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Posted: 8/14/2001 11:11:16 PM EDT
[url]www.registerguard.com/news/20010806/ed.letters.0806.html[/url] A dog's violent death On the afternoon of July 21, as I was washing my truck, my life was changed forever by Springfield police. It all began after I had subdued an armed man who had robbed a tavern on Main Street and had run into my back yard. I'd pulled my weapon on the guy, ordered him to drop his gun, which he did, and then grabbed him after he had tried to break free and run. A neighbor and a couple of people who had been chasing the suspect came to my aid. I holstered my weapon and covered it with my shirt. When the first police officer arrived, I saw my dog, Zeke, walking toward him. The officer immediately took an offensive tactical shooting stance and fired two quick shots. The second shot hit Zeke squarely. I yelled at the officer, who immediately pulled his weapon on me. I put my hands out so he could see I was not armed. He was very agitated and bounced the laser on his weapon all over my chest. He ordered me to hit the ground face-down, which I did. I was in mortal fear. Someone handcuffed me and took my weapon from its holster. My neighbor and I yelled that I lived here and that I had just captured the bad guy. I yelled for my dog to be taken to the vet. I saw my beloved and loyal friend Zeke pump the last of his blood from his exploded heart onto the gravel of my driveway. He was dead! By now it was pretty clear to the police that I lived in the house and that I had just done their job for them. But they wouldn't remove the handcuffs until I led them to the suspect's gun. One officer said that I was going to jail. My reply: "Let's go." After 15 or 20 minutes in the back of a patrol car, an officer removed the cuffs and I led him to the gun. Lots of time, paperwork, measurements and detectives followed. As I write, I am still in shock over Zeke's violent death. This police-military action was totally inappropriate for the situation. It devastates a family through the loss of a devoted member. But it's just a dog - or a child, a wife, a husband or a friend. STEPHEN RILEY Springfield
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 11:15:44 PM EDT
UNBELIVEABLE? NOT!
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 11:19:18 PM EDT
I say a nice fat lawsuit is in order...
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 12:58:01 AM EDT
I believe a lawsuit is in order also. It is bad enough that the police have to deal with vigilantes like this guy but then also being subjected to his attack dog. The cop should sue for "emotional distress" and the vigilante should be arrested and charged for concealed weapons violations, psychological assault upon an officer of the law and obstruction of justice.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 7:12:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2001 7:09:04 AM EDT by full-clip]
OK that's a joke, right???
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 7:30:23 AM EDT
The nice thing about Texas is deadly force is authorized to defend property and livestock against violent offenders. I'm not saying I'd have smoked this cop, but geeze. Pepper spray, officer! Ever heard of it? Come in [b]my backyard[/b] and shoot my dog, regardless of the circumstances, and you and I are going around and around. Of course, we haven't heard the police officer's side yet, but he'd better have bite marks. Semper Fidelis Jarhead out.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 7:42:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2001 7:38:47 AM EDT by Sukebe]
You are by law responsible for your dogs behavior whether on your property or not. If your dog becomes aggressive towards any individual that person has a right to defend himself. If you as a police officer confront someone who is armed and take no precautions to protect yourself and verify that the person is no threat then you are a fool. This thread is typical moronic Monday morning quarterbacking using only one biased side to judge the situation. Not judge really, more like getting across the message you want people to hear whether really the whole truth or not. Lessons learned from the gun grabbers put to good use once again by someone who is clearly full of shit.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 7:45:58 AM EDT
Be a little more specific, Sukebe. Who are you saying is full of shit?
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 7:47:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: Pepper spray, officer! Ever heard of it? Of course, we haven't heard the police officer's side yet, but he'd better have bite marks. Semper Fidelis Jarhead out.
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A) Pepper spray has no measurable effect on dogs.(no tear ducts although they do sneeze a little as they bite into you) B) Then you better have a gunshot wound if you have to shoot someone, right?
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 7:48:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: Be a little more specific, Sukebe. Who are you saying is full of shit?
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Imbroglio.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 7:58:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sukebe:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: Pepper spray, officer! Ever heard of it? Of course, we haven't heard the police officer's side yet, but he'd better have bite marks. Semper Fidelis Jarhead out.
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A) Pepper spray has no measurable effect on dogs.(no tear ducts although they do sneeze a little as they bite into you) B) Then you better have a gunshot wound if you have to shoot someone, right?
