It's corrosive in concentrations over 10%.

It attracts water, and therefore cannot be shipped via pipeline and has to be mixed with gasoline at the distrubition point again adding to the cost.

Air/fuel ratios are adjusted via the EEC using many sensors, one being the o2 sensor in the exhaust. When ethanol is added it has effect on what the sensor reads, so unless the car is calibrated for the blend its usefulness becomes questionable.

Shockergd,

If I read what you wrote correctly, are you saying that the hybrid sorgum plant can be grown all year in the south and throughout most of America? If so, wow I need to buy into some ethanol stocks.

Yep , from the various studies that i've read , it can be grown all year round in some states. The big thing with sorghum bicolor hybrids is the fact it doesn't have to mature till the stocks have thier sugar properties. You harvest the plant when its reached its optimum height/weight , not when it's 'matured'.  India and china are spending millions on researching hybrid sorghum as the end-all to thier gasoline woes. Not only does ethanol work as a automotive fuel , but you can heat a house with it too :)

A friend of mine turned me onto hybrid sorghum as a means to produce cheap ethanol ,and when i mean cheap , i'm meaning 25-50 cents per gallon of finished product.  Ethanol DOES attract water, but so does gasoline. If you're able to use 98% ethanol and 2% water , it burns extremely well. I don't know if anyone remembers it , but back in ww2 , alot of airplaines had something called WEP ( war emergency power) It injected alot of water into the avgas mixture to increase its oxygen rating and increase power output by 10% or so.

Ethanol is only corrosive on some seals , in the 80s , regan mandated that all vehicles have seals and gaskets that were ethanol-ready. A few of the materials used in gaskets in the 70s had issues with ethanol. I read a study off of google a while back that delt with a lab running tests on ethanol versus gasoline on the caustic effects ,and ethanol won hands down.

Quoted: Just for refrence , i've done quite a bit of research on ethanol here last year and am hoping on building a ethanol plant in central ohio.... E85 in my small , small town of about 12k people , we have 1 e85 gas station. It currently sells e85 for around $2.00 a gallon. There's alot of confusion about subsidies , but what it breaks down to is about 5 cents per gallon of e85. Its 5 cents per gallon of fuel that contains ethanol in it , that includes e5  , e10 , ect. Some companies sell ethanol to gas stations that ONLY sell e10 ,and make a 50 cent profit via the subsity. Ethanol is currently made from corn for the sole reason of america producing about 50% more corn than actually needed. Once the ethanol process is over , about 17 pounds of distillers grain is left over that can be used for animal feed or high protein foodsuffs. There's about 3 dozen or so types of grains/plants that currently can be used in america. Corn isn't that efficient over the other types , you gain only about 4% in the total energy cycle (if anyone tells you that it LOOSES energy , they're using a very popular statistic from the USDA circa 1978-79 when bushel yields were much lower than they are now for corn. Brazil uses sugar cane to grow thier ethanol and it works awesome. Currently they're working on using sorghum bicolor in the same way that they use sugar cane down there. For refrence ,the special hybrid sorghum plants produce no seeds , but grow about 12feet high , and produce 40 tons of stock per acre. The whole plant , roots included is used in the ethanol process. Using hybridized sorgum yields about 10 times the ethanol from a equal acre of corn. Right now the main problem is transportation , a field in ohio can be upto 5000 acres, and 5000ac x 40 tons per acre means 200kt of product in one year time! Not only can it be grown in most states , but in the south , it can potentially be grown all year around ( about twice a year , maybe 3). Right now , ethanol with a 5 cent govt subsidy sells for $1.25 cents per gallon on the market .  Gas stations are allowed to provide a markup with ethanol , versus the hit that most corporately owned gas stations (speedway , ect). The price of ethanol has been going down since its initial public debut in the 70s. Back then it cost around $3 a gallon to produce (inflation factored in). The agricultural market rarely spikes , so its very doubtful that we'd see prices double over night. Ethanol plants can be built anywhere crops are. Most are in rural , central midwest states ( ohio has around half a dozen) so they're not prone to hurricanes and such. Most plants produce several million gallons a year ( versus much more with a oil refinery) Which means , you're not likely to knock out a good % of them in a natural disaster. Another great thing with ethanol is the effect it has on big block engines. v4s , v6s may notice mpg decrease due to the high octane level of ethanol. Big trucks on the other hand , can have about a 20% increase in total MPG versus normal gasoline ( can be more in comparison if the truck is hauling). Another added benefit with ethanol is it cleans the carbs out on a car very well , in fact , look at what's in a bottle of engine cleaner , its either ethanol or methanol (something close to ethanol but made with wood.) Finally , the problem that EVERYONE talks about is the need to "buy a new vehicle to use it" Whic is true to a point , but a modification can be done to almost every vehicle to allow it to use it. Modification can include seal replacement , boring of pistons , but for most 90-00 vehicles , all that's needed is new fuel injection programming for the 110 octane level of ethanol fuel. All in all , i LOVE ethanol ,  the great thing is , ANYONE can make the stuff. A friend of mine made a batch of ethanol with common household equipment ( and $1 worth of yeast from walmart). Although the ATF sucks on gun regulations ,thier regulations dealing with ethanol are quite lax ( if you're under 10kgal/year , you're only required a expirmenters permit).

