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Posted: 3/22/2006 2:37:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 2:40:03 PM EDT by JFP]
Florida teachers pay raises and bonuses may be affected by their students test scores if a new bill is passed. I wonder if this is really a good idea in that will it be easier for the teacher to "dumb down" the students test to atificially create a higher average test score or will the teachers actually try to figure out ways to help their students learn the material better?
www.sptimes.com/2006/02/21/State/Teachers_call_FCAT_pa.shtml
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:41:54 PM EDT

There is evidence that when this happens, many teacher WILL cheat. As in, after they collect the standardized tests, they will erase incorrect answers and fill out correct ones themselves - before the scoring sheets are handed into administrators.

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:44:55 PM EDT
The FCAT is not evaluated by teachers, it is an independent company that does the scoring.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:45:55 PM EDT
good!!!!
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:47:13 PM EDT
Read "Freakonomics". Teachers will cheat. I know it's a pretty far out thought but it's true.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:48:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JFP:
Florida teachers pay raises and bonuses may be affected by their students test scores if a new bill is passed. I wonder if this is really a good idea in that will it be easier for the teacher to "dumb down" the students test to atificially create a higher average test score or will the teachers actually try to figure out ways to help their students learn the material better?
www.sptimes.com/2006/02/21/State/Teachers_call_FCAT_pa.shtml



They're likely talking about the FCAT scores. Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test is a state standard test. The reason you suggest (dumbing down the test) happened all too often in many places, which is why the standard test is a good idea. Teachers have been criticized for "teaching the test," that is, emphasizing material covered on the test. Duh!! The test is derived from the syllabus, therefore teaching for the test is teaching the syllabus, as you say "learning the material." Many activist teachers - I leave you to guess their leanings - don't like the test because they feel it restricts them. Such teachers feel they know best what to teach, including how to brainwash, which is why I strongly favor standard tests. I suppose there are some truly superior teachers who could do a better job, and they feel restricted. Sorry, maybe you are good, but in the current political environment (since the 1960s) that doesn't work. These teachers should be smart enough to know all the ramifications, and what happens when rule apply to everyone as well as the resulting chaos when everybody does his/her "own thing."
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:49:09 PM EDT
Too bad that the students who dont want to learn or dont care are gonna control teachers pay

If this passes we will have even less teachers to go around
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:49:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 2:50:14 PM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By w4klr:
The FCAT is not evaluated by teachers, it is an independent company that does the scoring.



Does the FCAT send testers to the school to administer, supervise and collect the tests? If the tests at ANY point pass through the hands of the teachers, they can (and will) cheat, given this type of incentive system.


Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:54:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By w4klr:
The FCAT is not evaluated by teachers, it is an independent company that does the scoring.



Does the FCAT send testers to the school to administer, supervise and collect the tests? If the tests at ANY point pass through the hands of the teachers, they can (and will) cheat, given this type of incentive system.





Excellent point. The company that does the test work should take this potentially credibility destroying possibility into account. First, security of collection, as in representatives. Second, different versions of the tests, even as simple as questions in a different order, identified by bar codes, combined with restricted delivery.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:56:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By w4klr:
The FCAT is not evaluated by teachers, it is an independent company that does the scoring.



Does the FCAT send testers to the school to administer, supervise and collect the tests? If the tests at ANY point pass through the hands of the teachers, they can (and will) cheat, given this type of incentive system.





No, the tests are administered by the teachers and there are proctors who are usually parental chaperones. The FCAT is not your standard multiple choice answer sheet either btw, and there are about 7 different versions of the test for each session floating around a class at any given point. When the test is finished before it is to be sent for evaluation, they are all sealed on the edge of the booklet.

My class in hs was lucky, mine was the last year before the FCAT was implemented, however, they have been testing and dry running it since I was in 4th grade!

I consider myself a fairly intelligent person, so when I took the demo tests in middle school, they went something like this:

Johnny has a blue car, what color is Johnny's blue car?
What's Johnny's name?

Then it would go something like:

What did Johnny's parents mean when they named him Johnny, were they in a good or bad mood?

