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Posted: 3/21/2006 5:28:01 PM EDT
Who posts/makes shit like that, jackasses....

Anyway,

Why is it that tannerite is still legal? Some one has got to be trying to ban it right???
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:35:21 PM EDT
go away
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:38:35 PM EDT
my first ibtl
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:40:07 PM EDT
ibtl!
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:41:10 PM EDT
umm why is this getting locked?

Could someone clue me in.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:47:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 5:48:03 PM EDT by C-4]

Originally Posted By enigma2y0u:
Why is it that tannerite is still legal?



Very good question. My understanding is that the manufacture of an explosive that contains more than 2 grains of material is illegal. Maybe I'm reading the law wrong. Once mixed, I know that you cannot transport Tannerite. But I still find many aspects of it confusing.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:48:05 PM EDT
2 words in the title more than likely got the .gov attention.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:48:37 PM EDT
I remember a thread about model rocket engines.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:51:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By enigma2y0u:
Why is it that tannerite is still legal?



Very good question. My understanding is that the manufacture of an explosive that contains more than 2 grains of material is illegal. Maybe I'm reading the law wrong. Once mixed, I know that you cannot transport Tannerite. But I still find many aspects of it confusing.



Hmm.. interesting. thanks for helping to answer my quesetion. I tried to read their website, but all I got out of it was they have a license and a patent which doesn't help me understand.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:51:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By enigma2y0u:
Why is it that tannerite is still legal?



Very good question. My understanding is that the manufacture of an explosive that contains more than 2 grains of material is illegal. Maybe I'm reading the law wrong. Once mixed, I know that you cannot transport Tannerite. But I still find many aspects of it confusing.



from what i understand, it is somewhat legal to manufacture a certain ammount of explosive for personal use. since tannerite comes as two inert powders that YOU assemble, in effect you are manufacturing your own explosives, and thus it is legal.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:52:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:59:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By enigma2y0u:
Hmm.. interesting. thanks for helping to answer my quesetion. I tried to read their website, but all I got out of it was they have a license and a patent which doesn't help me understand.



The BATF website is one of the most useless fucking websites on the planet. It is virtually impossible to do a search that yields useful information.

The form ordering set-up was created by a disorganized schizophrenic. The only saving grace is that once you do figure out how to order the forms, they arrive a couple of days later.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:00:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:08:13 PM EDT
Tannerite is on the level because it is binary.
You are the one who mixes it, so you are the maker.
You must then, of course, use it at the location you made it at.
So don't try to load your car up to make a car bomb - that would be illegal after all.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:11:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By enigma2y0u:
Why is it that tannerite is still legal?



Very good question. My understanding is that the manufacture of an explosive that contains more than 2 grains of material is illegal. Maybe I'm reading the law wrong. Once mixed, I know that you cannot transport Tannerite. But I still find many aspects of it confusing.



from what i understand, it is somewhat legal to manufacture a certain ammount of explosive for personal use. since tannerite comes as two inert powders that YOU assemble, in effect you are manufacturing your own explosives, and thus it is legal.



Well, I looked into getting a manufacturing license and it is a gigantic pain in the ass. Even after all of my research, I still don't see how two (or multi) component explosives are legal to make in quantities greater than 2 grains. That is the limit on the amount you can make without a Type 20 High Explosives Manufacturing license. It may sound paranoid, but I won't go near Tannerite.

If it is legal to make two-component high explosives then why can't you make PETN? The only ingredients are pentaerythritol and anhydrous nitric acid. If someone can explain the difference between PETN and Tannerite from a legal manufacture standpoint I'd be much obliged.

The 'list' of what you cannot manufacture (don't hotlink for obvious reasons):

http://www.atf.gov/explarson/explosives-list.htm
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:13:03 PM EDT
You know maybe, just maybe, he was actually going to use it to make rocket engines. A lot of wet panties here.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:14:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Tannerite is on the level because it is binary.
You are the one who mixes it, so you are the maker.
You must then, of course, use it at the location you made it at.



It would be hysterical to watch someone explain that to the jury at trial.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:17:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By enigma2y0u:
Why is it that tannerite is still legal?



Very good question. My understanding is that the manufacture of an explosive that contains more than 2 grains of material is illegal. Maybe I'm reading the law wrong. Once mixed, I know that you cannot transport Tannerite. But I still find many aspects of it confusing.



from what i understand, it is somewhat legal to manufacture a certain ammount of explosive for personal use. since tannerite comes as two inert powders that YOU assemble, in effect you are manufacturing your own explosives, and thus it is legal.



