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Posted: 3/20/2006 11:21:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:25:56 PM EDT
They dont like each other. Insofar they do, China like Russia weapons, Russia likes China's money.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:39:10 PM EDT
After china gets what it wants from Russia then what? That will be when things get intresting.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 1:47:10 AM EDT
This reminds me of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between the USSR and Nazi Germany. I reckon that this one will end MUCH worse. Neither side had nukes back then

Russia just doesn't get it.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 1:53:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lert:
This reminds me of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between the USSR and Nazi Germany. I reckon that this one will end MUCH worse. Neither side had nukes back then

Russia just doesn't get it.






I agree.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 2:01:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 2:45:50 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 2:41:53 AM EDT
OMG! It's the commies all over again! quick learn 'duck and cover' again! quick pump out hollywood reels about the 'yellow peril' and the 'red menace', dominoes i tells ya! dominoes! I never liked the idea of fighting "islamic terrorists" anyway. Now the commies, THAT was an enemy! I actually kinda missed 'em Come back stalin, come back! come back now and we'll even give you Mexico and Japan as "soviet satelites"! Red dawn baby, red dawn! Without the "evil empire" we reaganites got nutin'. We spent billions on missle defense only to get knocked in the balls by some dickheads with box cutters (boy was our face red). Why oh why did you let us down?? Crying about how Liberals and Cuba are "commies" just does'nt have the same fear factor effect that it had before on the sheeple! orders placed on my conservative book club "anti-commie" books have plunged, now everyone wants to know about Saw-die ay-raabia. you go through all the time and trouble to write a 10000 page book about the evil of Sino-Soviet domination and ya get the rug pulled out from under ya! please come back, Please!
Love always, t-stox.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 2:43:20 AM EDT
Pentagon would sure like them to get together. Would get us more F22s.............
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 7:11:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Lert:
This reminds me of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between the USSR and Nazi Germany. I reckon that this one will end MUCH worse. Neither side had nukes back then

Russia just doesn't get it.



Oh I don't know so much…

Russia wants to be the big kid on the block in Europe… China wants to be the big player in the Pacific Rim…

Mutually beneficial to both sides to put a split in spheres of influence in place.

ANdy



yep, a new & significant long term alliance against the U.S. ,
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:49:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Lert:
This reminds me of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between the USSR and Nazi Germany. I reckon that this one will end MUCH worse. Neither side had nukes back then

Russia just doesn't get it.



Oh I don't know so much…

Russia wants to be the big kid on the block in Europe… China wants to be the big player in the Pacific Rim…

Mutually beneficial to both sides to put a split in spheres of influence in place.

ANdy



So you're thinking more along the lines of an Axis then? Given that China has nothing that Russia wants, bar money, and that Russia has everything that China wants, what happens when the marriage of convienience breaks down. These guys hate each other, and couldn't even get along when they were on the same ideological page. Sure its mutually beneficial for them to work together, but I give it about as much chance of success as I do France and Germany, or maybe France and Britain living inder the same roof.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:52:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Lert:
This reminds me of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between the USSR and Nazi Germany. I reckon that this one will end MUCH worse. Neither side had nukes back then

Russia just doesn't get it.



Oh I don't know so much…

Russia wants to be the big kid on the block in Europe… China wants to be the big player in the Pacific Rim…

Mutually beneficial to both sides to put a split in spheres of influence in place.

ANdy



Where have we heard that before?

Japan had the "Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere" & I can't remember what the Nazi hemisphere was going to be called.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:55:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:57:32 AM EDT
The Chicoms and the Soviets always hated eachother, and Mao was a major-league asshole to Khrushchev.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:00:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Originally Posted By t-stox:
OMG! It's the commies all over again! quick learn 'duck and cover' again! quick pump out hollywood reels about the 'yellow peril' and the 'red menace', dominoes i tells ya! dominoes! I never liked the idea of fighting "islamic terrorists" anyway. Now the commies, THAT was an enemy! I actually kinda missed 'em Come back stalin, come back! come back now and we'll even give you Mexico and Japan as "soviet satelites"! Red dawn baby, red dawn! Without the "evil empire" we reaganites got nutin'. We spent billions on missle defense only to get knocked in the balls by some dickheads with box cutters (boy was our face red). Why oh why did you let us down?? Crying about how Liberals and Cuba are "commies" just does'nt have the same fear factor effect that it had before on the sheeple! orders placed on my conservative book club "anti-commie" books have plunged, now everyone wants to know about Saw-die ay-raabia. you go through all the time and trouble to write a 10000 page book about the evil of Sino-Soviet domination and ya get the rug pulled out from under ya! please come back, Please!
Love always, t-stox.