Honest to god, I don't know how ANYBODY can fail that test, but then again, in my experience, schools began to start teaching how to take the FCAT a long long long time before it was mandatory for HS graduation, so it's nothing new.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:58:51 PM EDT
I know that where my fiance teaches (in Mass) the kids all take standardized tests. The tests were put into effect after the no child left behind act. All the kids take the same test, including the mongoloids and waterheads. This is an obvious flaw in the system because some of these kids will just never learn and they in-turn lower the scores of the entire school.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:01:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
There is evidence that when this happens, many teacher WILL cheat. As in, after they collect the standardized tests, they will erase incorrect answers and fill out correct ones themselves - before the scoring sheets are handed into administrators.




I think that saying many teachers will cheat is a little wreckless. I doubt that 1% would change answers etc.

Teaching to the test on the other hand will be done by about 99% of teachers. As a certified teacher, I have seen this time and again. districts formulate plans to teach to the test in every grade level. It really brings me down to emphasize particular things that are going to be on the test, but of little use in real life.

For example, in michigan the 4th graders take the MEAP test. They get points if they restate the question in the answer for the written portion. I had to make them do that all the time, when it was not always the best way to word an answer.

Be careful what you ask for, as you just might get it.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:04:03 PM EDT
ya'll dont worry bout it. the Teachers in the inner city won't be getting any test score bonus but they do qualify for extra combat duty pay.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:05:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NonConformist:
Too bad that the students who dont want to learn or dont care are gonna control teachers pay

If this passes we will have even less teachers to go around




Out of 120 students I teach daily MAYBE 30 or them give a damn about the subject and try to learn. The other 90 are just there because the "po-po" will hassle them if they don't or because momma said go.

And you want my pay attached to how these assholes do on a test?! Shit Just to give you an idea we are in the second semester home stretch of school and over half the deadbeats can't even bring pencil and paper reliably to class.

Your best teachers are going to try really hard like they've been doing every day but if their pay dropps for no fault of themselves they will vote with their feet. Then you'll be stuck with the bottom feeders of the teaching world.

It's always surprised me how in this country people hate teachers. Yet in every other country of the world the teacher is a highly respected professional. And very well paid.

I'm getting out of teaching next year. Not because I don't like teaching because I do. But instead because I can't support a family of 4 on the crappy salary. Plus I get rather tired of the ole "those who can do those that can't teach" philosophy that seems to be common in this country. I left a job that was paying on average 75-85k a year to teach. For a lousy 45k a year damn I was an idiot with a dream.

So bash the people that teach the children. Be cool. Be a sheeple. But if you truely don't like the education system get off your duff and actually try teaching. It's not nearly as easy as you think it is. I've worked harder in my life teaching than I did doing. It's time I relaxed I think.

James.

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:19:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII:

Originally Posted By NonConformist:
Too bad that the students who dont want to learn or dont care are gonna control teachers pay

If this passes we will have even less teachers to go around




Out of 120 students I teach daily MAYBE 30 or them give a damn about the subject and try to learn. The other 90 are just there because the "po-po" will hassle them if they don't or because momma said go.

And you want my pay attached to how these assholes do on a test?! Shit Just to give you an idea we are in the second semester home stretch of school and over half the deadbeats can't even bring pencil and paper reliably to class.

Your best teachers are going to try really hard like they've been doing every day but if their pay dropps for no fault of themselves they will vote with their feet. Then you'll be stuck with the bottom feeders of the teaching world.

It's always surprised me how in this country people hate teachers. Yet in every other country of the world the teacher is a highly respected professional. And very well paid.

I'm getting out of teaching next year. Not because I don't like teaching because I do. But instead because I can't support a family of 4 on the crappy salary. Plus I get rather tired of the ole "those who can do those that can't teach" philosophy that seems to be common in this country. I left a job that was paying on average 75-85k a year to teach. For a lousy 45k a year damn I was an idiot with a dream.

So bash the people that teach the children. Be cool. Be a sheeple. But if you truely don't like the education system get off your duff and actually try teaching. It's not nearly as easy as you think it is. I've worked harder in my life teaching than I did doing. It's time I relaxed I think.

James.




