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Posted: 3/23/2006 12:38:44 PM EDT
Story here

It is interesting to see where this is coming from, including clerics jailed by the Taliban for being far too moderate.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 1:07:42 PM EDT
Well I thought it was interesting.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 1:09:43 PM EDT
BTDT and have the ARFCOM T-shirt.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 1:13:13 PM EDT
Condi weighed in on this just a few minutes ago on FOX News:

HH
=============================================

Rice Calls Karzai on Christian Convert's Fate

Thursday, March 23, 2006

•Clerics Call for Christian Convert's Death Despite Western Outrage•Pressure Mounts for Way Out on Christian Convert in Afghanistan•U.S. Backs Afghan Man Who Converted to Christianity•Christian Convert in Afghanistan Could be Unfit to Stand Trial


WASHINGTON — Concerned about the fate of a Christian convert in Afghanistan on trial for his life, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice telephoned Afghan President Hamid Karzai on Thursday seeking a "favorable resolution" of the case.

"This is a very deeply concerning development in Afghanistan and we have raised it at the highest levels,” Rice said during a press conference with the Greek minister of foreign affairs. “We look forward to hopefully to a resolution to this in the very near future."

Abdul Rahman, 41, a medical aid worker, converted from Islam to Christianity 16 years ago, a fact that came out publicly during a civil custody case between him and his wife in front of local authorities. The authorities charged him with rejecting Islam, a crime under the country's Shar'ia-based law. The penalty, if guilty, is death.

Rice said religious freedom is the heart of democracy and hoped Afghanistan would uphold those principles in its Constitution in considering Rahman's case.

“We have raised it in the strongest possible terms to make clear that it is our great hope and desire that Afghanistan will reaffirm what is already in its constitution, that the universal declaration on human rights will be respected, and that this will be resolved in a way that is consistent with those principles," Rice said.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack reported that Rice underlined to Karzai the "fact that the United States stands forthrightly for principles of freedom of worship, freedom of expression, and that these are bedrock principles of democracy around the world, these are principles that are enshrined in the Afghan constitution and they're principles that are enshrined in the U.N. Universal Declaration on Human Rights," he said.

"We're looking for a favorable resolution at the earliest possible time," McCormack added.

On Wednesday, President Bush said he was troubled by the possible decapitation.

"I'm troubled when I hear, deeply troubled when I hear, the fact that a person who converted away from Islam may be held to account. That's not the universal application of the values that I talked about. I look forward to working with the government of that country to make sure that people are protected in their capacity to worship," Bush said.

At the White House on Thursday, spokesman Scott McClellan said he was aware of Rice's call, but had not gotten a readout yet of the content. He said the administration will continue to stay in close contact with the Afghan government "and work with them to make sure that people's religious freedoms are protected."

In deference to the country's sovereignty, Rice evidently did not demand specifically that the trial be halted and the defendant released.

"This is clearly an Afghan decision to take. They are a sovereign government. It's a sovereign country. But as I pointed out, we believe that it is important that as the issue is resolved, that those fundamental principles of freedom of religion, freedom of expression are affirmed in the resolution of this case," McCormack said.

Still, her direct appeal to a foreign leader in a proceeding in his country is an unusual move. Rice also spoke to outgoing Afghan Foreign Minister Abdullah Abdullah earlier this week. Abdullah is in Washington, D.C., where he spoke Thursday at American University.

In the question and answer session, Abdullah said that he didn't want this situation to happen, but Afghanistan's exercise of its judicial system is in line with the constitution and its development of a democratic nation.

"We're aware of the fact that there might be different interpretation. It was not in the executive branch, it has been in the judicial. What are the options for the president and for the government, I'm not going to comment on that. I'm sure there will be a solution," he said.

In Afghanistan, Supreme Court judge Ansarullah Mawlavizada told Reuters that "Afghanistan is an Islamic country and its judiciary will act independently and neutrally. ... No other policy will be accepted apart from Islamic orders and what our constitution says."

Amnesty International also weighed in on the trial, demanding Rahman's release.

