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Posted: 3/16/2006 7:23:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 7:26:40 PM EDT by Hokie]
The Senate voted today to approve expanding the debt limit to $9 trillion dollars. The final vote was 52-48. All Democrats and three Republicans voted against it, but it wasn't enough.

Take your partisan hats off for a moment and digest the following concept:

Try for a minute and put $9 trillion into perspective, it represents $30,000 for each man . . woman . . AND child in the United States. It represents $390,000 just to the 13 people in this e-mail loop. The administration we all voted for came into this presidency with a record surplus, and now, under this same administration, they've broken the deficit record three times. I know some circumstances are beyond our control and necessitate spending (IE terrorism), but come on....How does it feel to know that $30,000 of your future tax dollars will be going to pay back this debt? And that's not even counting the interest on it! A significant portion of this record debt is being held by other countries (China and India for example) who's recent economies have been booming. Guess where the oil is going and why it costs $2.50 to fill your bug out vehicle. The world is nuts and things are getting crazy. Where's the conservatives when you REALLY need em!!!

It's a fucking spending party!

My point, all kidding aside, is:

holy shit... that's a lot of debt.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:25:11 PM EDT
the debt level has been given approval to reach 9 trillion, not the deficit level.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:25:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:25:34 PM EDT
And yet the government can't buy me a lousy M4.

Bummer.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:26:39 PM EDT
I guess I could pay it off if they asked, but I wont make an effort to tell them I can.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:27:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 7:28:32 PM EDT by Hokie]

Originally Posted By Chokey:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=446482



oops, but my thread sounds more potent. Let's play on, hopefully. I think it's a subject that warrants a few threads.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:28:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hokie:
The Senate voted today to approve expanding the debt limit to $9 trillion dollars. The final vote was 52-48. All Democrats and three Republicans voted against it, but it wasn't enough.

Take your partisan hats off for a moment and digest the following concept:

Try for a minute and put $9 trillion into perspective, it represents $30,000 for each man . . woman . . AND child in the United States. It represents $390,000 just to the 13 people in this e-mail loop. The administration we all voted for came into this presidency with a record surplus, and now, under this same administration, they've broken the deficit record three times. I know some circumstances are beyond our control and necessitate spending (IE terrorism), but come on....How does it feel to know that $30,000 of your future tax dollars will be going to pay back this debt? And that's not even counting the interest on it! A significant portion of this record debt is being held by other countries (China and India for example) who's recent economies have been booming. Guess where the oil is going and why it costs $2.50 to fill your bug out vehicle.

It's a fucking spending party!

My point, all kidding aside, is:

holy shit... that's a lot of debt.



But that poor congress, they were just bitch-slapped by this super-popular and highly approved of President into passing these spending bills. They are but mere puppets of the great Emperor Bush!

Every damn one of them is to blame. Fiscal conservatives my hairy ass.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:32:59 PM EDT
Holy Shit!!! Time for more tax cuts!!!
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:48:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:
But that poor congress, they were just bitch-slapped by this super-popular and highly approved of President into passing these spending bills. They are but mere puppets of the great Emperor Bush!

Every damn one of them is to blame. Fiscal conservatives my hairy ass.



You're right....I should have explained my point better. I wasn't trying to put it all on an 'emperor' but rather tie in the fact that it's a republican-controlled house of representatives.

I think the world is a better place when there is a nice mix of two (or three) parties to keep things in balance.

IMHO, it's the only way to be 'conservative.' The same nonsense would happen if it were a democratic party-controlled congress.

Hopefully things will balance out in 2008. Unfortunately, and probably to the dismay of a lot of people on this board....a republican controlled government doesn't know self-discipline.

9 TRILLION DOLLARS...wtf
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:53:01 PM EDT
So how does that work.......who do we owe the debt to?

Ourselves? or on Paper, or???

Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:54:08 PM EDT
Hell, they should have rounded it up to a nice even 10 trillion. It would have been only an extra ONE THOUSAND BILLION DOLLARS.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:56:01 PM EDT
So, I wonder how much it would be if we were fighting a full scale insurgeny on our soil? or multiple 9-11's.

