This is why you should ignore the "No Firearms" signs

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - This is why you should ignore the "No Firearms" signs

Posted: 3/16/2006 10:59:04 PM EDT

If you know of a restaurant, store, or anywhere else that has a 'no firearms' sign posted, be sure to inform and remind them of the Luby's Cafeteria massacre that happened in 1991 in Texas.

October 17, 1991
Gunman Kills 22 and Himself in Texas Cafeteria
By THOMAS C. HAYES,

A man smashed a pickup truck into a busy restaurant at lunchtime here today, stepped out of the cab, shot 22 people dead and wounded at least 20 others.

As blood-drenched patrons and employees tried to scramble to safety, dozens of police officers arrived and exchanged gunfire with the man, apparently wounding him. He then shot and killed himself with a bullet through the left eye, witnesses said.

The 23 deaths make the attack the worst mass shooting ever to occur in the United States. The police said the killer, a 35-year-old man, reloaded and emptied his Glock-17, a semiautomatic .9 millimeter pistol, several times.

About 80 people were in the restaurant, many of them taking a break from work with their superiors on National Boss's Day.

Tonight the police identifed the killer as George Jo Hennard of Belton, which is about 10 miles east of this Central Texas town. They declined to provide any more information about him.

"He was firing at anyone he could shoot," Sam Wink, a Killeen resident, said in a television interview. Mr. Wink said he was in the restaurant, Luby's Cafeteria, at the time of the shooting and saw the pickup plow through the window. The gunman "had tons of ammo on him," Mr. Wink said.

He said the gunman noticed him on the floor and pointed his pistol at him. "I thought I bought the farm," Mr. Wink said, adding that he was saved when a woman got up to run and the gunman fired at her instead.

Another witness described the gunman shooting "as fast as he could pull the trigger."

Police Chief Francis L. Giacomozzi said he knew of no motive for the shootings.
House Is Cordoned Off

Twenty miles away, in Belton, law-enforcement officials cordoned off the four-bedroom house where Mr. Hennard lived alone. The house belonged to his parents and was up for sale.

Tonight, Mr. Hennard's father arrived at house. He declined to answer questions, but did say: "It's a tragedy; it's monstrous. It was a nightmare driving here. I can't believe it."

Gina Hennard, Mr. Hennard's mother who lives in Henderson, Nev., said in a telephone interview that she had been out of the house and was not aware of the killings late tonight. When contacted later, she said: "I just can't talk now. My concern is my son is dead and those other people."

Neighbors of Mr. Hennard in Belton said that on occasion he would come out of his house screaming. The neighbors, Jana Jernigan, Jill Fritz and their mother, Jane Bugg, produced a a photocopy of a long, rambling letter Mr. Hennard had sent to them this summer from Henderson. They said they turned over the letter to the police when it arrived.

"Please give me the satisfaction of some day laughing in the face of all those mostly white treacherous female vipers from those two towns who tried to destroy me and my family," one passage said.

Tonight Belton Police Chief Roy Kneese also responded to assertions made by neighbors that the police should have acted in some way after Mr. Hennard wrote the letter.

"There was nothing we could file charges on him for," Chief Kneese said. "There was nothing in that letter. It seemed like he had a crush on the girls, but there was nothing that in any way that discredited them or embarrassed them. It was just a letter."

But today shocked residents of Killeen cried that nothing had been done to divert the killer from his deadly path.

Outside the Sheraton Hotel here, three flags waved at half-mast, lit by flood lights. Gov. Ann W. Richards sent trauma teams to the town to help families cope.

Hundreds of onlookers -- fathers with children on their shoulders and mothers with babies in strollers -- hovered around the yellow police tape that kept them at bay from Luby's Cafeteria.

Some witnesses said the gunman talked to the cafeteria patrons as he killed them.

"As he approached people, he would say, 'Was it all worth it?' " said Lee Whitney, 41, a Centel manager in Killeen, who was standing with his wife Brenda, 33, at the back of the food line when the truck crashed through the window.

"A lot of people were taking their bosses to lunch," he said. "It was really crowded. He immediately started shooting. A lot of shots right away -- boom, boom, boom, boom."
He Talked to His Victims

Mr. Whitney said the gunman "walked right over my head and there was a lady whose head was eight inches away and he shot her -- for some reason, he didn't shoot us."