"No individual should ever be persecuted — let alone executed — for his or her religious beliefs. The freedom to practice one's own faith without fear of retribution is one of humanity's most sacred rights. If Rahman has been imprisoned solely because he converted to Christianity, he must be immediately and unconditionally released," said Amnesty International Executive Director William F. Schulz.

Separately, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist urged Rice to "use every diplomatic means necessary" to ensure Rahman's immediate release.

"I am greatly concerned by Mr. Rahman's prosecution and the challenge his case presents to the future of Afghanistan. It is fair to say that the United States has not spent the last four plus years liberating, defending, rebuilding and assisting Afghanistan's democratic development only to see the Afghani people remain subject to laws reminiscent of the Taliban's reign," Frist said.

Rahman is believed to have lived in Germany for nine years after converting to Christianity while working for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He returned to Kabul in 2002.

It was not immediately clear when Rahman's trial will resume. He is not believed to have a lawyer.


Link Posted: 3/23/2006 1:14:25 PM EDT
President Bush is exactly right in stating that this is no different than the crap the Taliban pulled.

They'd better figure out a way to get out of this mess or they're be hell to pay.

HH
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 1:17:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 1:25:19 PM EDT
Give up on that place already. There is no hope.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 2:08:11 PM EDT
Heheheh. And we had people here who insisted we could "nation build" Asscrackistan and Iraq into democracies where freedom would reign supreme.

You all know who you are.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 2:09:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Heheheh. And we had people here who insisted we could "nation build" Asscrackistan and Iraq into democracies where freedom would reign supreme.

You all know who you are.



so true....


but at that time (here) you were seen as trecherous for not supporting the wars and missions.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 2:21:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 2:51:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Heheheh. And we had people here who insisted we could "nation build" Asscrackistan and Iraq into democracies where freedom would reign supreme.

You all know who you are.



Um.....


We are talking about taking a nation from the 12th century into modernity.

That takes some time.

It took us a while to get things straight as far as human rights too, you know....
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:02:04 PM EDT
I am proud as an American that we spent so much in Lucre and lives to liberate those sheep fuckers, just so they could act like the the taliban all over again.

News for Moonworshippers.......Freedom means religeon too!!!
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:05:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Heheheh. And we had people here who insisted we could "nation build" Asscrackistan and Iraq into democracies where freedom would reign supreme.

You all know who you are.


Um.....

We are talking about taking a nation from the 12th century into modernity.

That takes some time.

It took us a while to get things straight as far as human rights too, you know....


100 years, billions of American taxdollars and thousands of American deaths later it will all be worth it...right?

Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:06:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fireguy3:
I am proud as an American that we spent so much in Lucre and lives to liberate those sheep fuckers, just so they could act like the the taliban all over again.

News for Moonworshippers.......Freedom means religeon too!!!



Afghanistan has ALWAYS been a place that is difficult to change. Life in most remote areas is just as it was 1000 years ago, except now they have AKs.

I think it is premature to write them off.

I certainly am appalled at their decision to execute a man just because he is a Christian, but I don't think it means its time to nuke the area and forget it.

Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:09:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
100 years, billions of American taxdollars and thousands of American deaths later it will all be worth it...right?




If we are going to stop this violent strain of Islam, we are going to have to do something somehwere.

This is a battle of ideas and such battles take time.

I am not saying we maintain 100,000 troops there for the next 100 years.

I am saying that we have demonstrated a real commitment to helping them thusfar. We helped them rid themselves of the Taliban and their opression.

We must now make the arguement that to remain free they cannot repeat the Taliban's behavior or they will just re-open the door to their own opression.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:15:55 PM EDT
Sorry JW. You know how much I respect you. And we agree about 99% of the time.

But when I read your statement about "this violent strain of Islam", I snorted.

There is no "violent strain of Islam".

It's just Islam.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:31:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Sorry JW. You know how much I respect you. And we agree about 99% of the time.



More like 99.5%.......

Wait....did that just drop the average too???

Where's my calculator....



But when I read your statement about "this violent strain of Islam", I snorted.

There is no "violent strain of Islam".

It's just Islam.



That is the central question, isn't it?

Is Islam about the aquisition of power and the subjugation of people, or is it about enlightenment?

It seems to be a question that Islam itself is having a hard time answering...

