alrighty then, I agree with your post. And shooting a dog seems extreme to me. But this situation also involved an armed robber a group of people who had chased the BG and another guy with a gun. The officers primary concern had to be with the BG and assessing the crowd and the other guy that had a gun.

Now I'm getting all teary...sob..sob..sob...

Why'd you have to talk so MEAN to me?

[moon]

is that your brain hanging out??

OLY-M4gery:
 This thread will get locked in a heartbeat if
we allow ourselves to start an insult match. I'd
prefer to keep it open.  My email address is
in my profile, use it if you wish.

[:D]

-kid

Why do things like this happen?  They happen because "procedure" has taken the place of common sense and good judgement.  It is a double edged sword.  "Procedure" hampers the effectiveness of those who are really trying to do well and protects those who could not care less.  It is rampant in all areas of government, but I have just recently begun to see it in law enforcement.  Not that it hasn't been there a long time, I just began to realize it.  In our never ending quest to be fair to everyone, we have become fair to no one.  

Proper enforcement of the law requires good judgement.  I sadly see very little of this in society today and since police officers are drawn from the same population pool as the rest of us many of them lack good judgement as well.  Now policies and procedures govern every LEO's move.  These same procedures that prevent good people from doing their job will protect the incompetent and evil.

To make a long story short.  "It's not my fault I had to shoot the dog it says so right here.--I have the right to do anything to go home at night--even if it means an innocent does not."

NOMEX ON!!

No, my intention was never to flame anyone. The reason I put your name in my response was I was responding to the point you made. Then all of a sudden I'm "pal" and getting the finger. If you don't agree with my point fine, if you want to debate it fine, if you want to get all "Don Rickles" [;)] on me........ I didn't start calling names but I won't back down from it either.

1.)Not backing down either
2.)You have access to my email address
3.)I don't want this thread locked

fair enough?

Now I'm laughing so hard I'm crying, I mean my sides are aching! Their is a third option you don't want to consider because I disagree with you on this crap. What I meant by "you folks" is you cop haters. I'm a bad cop because I'm not willing to jump to conclusions based on half the story and you are all smarter than me because you jump to conclusions on what is meant by "you folks". Again you folks are so predictable.[-!-!-] to all cop haters, You can all kiss this [moon]

Then why start in the first place?? I was trying to debate and tried to answer a question you posed. I didn't like the response including being called pal. It seemed to me you were unhappy with some other nameless guy, but were directing that anger at me I didn't like that either. I tried to point that out to you without getting out of hand, it didn't work you kept "ratcheting it up".

I can hanlde people responding to me, even if they point out I'm wrong. I didn't have a response for your dog/wolf story and edited it out to save bandwidth.

It took me 3 posts of yours before I responded in a similar fashion to you. Why start to begin with?

Again, I'd like to ask you to name names. I take exception to being called a "cop hater," and I'd like to know if you're referring to me before I respond.

Jarhead out.

Jarhead_22, please don't he just showed exactly what he is all about.

Edited after...

Good one I like it

I think the message is pretty clear. If you're not a cop hater then it doesn't include you and you need not take offense. Otherwise it is meant to be offensive to those that it applies to and only they know who they are.

Outstanding quibbling and obfuscation.

Jarhead out.

A=WRONG!! Tear gas has little or no effect on dogs, due to no tear ducts.  Pepper spray, an inflammatory that attacks the mucous membranes, has a great effect on dogs and their sensitive nasal passages.  However, a trained working dog can fight through the pain, aqnd quite possibly take you out, still.  (seen film of a Rottweiler getting oc'ed.  Talk about Snot!)  And NEVER, EVER, EVER, OC a cat.  It just makes them Psycho.

[b]Now I'm laughing so hard I'm crying, I mean my sides are aching! Their is a third option you don't want to consider because I disagree with you on this crap. What I meant by "you folks" is you cop haters. I'm a bad cop because I'm not willing to jump to conclusions based on half the story and you are all smarter than me because you jump to conclusions on what is meant by "you folks". Again you folks are so predictable. to all cop haters, You can all kiss this[/b]

I don't think you really are a cop.  No real cop would have this kind of attitude.  Maybe I'm wrong, but aren't cops supposed to serve and protect?  I say we abolish the FOP, departments, and allow private citizens police themselves.  We'd be safer...

Sukebe, If you come over to my house, a dog will come running out to greet you.  Friendly and noble, he is a GShepherd that protects my kids and fetches my frisbees.  Is he a dead dog?

If anyone ever shoots my dog, they had better have a damn good reason, and I will decide rather quickly if that is the case.