Well, I looked into getting a manufacturing license and it is a gigantic pain in the ass. Even after all of my research, I still don't see how two (or multi) component explosives are legal to make in quantities greater than 2 grains. That is the limit on the amount you can make without a Type 20 High Explosives Manufacturing license. It may sound paranoid, but I won't go near Tannerite.

If it is legal to make two-component high explosives then why can't you make PETN? The only ingredients are pentaerythritol and anhydrous nitric acid. If someone can explain the difference between PETN and Tannerite from a legal manufacture standpoint I'd be much obliged.

The 'list' of what you cannot manufacture (don't hotlink for obvious reasons):

http://www.atf.gov/explarson/explosives-list.htm



interesting
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:19:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By enigma2y0u:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By enigma2y0u:
Why is it that tannerite is still legal?



Very good question. My understanding is that the manufacture of an explosive that contains more than 2 grains of material is illegal. Maybe I'm reading the law wrong. Once mixed, I know that you cannot transport Tannerite. But I still find many aspects of it confusing.



from what i understand, it is somewhat legal to manufacture a certain ammount of explosive for personal use. since tannerite comes as two inert powders that YOU assemble, in effect you are manufacturing your own explosives, and thus it is legal.



Well, I looked into getting a manufacturing license and it is a gigantic pain in the ass. Even after all of my research, I still don't see how two (or multi) component explosives are legal to make in quantities greater than 2 grains. That is the limit on the amount you can make without a Type 20 High Explosives Manufacturing license. It may sound paranoid, but I won't go near Tannerite.

If it is legal to make two-component high explosives then why can't you make PETN? The only ingredients are pentaerythritol and anhydrous nitric acid. If someone can explain the difference between PETN and Tannerite from a legal manufacture standpoint I'd be much obliged.

The 'list' of what you cannot manufacture (don't hotlink for obvious reasons):

http://www.atf.gov/explarson/explosives-list.htm



interesting



However, in the case of PETN there is actually a chemical transformation, a new compound is formed. Tannerite (or ANFO) is just a mixture. (I agree with you, the law makes no sense but I'm just bringing up a point)
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:20:23 PM EDT
Cause its our damn right


Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:21:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:
Cause its our damn right





"The defense rests."
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:28:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheFreepster:

Originally Posted By enigma2y0u:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By enigma2y0u:
Why is it that tannerite is still legal?



Very good question. My understanding is that the manufacture of an explosive that contains more than 2 grains of material is illegal. Maybe I'm reading the law wrong. Once mixed, I know that you cannot transport Tannerite. But I still find many aspects of it confusing.



from what i understand, it is somewhat legal to manufacture a certain ammount of explosive for personal use. since tannerite comes as two inert powders that YOU assemble, in effect you are manufacturing your own explosives, and thus it is legal.



Well, I looked into getting a manufacturing license and it is a gigantic pain in the ass. Even after all of my research, I still don't see how two (or multi) component explosives are legal to make in quantities greater than 2 grains. That is the limit on the amount you can make without a Type 20 High Explosives Manufacturing license. It may sound paranoid, but I won't go near Tannerite.

If it is legal to make two-component high explosives then why can't you make PETN? The only ingredients are pentaerythritol and anhydrous nitric acid. If someone can explain the difference between PETN and Tannerite from a legal manufacture standpoint I'd be much obliged.

The 'list' of what you cannot manufacture (don't hotlink for obvious reasons):

http://www.atf.gov/explarson/explosives-list.htm



interesting



However, in the case of PETN there is actually a chemical transformation, a new compound is formed. Tannerite (or ANFO) is just a mixture. (I agree with you, the law makes no sense but I'm just bringing up a point)



Good point but you cannot manufacture an 'M-80' that contains more than 2 grains of an explosive mixture ie. aluminum powder + potassium perchlorate. Now, granted, an M-80 will detonate with a fuse whereas Tannerite requires a powerful shock either from a rifle bullet or a detonator. But you can see how this descends rapidly into a very gray legal area. Better to not go down that path.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:29:56 PM EDT
Damn. Now I'm going to have to order more Tannerite before Skippy up there gets the shit outlawed.


Woody
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:30:07 PM EDT
Just fucking enjoy the shit and blow things up.... Damn....
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:30:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By TheFreepster:

Originally Posted By enigma2y0u:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By enigma2y0u:
Why is it that tannerite is still legal?



Very good question. My understanding is that the manufacture of an explosive that contains more than 2 grains of material is illegal. Maybe I'm reading the law wrong. Once mixed, I know that you cannot transport Tannerite. But I still find many aspects of it confusing.



from what i understand, it is somewhat legal to manufacture a certain ammount of explosive for personal use. since tannerite comes as two inert powders that YOU assemble, in effect you are manufacturing your own explosives, and thus it is legal.