I work with Muslims every day. None of them really want to kill me. In fact, they are here in America because they enjoy the freedom that the ideals I believe in and that so many have given so much to make possible provides for them. Are these people traitors to their faith, or true believers? I don't know.

Contrasting them with the head-chopping terrorists and those who want to execute Christian converts, I am forced to ask: Will the real Islam please stand up? What is Islam? What does it stand for?

As of yet I don't have a clear answer.

If the Muslims I work with daily have no intention but to live in peace and harmony with me, respecting my freedom as I respect theirs, then so be it. But if they want to impose their historic law and culture on me.....Well......That's why I have all the guns.



Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:34:02 PM EDT
Islam: The Religion of Peace

Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:38:55 PM EDT
Well we gave them freedom alright, the freedom to be the way they'll always be. Only now they have a mock constitution.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:40:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 3:40:45 PM EDT by steve-oh]

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
We are talking about taking a nation from the 12th century into modernity.

That takes some time.

It took us a while to get things straight as far as human rights too, you know....



I'm with John_Wayne777 here. It's gonna take a couple generations, but we did, (and are doing) the right thing.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:41:22 PM EDT
Maybe we should free him and give Afghanistan back to the Taliban.......seems like what they want isnt too far removed from what they had
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:41:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

There is no "violent strain of Islam".

It's just Islam.



That is exactly right!
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:48:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Is Islam about the aquisition of power and the subjugation of people, or is it about enlightenment?




If you don't already know the answer to that question then you haven't been paying attention for the last 30 years.


It seems to be a question that Islam itself is having a hard time answering...


No, they have answered it definitively.


Contrasting them with the head-chopping terrorists and those who want to execute Christian converts, I am forced to ask: Will the real Islam please stand up? What is Islam? What does it stand for?


Don't look to the handful of Muslims that have come to this country for answers about the ways of Islam. Look to the billion Islamics living all over the world. What are their actions? What are their actions in Sudan, Somalia, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordan, "Palestine", Afghanistan, Pakistan, Thailand, Lebannon, Russia and the Phillipines? That's where you'll find out what Islam is about.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:50:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Sorry JW. You know how much I respect you. And we agree about 99% of the time.

But when I read your statement about "this violent strain of Islam", I snorted.

There is no "violent strain of Islam".

It's just Islam.



We strive for Democratization and all we get is Islamization- James Pinkerton in reference to Iraq and Afghanistan
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:55:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Don't look to the handful of Muslims that have come to this country for answers about the ways of Islam. Look to the billion Islamics living all over the world. What are their actions? What are their actions in Sudan, Somalia, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordan, "Palestine", Afghanistan, Pakistan, Thailand, Lebannon, Russia and the Phillipines? That's where you'll find out what Islam is about.



Don't get me wrong: I am not blind here. I see all that stuff. It seems like the lunatics have the floor.

What I am waiting for is for the rest, IF there are any, to stand up and take the floor.

Do I think it will happen? Not really. Islam isn't just about religion in those regions. It isn't just about faith. It is a base of power for those who perpetrate these monstrosities. In examples like this one, we see how the Islamic faith is used as a means to power by those who currently hold it. They use religion like Stalin used communism, strictly to prop up their own personal power.

So long as that is the case, I don't think the "peaceful" muslims will be the ones defining the faith.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:02:24 PM EDT
Time to call Team America into Burka Burka Stan!
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:04:46 PM EDT
What else is new?

There are many shit heads right here on arfcom that would love nothing more than to feed all Christians to the Lions.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:06:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
If we are going to stop this violent strain of Islam, we are going to have to do something somehwere.

This is a battle of ideas and such battles take time.

I am not saying we maintain 100,000 troops there for the next 100 years.

I am saying that we have demonstrated a real commitment to helping them thusfar. We helped them rid themselves of the Taliban and their opression.

We must now make the arguement that to remain free they cannot repeat the Taliban's behavior or they will just re-open the door to their own opression.


That's the plan. I'm not convinced it's what they want, however. As the old saying goes: You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

It seems as though those people in that neck of the woods wouldn't know what to do with freedom if it was given to them on silver platter. Which is exactly what was done for them.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:07:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
It's just Islam.