From what I can remember offhand.

1. bail out of the airlines following 9-11
2. tsumami relief
3. war in Afganastan
4. war in Iraq
5. Katrina relief.
6. re-equiping / preparing our armed forces after 8 years of budget cuts downsizing.

What else?

Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:57:33 PM EDT
Almost as much as my wife's credit card balance........
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:58:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MisterSuzuki:
So how does that work.......who do we owe the debt to?

Ourselves? or on Paper, or???




a lot of it is to ourselves, the citizens. a lot of it is to the japanese and chinese.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:59:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By soowah:
So, I wonder how much it would be if we were fighting a full scale insurgeny on our soil? or multiple 9-11's.

From what I can remember offhand.

1. bail out of the airlines following 9-11
2. tsumami relief
3. war in Afganastan
4. war in Iraq
5. Katrina relief.
6. re-equiping / preparing our armed forces after 8 years of budget cuts downsizing.

What else?




Tax cuts.....lets take less money in, while spending more......sounds logical to me....
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:03:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 8:06:38 PM EDT by lippo]

Originally Posted By MisterSuzuki:
So how does that work.......who do we owe the debt to?

Ourselves? or on Paper, or???





The Federal Reserve and probably the World Bank.

Here's how it works...


1) Congress approves the printing of money.
2) The government calls up the Federal Reserve (which is a privately held company that is made up of 300 individuals who own it's stock) and tells them to make money.
3) The Federal Reserve prints US currency and then gives it to the government.
4) Everyone of us, now owes these 300 individuals the amount of money that was printed up, plus interest on this fake money. This debt is secured by your house, your clothes, your ability to work, your food, anything you have and the ability of the US to secure solid assests, like gold, silver, land, etc. Seriously.
5) Congress then, never makes a payment on that debt and just pays the interest. And the interest keeps outgrowning the payments. Kind like what happens when you have a credit card, don't pay the debt, just pay the interest on it and keep spending with it.

That pretty much sums up how it works. It's a little bit more complicated than that with fractional banking, but that's a cliff notes version.

We now owe 300 individuals...9 TRILLION dollars. So watch out for your land, your house, your posessions and get ready to feel like a slave. Because that's all our money is really worth...the good faith of the American people that they will work their asses off to move this fake money around and keep these 300 individuals richer than your wildest dreams.

Oh yeah, and now that we are sitting on Iraq's oil, that adds value to this fake money that we owe them. Our dollar was going to become worthless if we hadn't invaded Iraq and have a way to secure a huge amount of oil. China, India and the US are in a competition to see who will control the energy of this world and whom ever is sitting on this black gold, will come out ahead and their currency will be the standard.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:04:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 8:04:52 PM EDT by soowah]

Originally Posted By JarheadPatriot:

Originally Posted By soowah:
So, I wonder how much it would be if we were fighting a full scale insurgeny on our soil? or multiple 9-11's.

From what I can remember offhand.

1. bail out of the airlines following 9-11
2. tsumami relief
3. war in Afganastan
4. war in Iraq
5. Katrina relief.
6. re-equiping / preparing our armed forces after 8 years of budget cuts downsizing.

What else?




Tax cuts.....lets take less money in, while spending more......sounds logical to me....



Yeah, and I'm sure there is still a lot of pork barrel spending going on too.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:05:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JarheadPatriot:
Tax cuts.....lets take less money in, while spending more......sounds logical to me....



Even the NYT thinks you suck at economics.



For the first time since President Bush took office, an unexpected leap in tax revenue is about to shrink the federal budget deficit this year, by nearly $100 billion.
...
The big surprise has been in tax revenue, which is running nearly 15 percent higher than in 2004. Corporate tax revenue has soared about 40 percent, after languishing for four years, and individual tax revenue is up as well.



Cutting taxes stimulates economic growth.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:05:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hokie:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:
But that poor congress, they were just bitch-slapped by this super-popular and highly approved of President into passing these spending bills. They are but mere puppets of the great Emperor Bush!