Sorry to hear it, bro. This is my 7th year in the classroom, and I'm fighting the burn-out, myself. This is NOT a friendly website to your profession, so prepare your thick skin.

Florida is run by a Bush. The Bushes (and damn Laura for not knowing better) get a collective hard-on when you say "standardized test" because it allows them to punctuate the idea that there doesn't exist enough ACCOUNTABILITy in education. They're right, there probably isn't. There are indeed lazy teachers. Their thick skulls don't realize that standardized tests aren't how you weed out the bad teachers, though. I had to watch W implement his ideal little system while he was governor here and now he's pushed his illogical ideas on the national level.

Here are some problems that will rise up:

1. Whoever does the master schedule wields ultimate power here. Teachers who are buddies with the counselor or administrator that does the scheduling will CERTAINLY get the best students. New teachers or those who just aren't interested in puckering up to the established totem pole in the school will get screwed.
2. Will every teacher get an opportunity for his/her kids to take this test? If not, then this is an inherently unfair way to link salary to student performance. My guess is that the art teacher can kiss any chance at a pay raise good bye, though he/she may be a kick-ass art teacher.
3. Kids hate standardized tests. I'm not saying throw them out the door, because they CAN provide some useful information, but the results shouldn't be the end all.
4. What is the criteria for getting the pay raise? Is it simply a % passing rate? If so, the teacher that raises her kids from 35% to 50% one year has shown tremendous improvement, but will that be recognized as good enough? After all, 50% is unimpressive by most standards. What about the teacher who is in a great suburban school who is a so-so teacher, but whose kids are so fundamentally strong that they manage a 98%? What if that teacher slips to 97% the next year?

These are just SOME problems that I immediately see springing up. There are bound to be others that arise. Time will tell.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:34:52 PM EDT

If I were teaching the unteachable, and my employer threatened to make my pay scale with the unteachable's test scores, I'd look for another job.

Jim
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:36:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By leakycow:

Sorry to hear it, bro. This is my 7th year in the classroom, and I'm fighting the burn-out, myself. This is NOT a friendly website to your profession, so prepare your thick skin.





After 6 years teaching in a South Fulton county classroom none of these E-thugs on here can even scratch my skin.

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:39:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KS_Physicist:
If I were teaching the unteachable, and my employer threatened to make my pay scale with the unteachable's test scores, I'd look for another job.

Jim



It took me 5 years to get my teaching degree. Nothing like the changes I have seen latly to make me second guess my decision.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:48:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII:

Originally Posted By NonConformist:
Too bad that the students who dont want to learn or dont care are gonna control teachers pay

If this passes we will have even less teachers to go around




Out of 120 students I teach daily MAYBE 30 or them give a damn about the subject and try to learn. The other 90 are just there because the "po-po" will hassle them if they don't or because momma said go.

And you want my pay attached to how these assholes do on a test?! Shit Just to give you an idea we are in the second semester home stretch of school and over half the deadbeats can't even bring pencil and paper reliably to class.

Your best teachers are going to try really hard like they've been doing every day but if their pay dropps for no fault of themselves they will vote with their feet. Then you'll be stuck with the bottom feeders of the teaching world.

It's always surprised me how in this country people hate teachers. Yet in every other country of the world the teacher is a highly respected professional. And very well paid.

I'm getting out of teaching next year. Not because I don't like teaching because I do. But instead because I can't support a family of 4 on the crappy salary. Plus I get rather tired of the ole "those who can do those that can't teach" philosophy that seems to be common in this country. I left a job that was paying on average 75-85k a year to teach. For a lousy 45k a year damn I was an idiot with a dream.

So bash the people that teach the children. Be cool. Be a sheeple. But if you truely don't like the education system get off your duff and actually try teaching. It's not nearly as easy as you think it is. I've worked harder in my life teaching than I did doing. It's time I relaxed I think.

James.




I'll only bash the specific people that were teaching my children. Booger-eating morons with a God complex, they were. I fired them. Mrs. Sand Pirate and I now homeschool, with tremendous results.

I sure you're a great teacher, God bless you. Get out with your sanity. It IS time you relaxed. Good luck.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:50:00 PM EDT
It's all about the same ole' blame game. Lack of intelligence has joined the ranks of race, religion, and gender in the bias game. Teachers are paid to teach, not be baby-sitters and parental units. Parents need to be accountable..nobody else.