Betty May, a 67-year-old Killeen resident who was in the cafeteria when the shootings occurred, said she and her friends escaped after a man threw a chair through a window.

She said she cowered beneath a table after the gunman began shooting, and he was almost at her table when another patron broke the window behind them.

Ms. May said she cut her foot on the glass as she ran through the broken window, and needed 14 stitches on her left foot. "I didn't know I could run, but I did today," she said.

She and Evelyn Seales, 60, a friend from the East Side Baptist Church who were having lunch, said the cafeteria was unusually full because many people were there celebrating Bosses Day.
'You Saved Our Lives'

Ms. May said afterward she found the man who had broken the window. "I went up and thanked him," she said. "I said, 'You saved our lives today. We'd have been dead.' "

As the sun set, officers said the cafeteria in Luby's remained as the gunman had left it. Drapes were pulled for privacy across the front window where the pickup burst through only hours earlier. At the back, where some diners had escaped, one chair held drapes in place and three other chairs were strewn amid the plants behind the building. People kneeled to peer at what they could see in the gap of the drapes where the chair's legs stood.

Late tonight about 15 people gathered in an adjacent parking lot, holding candles and singing "Give Peace a Chance" and "Amazing Grace." One of them Tim Snyder, 29 years old, said he used to drink in a local park with the gunman, who was called "Big George."

"He's nice when he's sober," Mr. Snyder said, "but when he got drunk he acted berserk. He talked crazy."

Chief Giacomozzi said that the bodies were being taken to Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas because it is better able to perform the number of autopsies required.

He did not make public the ages or addresses of the dead, but said they included 8 men and 14 women, in addition to the gunman.

Eight victims' next of kin were notified, and the victims were identified as Olgica Taylor, Thomas Simmons, Nancy Stansbury, Juanita Williams, Zona Hunnicut Lynn, Clodine Humphrey, Ruth Pujol and Pat Carney.

If police officers had not responded as rapidly as they did, Chief Giacomozzi said, "we would have had a much longer list."

He also said Luby's had contributed $10,000 to help the victims and their families.

Killeen, a city of 45,000 people about 50 miles north of Austin, is on the edge of Fort Hood, a huge Army base that sent tens of thousands of soldiers to the Persian Gulf.

The police said Mr. Hennard was not connected to the military, and it was not clear how many of the victims were. Many of Killeen's residents have retired from the military or are military dependents.

Many military people, some dressed in camouflage uniforms, were among those watching the scene at Luby's. Chaplins, psychiatrists, social workers and medical workers from Fort Hood, the nation's largest military base, came to help.

Lieut. Gen. H. G. Taylor, the Fort Hood commander, said he had sent helicopters and ambulances to evacuate the wounded to local hospitals.
Class for Police Officers

Five state law-enforcement officials were leading a class for local police officers in a hotel near the restaurant, said Michael Cox, a spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety. Only a bank separated the buildings, and the officers ran to the restaurant as soon as they heard the shots, he said.

Mr. Cox was not among those at the class, but he inspected the restaurant after the shooting and called the scene gruesome. The floor was covered with glass, blood and spent bullets, he said.

Most of the bodies were slumped in the southeast corner of the cafeteria, he said, but others were in a hallway, in the food line, and one elderly woman was slumped over a table with food on it.

"You have to push yourself and remind yourself that it's not a movie scene," Mr. Cox said. "There's that terrible stillness of death."

Mr. Cox identified the gun that Mr. Hennard used as a Glock-17. The gun, which is made in Austria, normally carries a 17-round dmagazine.
Gunman Was Wounded First

Mr. Cox said that after the gunman drove his truck through the cafeteria window he crouched behind the pickup for cover. After he was wounded, he said, Mr. Hennard went into a hall that leads to the restrooms at Luby's and shot himself in the head.

"He was already wounded when he committed suicide," Mr. Cox said, adding that the gunman had been shot several times.

Residents from Killeen flocked to the Luby's to see what was happening. Barbara Smith said she drove there as fast as she could after her 21-year-old son, Shelton, a porter at the cafeteria, called her.