Only you know if you are a cop hater. What you are doing is judging the actions based on half the story given to you a person with an agenda. Take heart, your not alone.

Sounds kind of passive-aggressive to me.

Jarhead out.

I hope this doesn't throw off your grading curve but out of the last 10 bad guys shot by officers of my department all 10 have been the right bad guy. I'd like to see the source for your figures. As for the rest try a reading comprehension course. If you read through my posts in this thread you'll find the stuff about dog shooting as you have described it just ain't there. All that crap about locking someone up, wheres that coming from?

Sukebe, way to go you've taken the debate away from the issue to I don't know what.

Big Bear, Yes I think police dogs are more valuable than pets, then again I think seeing eye dogs are more valuable than pets. Pets are valuable because they are living creatures that have been domestictated and are "friends" to a person or family.

Jarhead_22, stop, really my sides are hurting, he'll go away soon when school starts.

Yes Dr. Jarhead my posts have been very passive. Want to get confrontational? What's stopping you?

[B]"Thank you Big Bear I knew this hollow argument would come out too. You folks are so predictable I am laughing as I write this. Attacking a Police dog is along the same lines as attacking a Police officer in the lawful performance of his duties. Do so at your peril.
No you won't be shot, deadly force is not authorized to protect any animal not even a Police K-9. Again you are using hyperbole to support a groundless argument. Besides we carry .45ACP's"[/B]

You either just said that Police Dogs are worth as much as civilians, or else you said that Cops have no worth at all.

If a Cop shot my dog, does this justify my shooting him at my own peril?  And what peril is that?  The cop entered my property, discharged a firearm with the intent to destroy my property, and is threatening my person.  Bad guys in the area or not, that cop would get shot.

What if I am cleaning my pheasant gun, and through some clerical error a SWAT team kicks down the door to my house?  I will be shot, and that's just it.  No one cares, LE is always right.

Sorry M4gery I just can't help it.  
BTW - I am a "Good Cop" lover.  No, not LOVER, just the opposite of hater.
[%|]

If I've taken it to some place you don't want to go sorry about that. I really haven't taken it anywhere I'm just responding to other peoples posts like anyone else. It goes where we all take it. As far as the school thing goes I'm not sure but I think I may ge starting to annoy you. Actually I'm at work, my paperwork is caught up and I'm waiting to do the 1700 roll call for the 1700-0300 shift. I sometimes wish I could just go back to school though. Weren't you two bickering back and forth on the last page? Whats that saying? "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", is that it?

Torf, ?? no problems here.

Sukebe, I know the difference between debating/arguing a point and declaring someone my enemy. Just because I don't agree with something someone says doesn't make them my enemy. Just because I agree with what someone says doesn't make them my friend.

Do I want to get confrontational? Are you joking? I want to have a civil debate, but I'm not going to back down because you say you've proven your point, and that anyone who doesn't agree is a cop hater.

All I wanted you to do was answer the question. You're the one pointing fingers here, and I simply asked you to indentify your targets. Saying that we each need to look within ourselves to see if we meet your undefined insult is, you should pardon the term, a cop out. Call a spade a spade.

Jarhead out.

Whats the deal? English as a second langauge? Where did I say anything like that. Man, if your mad at me just say so! Don't say I said things that I didn't, that's a little dishonest.

OLY-M4gery and I had a difference, but we found common ground in the discussion. That's the result of rational, civil debate without resorting to name-calling and threats. Seeking common ground is a continuum of force thing, somewhere in front of dumping a double-tap into your adversary.

Jarhead out.

I guess you do feel insulted after all.  Well, I'd like to stay and play some more but it's almost time for roll call. By the way I'm not one to stand by and let people besmirch Cops based on hear say. Again I'm not about to judge the situation based on half the story which is what Imbroglio wants us to do. I'm also not going to get into "what if's" that are based on the pure emotion of the death of a pet. Call me a bad cop if you want. I'm proud of what I do for a living. I'm proud of standing up for cops against people who hate them for no reason other than they don't like authority.

Call me out of service to put the shift in service.