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I went with the assumption that the dog was acting "aggressively" towards the officer, even though it didn't act aggressively toward the bad guy the homeowner put down in the yard, or towards the other folks who chased the bad guy there. If your A) is correct, then what about the baton? The Maglite? And as far as B) goes, you don't think shooting a dog who hasn't bit you is overreacting? If my dog's got bulletholes, guess what? That's good enough for me, by your own logic.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 8:01:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sukebe:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: Pepper spray, officer! Ever heard of it? Of course, we haven't heard the police officer's side yet, but he'd better have bite marks. Semper Fidelis Jarhead out.
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A) Pepper spray has no measurable effect on dogs.(no tear ducts although they do sneeze a little as they bite into you) B) Then you better have a gunshot wound if you have to shoot someone, right?
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Post office issues it's carriers a dog repellent spray also affective against humans, might be mace. So far the dog only walked towards the officer, and no growling indicated. There were others also standing about and the dog didn't attack them. Officer must have been having a bad hair day.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 8:01:49 AM EDT
Read the police reports, get the offciers name, pay him a visit. Simple.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 8:04:44 AM EDT
I heard a saying once that I'll paraphrase here: When the only tool you have, or feel comfortable using, is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 8:09:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2001 8:06:15 AM EDT by Hellraiser]
Moral of the story...do nothing to help the police as they are likely to: 1. Not appreciate or want your help 2. Shoot your dog 3. Treat you like shit 4. Possibly shoot you Come on my property and shoot my dog, I guarantee that I'll smoke your ass, badge or not.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 8:23:04 AM EDT
Get off the cop, Imbroglio. He just wanted to get home safe to his family at the end of his shift. 'sides, it was only a dog.... Sukebe's got the right attitude.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 8:38:11 AM EDT
Dude, Imbroglio made a joke.He was joking around.In other words,he was not serious.Am I the only one who noticed? Well,I thought it was funny.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 8:38:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2001 8:35:11 AM EDT by Sukebe]
I'm not saying it was right or wrong. I'm not going to pass judgement based solely on the account of the "victim". My point is, the purpose of the thread is not to inform but to "educate". In other words, Imbroglio wants you to see cops the way HE wants you to see them. He and others do this by pointing out controversial behavior of police then imply that it is indefensible and smother that with a little "they are all like this" attitude. That's the same tactics used by the people who steal our individual liberties. Tell a lie, tell it big enough and often enough and people will belive it. Am I getting close, Imbroglio?
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 8:39:22 AM EDT
Unbelievable. Un-f*cking-believable. I hope that cop loses his badge and is forced to pay out the nose via civil judgements. [pissed]
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 8:46:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sukebe: In other words, Imbroglio wants you to see cops the way HE wants you to see them. He and others do this by pointing out controversial behavior of police then imply that it is indefensible and smother that with a little "they are all like this" attitude. That's the same tactics used by the people who steal our individual liberties. Tell a lie, tell it big enough and often enough and people will belive it. Am I getting close, Imbroglio?
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Yep. Good joke, though, Imbrogilio. [;)] CB
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 8:54:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2001 8:52:22 AM EDT by Sukebe]
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: If your A) is correct, then what about the baton? The Maglite? And as far as B) goes, you don't think shooting a dog who hasn't bit you is overreacting? If my dog's got bulletholes, guess what? That's good enough for me, by your own logic.
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The use of deadly force by Police officers is generally authorized in the following situations 1) To apprehend or prevent the escape of a person who has inflicted or attempted to inflict death or serious physical harm that resulted in substantial pain or disfigurement, the duration of which caused substantial suffering and the delay of apprehension is likely to result in the perpetrator inflicting more serious injuries or deaths. 2) protect yourself or others from imminent death death or serious physical harm. Those rules apply to humans only. Have you ever seen the kind of injury some dogs are capable of? A man can easily be permanently disabled by a dog attack and you honestly expect me to belive that you are going to allow yourself to be bitten before you defend yourself? Also go ahead and try to beat back a determined aggressive animal with a stick and tell us how many stitches you get and how long you are hospitalized. My personal safety is worth much more to me than anyones dog. Go ahead and shoot a cop for shooting your dog when you failed to control it and enjoy your time in prison and life as a convicted felon.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 9:18:46 AM EDT
Sukebe, You aren't in a law enforcement line of work, are you?