Now this is the stuff I like to hear. I really would like to see this stuff work and cut our overall dependancy on foreign oil.

Does the making of ethanol have an adverse effect on the environment? Any bad bi-products? Does it run any cleaner in the car? I know, I sound like a hippie, but I think that info may help sell it.

Farmers produce way more grain than what is needed... including to the point that it puts them out of business. Every few years the government has to bail their ass out by buying up all of the excess crop to keep prices from dropping through the floor and they default on all of thier loans.  I belive it was back in the 80's there was a huge glut in crop prices and farmers all over the country defaulted on thier loans. This damn near put every farm equipment manufacturer out of business. That is how AGCO was formed. Hell the dairy my mom lived on was bought out by the government and the cows were slaughtered to help reduce milk production and improve prices. Dairymen get together fairly often to talk about herd reduction.... If any other company did that it would be considered price fixing.

Quoted: Yeah but the beauty of it is, many farmers are being subsidized to NOT produce anything... Get them all growing corn or sugar beets, and maybe we can make a dent in America's gas consumption problems.

Well, corn is being over-produced...they subsidize the over-production by keeping the target price above what it would be otherwise (the world price).  But other farmers are paid to not plant--for example the "conservation reserve".  Sugar beets are subsidized in their own way...there is a sugar quota which keeps US sugar prices way above world prices.  

GunLvr

My friend Steve who is a fellow turbo mustanger, converted his 1300 rear wheel horsepower turbo mustang to run on E85, it was awesome, the price of fuel was around 1.90 when he did it.  E85 is 108 octane and enabled him to make well over 1100 rwhp on that fuel with moderate boost.  Compare that to the price of C16 racing fuel at 10 dollars a gallon and you get the picture very quick.



For people that need high octane, no one cares about the reduced mileage for the increase of octane.

Quoted: Ok, we have seen that it takes "2 gallons of fuel to get 1 of ethnol", now how many gallons are used to find, drill, pump, transport, refine, and transport raw crude?  In most cases, the oil we buy now is shipped from half way around the world.  E85 would come from our backyard and would increase the amount of money that says in the US.  I will most certainly agree that E85 will not replace gasoline, but it will put a dent into it and anything is better then the status quo. Another draw back to your scenario is that you can't by ethanol cars in the US. You can buy flex fuel Impalas and Taurus right now.  In fact, I think all of the base model Impalas are flex fuel standard. As much as folks on this board hate to hear about it, the best solution right now are hybrids. They run on existing refueling infrastructure while doubling the gas milaege. Toyota will be introducing the hybrid Tundra early next year, so all you truck fans will have a hybrid option in a fullsized pick-em-up. The Sienna mini van will launch later this year. The technology on these vehicles is excellent right now and will only improve with decreasing unit cost and accumulating "real road" testing. Big deal, Chevrolet and Dodge are already offering hybrid pickups.  It still remains to be seen if hybrids will handle the beating most trucks take.  An interesting spin on hybrids is Ford's gas/hydraulic hybrid that is supposed to get 50 mpg in an F150 and not have a reduction in towing/power capability.

Chevy and Dodge do NOT make true hybrid technology vehicles.  They make "phoney hybrids".  They are capitalizing on the hybrid name and selling vehicles with totally different fuel saving technology.

Quoted: Well DUH to you too. But you said the distribution was a major drawback to ethanol, which in reality it is a plus for ethanol. If you meant that you can't run out and buy ethanol because no one sells it then don't mention distribution as being a draw back. Another draw back to your scenario is that you can't by ethanol cars in the US.

Right!
There is a distribution problem because gas stations will have to sell both conventional and alternative fuels.  Many (most) of them do not have enough tanks or pumps to do both right now.

But why worry about ethanol and biodiesel.  They're for losers anyway.

Just go out right now and buy a new Toyota hybrid, or later this year or next?  Take the $3,150.00 Federal tax credit against your taxes for this year '06 and (in many cases) the State $500.00 rebate and you'll have $3,650.00 (at least 15% total invoice!) against the cost of a car that will get 50mpg!!

What are you waiting for?

Love the conversation, guys, but I gotta go.  It's quittin' time and I am outta here!

SWIRE Stated:
What do you mean the only way E85 will take off? E85 has already taken off and is already here!
Take off as in at every gas station not just a few.