For teacher's pay to be reflected by student's test scores is unfair and outrageous. It's basically a quota-system. A teacher is only as effective as the student that's ready and willing to learn. If a teacher is stuck with a classful of punks with no desire to learn, of course he/she would be tempted to mess with test scores to put food on the table. A teacher shouldnt be put into that situation...period. That's like saying a police officer's pay would be based on the number of tickets and lock-ups he/she generates.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:53:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By killingmachine123:

Originally Posted By KS_Physicist:
If I were teaching the unteachable, and my employer threatened to make my pay scale with the unteachable's test scores, I'd look for another job.

Jim



It took me 5 years to get my teaching degree. Nothing like the changes I have seen latly to make me second guess my decision.



I've thought about teaching. I'm in a very high-demand field, most places desperately need physics teachers. I have some teaching experience at college level and I substitute taught some while going to grad school. Many states would gladly hire me on to teach and have programs set up to get the teaching professional coursework done in a couple of years on the side.

It's less money than I can make elsewhere, but I found that I love teaching science and I seem to be very effective in the classroom and in tutoring situations. My wife is a writer, and having time to travel each summer would be nice.

But, then I read about this kind of crap, and I hear stories from my many friends who are in secondary education. Less than half of the people I know who went into teaching are still in it, and probably less than half of those who are still teaching want to stay in the field. Only one or two (out of dozens) has encouraged me to go into teaching--the rest have just asked "WHY?".

Maybe in ten or twenty years the situation will be different. If I'm in a position to take a major pay cut at that point, perhaps I'll thnk about it again.

Jim
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 4:29:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Does the FCAT send testers to the school to administer, supervise and collect the tests? If the tests at ANY point pass through the hands of the teachers, they can (and will) cheat, given this type of incentive system.



In the two Broward county high schools with which I'm familiar, the FCAT is administered by OTHER teachers. You can't help your own students' scores, but you can affect the scores of students from other classes (one way or another). Got a grudge against another faculty member? Use your imagination. Think of the best teacher you ever had. Now think about the worst teacher you ever had influencing that person's pay.

While it's true that schools now spend much time and energy teaching the test, they seem to do little in the way of preparing for the actual testing process. Too many students in one room, no answer sheets in another, ESOL students working without the dictionaires that they were supposed to have, various distractions, et cetera. The devil is in the details.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 4:39:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 4:42:31 PM EDT by guns762]

Originally Posted By leakycow:
. My guess is that the art teacher can kiss any chance at a pay raise good bye, though he/she may be a kick-ass art teacher.These are just SOME problems that I immediately see springing up. There are bound to be others that arise. Time will tell.



<-------Art teacher

Yup, I've already seen the writing on the wall for "perfomance pay" Anyone not teaching Math, English and Science need not apply.

Will I quit? Probably not, I love what I do, and I know I don't have to work as hard(paperwork wise) as the Big 3 teachers; it will sour my attitude though. This is the end of my 10th year. I just broke into the 40K range this year, ........with my Masters degree.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:15:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII:

Originally Posted By NonConformist:
Too bad that the students who dont want to learn or dont care are gonna control teachers pay

If this passes we will have even less teachers to go around




Out of 120 students I teach daily MAYBE 30 or them give a damn about the subject and try to learn. The other 90 are just there because the "po-po" will hassle them if they don't or because momma said go.

And you want my pay attached to how these assholes do on a test?! Shit Just to give you an idea we are in the second semester home stretch of school and over half the deadbeats can't even bring pencil and paper reliably to class.

Your best teachers are going to try really hard like they've been doing every day but if their pay dropps for no fault of themselves they will vote with their feet. Then you'll be stuck with the bottom feeders of the teaching world.

It's always surprised me how in this country people hate teachers. Yet in every other country of the world the teacher is a highly respected professional. And very well paid.

I'm getting out of teaching next year. Not because I don't like teaching because I do. But instead because I can't support a family of 4 on the crappy salary. Plus I get rather tired of the ole "those who can do those that can't teach" philosophy that seems to be common in this country. I left a job that was paying on average 75-85k a year to teach. For a lousy 45k a year damn I was an idiot with a dream.