Every damn one of them is to blame. Fiscal conservatives my hairy ass.



You're right....I should have explained my point better. I wasn't trying to put it all on an 'emperor' but rather tie in the fact that it's a republican-controlled house of representatives.

I think the world is a better place when there is a nice mix of two (or three) parties to keep things in balance.

IMHO, it's the only way to be 'conservative.' The same nonsense would happen if it were a democratic party-controlled congress.

Hopefully things will balance out in 2008. Unfortunately, and probably to the dismay of a lot of people on this board....a republican controlled government doesn't know self-discipline.

9 TRILLION DOLLARS...wtf



I agree with you to an extent. I was pointing out the typical way the morons in the press and the sheep just blaim "the administration". He's part of it but congress, and yes that includes your congressman and senator got us here.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:09:10 PM EDT
I'll gladly pay my $30,000 share right now if the gov't agrees not to charge me income tax and removes me out of all the socialist programs (and the taxes paid into it) for the rest of my life.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:09:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By JarheadPatriot:
Tax cuts.....lets take less money in, while spending more......sounds logical to me....



Even the NYT thinks you suck at economics.



For the first time since President Bush took office, an unexpected leap in tax revenue is about to shrink the federal budget deficit this year, by nearly $100 billion.
...
The big surprise has been in tax revenue, which is running nearly 15 percent higher than in 2004. Corporate tax revenue has soared about 40 percent, after languishing for four years, and individual tax revenue is up as well.



Cutting taxes stimulates economic growth.




Yes, to a point. However our government has NO finanical responsibility and will spend the US into ruin. You'd think they would have hired a financial advisor and a smart accountant by now.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:18:48 PM EDT
Just be happy we have a "Small Government" & "Conservative" administration in the white house.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:21:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lippo:

Originally Posted By MisterSuzuki:
So how does that work.......who do we owe the debt to?

Ourselves? or on Paper, or???





The Federal Reserve and probably the World Bank.

Here's how it works...


1) Congress approves the printing of money.
2) The government calls up the Federal Reserve that is made up of 300 individuals and tells them to make money.
3) The Federal Reserve prints US currency and then gives it to the government.
4) Everyone of us, now owes these 300 individuals the amount of money that was printed up, plus interest on this fake money.
5) Congress then, never makes a payment on that debt and just pays the interest. And the interest keeps outgrowning the payments. Kind like what happens when you have a credit card, don't pay the debt, just pay the interest on it and keep spending with it.

That pretty much sums up how it works. It's a little bit more complicated than that with fractional banking, but that's a cliff notes version.

We now owe 300 individuals...9 TRILLION dollars. So watch out for your land, your house, your posessions and get ready to feel like a slave. Because that's all our money is really worth...the good faith of the American people that they will work their asses off to move this fake money around and keep these 300 individuals richer than your wildest dreams.

Oh yeah, and now that we are sitting on Iraq's oil, that adds value to this fake money that we owe them. Our dollar was going to become worthless if we hadn't invaded Iraq and have a way to secure a huge amount of oil. China, India and the US are in a competition to see who will control the energy of this world and whom ever is sitting on this black gold, will come out ahead and their currency will be the standard.




So where does the U.S. treasury fit in to all this? Why did we take the money out of a gov't agency and give it to a group of private bankers?


digest this.......



Thomas Jefferson once said: "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency..............the banks........will deprive the people of all property, until their children will wake up homeless, on the continent, their fathers conquered.........."
THEN:
The Makers of the Constitution foresaw the need of a national capital. The city of Washington, the District of Columbia, became the capital in 1800. There the work of the government is centered. Congress is given complete charge and control over it. Its residents have no vote. They, alone, of all the people in the United States, must obey laws, with the making of which, they have had nothing to do. They elect no representative to Congress; neither do they elect any city or district officer. The money, which you use in all your business affairs, is made according to laws passed by Congress. Congress controls the printing of paper money, as well as, the coining of gold and silver money and the smaller coins of nickel and copper.