You read my mind. Not kidding.

TRG



So ... what would you have us do? Just sit on our hands and wait until someone (Russia or China, or both...) decides we are taking up too many resources (oil for example) and decide to

• invade an oil-rich nation and appropriate it all for themselves, or

• nuke the US preemptively to keep us out of their affairs (see first bullet), or...

• both

You MUST think 10 and even 20 years ahead strategically. Even if it comes out to be totally wrong...

If you don't think Russia and China are thinking that far ahead, you are sadly mistaken. By way of allegory, Russians are chess players... they're thinking not one or two moves ahead, but five or more moves ahead.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:01:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:01:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
OMG! It's the commies all over again! quick learn 'duck and cover' again! quick pump out hollywood reels about the 'yellow peril' and the 'red menace', dominoes i tells ya! dominoes! I never liked the idea of fighting "islamic terrorists" anyway. Now the commies, THAT was an enemy! I actually kinda missed 'em Come back stalin, come back! come back now and we'll even give you Mexico and Japan as "soviet satelites"! Red dawn baby, red dawn! Without the "evil empire" we reaganites got nutin'. We spent billions on missle defense only to get knocked in the balls by some dickheads with box cutters (boy was our face red). Why oh why did you let us down?? Crying about how Liberals and Cuba are "commies" just does'nt have the same fear factor effect that it had before on the sheeple! orders placed on my conservative book club "anti-commie" books have plunged, now everyone wants to know about Saw-die ay-raabia. you go through all the time and trouble to write a 10000 page book about the evil of Sino-Soviet domination and ya get the rug pulled out from under ya! please come back, Please!
Love always, t-stox.



Thank goodness someone gets it.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:07:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Lert:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Lert:
This reminds me of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between the USSR and Nazi Germany. I reckon that this one will end MUCH worse. Neither side had nukes back then

Russia just doesn't get it.



Oh I don't know so much…

Russia wants to be the big kid on the block in Europe… China wants to be the big player in the Pacific Rim…

Mutually beneficial to both sides to put a split in spheres of influence in place.

ANdy



So you're thinking more along the lines of an Axis then? Given that China has nothing that Russia wants, bar money, and that Russia has everything that China wants, what happens when the marriage of convienience breaks down. These guys hate each other, and couldn't even get along when they were on the same ideological page. Sure its mutually beneficial for them to work together, but I give it about as much chance of success as I do France and Germany, or maybe France and Britain living inder the same roof.



Indeed, you are right, and IMHO that is all the more reason why they would want such an 'arrangement'. Yes, they are idealogically oppossed, but I see this as more of a means of keeping each other busy mischief making in their own spheres and avaoiding any 'upleasantness' between them until it suites them.

ANdy



So your timeline would be

Russia and China make friends
Russia and China make trouble
One or the other partner decides that "unpleasantness" suits them and makes trouble with the other

I would vote on China making trouble with Russia. Like I said, sounds like Molotov-Ribbentrop all over again, this time with canned sunshine.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:20:58 AM EDT
Recommended (fictional) reading on this topic: Tom Clancy's "The Bear And The Dragon"
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 3:51:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Originally Posted By t-stox:
OMG! It's the commies all over again! quick learn 'duck and cover' again! quick pump out hollywood reels about the 'yellow peril' and the 'red menace', dominoes i tells ya! dominoes! I never liked the idea of fighting "islamic terrorists" anyway. Now the commies, THAT was an enemy! I actually kinda missed 'em Come back stalin, come back! come back now and we'll even give you Mexico and Japan as "soviet satelites"! Red dawn baby, red dawn! Without the "evil empire" we reaganites got nutin'. We spent billions on missle defense only to get knocked in the balls by some dickheads with box cutters (boy was our face red). Why oh why did you let us down?? Crying about how Liberals and Cuba are "commies" just does'nt have the same fear factor effect that it had before on the sheeple! orders placed on my conservative book club "anti-commie" books have plunged, now everyone wants to know about Saw-die ay-raabia. you go through all the time and trouble to write a 10000 page book about the evil of Sino-Soviet domination and ya get the rug pulled out from under ya! please come back, Please!
Love always, t-stox.



You read my mind. Not kidding.

TRG



So ... what would you have us do? Just sit on our hands and wait until someone (Russia or China, or both...) decides we are taking up too many resources (oil for example) and decide to

• invade an oil-rich nation and appropriate it all for themselves, or

• nuke the US preemptively to keep us out of their affairs (see first bullet), or...

• both

You MUST think 10 and even 20 years ahead strategically. Even if it comes out to be totally wrong...