So bash the people that teach the children. Be cool. Be a sheeple. But if you truely don't like the education system get off your duff and actually try teaching. It's not nearly as easy as you think it is. I've worked harder in my life teaching than I did doing. It's time I relaxed I think.

James.





I dont know if that is directed at me or just a general observation, Im on your side. I think it is sad teachers dont get better pay and the good ones will leave because of the lazy students ESPECIALLY if the above passes. Just thinkin' of all the GOOD teachers in bad schools getting shafted with this.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:34:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 5:35:19 PM EDT by leakycow]

Originally Posted By guns762:

Originally Posted By leakycow:
. My guess is that the art teacher can kiss any chance at a pay raise good bye, though he/she may be a kick-ass art teacher.These are just SOME problems that I immediately see springing up. There are bound to be others that arise. Time will tell.



<-------Art teacher

Yup, I've already seen the writing on the wall for "perfomance pay" Anyone not teaching Math, English and Science need not apply.

Will I quit? Probably not, I love what I do, and I know I don't have to work as hard(paperwork wise) as the Big 3 teachers; it will sour my attitude though. This is the end of my 10th year. I just broke into the 40K range this year, ........with my Masters degree.



You didn't mention whether you were a kick-ass art teacher or not.

Wait, let us be the judge of that...post a pic of one of your students doing a Colt Python cubist-style or something.

Keep on doing good work.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:40:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 5:41:32 PM EDT by Jarhead_22]
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:44:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 5:56:38 PM EDT by guns762]

Originally Posted By leakycow:

Originally Posted By guns762:

Originally Posted By leakycow:
. My guess is that the art teacher can kiss any chance at a pay raise good bye, though he/she may be a kick-ass art teacher.These are just SOME problems that I immediately see springing up. There are bound to be others that arise. Time will tell.



<-------Art teacher

Yup, I've already seen the writing on the wall for "perfomance pay" Anyone not teaching Math, English and Science need not apply.

Will I quit? Probably not, I love what I do, and I know I don't have to work as hard(paperwork wise) as the Big 3 teachers; it will sour my attitude though. This is the end of my 10th year. I just broke into the 40K range this year, ........with my Masters degree.



You didn't mention whether you were a kick-ass art teacher or not.

Wait, let us be the judge of that...post a pic of one of your students doing a Colt Python cubist-style or something.
Keep on doing good work.


How about this:
Two students working on a Turkey(taxidermy)


The mountain lion that my students helped me with


The P.H.S. Veterans' Memorial, that I spent five years working with students, faculty, and Vets to design, raise 108K, and build


What's my pay up to yet.....oh, that's right, 40k, I'm not a "Nationally Certified Teacher" worth another 5K
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:45:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 5:46:46 PM EDT by Beleg]
I'm a teacher, and I think this is indicative of a greater problem proliferating throughout our society. Since when is it the teacher's duty to see that all students get educated? My students have the right to fail, if they choose. I tell my students that it is THEIR responsibility to get educated. I provide the material, assistance and assessment. They get the education. I don't GIVE them anything; THEY EARN THEIR GRADE! Students are constantly told that their education is their teachers' resposibility. Consequently, they blame the teacher when they fail.

Paying teachers more for their students' hard work? NOT RIGHT!

Punishing teachers for their students' laziness or ineptitude? NOT RIGHT!!

Now, if there is a lazy teacher who is not teaching, or just moving the kids through the system without assessment, then that bastard deserves to be fired. That is the principal's job. But a test cannot possibly be a test of teaching skill; it can only test the students, who may or may not be doing their part.

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:46:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nightstalker:
Read "Freakonomics". Teachers will cheat. I know it's a pretty far out thought but it's true.



+1 Even when they don't cheat, they will focus on having the kids learn the test but not necessarily learn the material. The type of idiotic shit that politicians push to look good, despite the fact it fucks up the schooling.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:54:51 PM EDT
Just wanted to add that most of the absolute best teachers that were at the school I teach at left education, or my district about 5yrs ago. The absolute best teacher in our school, the AG/welding teacher(yup, I'm not kidding) gave up teaching all together. He now builds houses.