Well at leasts in the midwest where most of the corn is grown and people are trying to figure out what to do with all the corn.
I live in Missouri in the Midwest I think 15 gas stations in the state have it.

While it is true that currently there isn't enoug farm land to replace all of the oil that doesn't mean crops can't be genetically altered so they result in higher ethanol output or that the refining process won't become more efficient. But who said we need to replace 100% of the oil immediately anyway?
Read the first post in the thread by shop_rat45:  he stated I really think it can help ween us from foreign oil.I interrupted that to mean some time in the future we don’t import oil.

Of the top 10 oil consuming nations the US is first, we consume just as much oil as the other 9 nations combined. If we cut our oil usage by 50% the market would be flooded with oil. That would be enough for me until we figured out hydrogen fuel cells.
Hydrogen fuel cells are great, but I don’t think you will see wide use of them in cars. Remember propane cars from the 70’s?  They are still cheaper to run than gas today. They didn’t take off because it is more complicated to fill up than a gas car and some propane powered trucks exploded. I read a story about one at an automatic carwash scared people away. Don’t get me wrong I would love to see fuel cells and ethanol as a fuel. But the truth is when we close to replacing oil the oil companies drop the price were it is not economical to do.

Has Toyota ever claimed to make a profit from the Prius, or are they still selling it at a loss?

We have 3 stations that pump it in Tucson all which can online within the last year.  

Quoted:
Sugar CANE does, it just does not grow in temperate climates.  Sugar Beets are #2, BUT will grow in the US.

You are correct! I should have stated that sugar beets produce the most ethanol per acre of crops grown in most of the US

But the truth is when we close to replacing oil the oil companies drop the price were it is not economical to do.

sometimes it is better to plan for the future than to react to it...

One of the things that are never mentioned in threads like this one is farm subsidies…

The government currently subsidizes about 70% of U.S. farm production because of the massive price deflation in the late 70s and early 80s. These subsidies cost us around 100 billion a year. (Yes with a b)  

Biodiesel and Ethanol gas will increase demand to the point that these subsidies can be killed off.

Another thing about Bio-fuels is that they just burn cleaner. A switch from oil based fuels would make things like catalytic converters, smog pumps and other pollution controls on vehicles unnecessary. - Saving weight, costs and increasing fuel economy over the standard “Mixed-fuel” vehicles.

When you look at ALL the variables Bio-fuels have big advantages over the other stuff right now.

Brazil would be a good “case-study” for those of you really interested in the subject.

Chevy and Dodge do NOT make true hybrid technology vehicles. They make "phoney hybrids". They are capitalizing on the hybrid name and selling vehicles with totally different fuel saving technology.

 I guess anything that helps save gas is crap unless it says toyota on it.  Kind of funny since the first hybrid on the market, Honda Insite, is your so called "phony hybrid" which brings about the definition of hybrid, two/multiple ways of propulsion.

BTW: For those of you engaging in the Sugar cane argument. There’s a genetically engineered corn that has a glucose/sucrose  content about 95% of sugar cane. It’s made by Dekalb seeds. It also takes less energy to distill than sugar cane.

One of the studies I saw used the corn stalks and bacteria to fuel the distillation process and actually used almost no energy although the bacterial breakdown process took like three months.

Quoted: Quoted: Ok, we have seen that it takes "2 gallons of fuel to get 1 of ethnol", now how many gallons are used to find, drill, pump, transport, refine, and transport raw crude?  In most cases, the oil we buy now is shipped from half way around the world.  E85 would come from our backyard and would increase the amount of money that says in the US.  I will most certainly agree that E85 will not replace gasoline, but it will put a dent into it and anything is better then the status quo. Another draw back to your scenario is that you can't by ethanol cars in the US. You can buy flex fuel Impalas and Taurus right now.  In fact, I think all of the base model Impalas are flex fuel standard. As much as folks on this board hate to hear about it, the best solution right now are hybrids. They run on existing refueling infrastructure while doubling the gas milaege. Toyota will be introducing the hybrid Tundra early next year, so all you truck fans will have a hybrid option in a fullsized pick-em-up. The Sienna mini van will launch later this year. The technology on these vehicles is excellent right now and will only improve with decreasing unit cost and accumulating "real road" testing. Big deal, Chevrolet and Dodge are already offering hybrid pickups.  It still remains to be seen if hybrids will handle the beating most trucks take.  An interesting spin on hybrids is Ford's gas/hydraulic hybrid that is supposed to get 50 mpg in an F150 and not have a reduction in towing/power capability. Chevy and Dodge do NOT make true hybrid technology vehicles.  They make "phoney hybrids".  They are capitalizing on the hybrid name and selling vehicles with totally different fuel saving technology.

What is "phony" about them?