United States money, in the form of bills, is usually accepted, as equal to gold, in any civilized country. That is because the government keeps enough gold in the United States treasury, and in the banks, to meet all demands on it, for redeeming the paper money.
Congress alone may have money coined. No state may do so.
It is interesting to read the printing on several different kinds of bills............. a "green-back " or United States note, a federal reserve note, a gold certificate, and a national bank note, perhaps, given by a bank in your own city.
One of these guarantees that the holder will be given the amount of the bill, in gold coin, upon demand; and in fact, gold can be obtained for any of them.
With the power of Congress, to have money made, goes its power to punish those who make false money. To make any coins or bills or stamps, in imitation of those, of the United States, is counterfeiting. Even if it cost a gang of counterfeiters twenty five cents to make a coin , to pass for a dime, this would be counterfeiting and severely punishable in the United States courts.
"THE CONSTITUTION OF OUR COUNTRY"
By Frank A. Rexford


NOW:
On December 23, 1913, the U.S. Congress passed the Federal Reserve Act, placing control of this nation's money into the hands of a private corporation. In 1920, the 66th Congress passed the Independent Treasury Act.
In 1921, the united States abolished the U.S. Treasury.
This allowed all United States money in the private Federal Reserve Banks to be kept separate from Federal Reserve Notes. To wit:
"That, if any moneys or bullion, constituting part of the trust funds or other special funds heretofore required by law to be kept in Treasury offices, shall be deposited with any Federal reserve bank, then such moneys or bullion shall by such bank be kept separate and distinct from the assets, funds, and securities of the Federal Reserve Bank and be held in the joint custody of the Federal Reserve Agent and the Federal Reserve Bank;"
From 1913, until 1933, under the authority of the U.S. Congress, a private corporation held control of this nation's GOLD.
The U.S. paid interest on the use of their own gold, with more and more of its gold, ultimately ending in bankruptcy.
Inevitably, the bankers foreclosed.
On March 9, 1933, the U.S. declared bankruptcy,
as expressed in President Franklin Delano Roosevelt's
Executive Orders 6073, 6102, 6111, and 6260.

President Roosevelt declared a National Emergency that made it unlawful for any citizen of the United States to own gold. Our bankrupt nation went into receivership and reorganized in favor of it's creditor and new owners, a private corporation of international bankers. (Since 1933, what is called the "United States Government" is a privately owned corporation of the Federal Reserve/IMF.)

Without a word of truth to the American people, all our good faith and credit was pledged as the surety for the debt by the same Congress who created the mechanism that allowed it to occur.

Those exercising the offices of the several States, in equal measure, knew such "De Facto Transitions" were unlawful and unauthorized, but sanctioned,implemented, and enforced the complete debauchment and the resulting "governmental, social, industrial economic change" in the "De Jure" States, and in United States of America.
Public Law 94-564Legislative History, pg. 5936, 594531 U.S.C.A. 31431 U.S.C.A. 5112C.R.S. 11-61-101C.R.S. 39-22-103.5
They were and are now under the delusion that they can do, both, directly and indirectly, what they were absolutely prohibited from doing.
Federalist Papers No. 44Craig vs. Missouri, 4 Peters 903

On June 5, 1933, Congress passed HJR-192. House Joint Resolution 192 was passed to suspend the gold standard and abrogate the gold clause in the national constitution. Since then no one in America has been able to lawfully pay a debt. This resolution declared:
.........Whereas the holding or dealing in gold affect the PUBLIC INTEREST, and are therefore subject to proper regulation and restriction: and whereas the existing emergency has disclosed that provisions of obligations which purport to give the obligee a RIGHT TO REQUIRE PAYMENT in gold or a particular kind of coin or currency....ARE INCONSISTENT WITH THE DECLARED POLICY OF CONGRESS IN THE PAYMENT OF DEBTS...........
...........PAYMENT in gold or a particular kind of coin or currency, or in an amount in money of the united States measured thereby,
IS DECLARED TO BE AGAINST PUBLIC POLICY:
.........................AND...........EVERY OBLIGATION, HERETOFORE OR HEREAFTER INCURRED, SHALL BE DISCHARGED upon payment, dollar for dollar, in any coin or currency which, at the time of payment, is legal tender for public and private debts....
All coins and currencies of the United States (including Federal Reserve Notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banking associations) heretofore, or hereafter, coined or issued, SHALL BE LEGAL TENDER for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues,....
House Joint Resolution 192, 73d Congress, Sess.I, Ch. 48, June 5, 1933 (Public Law No. 10 ).