This is the other side of the story. Seems a responding officer did try to save the dog.
CASE NUMBER: 01-6908
DATE/ TIME: 072101/1551
LOCATION: Time Out Tavern, 5256 Main St., Springfield
NARRATIVE OF INCIDENT:
On 072101 at approximately 1551 hours Patrol Officers of the Springfield Police Department were dispatched to the Time Out Tavern after a male subject robbed the Tavern of an undisclosed amount of cash. While en route to the location Officers were further advised that the suspect had run from the location and was being chased by persons from the Tavern. Numerous persons in the immediate area reported a person running through yards and possibly pointing a gun at other persons. Officers were also advised of another possible suspect and also the possibility of a suspect vehicle that had been seen in the area.
One of the calls also advised of a fight in the front yard in the 5100 Block of B St.. Officers were arriving in the area, setting up perimeters for K-9 deployment and responding to specific locations where incidents were being reported. Officers responded to the area of the fight which turned out to be 5190 B St.. At that location Officer came upon several adult males holding a male on the ground and at least one person who was armed with a hand gun. The first responding Officer was approaching this residence when a dog came from the side of the residence and approached the Officer in an aggressive manner. The Officer attempted to fend the dog off at the same time as he was trying to take control of the situation. The dog continued to approach the Officer in the aggressive manner and was fatally shot by the Officer.

Other Officers were arriving at the scene and took a person who was suspected to be the Robber into custody and also temporarily took the person with the handgun into custody. It was then determined that several of the persons who were fighting with the suspect had actually chased him from the Tavern. The person who had the hand gun was actually the owner of the residence, who had discovered the suspect running through his back yard with a pistol and a bag of money. He had attempted to take the person into custody in his back yard and had ended up struggling with him from the back yard to the front driveway area.

The suspect, Hiram Nathan Hartness, 122780, was taken into custody for the Robbery at the Time Out Tavern. The pistol he had used in the Robbery was recovered in the back yard of 5190 B St.. All money taken from the Tavern was also recovered at the scene. Hiram Hartness matched the description of the suspect in a Robbery earlier in the day at Ashley's Deli.

An Officer who arrived at the scene saw that the dog who had been shot was severely injured and he immediately transported the dog to the Emergency Veterinary Clinic, but the gun shot wound was fatal.

Detectives from the Springfield Police Department responded to the scene and subsequently confirmed that Hartness was also the same person who had Robbed Ashley's Deli. At the time of this press release the investigation is still ongoing, but it is believed that he will be charged with at least two counts of Robbery I.

[b]FWIW, Oly-M4gery[/b]

"Attacking a Police dog is along the same lines as attacking a Police officer in the lawful performance of his duties. Do so at your peril."

You said this, not me.  If I attacked a police officer I would expect to be shot, no questions asked.  If they are along the same lines, I could expect similar retribution for attacking a police dog.  That's what it says.  No, English is not my second language.
I still think you watch too much COPS on TV.  Hang around a real police force for a few years and find out how real cops behave.

Bottom line, if a cop threatens me in my home, unexpectedly, without proper warrents, and without displaying proper identification, he had better well walk softly, stranger.  I might be wrong, but at least me and my family is alive.

According to Sukebe, I hate myself. I agree with most of the others here, but I'm currently in the application process with the local PD. Hmmmmm...why would I subject myself to that if I didn't hate myself? Since my standards are defined by others, I must also be a murderer for owning guns.

Big_Bear, ease up big guy.
I said that "Zeke" was valuable
1) Intrinsicaly as a living creature
2) As a domesticated animal.
3) As a "friend" to a person or a family.

Each one of those adds to the other sequentially. But a service dog has more
4) As a means to do work that humans can't do, can't do for themselves, or are poorly suited to do.
4)a) the value of the service do is also measured by the amount of work it does a police dog that goes to work 40 hrs a week is more valuable than a "coon dog" that hunts 3 hrs a day 20 days a year. Also many service dogs seeing eye, assistance dogs, police dogs are willing to DIE to help people. Those dogs are probably smart enough that they realize they are putting their lives on the line.

That means pets are valuable, more valuable than say cows, and surely more valuable than an otter for instance. But service dogs are more valuable than pets.  

By that logic then, are police officers more valuable than the rest of the world.  No slam intended but if you follow that logic to its end then a doctor would be more valuable than you and me both.  I don't think that is the case.  Every life has value, none greater than another until it is proven that the existence of one is detrimental to society.

Yes, I see your point but that was talking about animals not people. And their are differnces in animals. No animal is worth a human life. Part of what makes animals "valuable" is their worth to people. Under the law animals are considered property.

Of course suppose you are an EMT you get to the scene of a shooting there is a BG and a cop shot. Both are seriously injured, and need to get to a hospital now. You can only transport 1 which would it be?? The SHTF you have room for 1 more in the AGGIE-1 SHTF van, me and a Dr. are hitch hiking who do you let get in the van??

Part of the way we assign value is by monetary rewards. Society lets us know where we stand as individuals partially by how much money we make.

Society has other rewards for individuals, status, power, and influence. People are equal in the eyes of the law but a Dr. has far more status power and influence than a school librarian.

Yes, that is true, [b]for both sides[/b] ex:Lubbock SWAT.