The guy was amazing. He worked with the calculus teacher building interdisicplineary projects. He is a great guy, and I'm sorry that my kids won't have the chance to have him as a teacher. He quit because he asked(rightly so) for the distirct to give him two more "seasons" of coaching pay for the FFA group that he sponsored. He got around 1800 for his "season" of work, which lasted all freaking year, including the summer. Most coaches work one season for less than 2months. He made about 30k a year as a teacher at the time.

The best ones leave. The shitty ones like the one that replaced him hang around forever.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:54:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By guns762:
impressive stuff deleted for brevity, only



that's nice!

your kids are allowed to handle, much less manipulate, dead animals? that's pretty cool
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:58:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 5:58:42 PM EDT by leakycow]

Originally Posted By Beleg:
I'm a teacher, and I think this is indicative of a greater problem proliferating throughout our society. Since when is it the teacher's duty to see that all students get educated? My students have the right to fail, if they choose. I tell my students that it is THEIR responsibility to get educated. I provide the material, assistance and assessment. They get the education. I don't GIVE them anything; THEY EARN THEIR GRADE! Students are constantly told that their education is their teachers' resposibility. Consequently, they blame the teacher when they fail.

Paying teachers more for their students' hard work? NOT RIGHT!

Punishing teachers for their students' laziness or ineptitude? NOT RIGHT!!

Now, if there is a lazy teacher who is not teaching, or just moving the kids through the system without assessment, then that bastard deserves to be fired. That is the principal's job. But a test cannot possibly be a test of teaching skill; it can only test the students, who may or may not be doing their part.




and that's the biggest problem with the big "accountability" push for teachers.

"but supervisors/managers out in the work force are accountable for how their people perform"

yeah, but when's the last time you heard of a teacher firing a shitty student?
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:58:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By leakycow:

Originally Posted By guns762:
impressive stuff deleted for brevity, only



that's nice!

your kids are allowed to handle, much less manipulate, dead animals? that's pretty cool



Ya, but I'll bet if "Bird Flu" hits North America, I will be all done with birds......Whatcha bet?
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:30:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By leakycow:

Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII:

Originally Posted By NonConformist:
Too bad that the students who dont want to learn or dont care are gonna control teachers pay

If this passes we will have even less teachers to go around




Out of 120 students I teach daily MAYBE 30 or them give a damn about the subject and try to learn. The other 90 are just there because the "po-po" will hassle them if they don't or because momma said go.

And you want my pay attached to how these assholes do on a test?! Shit Just to give you an idea we are in the second semester home stretch of school and over half the deadbeats can't even bring pencil and paper reliably to class.

Your best teachers are going to try really hard like they've been doing every day but if their pay dropps for no fault of themselves they will vote with their feet. Then you'll be stuck with the bottom feeders of the teaching world.

It's always surprised me how in this country people hate teachers. Yet in every other country of the world the teacher is a highly respected professional. And very well paid.

I'm getting out of teaching next year. Not because I don't like teaching because I do. But instead because I can't support a family of 4 on the crappy salary. Plus I get rather tired of the ole "those who can do those that can't teach" philosophy that seems to be common in this country. I left a job that was paying on average 75-85k a year to teach. For a lousy 45k a year damn I was an idiot with a dream.

So bash the people that teach the children. Be cool. Be a sheeple. But if you truely don't like the education system get off your duff and actually try teaching. It's not nearly as easy as you think it is. I've worked harder in my life teaching than I did doing. It's time I relaxed I think.

James.




Sorry to hear it, bro. This is my 7th year in the classroom, and I'm fighting the burn-out, myself. This is NOT a friendly website to your profession, so prepare your thick skin.

Florida is run by a Bush. The Bushes (and damn Laura for not knowing better) get a collective hard-on when you say "standardized test" because it allows them to punctuate the idea that there doesn't exist enough ACCOUNTABILITy in education. They're right, there probably isn't. There are indeed lazy teachers. Their thick skulls don't realize that standardized tests aren't how you weed out the bad teachers, though. I had to watch W implement his ideal little system while he was governor here and now he's pushed his illogical ideas on the national level.

