was also supposedly making machine guns!
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:28:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shotar:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

They have seized his house pending approval of a search warrant


How the hell does that work?
Fuck the ATF - the whole lot of 'em are nothing more than a group of cheap thugs.



How it works is that they surround the place and don't search allowing the owners to come and go as they please until the search warrant arrives. They show up without one first on the off chance that a person with nothing to hide would let them in for a chat and look around to prove to them that there is nothing wrong going on there.



I understand that.
But if you don't have sufficient evidence for a warrant, how the hell can you do that?
WTF! Prove that there is nothing wrong going on? I think you have roles a little confused here.
It is the job of LE to prove that there is SOMETHING wrong, it is not my job to prove that I am innocent.
But hey - nothing to hide, nothing to fear, right? Not like the ATF is above planting evidence on people.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:28:12 AM EDT
Hey ATF......... FUCK YOU!!!!!



Cocksuckers.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:28:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:29:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 9:31:00 AM EDT by Spade]

Originally Posted By shotar:
They show up without one first on the off chance that a person with nothing to hide would let them in for a chat and look around to prove to them that there is nothing wrong going on there.





There's no way I'd let any LEO into my house without a warrent even if it was totally empty and sterilized to the point where you could build satellites in it.

Old saying in the intel business: "If you look for something hard enough, you'll find it, whether it's there or not." And it's not like the ATF has, you know, ever planted anything on anybody. Or been basically called unconstitutional JBTs by the legislative branch.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:29:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By shotar:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

They have seized his house pending approval of a search warrant


How the hell does that work?
Fuck the ATF - the whole lot of 'em are nothing more than a group of cheap thugs.



How it works is that they surround the place and don't search allowing the owners to come and go as they please until the search warrant arrives. They show up without one first on the off chance that a person with nothing to hide would let them in for a chat and look around to prove to them that there is nothing wrong going on there.



I understand that.
But if you don't have sufficient evidence for a warrant, how the hell can you do that?
WTF! Prove that there is nothing wrong going on? I think you have roles a little confused here.
It is the job of LE to prove that there is SOMETHING wrong, it is not my job to prove that I am innocent.
But hey - nothing to hide, nothing to fear, right? Not like the ATF is above planting evidence on people.



we are all guilty until proven innocent in the atf's eyes.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:29:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
But if you don't have sufficient evidence for a warrant, how the hell can you do that?
WTF! Prove that there is nothing wrong going on? I think you have roles a little confused here.
It is the job of LE to prove that there is SOMETHING wrong, it is not my job to prove that I am innocent.
But hey - nothing to hide, nothing to fear, right? Not like the ATF is above planting evidence on people.



Wrong country. Your thinking of the United States.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:30:31 AM EDT
Tagged more info.




Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:30:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PhatForrest:
What the hell is wrong with these people?

How about this? GO BUST SOME REAL FUCKING CRIMINALS!



That would suggest the ATF wants to bust criminals.
The ATFs job is to disarm citizens - they make laws and rulings, without Congress getting involved.
Tell me what other Agency has that kind of power?
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:31:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:32:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By PhatForrest:
What the hell is wrong with these people?

How about this? GO BUST SOME REAL FUCKING CRIMINALS!



That would suggest the ATF wants to bust criminals.
The ATFs job is to disarm citizens - they make laws and rulings, without Congress getting involved.
Tell me what other Agency has that kind of power?



The Connecticut State Police.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:34:43 AM EDT
OK, who do we need to start leaning on to get this resolved quickly?

Post the contact data and I'll do my part. If you guys do call or write to anyone, remember to be polite but firm.

Awaiting further info.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:35:51 AM EDT
Tagged for updates.

TC
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:36:06 AM EDT
Similar type BS has happend to a couple people I know. The ATF doesn't make a raid and leave without finding something. Since they didn't find any completed evidence they went with this "constructive intent" or "conspiracy to". Since Shoot-n-Scoot has a milling machine if any of the "drawings" the ATF took were detailed schematics on an auto sear they will just claim he was conspiring to build a machinegun since he had the materials, had the machine, had the firearm, and had the knowledge. I wish him the best of luck because he will need it.

Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:36:31 AM EDT
Wow, a law-enforcement thread where I definitely won't be defending the LEOs.

(unless, of course, unbeknownst to all of us, he actually WAS secretly making class-III weapons, but I think we'll all agree that the chances of that are mighty, mighty slim)
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:37:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shotar:
A couple of questions. How many guns per year can a private person manufacture for their own personal use and not for resale? I thought it was one.

How many was he working on " finishing " or rather manufacturing without a manufacturer's license?

Has he been charged? or not?

If he has, he seems pretty nonchalant about it given that he posted just yesterday about attending a local shoot.



What a POS.
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