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Posted: 3/13/2006 10:57:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 10:59:12 AM EDT by DougR]
I didn't see this posted yet, if so too bad.

By John A. Sutter

For decades I have heard gun owners claim that the government would never be able to confiscate our firearms because the government would lose too many men. The implication being, of course, that gun owners would actively resist confiscation, even to the point of shooting back.

But I believe this thinking is outdated and doesn't align very well with reality. But before you tell me how big your honor guard in Hell will be when that day comes, let's think about how the government could really do it.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, the government bans all civilian possession of firearms at the end of this month. Congress passes a total ban and the President cuts his own re-election throat by signing it.

Gun owners get some grace period to turn them in, even beyond the deadline, without being charged with a crime. If we use Australia and Britain as examples there will still be a significant number of firearms that are not turned in. Some estimates put the Australian turn-in at less than 25% and the British faired only about 28%. But Australians and the British have long been used to obeying almost every gun control law. Not so the Americans. When laws are passed that we don't like, we bite. We scratch. We vote. So here we sit after the guns have been collected and the amnesties have run out. Now what? Send out the personnel carriers, swat and shock troops to seize the guns from those militia "terrorists" who refused to turn them in? Don't be silly.

The government has lots of records about you. If you purchased a firearm since 1968, chances are that they have some record of it somewhere. Most likely, it will take quite some time for them to compile all the serial numbers of "surrendered" guns (surrendered essentially at gunpoint) and cross off the ones you turned in. It'll take more time for them to attempt to "clean up" their data. Say, about two years, maybe three. Add to that the hordes of people keypunching in hundreds of thousands of sales and registration records from hundreds of gun stores forced out of business. At some point the government decides they have something approaching a "good" database of unaccounted-for guns.

The next thing you'll get from the government is an official looking notice that they think you still have a firearm. Their information will probably include all the information from registration forms, right down to the serial number. That notice will tell you that you're in violation of the law, subject to prosecution and imprisonment. It will give you some period of time to surrender the gun. It will also give you a very limited number of days to return the form with an explanation of why you don't have the gun, any proof you have, and your signature that the gun was lawfully disposed of. For many people the idea that the government "knows" they didn't turn in that pistol or rifle and they have the detailed information about it will be enough to get them to surrender the gun. Some people will ignore the letter, others will scrawl a note that "I sold this in 1982 in a private sale". After some time, the government will figure out how many guns are still out there and what the "compliance rate" is with the gun ban. More importantly, they'll start sorting their database by the number of guns someone supposedly has "unaccounted".

If you think they'll come at these multiple-gun owners with a swat team, guess again. Their most likely tactic will be yet another letter (maybe two more) that generate what they'll call "insufficient responses". That means they can't track a gun after you owned it. This they'll use as fodder for a search warrant and/or perjury charges at a later date if they can. My guess is that the time between April and August will be a bad time for a lot of "former" gun owners.

Remember that the BATF is an arm of the Treasury department and they control the IRS. You'll probably get a notice in the mail that the IRS has some questions about your taxes or wants to audit you. When you make the appointment to visit the IRS they will pass that information to the BATF. While you are sweating over your deductions, the BATF and local police will execute a search warrant and search your home looking for guns. With you safely off site and distracted, essentially forced into "the royal presence" of the IRS they will snag your guns.

Expect them to use slow-scan and ground penetrating radar to search walls, yards, under the patio or deck, the basement, etc. You might even find your hot tub has been drained and moved. Yes, they'll search your car in the IRS parking lot too.

If you are one of the those people they suspect of having multiple guns and they don't find any guns at your home, expect them to find and search storage facilities, safety deposit boxes and other places you might use. Warn your relatives who live nearby that they can expect a visit too, even (or perhaps especially) if they never owned a gun. If they are thorough, I'd expect the government agents to check your neighbors to see which of them previously owned a gun and perhaps search their homes, arguing that your neighbor could have held your guns while agents searched your home. Remember that at this point the government authorities don't have much to fear from the general population. And by the time your complaints are run through the mill, rejected and turned into lawsuits, they'll have changed the rules.

But you only have one gun you say? Fine. They won't come looking for it. But they will make sure that possession of ammunition is also a serious crime. Don't leave any loose cartridges around and where will you hide that case of ammo you rushed out to buy? Expect any "gun parts" to be made illegal at some point in time too. Spare magazines, maybe even old cleaning kits.