Here are some problems that will rise up:

1. Whoever does the master schedule wields ultimate power here. Teachers who are buddies with the counselor or administrator that does the scheduling will CERTAINLY get the best students. New teachers or those who just aren't interested in puckering up to the established totem pole in the school will get screwed.
2. Will every teacher get an opportunity for his/her kids to take this test? If not, then this is an inherently unfair way to link salary to student performance. My guess is that the art teacher can kiss any chance at a pay raise good bye, though he/she may be a kick-ass art teacher.
3. Kids hate standardized tests. I'm not saying throw them out the door, because they CAN provide some useful information, but the results shouldn't be the end all.
4. What is the criteria for getting the pay raise? Is it simply a % passing rate? If so, the teacher that raises her kids from 35% to 50% one year has shown tremendous improvement, but will that be recognized as good enough? After all, 50% is unimpressive by most standards. What about the teacher who is in a great suburban school who is a so-so teacher, but whose kids are so fundamentally strong that they manage a 98%? What if that teacher slips to 97% the next year?

These are just SOME problems that I immediately see springing up. There are bound to be others that arise. Time will tell.


that is down right scary
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:37:37 PM EDT
guns, that mountain lion is kick ass
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:43:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JFP:
guns, that mountain lion is kick ass



Hey, thank you, I was going for "kick Ass teacher award".

It was fun to do. There is a thread in the hunting forum about it if you are interested. My students had fun working on it with me. We all learned quite a bit. It was the first time I worked on a mountain lion.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:45:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JFP:

Originally Posted By leakycow:
Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII:
4. What is the criteria for getting the pay raise? Is it simply a % passing rate? If so, the teacher that raises her kids from 35% to 50% one year has shown tremendous improvement, but will that be recognized as good enough? After all, 50% is unimpressive by most standards. What about the teacher who is in a great suburban school who is a so-so teacher, but whose kids are so fundamentally strong that they manage a 98%? What if that teacher slips to 97% the next year?

These are just SOME problems that I immediately see springing up. There are bound to be others that arise. Time will tell.


that is down right scary



Most people don't think about this part when they talk about perfomance pay for teachers
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:21:04 PM EDT
I used to agree with this... Then my bestfriends wife became a teacher, most importantly, she teaches to kids who have trouble on the FCATs... What a bunch of fuck ups.

Their pay is pretty lousy anyway... I get a better idea, how about FL teach the children to learn useful stuff instead of teaching them to solely pass the FCAT, because that is what is going on now.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:37:48 PM EDT
Bad, bad idea. Public school teachers are too stupid and incompetent not to either a) cheat, b) force students to cheat, or c) emotionally and physically abuse students to try to get them to do well on it.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:41:35 PM EDT
You want good teachers? Dramatically raise the standards for the job at the same time you dramatically raise pay. Get rid of the current deadweight. Get rid of tenure in K-12. Get administrators that aren't afraid to kick problem students out or fail them. Focus on fundamentals and none of this "computer computer computer" crap.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:23:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 8:25:06 AM EDT by JFP]
There appears to be quite a bit of conjecture/experience here that only bad ju-ju can come from the afore-mentioned practice of relating a teachers pay to their students test scores. Is there any hard evidence to support the idea that only negative results can come from this? Why would the state attempt to enact this process if it was proven to not be adequate in raising the overall standings of the states student body?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:52:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By guns762:

Originally Posted By JFP:

Originally Posted By leakycow:
Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII:
4. What is the criteria for getting the pay raise? Is it simply a % passing rate? If so, the teacher that raises her kids from 35% to 50% one year has shown tremendous improvement, but will that be recognized as good enough? After all, 50% is unimpressive by most standards. What about the teacher who is in a great suburban school who is a so-so teacher, but whose kids are so fundamentally strong that they manage a 98%? What if that teacher slips to 97% the next year?

These are just SOME problems that I immediately see springing up. There are bound to be others that arise. Time will tell.


that is down right scary



Most people don't think about this part when they talk about perfomance pay for teachers



Another problem is that teachers will now be incentivised to ENCOURAGE the lower-performing students to drop out of school, which can create a large societal problem.