If you don't think Russia and China are thinking that far ahead, you are sadly mistaken. By way of allegory, Russians are chess players... they're thinking not one or two moves ahead, but five or more moves ahead.


Have you been watching deep space 9 reruns?? What are they? the new dominion?
I just dont buy this whole "fighting yesterdays battles" thing. The most that Russia and China represent is econmic cooperation, CAPITALIST style! China is People rich, resource poor, Russia is people poor (sort of, they have a declining birth rate and a low density ratio) but resource rich. But i dont see them in any way threatening our geo-political plans, more so now that i belive that Muslim Coutries are the threat now NOT china or Russia. In fact a "tri-partitie" Axis of the US, China and Russia against Islamic theocracy is virtually undefeatable. I'd like to include Europe in that pact but they are useless talk-o-crats. The only thing i dont like about China is thier hogging up of a lot of resources but they have that right! to piss them off for buying too much oil and copper will only make things bad and for what? WE've been hogs for a long time too. Now we know how it feels. In fact both China and Russia historically (1776-1945) have always been 'For' the US, or at least have been at odds with the same people that we are at odds with now (muslims), they are a natural ally, Saudi arabia and pakistan ARE NOT! Then you gotta throw India into the mix, Bush visting them to cement "agreements" was the best thing he could do. Again they are a natural ally against Islamic expansionism. This is a scenario we have to consider in the future in which a Indo-Russo-Sino pact (<-- hey you like that wording? i just made it up) would become inevitable. Here it is, #1 the US and Isreal do nothing about Iran and she gets the bomb. All the appeasers thought she would act "reasonable" once she got it and would take "M.A.D" serious enough, but she does'nt, she Begins saying that the palis must have the right of return or ELSE, The Shiite in the South of Lebanon suddenly have "uber rockets" (supplied by iran) and begin lobbing them into Isreal, Isreal retaliates BUT Iran says that if one IDF soldier steps foot on "soverign Lebanese soil" they will nuke Tel aviv. In iraq The shia Militia begin attacking US troops with Iranian intel officers behind it. Iran calls for withdrawal of us immediatly. What can we do about it? nothing. And finally, a resurgent Taliban manages to assassinate Musharref, riots erupt all over pakistan led by radical Imams, They manage to sieze power! Now a new taliban govt in pakistan revokes all agreements with the US calling them "satan". They will no longer aid us in the GWOT. Although they deny it, it seems that Osama bin laden is alive and well in pakistan and because the paki army is now taliban controlled they leave him alone, he begins setting up all new terror camps in Pakistan. The US can do nothing because Pakistan has the bomb. These new camps train fighters who end up in Afghanistan. Pakistan turns to India and makes demands that Kashmir be turned over to them OR else! The also ebgin flooding terrorists into India to attack for kashmir. With Pakistan and Iran as belligerent islamic nuclear powers the shit truly will hit the fan, we'll need friends and not act unilaterally like some neo-con idiot.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 9:27:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
Then you gotta throw India into the mix, Bush visting them to cement "agreements" was the best thing he could do. Again they are a natural ally against Islamic expansionism. This is a scenario we have to consider in the future in which a Indo-Russo-Sino pact (<-- hey you like that wording? i just made it up) would become inevitable. Here it is, #1 the US and Isreal do nothing about Iran and she gets the bomb. All the appeasers thought she would act "reasonable" once she got it and would take "M.A.D" serious enough, but she does'nt, she Begins saying that the palis must have the right of return or ELSE, The Shiite in the South of Lebanon suddenly have "uber rockets" (supplied by iran) and begin lobbing them into Isreal, Isreal retaliates BUT Iran says that if one IDF soldier steps foot on "soverign Lebanese soil" they will nuke Tel aviv. In iraq The shia Militia begin attacking US troops with Iranian intel officers behind it. Iran calls for withdrawal of us immediatly. What can we do about it? nothing. And finally, a resurgent Taliban manages to assassinate Musharref, riots erupt all over pakistan led by radical Imams, They manage to sieze power! Now a new taliban govt in pakistan revokes all agreements with the US calling them "satan". They will no longer aid us in the GWOT. Although they deny it, it seems that Osama bin laden is alive and well in pakistan and because the paki army is now taliban controlled they leave him alone, he begins setting up all new terror camps in Pakistan. The US can do nothing because Pakistan has the bomb. These new camps train fighters who end up in Afghanistan. Pakistan turns to India and makes demands that Kashmir be turned over to them OR else! The also ebgin flooding terrorists into India to attack for kashmir. With Pakistan and Iran as belligerent islamic nuclear powers the shit truly will hit the fan, we'll need friends and not act unilaterally like some neo-con idiot.



that is scary plausible
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 9:30:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lert:


So you're thinking more along the lines of an Axis then?
Given that China has nothing that Russia wants, bar money, and that Russia has everything that China wants,
what happens when the marriage of convienience breaks down. These guys hate each other, and couldn't even get along when they were on the same ideological page. Sure its mutually beneficial for them to work together, but I give it about as much chance of success as I do France and Germany, or maybe France and Britain living inder the same roof.