Anything that says "gun" will be interpreted as "probable cause" to search your entire home.

Also expect that you can never use that gun without becoming a serious felon in the eyes of the government. Even if some thug has repeatedly stabbed you with a large knife and threatened to rape your six-year old daughter, they won't forgive you for having the gun. They may even give you extra penalties for using it to save your family. Especially if you are one of the first few hundred people caught this way, they will use you to "set an example". This will cause people to "bury" their guns away in hiding places, making them all but useless. If the government does come to confiscate it, you won't be able to get to it fast enough and they will probably find it.

You've moved several times since you bought a gun? Remember showing your ID when you bought a gun? Remember writing down your place of birth? Why do you think the government has so many computers? Linking you to your new driver's license in another state shouldn't be too hard. Besides, the Treasury folks know where you work. Think you're safe because you had unregistered guns? Think again. I would expect that the government's database will contain a lot of old data. Some of it might indicate that a gun was sold to a resident at your address. If they can tie you to ammo sales or range use with your credit card in the previous 2 years you might get a surprise visit. Or that seller might have remembered you bought that gun from him and filled out his gun notice to get "off the hook" for that gun.

The point of this article is that by thinking in limited terms of a "raid" to confiscate guns we lose sight of the alternative methods the government can use. Put yourself in the government's position and think of your own methods to avoid a conflict. Meanwhile, let's ensure that every gun owner votes for gun rights this year and the next. You can think of a thousand excuses not to vote, not to help a campaign, not to help another gun owner register to vote. I can think of one important reason to do all of those.

Liberty!

www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=10564
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:05:28 AM EDT
Pretty much how I thought it would go if we ever had a gun ban.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:09:13 AM EDT
Good reading. Depressing, but realistic. Who would've thought that two countries would fold like they did and give up their guns? As long as Klinton, Fienswine and Brady groups are out there, you can bet your rights will be challenged at every turn!
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:16:08 AM EDT
Bah. They only need to do it the way California does it with "assault weapons". Ban new manufacture, and transfers. You register it, or you can't have it. Don't register it? Fine, have fun finding places to shoot. Hiding it is almost as good as not having it in the first place. Did you register it? Great. You can't sell it, nor can you leave it to your kids in a will. If they ever wanted to confiscate it, they know right where to go.

They really only need to pass a few laws well before the ban to make this even more effective. First, is the imposition of severe criminal penalties (think felony) for not reporting a lost or stolen firearm. In this manner, saying "I lost it" or "it was stolen years ago" makes you a felon for not reporting it. Second is a prohibition on FTF transfers. This way, if you say "I sold it to a buddy" you're still a criminal.

Honestly, it would be easier if they were just going door to door shooting people. Sad, isn't it?

Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:22:52 AM EDT
A little bit dated post but pretty accurate. However it happens it will be slow enough so that it won't trigger a revolution and will be spun in such a way that anyone who opposses it will be cast as either an anti-government wacko or a criminal/terrorist. Even if agents started going from door to door collecting guns it would done in a professional manner so if you gave it to them "bullets first" the media would just play you up as someone who snapped like the unibomber. The cost of being caught with a gun would be so great that most the country would comply. Is having a gun buried in the back yard worth going to jail for 5 years? Most will say no and turn the guns in.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:24:55 AM EDT



which is exactly why we shouldn't plan on retaliatory action.

we need to force the issue NOW!


Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:25:12 AM EDT
Sooo...

They're going to do this 20 million times?

And no one will catch on?
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:25:31 AM EDT
We won't see this until our guns are viewed as equivalent to kiddie porn or cannabalism by the population at large.
As we learn from our wishy-washy Supreme Court's interpretations,the constitution doesn't help us at all. Only current public opinion counts. I don't see the government doing anything until it has a sizable majority of the public on it's side. By the time that happens, we'll probably be a very small subculture.
Teach as many folks to shoot as you can. Educate them on the value of self defense. Confront those who vocalize anti-gun sentiments with calm reasonable words and phrase your gun ownership as a right that they are trampling on. Don't forget to plead the cause of the right to use of lethal force. Without that foundational belief, gun ownership loses its basis. I'd say that the removal of support for lethal force and the death penalty did quite a lot to reduce the popularity of gun ownership overseas. Why own a gun if you don't believe in justifiable killing in the first place?

Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:30:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:31:01 AM EDT
Smartly written, and interesting.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:32:09 AM EDT
Another part of me thinks like this:

Consider illegal drugs. Nationwide the possession, use and manufacture is completely illegal, with severe penalties in many cases. Despite this and billions of dollars spent to fight it, we still have what you might call a "drug problem". It's possible that an outright ban on guns would parallel the drug war in many ways.

Then again...

...Lawyers, doctors, professionals, and pizza delivery drivers alike enjoy drugs. There aren't too many of them who keep machine guns tucked away by comparison. In other words, the country as a whole likes to get high, but they are no where near as enthusiastic about shooting like we are. Hmmmm....

Food for thought, anyway.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:33:47 AM EDT
So, there you have it for all you tin-foil hat wearers, this is the perfect plan to confiscate all the ILLEGALS AND SEND THEM BACK TO WHEREVER THEY CAME FROM.

200 million firearms from however many gun-owners (say 80 million) or

12-20 million illegals.

Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:33:53 AM EDT
One of the reasons I like to buy guns FTF with cash, no names or paperwork. My paperless collection is getting larger than the papered one.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:37:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 11:39:34 AM EDT by JIMBEAM]
So what happens when you don't go to the IRS audit and instead you wait for someone to execute the search warrant on your house. What happens when someone decides to ambush the folks coming to search your house as they leave their office?

Geophysical searches can be time consuming. If you hide them on property you don't own they may never find them.


Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:38:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 11:39:50 AM EDT by LVMIKE]

Originally Posted By KBaker:
Sooo...

They're going to do this 20 million times?

And no one will catch on?



It's not that no one will catch on, its that the whole thing will be structured as to make you or I seem like a whacko in the public view. This way, it reinforces the beliefs of those who think guns should be banned, whil ignoring the obvious problem of a government overstepping its boundries. The goal here is control of the majorities perception of the issue.

Face it, most people don't give a fuck about any political issue but civil rights in this country. Even that seems to be because of a form of conformity that is basically forced on people by society. I know a few people that hae racist predispositions but are terrified to admit it because of the social sigmata it brings. Apply this same amount of social pressure to believers in the second amendment and it becomes impossible to win any debate in the public eye. Physical confrontation serves to widen the gap between public and reality as reason and debate hardly follow acts of overall immorality.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:39:12 AM EDT
How can any of you be against "common sense" , "reasonable" , and - " for the chilrdren" - Gun "safety" laws like this ???????????????
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:40:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
One of the reasons I like to buy guns FTF with cash, no names or paperwork. My paperless collection is getting larger than the papered one.



Geez,now when they search are your computer correspondance.....
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:42:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 12:11:05 PM EDT by JIMBEAM]

Originally Posted By LVMIKE:

Originally Posted By KBaker:
Sooo...

They're going to do this 20 million times?

And no one will catch on?



It's not that no one will catch on, its that the whole thing will be structured as to make you or I seem like a whacko in the public view. This way, it reinforces the beliefs of those who think guns should be banned, whil ignoring the obvious problem of a government overstepping its boundries. The goal here is control of the majorities perception of the issue.

Face it, most people don't give a fuck about any political issue but civil rights in this country. Even that seems to be because of a form of conformity that is basically forced on people by society. I know a few people that hae racist predispositions but are terrified to admit it because of the social sigmata it brings. Apply this same amount of social pressure to believers in the second amendment and it becomes impossible to win any debate in the public eye. Physical confrontation serves to widen the gap between public and reality as reason and debate hardly follow acts of overall immorality.




Ask the unarmed African Americans a few decades ago if guns have anything to do with civil rights. I imagine it would be harder to disarm the middle class African Americans than it would the rednecks.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:43:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
One of the reasons I like to buy guns FTF with cash, no names or paperwork. My paperless collection is getting larger than the papered one.



You mean some people actually have paper associated with their guns other than targets? Wow...
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:50:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SubnetMask:
Another part of me thinks like this:

Consider illegal drugs. Nationwide the possession, use and manufacture is completely illegal, with severe penalties in many cases. Despite this and billions of dollars spent to fight it, we still have what you might call a "drug problem". It's possible that an outright ban on guns would parallel the drug war in many ways.
Then again...

...Lawyers, doctors, professionals, and pizza delivery drivers alike enjoy drugs. There aren't too many of them who keep machine guns tucked away by comparison. In other words, the country as a whole likes to get high, but they are no where near as enthusiastic about shooting like we are. Hmmmm....