Well, I looked into getting a manufacturing license and it is a gigantic pain in the ass. Even after all of my research, I still don't see how two (or multi) component explosives are legal to make in quantities greater than 2 grains. That is the limit on the amount you can make without a Type 20 High Explosives Manufacturing license. It may sound paranoid, but I won't go near Tannerite.

If it is legal to make two-component high explosives then why can't you make PETN? The only ingredients are pentaerythritol and anhydrous nitric acid. If someone can explain the difference between PETN and Tannerite from a legal manufacture standpoint I'd be much obliged.

The 'list' of what you cannot manufacture (don't hotlink for obvious reasons):

http://www.atf.gov/explarson/explosives-list.htm



interesting



However, in the case of PETN there is actually a chemical transformation, a new compound is formed. Tannerite (or ANFO) is just a mixture. (I agree with you, the law makes no sense but I'm just bringing up a point)



Good point but you cannot manufacture an 'M-80' that contains more than 2 grains of an explosive mixture ie. aluminum powder + potassium perchlorate. Now, granted, an M-80 will detonate with a fuse whereas Tannerite requires a powerful shock either from a rifle bullet or a detonator. But you can see how this descends rapidly into a very gray legal area. Better to not go down that path.



As I said, I agree the law makes no sense, just pointing out that there is in fact a big difference between tannerite and PETN
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:31:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 6:33:35 PM EDT by KyBlaster]

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By enigma2y0u:
Why is it that tannerite is still legal?



Very good question. My understanding is that the manufacture of an explosive that contains more than 2 grains of material is illegal. Maybe I'm reading the law wrong. Once mixed, I know that you cannot transport Tannerite. But I still find many aspects of it confusing.



from what i understand, it is somewhat legal to manufacture a certain ammount of explosive for personal use. since tannerite comes as two inert powders that YOU assemble, in effect you are manufacturing your own explosives, and thus it is legal.



Well, I looked into getting a manufacturing license and it is a gigantic pain in the ass. Even after all of my research, I still don't see how two (or multi) component explosives are legal to make in quantities greater than 2 grains. That is the limit on the amount you can make without a Type 20 High Explosives Manufacturing license. It may sound paranoid, but I won't go near Tannerite.

If it is legal to make two-component high explosives then why can't you make PETN? The only ingredients are pentaerythritol and anhydrous nitric acid. If someone can explain the difference between PETN and Tannerite from a legal manufacture standpoint I'd be much obliged.

The 'list' of what you cannot manufacture (don't hotlink for obvious reasons):

http://www.atf.gov/explarson/explosives-list.htm



There is alot more to making PETN than simply mixing two legal, readily available, compounds together.

The key to legaly making binaries is that they are for non comercial use and are not for resale.
Also, you may not transport them and you have to use or dispose of them in less than 24 hours.

Having said that. Our friends at the ATF are trying to figure out how to regulate all Binaries.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:47:54 PM EDT
wouldn't ANFO fall into the category of being "binary"?

Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:00:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By yekimak:
wouldn't ANFO fall into the category of being "binary"?




Yes, but it will not detonate from a rifle bullet. It requires confinement which is wholly dependent on the diameter of the charge ie. the larger the charge diameter, the less confinement it requires.

So, for instance, a bore hole in solid granite would not have to be very wide because it provides heavy confinement of the charge. You still need a powerful charge to set it off ie. det cord + a booster of high explosives such as dynamite or TNT. ANFO just isn't as sensitive as AN mixed with powdered metals as in Tannerite.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:08:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheFreepster:
As I said, I agree the law makes no sense, just pointing out that there is in fact a big difference between tannerite and PETN



I hear ya. Another example of a binary fuel that should be legal to make, as KyBlaster points out, on site/used within 24 hours would be nitrobenzene and anhydrous nitric acid as in the WWI bombs dropped from planes. There were two chambers in the bomb and, as it fell, the small propellar at the nose of the bomb would open a barrier and allow the two liquids to mix making a shock sensitive explosive mixture/solution. There was no chemical reaction as nitrobenzene is difficult to nitrate because of the de-activating effect of the nitro group. When it hit the ground---BOOM! A rifle bullet would likely work as well.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:24:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By TheFreepster:
As I said, I agree the law makes no sense, just pointing out that there is in fact a big difference between tannerite and PETN



I hear ya. Another example of a binary fuel that should be legal to make, as KyBlaster points out, on site/used within 24 hours would be nitrobenzene and anhydrous nitric acid as in the WWI bombs dropped from planes. There were two chambers in the bomb and, as it fell, the small propellar at the nose of the bomb would open a barrier and allow the two liquids to mix making a shock sensitive explosive mixture/solution. There was no chemical reaction as nitrobenzene is difficult to nitrate because of the de-activating effect of the nitro group. When it hit the ground---BOOM! A rifle bullet would likely work as well.



very interesting. You know you boom-boom stuff
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:29:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:
Cause its our damn right





"The defense rests."