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 9:23:22 AM EDT
Is it that obvious?[;)]
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 9:28:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2001 9:25:52 AM EDT by Jarhead_22]
I love how folks blindly defend anything a police officer does in the name of "getting home safely to their family at the end of the shift." I at least granted that I didn't have all the facts in my first post. Thank God this guy didn't have a pet python or Siamese cat in his backyard too. It would have been a massacre, huh? I mean, a python might leave a bruise if it gets ahold of you, and those Siamese could scratch you, and those scratches could get infected. I mean, the cop could have lost his leg! I'm not saying you have to jump on the bandwagon, but grant me that he might have overreacted before you build the Blue Wall of Heroes for this guy. I'd be interested to hear what the neighbors have to say about this dog, as well as what the patrons of the robbed bar who chased the bad guy to this guy's backyard had to say about just how aggressive this dog appeared before your paragon of public safety doubletapped the family pet. Semper Fidelis Jarhead out.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 9:32:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sukebe: Is it that obvious?[;)]
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Oh yea. It's obvious. Disconcertingly so... Gotcha Jarhead!! My post was loaded with more sarcasm than Imbroglio's. [:D]
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 9:35:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2001 9:32:15 AM EDT by a3kid]
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: I believe a lawsuit is in order also. It is bad enough that the police have to deal with vigilantes like this guy but then also being subjected to his attack dog. The cop should sue for "emotional distress" and the vigilante should be arrested and charged for concealed weapons violations, psychological assault upon an officer of the law and obstruction of justice.
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Not to mention reimbursing the officer for the 2 rounds.....and the cost of cleaning supplies, you know, patches and what not.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 9:41:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2001 9:39:12 AM EDT by Big_Bear]
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 9:46:49 AM EDT
[moon]
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 9:49:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2001 9:47:06 AM EDT by Sukebe]
Thank you Big Bear I knew this hollow argument would come out too. You folks are so predictable I am laughing as I write this. Attacking a Police dog is along the same lines as attacking a Police officer in the lawful performance of his duties. Do so at your peril. No you won't be shot, deadly force is not authorized to protect any animal not even a Police K-9. Again you are using hyperbole to support a groundless argument. Besides we carry .45ACP's
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 9:55:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sukebe: You folks are so predictable I am laughing as I write this.
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Well Hooooooollllllllllllleeeee sheeeeeeitt! Anybody care to guess where that "us" vs. "them" attitude comes from???????
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 9:58:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sukebe: Again you are using hyperbole to support a groundless argument.
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So given that we don't have all the facts here, you are unwilling to grant that this officer might have overreacted by killing a man's pet in his own backyard? That's a groundless argument?
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:04:44 AM EDT
The dog was probably a poodle. Dont get me wrong, I support LEO, but this is a little ridiculous. I bet if it was a good lookin womenz coming toward him aggresively, he wouldnt have shot her...
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:10:52 AM EDT
Well, I'm not sure either way there is another article about this incident, sorry I can't link it, on Glocktalk. It goes into a little more detail including the dog being transported by an officer to a vet. The officer was responding to an armed robbery call. There were multiple calls generated in this little neighborhood about the robbery, and the bar patrons chasing the guy not to mention the guy holding the robber at gunpoint. According to the other article, when the officer arrived the homeowner still had his gun out and some people were trying to restrain the armed robber. Now if you were the cop that shows up first here is what you have to deal with. 1) Armed robbery suspect - by definition armed BG. 2) Armed man pointing a gun at some guys involved in a scuffle. 3) Some guys trying to restrain another guy. 4) Dog comes runing at you. If you put away your gun to spray the dog that means you are close to at least 2 armed people and you've got pepper spray. Would that be a good move tactically? If the dog attacks you, dog hate people in any type of uniform, you can't defend yourself from whatever the 2 armed guys might do to you not to mention the damage from the dog. Jarhead_22, are you willing to grant this is a complicated situation??
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:19:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted by OLY-M4gery: Jarhead_22, are you willing to grant this is a complicated situation??
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I already said we don't have all the facts here. Again, someone chimes in on the side of the officer without granting that he might have overreacted.
Originally posted by Jarhead_22: Of course, we haven't heard the police officer's side yet, but he'd better have bite marks.