Food for thought, anyway.



drugs though aren't registered and are pretty easy to use quietly

A gun you signed for and other than your basement with the also illegal suppressor, where will you fire it?
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:55:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave15:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
One of the reasons I like to buy guns FTF with cash, no names or paperwork. My paperless collection is getting larger than the papered one.



Geez,now when they search are your computer correspondance.....



Awww, damn it!
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:56:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DougR:


Expect them to use slow-scan and ground penetrating radar to search walls, yards, under the patio or deck, the basement, etc. You might even find your hot tub has been drained and moved. Yes, they'll search your car in the IRS parking lot too.

www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=10564



Pleeease. How much would that cost?

And the part about the distraction so they can search your house? The .gov with a warrant doesn't "need" a distraction.

If there is a total ban on firearms, they will just pick them and you up along the way....neighbor sees one, you shoot a stray dog, you are seen shooting somewhere, routine traffic stop and you have one in the car, you shoot an intruder, you get broken into... gun gets stolen....crook gets caught and tells where he got it, or cops see one or evidence of one at your house while investigating some other unrelated crime........

The door to door "Kristallnacht" gun grab is a tin foiler's tactical wet dream. Any gun grabs in America will be subtle and slow. And it will be fought with pen, paper, and lobbyist dollars, NOT posers with their MBR in .308, drop leg super duper 1911, wearing the latest tactical fashions (from Vietnam, ordered from SG no less) while munching Twinkies and MRE's in their AO.

<­BR>
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:56:55 AM EDT
This will never happen so it's all speculation
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:02:58 PM EDT
Lots of interesting things to reply to here, but the most obvious is the solution - as described in Unintended Consequences.

The feds may go to some effort to avoid any direct confrontation in the confiscation of guns, but our trump card is still that these people can only operate with the general consent of the public. They are mixed into the general population, they live in our neighberhoods, drink at our bars, eat at our restaraunts, shop at our supermarkets, send their kids to our schools, etc. etc. etc. We know who these people are, and we have a thousand opportunities to attack them when they are least prepared for it, just as they would be doing to us.

Their only counter is a major change in the way the Government does business. They'd need a secret police, with secret headquarters, secret or nonexistent courts. They'd have to crush all of the other civil rights and eliminate the rest of the constitution to have a chance at it - no more free speech, no more right against arbitrary search and seizure, no more right to trials.

Compare the numbers - how many Americans are willing to work in a secret police, executing secret orders and generally oppressing their fellow Americans, and how many gun owners and other civil rights supporters are there willing to use violence to stop them?
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:06:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:
If you are afraid of what they might do to you for not surrendering your guns, just imagine how afraid you will be of what they WILL do to you AFTER you surrender them.

Gun confiscation is a prelude to genocide, tyranny, and oppression.

If you don't want be be a helpless victim of it, then NEVER surrender your gun, and use it for the self-defense and preservation of your liberties, like a red-blooded American man is supposed to do.




Big +1 here. This is why gun rights are worth fighting for, whatever the cost.

If you give up your guns because you love your family, then what will you do when they come for your family?
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:06:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By alaman:
This will never happen so it's all speculation

I lived the first part of my life in NYC, there were so many illegal guns floating around and all available and NYC had the most draconian gun laws on the books, of course those illegal guns were sold at premium prices. For me this was an exit poll, but I would have never talked about it or admitted it while I did it when I lived there.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:09:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 12:17:24 PM EDT by billclo]

Originally Posted By twl:
If you are afraid of what they might do to you for not surrendering your guns, just imagine how afraid you will be of what they WILL do to you AFTER you surrender them.

Gun confiscation is a prelude to genocide, tyranny, and oppression.

If you don't want be be a helpless victim of it, then NEVER surrender your gun, and use it for the self-defense and preservation of your liberties, like a red-blooded American man is supposed to do.




Keep in mind what happened to gun owners in countries that the Communists took over. Gun owners were public enemy #1, even if they turned ALL their guns in. The reasoning was that they might have some stashed away somewhere, and probably would cause trouble. If they were lucky, they got a trip to the local "re-education camp" where most died. If they weren't so lucky they got a round to the back of the head.