"He just said, 'Mom, they're shooting!' " Mrs. Smith said. We heard shots over the telephone. When she arrived, she said, "I kept telling them I need to find my son."

Her son was one of those who escaped. He had been working at the Luby's since it opened in February 1990.

Vernon Schrader, a vice president for Luby's Cafeterias Inc., said no employees were wounded or killed.

Mr. Schrader, the Luby's vice president for marketing, said there were probably 40 employees on duty at the time of the shooting. Luby's, based in Austin, is a publicly traded company that owns 151 cafeterias in Texas and its surrounding states and in Florida, Tennessee, Arizona and Missouri.

Mr. Schrader said sales last year totaled $320 million last year. Trading on the stock exchange was suspended this afternoon but he said he expected it would resume on Thursday.

He said the layout of the cafeterias is fairly standard. Most have a glass storefront and are about 11,000 square feet, with seating for 270 people.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E3D8113BF934A25753C1A967958260&sec=travel&pagewanted=print

Posted: 3/16/2006 11:05:18 PM EDT

[#1]

I heard about this when it happened. It was all over the news.

So, I'm going to call dupe.

Posted: 3/16/2006 11:08:45 PM EDT

[#2]

80 people yet no one with the balls to tackle the bastard...

guess i'd have to be there to understand i guess.

Posted: 3/16/2006 11:20:10 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
80 people yet no one with the balls to tackle the bastard...

guess i'd have to be there to understand i guess.

he shot them as they tried

Posted: 3/16/2006 11:25:01 PM EDT

[#4]

Representative Suzanna Hupp of the Texas Legislature is one of the survivors of the Luby's shooting.

Suzanna is recognized worldwide as one of the leading advocates for an individual's right to carry a concealed weapon. In 1991, after leaving her gun in her car in order to comply with the law, Suzanna watched helplessly as both her parents, along with 21 others were gunned down in a mass shooting at a local restaurant. As a survivor of this tragedy, her impassioned calls for the right of citizens to self-defense have thrust her into the national debate on the right to keep and bear arms. Since the Killeen massacre, she has testified numerous times across the country for the restoration of the Second Amendment. She has been quoted in US News and World Report, the Wall Street Journal, Time magazine, Texas Monthly, People, and has been featured on 48 Hours, Peter Jennings’ World News Tonight, Dan Rather’s CBS Evening News, and many others. Suzanna's efforts in this arena were recognized when she was awarded the Sybil Ludington Women's Freedom Award by the National Rifle Association. In 1998, Charleton Heston honored her as the first Texan to be awarded a lifetime membership to the NRA.

www.house.state.tx.us/members/dist54/bio/hupp.htm

Posted: 3/16/2006 11:59:11 PM EDT

[#5]

That is the reason we eventually got concealed carry in the state.

Posted: 3/17/2006 4:21:50 AM EDT

[#6]

And the PRIMARY reason Ann "I'm just an old cunt" Richards is no longer governer.

Your welcome.

Posted: 3/17/2006 5:35:07 AM EDT

[#7]

.9 mm? Never heard of that caliber, about the size of a bee stinger. Must have been out of that new glock .17

Posted: 3/17/2006 5:39:19 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Representative Suzanna Hupp of the Texas Legislature is one of the survivors of the Luby's shooting.

Suzanna is recognized worldwide as one of the leading advocates for an individual's right to carry a concealed weapon. In 1991, after leaving her gun in her car in order to comply with the law, Suzanna watched helplessly as both her parents, along with 21 others were gunned down in a mass shooting at a local restaurant. As a survivor of this tragedy, her impassioned calls for the right of citizens to self-defense have thrust her into the national debate on the right to keep and bear arms. Since the Killeen massacre, she has testified numerous times across the country for the restoration of the Second Amendment. She has been quoted in US News and World Report, the Wall Street Journal, Time magazine, Texas Monthly, People, and has been featured on 48 Hours, Peter Jennings’ World News Tonight, Dan Rather’s CBS Evening News, and many others. Suzanna's efforts in this arena were recognized when she was awarded the Sybil Ludington Women's Freedom Award by the National Rifle Association. In 1998, Charleton Heston honored her as the first Texan to be awarded a lifetime membership to the NRA.

www.house.state.tx.us/members/dist54/bio/hupp.htm

She did a great interview for Pen and Teller's Bullshit.