Succinctly put.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:34:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 7:34:44 PM EDT by wganz]
"Ever since man has crawled out of the ocean, he has asked the question, 'How long, will this bullshit go on?'"
Richard Pryor

wganz



Kabul Judge Rejects Calls to End Trial of Christian Convert
Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:34:00 PM

And what are all the RoP'er apologists are going to say when they martyr him?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:39:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
That's the plan. I'm not convinced it's what they want, however. As the old saying goes: You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

It seems as though those people in that neck of the woods wouldn't know what to do with freedom if it was given to them on silver platter. Which is exactly what was done for them.



That may very well be true, and I am inclined to believe that is the ultimate outcome.

But still the effort is a noble one, and if the day comes where we must wipe out vast numbers, at least it cannot be said that we didn't try everything else before that.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 5:13:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 5:16:11 PM EDT by Jacketch]

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Don't look to the handful of Muslims that have come to this country for answers about the ways of Islam. Look to the billion Islamics living all over the world. What are their actions? What are their actions in Sudan, Somalia, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordan, "Palestine", Afghanistan, Pakistan, Thailand, Lebannon, Russia and the Phillipines? That's where you'll find out what Islam is about.



Don't get me wrong: I am not blind here. I see all that stuff. It seems like the lunatics have the floor.

What I am waiting for is for the rest, IF there are any, to stand up and take the floor.

Do I think it will happen? Not really. Islam isn't just about religion in those regions. It isn't just about faith. It is a base of power for those who perpetrate these monstrosities. In examples like this one, we see how the Islamic faith is used as a means to power by those who currently hold it. They use religion like Stalin used communism, strictly to prop up their own personal power.

So long as that is the case, I don't think the "peaceful" muslims will be the ones defining the faith.

Peaceful muslims will never define the faith as long as the very un-peaceful Koran and Hadiths exist.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:21:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jacketch:
Peaceful muslims will never define the faith as long as the very un-peaceful Koran and Hadiths exist.


You can't have Islam without the Koran.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:23:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 9:24:00 AM EDT by Wobblin-Goblin]

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By Jacketch:
Peaceful muslims will never define the faith as long as the very un-peaceful Koran and Hadiths exist.


You can't have Islam without the Koran violence.


Fixed it for you.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:46:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Don't look to the handful of Muslims that have come to this country for answers about the ways of Islam. Look to the billion Islamics living all over the world. What are their actions? What are their actions in Sudan, Somalia, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordan, "Palestine", Afghanistan, Pakistan, Thailand, Lebannon, Russia and the Phillipines? That's where you'll find out what Islam is about.



Don't get me wrong: I am not blind here. I see all that stuff. It seems like the lunatics have the floor.

What I am waiting for is for the rest, IF there are any, to stand up and take the floor.




I am also waiting for that.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:53:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Don't look to the handful of Muslims that have come to this country for answers about the ways of Islam. Look to the billion Islamics living all over the world. What are their actions? What are their actions in Sudan, Somalia, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordan, "Palestine", Afghanistan, Pakistan, Thailand, Lebannon, Russia and the Phillipines? That's where you'll find out what Islam is about.



Don't get me wrong: I am not blind here. I see all that stuff. It seems like the lunatics have the floor.

What I am waiting for is for the rest, IF there are any, to stand up and take the floor.




I am also waiting for that.



Better pull up a chair.

Gonna be here a while.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:10:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By Jacketch:
Peaceful muslims will never define the faith as long as the very un-peaceful Koran and Hadiths exist.


You can't have Islam without the Koran violence.


Fixed it for you.


I don't agree with your "fix".
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:12:14 AM EDT
Bukhari:V4B52N260 “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.’”


So much for "religion of peace"
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:33:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Madis:
Bukhari:V4B52N260 “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.’”


So much for "religion of peace"


There are just as many violent Bible verses that the bangers can point to.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:38:42 AM EDT
I cannot describe how much this infuriates me.

If someone could guarentee me a slot in the US "re-invasion" if Afghanistan to get rid of these idots, my car would be floored all the way to the recruiting station.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:42:21 AM EDT
Think Justice Ginsburg will be citing to Afghan Supreme Court anytime soon?
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:44:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
There are just as many violent Bible verses that the bangers can point to.