Big_Bear, I didn't say or mean to imply that zeke was without value. But Zeke is an animal he is not a human. The officer had 1 armed robber, 1 unkown armed guy, and some other people wrestling with a BG in front of him. Then Zeke came at the officer.

What I'm saying is that since the officer had at least 1 bg and 1 unknown armed person in front of him he would have put himself at a major tactical disadvantage if he holstered his weapon and used OC on the dog. That would have left him without a response if the BG started shooting at him. What if the 2nd armed guy was the BG's back-up?

I never said he should have shot Zeke, I never said he shouldn't have. I just wanted the situtaion examined before we all jump to a conclusion. I have said it is not good to shoot dogs, but sometimes it is justified.

How far away was Zeke when he was shot? How fast was he closing in on the officer? What exactly is an agressive manner?? None of those questions are really answered in either story about the incident.

Where was the officer? If he wasn't by his vehicle why wasn't he? It is portable cover. Was he surprised by Zeke? How far away were other officers? Again not sure about any of this from the accounts.

The truth is somewhere in the middle as you probably know.  

Off topic, but why did you stop using your signature line?  Too lazy to type it or what?

HMMMMM..........

This thread is very interesting.  As a proud owner of a very loyal and smart GSD and a Springer, these stories really piss me off.
I agree that the "new age" tendency to rely on procedure over common sense plays a role in these instances.  Also, things like cuffing an unknown subject who is really the "good guy", etc.  The heart of the conflict here seems to be the "us vs them" thing.  In other words, cops are trained that when arriving on the scene of an incident, EVERYONE is the enemy.  I believe the first thing a cop trainee learns is to "assume command".  It seems to me that more seasoned officers have learned to "assess the situation quickly provided no lives are plainly at risk, then assume command in a polite and professional manner".  Newbie cops are NOT taught manners that's for sure.  

One thing about a dog that is not out of control, is that if you stop, they will stop and hold you in place.  This sounds like a difficult situation for the officer.  If there was a pistol in evidence to the officer as the dog confronted him, I am sorry to say that he did the right thing.  If he saw someone with a pistol in the altercation, the officer was putting human life ahead of the animals life by stopping the dog quickly in order to gain immediate control of the situation.

If the pistol was not in evidence, PERHAPS the officer could have stopped when confronted by the dog (the dog would have most likely held him there without attacking) and called for the dogs owner to call off the dog, or used pepper spray.  This is a judgment call that badge heavy and inexperienced officers won't make.  My dog will come or sit on my command regardless of the situation, and many dogs are trained to that minimum standard.  If that fails, then shoot the dog.  But things are happening so damn fast, and if you stop for the dog and someone is killed during your dealing with the dog, can you say LAWSUIT?

I don't feel that there has been enough information presented to make a judgement on the shooting of the dog, and there are no easy answers.  It is just not black and white, as much as we sometimes like to think it is.

IN reference to the worth of a pet vs. a K-9, well, anything is worth exactly what it's owner thinks it's worth...a pet is worth exactly what it's owner feels it's worth, and a K-9 is likewise worth what it's partner thinks it's worth.

(continued...)As far as cuffing and stuffing the good guy, perhaps there were not enough officers available to interview all the players so they needed to isolate everyone and interview them one at a time to sort it out.  Remember too he was found carrying a pistol concealed.

I think this is just like anything else in life...for all the hundreds of criminal apprehensions the police make, some will go FUBAR.  However, dogs (and people) being shot due to negligence (was not necessary, wrong house, etc.) should result in the officer / entire team being fired AND charged.  Just like in the military, where the fuck up of one reflects on all.  This would reintroduce the aspect of policing each other, knowing that if a guy on your team screws up, that you ALL will pay for it.

As for me, if a running armed criminal comes into my yard, I am making sure my doors are locked and waiting it out in my bedroom with my family and pets.....and anything coming through the door without being announced first meets a hail of lead.  I know damn well the cops around here are mostly rookies, they don't know who I am and will assume I am a bad guy.  I don't like being thrown on the ground, handcuffed, stepped on, belittled, etc.  And I don't want me or my dog shot.

OlyM4gry you're posts for the LEO side of this discussion have been rational and free of invective.  Great contributions.

Sukebe:  Get a grip.  You are awfully defensive.  All that was asked of you was to admit that IF the officer had opportunity to address the situation without shooting the dog and just did it out of hand, then he was in the wrong for it.  That's a no brainer.  Perhaps you will feel better after your shift is over?  

OlyM4gry please email me.

Police officers have no legal obligation to protect anyone.  They only have a moral obligation and the good ones know it.  As for the rest of them......