Posted: 3/17/2006 5:42:15 AM EDT

[#9]

and this is what happens when somone is armed responds:

A gunman opened fire during a thwarted robbery at a McDonald's restaurant Monday, killing a 9-year-old girl before an off-duty police officer mortally wounded him, authorities said.

Police Lt. Jim Lindley said during a news conference that the gunman entered an employees' entrance and handed a note to the manager, who then told employees they were being robbed.

An off-duty Barstow officer eating in the restaurant tried to confront the gunman, who opened fire, Lindley said.

It was not clear why the gunman started shooting. But during the gun battle that ensued, the officer shot the gunman, who was reportedly airlifted in critical condition to a hospital, where he later died.

Lindley said the 25-year-old gunman, who died about 6 p.m., had a lengthy criminal record.

He did not release the identities of the gunman or the victim.

Calls to the Police Department Monday night were not returned. Officials said they were preparing a news release but had not completed it.

A security camera showed the shot that killed the girl came from the gunman, not the officer, Lindley said.

Randy Emon, San Bernardino County deputy coroner inspector, said late Monday he did not have the names.

Various news reports said another person was wounded, but that could not immediately be confirmed.

The McDonald's was in Barstow Station, a popular stopping point for travelers. In addition to the restaurant, it includes an ice cream and candy shop and gas station in a building that resembles an old time train station.

Barstow, 120 miles northeast of Los Angeles, is at the junction of Interstates 15 and 40 in the Mojave Desert.

It was not the first fatal shooting at a McDonald's restaurant in California. On June 8 of this year, a man apparently involved in a child custody drop-off allegedly shot the mother, with the children standing nearby, outside a crowded McDonald's restaurant in Rancho Cucamonga.

Last December, a 17-year-old was killed and two people were injured when a former employee went on a shooting rampage at a Vallejo McDonald's

Posted: 3/17/2006 5:45:00 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
That is the reason we eventually got concealed carry in the state.

It was a good step. Needs to go further. This is Texas Goddamnit. We need to push for Alaska style carry laws.

Posted: 3/17/2006 5:47:09 AM EDT

[#11]

She has done a great job testifying before Congress, too. She put those bastards in their places.

Posted: 3/17/2006 5:48:19 AM EDT

[#12]

Read this and see how few CCW holders are out there.

Posted: 3/17/2006 5:51:33 AM EDT

[#13]

It's interesting how an event like this is perceived in different states. In one state, it highlights the need for concealed carry laws. In another, it highlights the need for more gun control. Same problem, wildly different solutions. Like I said, it's interesting.

Posted: 3/17/2006 5:53:20 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
80 people yet no one with the balls to tackle the bastard...

guess i'd have to be there to understand i guess.

the trick to charging somone with a gun is not to die before you get to him.
several folks were trying to get to him and they all died.
when a thug has a knife and charges you 15's is too close. when you are the one with the knife and your running down a trained man with a gun 15' is a long.

Posted: 3/17/2006 5:57:29 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Quoted:
That is the reason we eventually got concealed carry in the state.

It was a good step. Needs to go further. This is Texas Goddamnit. We need to push for Alaska style carry laws.

i like them the way they are. don't ask. don't tell. you can (illegally) take it anywhere if you follow these rules. except for places with metal detectors. i don't need to display one on my hip to be a man or “back a punk off”. sure we can roll back some more laws but i have to say i think some gun restrictions are ok. open carry is one of them.

Posted: 3/17/2006 5:58:00 AM EDT

[#16]

I'm doing my part, I have my CCW and I talked my dad and uncle into getting one too.

I have been known to carry places where it is recommended that I not, but to be honest with you I would rather be judged 12 than carried by 6 (or 8 in my case

).

Posted: 3/17/2006 6:21:19 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That is the reason we eventually got concealed carry in the state.