Not in the New Testament there aren't.

Besides, when was the last time Christians demanded the stoning of an adulterer?
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:46:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
[Not in the New Testament there aren't.

Besides, when was the last time Christians demanded the stoning of an adulterer?



Its still part of the religions accepted literature. If soem Christians thought they could get away with stoning people, I have no doubt that they would do it or advocate it.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:50:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Katana16j:
Story here

It is interesting to see where this is coming from, including clerics jailed by the Taliban for being far too moderate.



resd it here 1 week old thread
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:52:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Its still part of the religions accepted literature. If soem Christians thought they could get away with stoning people, I have no doubt that they would do it or advocate it.



It IS a part of the Old Testament. But Jesus came along and specifically did away with those penalties from the Old Testament.

Thus anyone making the arguement that stoning adulterers is the Christian thing to do would be making an arguement that the theological underpinning of Christianity does not permit.

When Jesus says "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone" He changed the way these things are handled. He said that the interpretation of the pharisees made the OT law "without effect" because they used it like a weapon and as a tool for personal power rather than as a means to bettering themselves and to represent justice.

Thus the concept of stoning adulterers has no basis in practice within Christian theology.

Would some do it? Probably a few, and only a very few at that.

Does that mirror what we are seeing in the Islamic world?

Absolutely not.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:52:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By Jacketch:
Peaceful muslims will never define the faith as long as the very un-peaceful Koran and Hadiths exist.


You can't have Islam without the Koran violence.


Fixed it for you.


I don't agree with your "fix".


Oh well.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:53:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By Madis:
Bukhari:V4B52N260 “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.’”

So much for "religion of peace"


There are just as many violent Bible verses that the bangers can point to.


Heheheh. Suuuuuuuure there are.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:58:00 AM EDT
Update:

Afghan Christian 'likely to be released soon': official
Mar 24 2:24 PM US/Eastern
Email this story

An Afghan Christian facing possible execution for converting from Islam was likely to be released from jail "soon," a senior government official said following huge Western pressure over the case.

"He is likely to be released soon," the official said, adding there would be a top-level meeting on the matter Saturday.

Abdul Rahman was arrested two weeks ago under Islamic Sharia law and faced a possible death sentence in a case that has attracted widespread condemnation, especially from the United States.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice telephoned Afghan President Hamid Karzai on Thursday to step up pressure to free 41-year-old Rahman, who converted in Germany 16 years ago and was turned in by his parents on his return to Afghanistan.

Rice said she phoned Karzai to hammer home "in the strongest possible terms" Washington's concern over the proceedings against Rahman.

"There is no more fundamental issue for the United States than freedom of religion and religious conscience," she said.

Rice also raised the issue in a meeting Wednesday with visiting Afghan Foreign Minister Abdullah Abdullah.

President George W. Bush said he was "deeply troubled" by the case.

In Ottawa, Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper said he telephoned Karzai on Wednesday to express concern about a possible execution and "he conveyed to me that we don't have to worry about any such eventual outcome."

Karzai "assured me that what's alarmed most of us will be worked out quickly ... in a way that fully respects religious rights, religious freedoms and human rights," Harper added.

Afghanistan's Supreme Court said Thursday it was trying to find a "good solution" to the case, the first of its kind here, including persuading Rahman to revert to Islam.

Sharia law, on which the Afghan constitution is partly based, rules that conversion away from Islam must be punished by death if the accused person fails to revert.

Link Posted: 3/24/2006 11:00:57 AM EDT
He'll be dead before he gets home.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 11:03:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
[Heheheh. Suuuuuuuure there are.


Ah. So you are claiming that Christianity is a religion of peace. The Inquisition must have been a bad dream.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 11:09:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
[Heheheh. Suuuuuuuure there are.


Ah. So you are claiming that Christianity is a religion of peace. The Inquisition must have been a bad dream.


Lame, my friend. Very, very lame. Heheheh. Shit, that was lame. The Inquisition? Your best answer is something that happened ONE THOUSAND YEARS AGO?

Heheheh. Lame-o.
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