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Originally Posted by Jarhead_22: I love how folks blindly defend anything a police officer does in the name of "getting home safely to their family at the end of the shift." I at least granted that I didn't have all the facts in my first post.
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Originally Posted by Jarhead_22: So given that we don't have all the facts here, you are unwilling to grant that this officer might have overreacted by killing a man's pet in his own backyard?
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I guess the answer is no. It doesn't matter what the neighbors know about this dog. It doesn't matter what the other people in this man's backyard saw before the officer shot the dog. As long as the officer goes home to his family at the end of the shift, it's all good. Roger that. Lesson learned. Jarhead out.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:22:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sukebe: You folks are so predictable I am laughing as I write this.
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Sukebe, Please explain to me, and the rest of the forum, who you meant when you said "You folks.." Was it: A.) The AR15.com family? or B.) Mere citizens without badges to allow them shoot people's dogs like this fine officer did, or shoot people they "thought" had a gun w/o getting in trouble? Inquiring people want to know.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:31:49 AM EDT
Jarhead_22, where in my post does it say the officer was right for shooting a dog?? I just asked that the incident be considered from a tactical view as it [red]might[/red] have appeared to the officer as he responded. I also pointed out some of the considerations the officer [red]might[/red] have had in this situation. I was merely asking you to consider the situation. A3kid, if you search this board you will find AR15.com members explaining the circumstances in which THEY have shot dogs. Shooting a dog is not nice but sometimes it is justified.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:37:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:42:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Jarhead_22, where in my post does it say the officer was right for shooting a dog?? I just asked that the incident be considered from a tactical view as it [red]might[/red] have appeared to the officer as he responded. I also pointed out some of the considerations the officer [red]might[/red] have had in this situation. I was merely asking you to consider the situation.
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You asked that I consider the incident from your point of view without granting that the possibility existed that my point was valid. Outstanding. As I said, lesson learned. In the Marine Corps, I was taught that everything that looked aggressive wasn't necessarily a legitimate target. I guess police [b][red]do[/red][/b] need more training from the military. Jarhead out.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:44:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: A3kid, if you search this board you will find AR15.com members explaining the circumstances in which THEY have shot dogs. Shooting a dog is not nice but sometimes it is justified.
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Let's get one thing straight right now pal. Personally, the dog is not what I'm interested in. I'm wondering if the fine peace officer (shooting 50% [:D] ) shares the same attitude towards "civilians" that Sukebe seems to have. Read up a couple of posts here, and see if you notice what I'm talking about. FWIW: I was faced with a 7 year old 1/2 wolf 1/2 german shepherd that weighed about 140lbs 12 years ago, while carrying a loaded S&W686 with an 8 3/8" barrel. This dog was going to eat me alive, no shit. You know what I did? I rapped the big SOB across the snout with the barrel of the revolver & split his f_cking nose wide open. Would I have been willing to shoot him? F_ck yes, IF I HAD TO. Get it?
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:44:53 AM EDT
If someone killed my dog, I'd be really, really sad.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:49:00 AM EDT
Well Jarhead, being USMC certified bad-asses (you & me both) we have confidence in our abilites where as most cops are ex school hall monitors that get scared to death by a little pooch and that fear makes them shoot. You and me would have just kicked the shit out of the dog if it actually attacked, not shoot it because it might attack. Semper Fi
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:49:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: The nice thing about Texas is deadly force is authorized to defend property and livestock against violent offenders. I'm not saying I'd have smoked this cop, but geeze. Pepper spray, officer! Ever heard of it? Come in [b]my backyard[/b] and shoot my dog, regardless of the circumstances, and you and I are going around and around. Of course, we haven't heard the police officer's side yet, but he'd better have bite marks. Semper Fidelis Jarhead out.
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REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTANCES... and you considered the situation???
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:52:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By a3kid:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: A3kid, if you search this board you will find AR15.com members explaining the circumstances in which THEY have shot dogs. Shooting a dog is not nice but sometimes it is justified.
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Let's get one thing straight right now pal. Personally, the dog is not what I'm interested in. I'm wondering if the fine peace officer (shooting 50% [:D] ) shares the same attitude towards "civilians" that Sukebe seems to have. Read up a couple of posts here, and see if you notice what I'm talking about. Get it?