Note: "payment of debt" is now against Congressional and "public policy" and henceforth, "Every obligation...Shall be discharged."
As a result of HJR-192, and from that day forward (June 5, 1933), no one in this nation has been able to lawfully pay a debt or lawfully own anything. The only thing one can do, is tender in transfer of debts, with the debt being perpetual. The suspension of the gold standard, and prohibition against paying debts, removed the substance for our common law to operate on, and created a void as far as the law is concerned. This substance was replaced with a "PUBLIC NATIONAL CREDIT SYSTEM" where debt is "LEGAL TENDER" money.
The Federal Reserve calls it "monetized debt."
HJR-192 was implemented immediately. The day after President Roosevelt signed the resolution, the treasury offered the public new government securities, minus the traditional "payable in gold" clause.
The Judiciary branch of government has the power to correct this fraud upon the people.
Yet, On May 23, 1933, Congressman, Louis T. McFadden, brought formal charges against the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve Bank system, the Comptroller of the Currency and the Secretary of the United States Treasury for criminal acts.
The petition for Articles of Impeachment was, thereafter, referred to the Judiciary Committee, and has yet to be acted upon.
In 1965 Congress passed the "Coinage Act of 1965" completely debasing the Constitutional Coin; (gold & silver, i.e. Dollar).
U.S. vs. Marigold, 50 U.S. 560, 13 L. Ed. 257.

At the signing of the Coinage Act on July 23, 1965, Lyndon B. Johnson stated, in his Press Release that:
"When I have signed this bill before me, we will have made the first fundamental change in our coinage in 173 years. The Coinage Act of 1965 supercedes the Act of 1792. And that Act had the title: An Act Establishing a Mint and Regulating the Coinage of the United States . . ."
"Now I will sign this bill to make the first change in our coinage system, since the 18th Century.
To those members of Congress, who are here on this historic occasion, I want to assure you that in making this change from the 18th Century we have no idea of returning to it."

In 1967, in a brazenly unconstitutional act, Congress repudiated its obligation to redeem silver certificates in silver coin or bullion.
In the book, "Pieces of Eight," Dr. Edwin Vieira writes:
On June 24, 1968 the United States, finally, abandoned the silver standard applicable since Queen Anne's proclamation of 1704, and embraced a system of fiat bills of credit (e.g. alleged currency) based on irredeemable, legal tender, Federal Reserve Notes and debased, legal tender, clad coinage, never to be declared as lawful money of the United States.
Through misguided trust, our duly elected sworn public officials took our lawful currency and changed it to unconstitutional bills of credit (irredeemable Federal Reserve Notes), which continues to circulate only because of the public's continuing, misplaced confidence in these notes. The word "legal tender" on today's notes are not a magic incantation; they impart NO intrinsic value to money, nor do they entitle the bearer to exchange these notes for lawful specie. They are a throwback to feudal days when the sovereign could, and did, issue a proclamation declaring what was to be used as "money" whenever he wanted to debase the circulating medium.


INSCRIPTIONS ON FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES 1913 .............TO............ 1934
"Redeemable in Gold on demand at the United States Treasury or in Lawful money, at any Federal Reserve Bank."
"Will pay to the bearer on demand one dollar."

1934 ..............TO.............. 1968
"This note is legal tender for all debts public and private and is redeemable in lawful money at the United states Treasury, or any Federal Reserve bank."
"Will pay to the bearer on demand one dollar."