It was a good step. Needs to go further. This is Texas Goddamnit. We need to push for Alaska style carry laws.

i like them the way they are. don't ask. don't tell. you can (illegally) take it anywhere if you follow these rules. except for places with metal detectors. i don't need to display one on my hip to be a man or “back a punk off”. sure we can roll back some more laws but i have to say i think some gun restrictions are ok. open carry is one of them.

Paying upwards of $300 just to exercise a Right is bullshit. Not to mention re-upping every few years and having to pay even more...

Posted: 3/17/2006 6:23:37 AM EDT

[#18]

These signs you speak of....

I've never seen one.

Posted: 3/17/2006 6:27:51 AM EDT

[#19]

Posted: 3/17/2006 6:35:40 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
80 people yet no one with the balls to tackle the bastard...

guess i'd have to be there to understand i guess.

Yeah, you go first, Rambo.

Posted: 3/17/2006 6:42:31 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
It's interesting how an event like this is perceived in different states. In one state, it highlights the need for concealed carry laws. In another, it highlights the need for more gun control. Same problem, wildly different solutions. Like I said, it's interesting.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Up here in CT, they'd make everybody turn in their handguns.

Well, only the law-abiding regular people, anyway.

Posted: 3/17/2006 6:48:47 AM EDT

[#22]

Thank God Texas had the brains, the common sense, and the cojones to make the right decision and not just apply a stupid, do-nothing ban on guns because of this.

Not many states can say they would have acted the same way. Unfortunately I think the Luby's massacre did contribute to the '94 AWB rhetoric but all in all, we have as decent an outcome as is possible under the circumstances.

Posted: 3/17/2006 6:57:56 AM EDT

[#23]

Thank God he didn't have an assault weapon, the deaths would have been triple what they were. As a matter of fact, this case seems like an excellent excuse for more restrictions on assault weapons... since he COULD have used an assault weapon.

It's obvious that the solution to any future masacres like this one is to post more "No Firearms Allowed" signs at the door of businesses. We must also urge the Congress to pass a law that requires business owners to place "No Pickup Trucks Allowed" signs at the door to their establishment.

Common sense dictates that the solution to mass shootings are strict restrictions on guns and ammunition. If the shooter had only been able to buy one box of ammunition, he might have missed enough that he would have only killed 15 or so people before he depleted his 50 rounds. If his clips had only held 5 rounds each, he would have been forced to buy more magazines in order to kill and wound 42 people.

Posted: 3/17/2006 7:06:11 AM EDT

[#24]

It is interesting indeed. I was a patrol Sgt. when this happened and one of our LTs commented that he felt bad because he also carried a glock. Being in charge of the firearms training section, I rationalized with him to realize the gun had nothing to do with it. I simply asked him what he and his glock would have done had he been dining in that restaraunt? He responded quite appropriately that he would have taken out the shooter. I responded see, same tool, different outcome. He understood. He however was trained, practiced, and prepared. The problem is, that most people are not. They see nothing wrong with this and have this idea that if no one is prepared then they are all in the same boat. When we have raised a generation of professional victims, it is hard to get them into the mindset of not being victimized.

Posted: 3/17/2006 7:08:48 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
It's interesting how an event like this is perceived in different states. In one state, it highlights the need for concealed carry laws. In another, it highlights the need for more gun control. Same problem, wildly different solutions. Like I said, it's interesting.

That was my very thought when the initial post said to "remind them of the massacre...etc." Idiots who would want such signs would blandly and with complete innocence tell you that's the reason they have the signs, to prevent gun violence in their store. No reasoning with the stupid. (That, by the way, is why I will not step into a situation: go right ahead and hold up the paper with the "law" on it and let it protect you - it's the way you want it. Come after my wife or myself, and you won't like the result.)

AS an aside, since it was Texas. In Katy Mills Mall, Katy, TX (outside of Houston), they have a "no firearms" sign. I was carrying at the time, and was not about to either leave the pistol in the car or leave my wife or myself unprotected in the case of a nut. I carried in the mall - concealed means concealed - and, on the way out, presented my middle finger for manicure inspection to the camera right over the sign. Yes, guys, it was I. If someone wanted to stick up a store, their problem, we'd go the other way. Mall ninjas would get a size 13 in the crotch if they wanted to bother me.