Russia NEEDS all that disposable income China has &

Russia has plenty of oil, gas, metals, & weapons technology to sell
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 9:37:00 PM EDT
I think it's as simple as "keep your friends close.... but your enemies closer."
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 9:45:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By Lert:


So you're thinking more along the lines of an Axis then?
Given that China has nothing that Russia wants, bar money, and that Russia has everything that China wants,
what happens when the marriage of convienience breaks down. These guys hate each other, and couldn't even get along when they were on the same ideological page. Sure its mutually beneficial for them to work together, but I give it about as much chance of success as I do France and Germany, or maybe France and Britain living inder the same roof.



Russia NEEDS all that disposable income China has &

Russia has plenty of oil, gas, metals, & weapons technology to sell



Sure, I agree with that. However, what happens when Russia decides that China is becomming too powerful, and decides to limit the sale of those resources or weapons for geopolitical reasons? The Russians and the Chinese, but especially the Russians, are creatures of politics, not profit. Sure, they like money, but power is much more important. How happy do you think Russia will be with a giant, prosperous, well-armed historical enemy right next door who's eyes are looking for opportunities both East and West? What will China do when told "no"?
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:02:03 AM EDT
Whatever happens to Russia now, I'd say they deserve it.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:59:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:

Have you been watching deep space 9 reruns?? What are they? the new dominion?
I just dont buy this whole "fighting yesterdays battles" thing. The most that Russia and China represent is econmic cooperation, CAPITALIST style! China is People rich, resource poor, Russia is people poor (sort of, they have a declining birth rate and a low density ratio) but resource rich. But i dont see them in any way threatening our geo-political plans, more so now that i belive that Muslim Coutries are the threat now NOT china or Russia. In fact a "tri-partitie" Axis of the US, China and Russia against Islamic theocracy is virtually undefeatable. I'd like to include Europe in that pact but they are useless talk-o-crats. The only thing i dont like about China is thier hogging up of a lot of resources but they have that right! to piss them off for buying too much oil and copper will only make things bad and for what? WE've been hogs for a long time too. Now we know how it feels. In fact both China and Russia historically (1776-1945) have always been 'For' the US, or at least have been at odds with the same people that we are at odds with now (muslims), they are a natural ally, Saudi arabia and pakistan ARE NOT! Then you gotta throw India into the mix, Bush visting them to cement "agreements" was the best thing he could do. Again they are a natural ally against Islamic expansionism. This is a scenario we have to consider in the future in which a Indo-Russo-Sino pact (<-- hey you like that wording? i just made it up) would become inevitable. Here it is, #1 the US and Isreal do nothing about Iran and she gets the bomb. All the appeasers thought she would act "reasonable" once she got it and would take "M.A.D" serious enough, but she does'nt, she Begins saying that the palis must have the right of return or ELSE, The Shiite in the South of Lebanon suddenly have "uber rockets" (supplied by iran) and begin lobbing them into Isreal, Isreal retaliates BUT Iran says that if one IDF soldier steps foot on "soverign Lebanese soil" they will nuke Tel aviv. In iraq The shia Militia begin attacking US troops with Iranian intel officers behind it. Iran calls for withdrawal of us immediatly. What can we do about it? nothing. And finally, a resurgent Taliban manages to assassinate Musharref, riots erupt all over pakistan led by radical Imams, They manage to sieze power! Now a new taliban govt in pakistan revokes all agreements with the US calling them "satan". They will no longer aid us in the GWOT. Although they deny it, it seems that Osama bin laden is alive and well in pakistan and because the paki army is now taliban controlled they leave him alone, he begins setting up all new terror camps in Pakistan. The US can do nothing because Pakistan has the bomb. These new camps train fighters who end up in Afghanistan. Pakistan turns to India and makes demands that Kashmir be turned over to them OR else! The also ebgin flooding terrorists into India to attack for kashmir. With Pakistan and Iran as belligerent islamic nuclear powers the shit truly will hit the fan, we'll need friends and not act unilaterally like some neo-con idiot.



Interesting assessments. Thanks for keeping it civil as well.

I agree with you for the most part. I just see things stacking up a little differently than you do. Frankly I hope you're right.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 8:51:58 AM EDT
T-Stox, paragraphs are your friends!

Good post though

TXL
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