1968 ...............TO............... 1995
"This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private"
THERE IS NO PROMISE TO PAY, NOR IS A NOTE A DOLLAR !!
US currency (notes, bills of credit) was always to be redeemable in United States specie currency; first issued 76 years after the ratification of the U.S. Constitution, which only mandates gold and silver coin as currency in substance, not form.
Early Federal Reserve Notes were redeemable, but over the years, the wording on these notes regarding the promise and obligation has been gradually changed untill 1968. Since that time our "monetized debt" money offers NO OBLIGATION AND THEY PROMISE NOTHING!!!!

Since 1913, there has been more than just a gradual and accelerating erosion of the alleged dollar's purchasing power in our society. For the privilege of using these notes of private corporate debt as our "money", we were absolved from the responsibility of paying our debts at law.
We were placed in the position of having the "benefit" of limited liability for payment of debt under the jurisdiction of Vice Admiralty/Maritime law (the law merchant/commercial jurisdiction, UCC) in all controversies.
For the privilege of using monetized debt, we also lost the rights secured to us by our Organic Constitutions, both National and State
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:24:24 PM EDT
America's Debtors: Um, America? I'm sorry to have to approach you like this but, you owe us 9 TRILLION DOLLARS.

America: SO WHAT, BITCH?!
*America puts five across the eyes of the debtors*
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:25:58 PM EDT
Now, if you can handle ALL those FACTS.....try these also.....


Under the law, merchant, you have no rights. We are now using as "lawful money", worthless notes of private corporate debt, backed by our own credit that we can't own, and for this "privilege" we are held to compelled performance under the statutes.......

To make it simple, as long as this nation's lawful currency is notes of private corporate debt, ( bills of credit...money backed by no substance) it will remain impossible to ever repay a debt, thereby keeping us and our posterity in debt into perpetuity.

Has Thomas Jefferson's prophecy come to pass?
Under the contrived bankruptcy we have lost the right to challenge the constitutionally of the statutes........
We have lost our law..........
We can own nothing..........
We have become corporate slaves on the land we once owned..........And
................our children are waking up homeless on the continent their forefathers conquered.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:29:51 PM EDT
"Fiat justitia ruat coelum........" When the skies begin to fall, Justice removes the blindfold from her eyes and tilts the scales.

....is the sky falling yet?
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:47:35 PM EDT
hmm... looks like a big shit sandwich to me
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:16:53 PM EDT
If you take 9 trillion and put it into 10 dollar bills that shit would go from the earth to the sun and back some.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:19:31 PM EDT
With war with Iran around the corner and gas prices subsequently going sky high...you ain't see nothing yet. Georgie is on a binge and he ain't listening to no one, no how.

"Double or nothing assholes!"
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:21:35 PM EDT
So since our dollars are not backed by gold, and soon to be no longer falsely given value by oil pricing, isn't this a good thing for the US? Kinda like running up the debt before a bankruptcy or owing monopoly money?
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:26:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HSimpson:
So since our dollars are not backed by gold, and soon to be no longer falsely given value by oil pricing, isn't this a good thing for the US? Kinda like running up the debt before a bankruptcy or owing monopoly money?



Never has your moniker been more appropriate. My retirement, savings and paycheck in monopoly money? That doesn't sound so good.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:32:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hokie:
. The administration we all voted for came into this presidency with a record surplus, and now, under this same administration, they've broken the deficit record three times.





Can someone please explain to me exactly what this means? I have heard this statement bandied about many times by Clinton supporters, but I don't know enough about it.

I know for sure that the National Debt did not magically turn into a surplus under Clinton's watch. I also know that is referring to what was a best caseprojected surplus.

What was the National Debt at the beginning of the Clinto presidency, and at the end?

Serious question.

Thanks for the thought provoking info provided here. One comforting thought is that since our money is not actually worth anything, we will not have to pay the Chicom's and Saudi's back with anything tangible like gold. Just print more funny-money
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:36:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AROptics:

Originally Posted By HSimpson:
So since our dollars are not backed by gold, and soon to be no longer falsely given value by oil pricing, isn't this a good thing for the US? Kinda like running up the debt before a bankruptcy or owing monopoly money?