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If you don't like Subeke that's fine, but discuss it with him don't try and take it out on me.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:52:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: If someone killed my dog, I'd be really, really sad.
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No, you'd be one highly pissed off motherf_cker. I can tell you from personal experience. Bandit, my registered Border Collie (of 12 years) was shot by neighbors who just moved in the house across the road from my folks. It's been ten years, and to this day I still get pissed when I think about it.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:53:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sukebe: The use of deadly force by Police officers is generally authorized in the following situations 1) To apprehend or prevent the escape of a person who has inflicted or attempted to inflict death or serious physical harm that resulted in substantial pain or disfigurement, the duration of which caused substantial suffering and the delay of apprehension is likely to result in the perpetrator inflicting more serious injuries or deaths. 2) protect yourself or others from imminent death death or serious physical harm. Those rules apply to humans only. Have you ever seen the kind of injury some dogs are capable of? A man can easily be permanently disabled by a dog attack and you honestly expect me to belive that you are going to allow yourself to be bitten before you defend yourself? Also go ahead and try to beat back a determined aggressive animal with a stick and tell us how many stitches you get and how long you are hospitalized. My personal safety is worth much more to me than anyones dog. Go ahead and shoot a cop for shooting your dog when you failed to control it and enjoy your time in prison and life as a convicted felon.
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this is not a flame, no sarcasm in this post. just want to clarify some things. if those rules apply only to humans, what are the rules for non-humans? are you saying that an officer can shoot (and kill) any non-human being just because? just because he was having a bad day? just because he doesn't like dogs? or cats? i'm pretty sure the answer is no, but that doesn't seem to be what you were saying. i'd just like to know .
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:55:36 AM EDT
Oh, I'd have my revenge. No one shoots my dog without feeling my wrath. Beware the fury of a patient man.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:55:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2001 11:00:38 AM EDT by Jarhead_22]
Originally Posted By Hellraiser: Well Jarhead, being USMC certified bad-asses (you & me both) we have confidence in our abilites where as most cops are ex school hall monitors that get scared to death by a little pooch and that fear makes them shoot. You and me would have just kicked the shit out of the dog if it actually attacked, not shoot it because it might attack. Semper Fi
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There you go, brother. BTDT, as far as dogs go. Our score so far: Jarhead: 2 Big Mean Dogs: 0 Dead Dogs: 0 I've got friends that are cops, but most of them went to hack-it school at Parris Island or San Diego first. My old NCO school classmate went to the San Diego County Sheriff's SWAT school in 1999. They spray OC and CS at them all the time during PT, and he said all the former Soldiers and Marines just chugged on through, while a majority of the non-military types choked, gagged and dropped outta the run. Training and experience will win out in the end. You will fight how you train. Jarhead out.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:56:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Originally Posted By a3kid:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: A3kid, if you search this board you will find AR15.com members explaining the circumstances in which THEY have shot dogs. Shooting a dog is not nice but sometimes it is justified.
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Let's get one thing straight right now pal. Personally, the dog is not what I'm interested in. I'm wondering if the fine peace officer (shooting 50% [:D] ) shares the same attitude towards "civilians" that Sukebe seems to have. Read up a couple of posts here, and see if you notice what I'm talking about. Get it?
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If you don't like Subeke that's fine, but discuss it with him don't try and take it out on me.
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1.) You deleted the part of my post that was directed at you when you replied w/ quote. 2.) If you can't handle having someone respond when you include their handle in your statements, perhaps you should refrain from doing so. [-!-!-]
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 10:59:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: Oh, I'd have my revenge. No one shoots my dog without feeling my wrath. Beware the fury of a patient man.
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We might just have something in common... -kid
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 11:00:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTANCES... and you considered the situation???
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"around and around, regardless of circumstances" which is what I said, and dead on the deck are two different orders of magnitude. Or maybe that's the problem here: [b]I[/b] know there's a continuum of legitimate force, and I work within it, but some figure that, if I'm gonna fight, I might as well shoot. Those people should not be carrying guns and badges, or they tarnish the majority of police officers out there who are paragons of their profession. Jarhead out.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 11:01:53 AM EDT
A3kid, I deleted that part of the post for brevity. I ain't your pal, sport. Then you go on about Sukebe, that has nothing to do with me, cowboy.
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