5, maybe 6 of your jurors will have voted for Kerry. Still confident?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:32:27 PM EDT

IBLT
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:33:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 8:34:46 PM EDT by rara1141]

Originally Posted By scotty1911:
my first ibtl



mine too


... that BLT is making me hungry
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 9:38:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheFreepster:
You know maybe, just maybe, he was actually going to use it to make rocket engines. A lot of wet panties here.



That would be ammonium perchlorate (same stuff as in the space shuttle solid rocket boosters). He wanted ammonium nitrate.

He named an explosive but needed a propellent.

Estes uses black powder to make their A through D engines. Anything larger and you should go to ammonium perchlorate, although many have used zinc dust sulfur, or sugar base motors.

As with guns, ATF is now too heavily involved in this wonderful hobby. And you can't shoot down an airliner with these (even with M motors) Every time we launch the same rocket, it goes in a different trajectory. There is no way to aim these things. We still make sure the sky is clear before launch.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 12:43:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By yekimak:
wouldn't ANFO fall into the category of being "binary"?




ANFO is a Blasting Agent. Not able to be dtonated with a # 8 Blasting Cap. And ANFO by defination is already mixed.

Binaries are generally High Explosives Class 1.1 and are able to be detonted with a # 8 blasting cap.

You could make ANFO but you would have hell of a time setting it off.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:40:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drrocket:

Originally Posted By TheFreepster:
You know maybe, just maybe, he was actually going to use it to make rocket engines. A lot of wet panties here.



That would be ammonium perchlorate (same stuff as in the space shuttle solid rocket boosters). He wanted ammonium nitrate.


He named an explosive but needed a propellent.

Estes uses black powder to make their A through D engines. Anything larger and you should go to ammonium perchlorate, although many have used zinc dust sulfur, or sugar base motors.

As with guns, ATF is now too heavily involved in this wonderful hobby. And you can't shoot down an airliner with these (even with M motors) Every time we launch the same rocket, it goes in a different trajectory. There is no way to aim these things. We still make sure the sky is clear before launch.



Not entirely correct. I have an acquaintance who has made ammonium nitrate/magnesium rocket motors. I did a quick search and there are many formulas out there for it:


Propellant 1 (Dec. 26, 2003)
# 19.27% (20%) R20LM HTPB
# 19.27% (20%) Magnesium (-650 to 1000 mesh)
# 57.8% (60%) PSAN-I Blend C Ammonium Nitrate
# 3.66% (Curing ratio = 0.19) Mondur MR MDI Curing Agent
# Burn rate coefficient = 0.0061
# Burn rate exponent = 0.507
# Propellant density = 0.0527 lbm/inch**3
# C-star range = 4100 to 3300 feet/second depending on motor size.
# Gamma = 1.23



www.space-rockets.com/prop.html

But you're absolutely correct that the Shuttle rocket boosters use aluminum powder and ammonium perchlorate. So the poster of the original thread could certainly have been looking for ammonium nitrate for rocket motors.

If you haven't tried this before, mix aluminum powder with sulfur in stochiometric amounts (3Al + 2S ---> Al2S3). It's a completely different result than what you would expect given what happens between Zn dust and Sulfur powder.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:42:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheFreepster:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By TheFreepster:
As I said, I agree the law makes no sense, just pointing out that there is in fact a big difference between tannerite and PETN



I hear ya. Another example of a binary fuel that should be legal to make, as KyBlaster points out, on site/used within 24 hours would be nitrobenzene and anhydrous nitric acid as in the WWI bombs dropped from planes. There were two chambers in the bomb and, as it fell, the small propellar at the nose of the bomb would open a barrier and allow the two liquids to mix making a shock sensitive explosive mixture/solution. There was no chemical reaction as nitrobenzene is difficult to nitrate because of the de-activating effect of the nitro group. When it hit the ground---BOOM! A rifle bullet would likely work as well.



very interesting. You know you boom-boom stuff



I have a degree in chemistry and absolutely love it. But I got sidetracked by med school.
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