Never has your moniker been more appropriate. My retirement, savings and paycheck in monopoly money? That doesn't sound so good.




It's matter of perspective. You are one of the debt holders, so devaluation / inflation is bad for you.

For those of us with HUGE fixed mortgages, inflation might not be a bad thing.

-Just speculating here-
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:51:18 PM EDT
How many of you here really think you own anything? You are lying to yourself! Only the homeless have nothing to loose! If the monopoly money crashes what will you pay your taxes with? Thats right, anything you do"own". The time is coming to pay up.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:55:23 PM EDT
Holy crap, I didn't want to get screwed so I just went and spent all my retirement money on Jeeps. I hear they hold their value well, right?
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 10:25:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Silesius:
America's Debtors: Um, America? I'm sorry to have to approach you like this but, you owe us 9 TRILLION DOLLARS.

America: SO WHAT, BITCH?!
*America puts five across the eyes of the debtors*



Yea...then they stop using our currency as the standard, and we are fucked.
I mean FUCKED.
As in, better take a wheelbarrow load of $100 to buy a can of coke from the 7-11.
Our money is worthless - not backed by gold or silver.
Stupid fiat.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 10:45:23 PM EDT

"The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence." --John Adams
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 10:51:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 10:53:24 PM EDT by cnatra]

Originally Posted By soowah:
So, I wonder how much it would be if we were fighting a full scale insurgeny on our soil? or multiple 9-11's.

From what I can remember offhand.

1. bail out of the airlines following 9-11
2. tsumami relief
3. war in Afganastan
4. war in Iraq
5. Katrina relief.
6. re-equiping / preparing our armed forces after 8 years of budget cuts downsizing.

What else?




try that new MEDICARE BOONDOOGLE-DEBACLE passed by Bush & the GOP,
that's almost a trillion right there (a luxury NOT needed during a time of war ! )



& the largest expansion of the Department of Education in it's history with the No Child Left Behind Act

oh don't forget last years $286 Billion Transportation Bill
that was overflowing with Congressional pork
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 10:58:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 11:06:01 PM EDT by cnatra]

Originally Posted By BillofRights:

Originally Posted By Hokie:
. The administration we all voted for came into this presidency with a record surplus, and now, under this same administration, they've broken the deficit record three times.




Can someone please explain to me exactly what this means? I have heard this statement bandied about many times by Clinton supporters, but I don't know enough about it.

I know for sure that the National Debt did not magically turn into a surplus under Clinton's watch. I also know that is referring to what was a best caseprojected surplus.

What was the National Debt at the beginning of the Clinto presidency, and at the end?

Serious question.

Thanks for the thought provoking info provided here. One comforting thought is that since our money is not actually worth anything, we will not have to pay the Chicom's and Saudi's back with anything tangible like gold. Just print more funny-money



fiscal conservatives (deficit hawks) like Gingrich, Kasich, Armey, Graham etc. seized control of Congress in 1994 & held Klinton's feet to the fire on balancing the budget, he ultimately had to come around to their view & it resulted in 3 years of budget surplus that could have gone to pay down some debt, or help stave off complete collapse of Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security or just been a cushion for crap like Katrina or a coslty & drawn out war ..........
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 11:00:13 PM EDT
Okay, We have a medium sized, fixed apr mortgage, not a lot of savings but a lot more than average guns, ammo, and food.

I'm gonna be rich!!!
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 11:05:44 PM EDT
Aw fuck. The 'gold standard' circus is making noise again?
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 11:22:59 PM EDT
A surplus in yearly budget does not mean that there is no ongoing debt, no matter how a Democrat might try to convince you otherwise. The US has had ongoing debt for many, many years.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 12:16:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AROptics:

Originally Posted By HSimpson:
So since our dollars are not backed by gold, and soon to be no longer falsely given value by oil pricing, isn't this a good thing for the US? Kinda like running up the debt before a bankruptcy or owing monopoly money?