The same effect can occur at the institutional level, if the school itself also has budget or other incentives that are tied to school performance on tests. Schools will have a clear interest is getting the low-scoring students to drop out of school, so they are no longer on the books, and pulling down the school grade.

So there's a danger that this kind of incentive structure will lead to very different approaches for "teaching" - the kids identified as the "good" ones will be supported and helped by the teachers and administrators, whereas the "bad" ones will be neglected and encouraged to drop out of school.

That may or may not be a bad approach per se, but it reflects a fundamental shift in philosophy of our schooling system, and should be made as a strategic decision (after a policy debate), NOT as a result of a shift in pay incentives.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:57:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JFP:
There appears to be quite a bit of conjecture/experience here that only bad ju-ju can come from the afore-mentioned practice of relating a teachers pay to their students test scores. Is there any hard evidence to support the idea that only negative results can come from this? Why would the state attempt to enact this process if it was proven to not be adequate in raising the overall standings of the states student body?



It sounded good when you first heard about it right? Kind of like gun control.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 11:11:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By guns762:

Originally Posted By JFP:
There appears to be quite a bit of conjecture/experience here that only bad ju-ju can come from the afore-mentioned practice of relating a teachers pay to their students test scores. Is there any hard evidence to support the idea that only negative results can come from this? Why would the state attempt to enact this process if it was proven to not be adequate in raising the overall standings of the states student body?



It sounded good when you first heard about it right? Kind of like gun control.


Actually we have a similar test here in Texas (TAAS, I believe is the acronym) that causes the teachers to be graded on the results and the sentiment was pretty much the same as what has been voiced in this thread.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 1:54:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JFP:

Originally Posted By guns762:

Originally Posted By JFP:
There appears to be quite a bit of conjecture/experience here that only bad ju-ju can come from the afore-mentioned practice of relating a teachers pay to their students test scores. Is there any hard evidence to support the idea that only negative results can come from this? Why would the state attempt to enact this process if it was proven to not be adequate in raising the overall standings of the states student body?



It sounded good when you first heard about it right? Kind of like gun control.


Actually we have a similar test here in Texas (TAAS, I believe is the acronym) that causes the teachers to be graded on the results and the sentiment was pretty much the same as what has been voiced in this thread.



TAAS went away half a dozen years ago. It's the TAKS test now (Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills). Teacher salaries aren't yet linked to the scores, and we're fighting to keep it that way. Rick Perry likes the idea, so I don't care for him on this issue. I don't hate and despise the TAKS test, but I just want it to be used for what it's meaningful and good for.

Why would Florida do this? Two big reasons:

1. Bush is governor in gatorland. His brother int he White House is a huge proponent of standardized tests as the prime criteria for determining everything from teacher salaries to school ratings to government funding.
2. Every politician on either end of the spectrum runs for office on the premise of being "for education" or "educationally minded" or this-and-that. One big push in school reform is for increased accountability for teachers. This is Jeb Bush's way to proclaim to the state that he's now holding teachers responsible for the education of YOUR CHILDREN. He doesn't know that he's inserting a business mindset into a system (whether flawed or not) that in its current state cannot possibly run under business mindsets.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 1:59:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 2:00:10 PM EDT by dolanp]
At best this will just teach kids how to do the easy stuff on the standardized tests better, and at worst (more likely) the kids will still be dumb and the teachers will cheat to get a raise. Hell they cheat now and their pay isn't tied to it, just so their school can get more money. Too much pressure is put on these standardized tests and it takes away from real learning.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 5:27:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dolanp:
At best this will just teach kids how to do the easy stuff on the standardized tests better, and at worst (more likely) the kids will still be dumb and the teachers will cheat to get a raise. Hell they cheat now and their pay isn't tied to it, just so their school can get more money. Too much pressure is put on these standardized tests and it takes away from real learning.



Not teachers, administrators!

Some of our funding is based on test scores. I've seen students asked to leave the school and get a G.E.D. It was never stated that it was for AYP, but it was pretty obvious; low achievers, with apathy to an education. Instead of encouraging them to improve, they were encouraged to quit and move on.
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