Never has your moniker been more appropriate. My retirement, savings and paycheck in monopoly money? That doesn't sound so good.




LOL You just don't get it do you?? Unless you where alive to see man walk on the moon, YOUR MONEY HAS ALWAYS BEEN FANCY MONOPOLY MONEY!!!


Link Posted: 3/17/2006 4:06:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2006 4:09:33 AM EDT by lippo]

Originally Posted By BillofRights:

Originally Posted By Hokie:
. The administration we all voted for came into this presidency with a record surplus, and now, under this same administration, they've broken the deficit record three times.





Can someone please explain to me exactly what this means? I have heard this statement bandied about many times by Clinton supporters, but I don't know enough about it.

I know for sure that the National Debt did not magically turn into a surplus under Clinton's watch. I also know that is referring to what was a best caseprojected surplus.

What was the National Debt at the beginning of the Clinto presidency, and at the end?

Serious question.

Thanks for the thought provoking info provided here. One comforting thought is that since our money is not actually worth anything, we will not have to pay the Chicom's and Saudi's back with anything tangible like gold. Just print more funny-money




Clinton = DEFICIT surplus. NOT DEBT surplus. Clinton gutted just about everything that was important (Ie. the military) to get our DEFICIT into a surplus, which means, our "government" was taking in (raping the people with taxes) more money than it was spending.

The DEBT has NOTHING to do with the deficit in your question. You are lumping the wrong things together.

Our national debt will climb, climb and climb some more. Because they NEVER pay down the balance. They just keep spending, creating more debt and only pay on the interest. Granted it's with fake money, but you can spend that fake money to purchase goods, which make the Federal Reserve owners very rich. Because they can take all of that fake money and have you come do work for them and they pay you with fake money. Which you can take that fake money and purchase milk and bread. So what's the problem right? The problem is, when the "value" of our money is backed by just the "faith" of the United States, if that faith starts to decline in the rest of the world, your loaf of bread will cost $100,000.

We use to have our currency backed by a tangible asset...gold. Now it's backed by our military ability to seize another asset...oil. But at some point, that will be gone too. All the while the 7 owners of the world bank and the 300 owners of the federal reserve have screwed us to death. And you can thank our very own government for allowing this to happen. FDR would have seen a civil war ending with most of America dead if he hadn't sold the US people out, but on the other hand, he took the short road to hell by doing so. There were other options, but corruption and quick easy action looked a lot better.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 4:12:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HSimpson:
Okay, We have a medium sized, fixed apr mortgage, not a lot of savings but a lot more than average guns, ammo, and food.

I'm gonna be rich!!!




And when our economy collapses like the Soviet Union did...you won't be able to pay for that medium size mortgage and everything you have will be taken by the bankers and our government.

Yeah, you're going to be rich.

You don't get it. You don't go on a spending spree because you are going into bankrupcy. You try to STAY OUT of bankrupcy. And our government will do just what you want to do. Party hardy before the ball drops, instead of making sure the ball doesn't drop.

And if you read the Presidential Executive orders, you don't actually own anything anyway.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 4:36:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2006 4:39:15 AM EDT by SWIRE]
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 4:40:49 AM EDT
Ya know, if we wouldnt send so much freakin money every year to China (whos already took alot of American jobs), our debt and economy wouldnt be so bad.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 4:58:46 AM EDT
The thing to remember with the current national debt is that by Bush's own prediction using his own optomisitic numbers the national budget deficit will continue on for at least another 9 years. That means the national debt is going to have to increase for at least another 9 year before it can level off again much less someone even look at paying it down.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 5:19:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt_files/image001.gif



that picture scares me
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 5:21:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JarheadPatriot:
Tax cuts.....lets take less money in, while spending more......sounds logical to me....


Tax cuts actually increase government income, but you are right about the spending rate.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 5:30:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hokie:

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt_files/image001.gif



that picture scares me



Only because you are misinterpreting it.
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