So turning in your guns won't save you, unless you plan to go live in the woods afterwards. Hell, they might just keep you in custody after you turned them in, just because. So you might as well fight, and take some of them with you.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:11:57 PM EDT
Good, sad read. As I thought, it would likely happen with a whimper and not the roar some Arfcommers publicly testify they'd love to happen.

(FWIW I have no doubts that perhaps 1% of Arfcommers have the means and the will to shoot back in this scenario... the rest of us likely will just not comply and distribute them somehow...)
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:12:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:

Originally Posted By DougR:


Expect them to use slow-scan and ground penetrating radar to search walls, yards, under the patio or deck, the basement, etc. You might even find your hot tub has been drained and moved. Yes, they'll search your car in the IRS parking lot too.

www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=10564



Pleeease. How much would that cost?

And the part about the distraction so they can search your house? The .gov with a warrant doesn't "need" a distraction.

If there is a total ban on firearms, they will just pick them and you up along the way....neighbor sees one, you shoot a stray dog, you are seen shooting somewhere, routine traffic stop and you have one in the car, you shoot an intruder, you get broken into... gun gets stolen....crook gets caught and tells where he got it, or cops see one or evidence of one at your house while investigating some other unrelated crime........

The door to door "Kristallnacht" gun grab is a tin foiler's tactical wet dream. Any gun grabs in America will be subtle and slow. And it will be fought with pen, paper, and lobbyist dollars, NOT posers with their MBR in .308, drop leg super duper 1911, wearing the latest tactical fashions (from Vietnam, ordered from SG no less) while munching Twinkies and MRE's in their AO.

<­BR>



If they sub the work, about $2000-$3000/ day for each geophysical team.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:14:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:
If you are afraid of what they might do to you for not surrendering your guns, just imagine how afraid you will be of what they WILL do to you AFTER you surrender them.

Gun confiscation is a prelude to genocide, tyranny, and oppression.

If you don't want be be a helpless victim of it, then NEVER surrender your gun, and use it for the self-defense and preservation of your liberties, like a red-blooded American man is supposed to do.




Amen.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:24:36 PM EDT
What a bunch of horseshit.

Do you know how much time and money it's going to take to go around to every fucking FFL in the whole country and collect their 4473's, enter the pertinent information into a database for every 4473 (of which there are about 360 MILLION). Just that part alone is going to cost the government BILLIONS of dollars and take years to create the infrastructure, develop the software applications, hire data entry staff and train them.

Then, the government is going to have to sort through all of the information that they collected and determine which guns were turned in or weren't turned in (again, a manual data entry process) costing hundreds of millions if not billions to execute. Then once they have a list of guns that you have not turned in they have to find you and determine what happened to the guns you didn't surrender. Did you keep them? Did you hide them? Did you sell them privately? Should we search his house? Do we have probable cause? can we get a warrant? Who's going to search 10 million houses (conservative guesstimate of number of gun owners that would probably have some kind of descrepancy) across this country? Are we going to X-ray every back yard and the interior of every house? Do you have any fucking idea how much fucking money that shit is going to fucking cost? The fucking government can't even keep up with the real criminals out there and they aren't doing jack shit to enforce the vast majority of laws on the books now. And look at Canada, they spent billions on that fucking gun registry before they finally threw up their hands and surrendered.

No, they aren't going to build a registry from 4473's and then try and hunt everyone down for guns that they can't account for, and then go search your parents house and your cousin Tony's house. They'll give you surrender date, they'll give an amnesty or two and then they'll have to drop the subject. If someone rats you out to the cops after that then they might come search your house. If you shoot someone then they'll prosecute you. If you get caught with the gun then they'll throw the book at you. But it would be an impossible task for the government to hunt down all of the guns in this country. Completely impossible.

Oh, and the first time people get searched the rest of the country is going to find out about it. The government can't keep anything secret, not even NSA wiretaps. How in the hell would they keep this secret? It's all paranoid bullshit. They will continue on the path of incremental infringement of guns rights and social demonization of guns and eventually some generation down the road will be completely disarmed.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:28:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 12:31:57 PM EDT by LVMIKE]

Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:

Originally Posted By LVMIKE:

Originally Posted By KBaker:
Sooo...

They're going to do this 20 million times?

And no one will catch on?



It's not that no one will catch on, its that the whole thing will be structured as to make you or I seem like a whacko in the public view. This way, it reinforces the beliefs of those who think guns should be banned, whil ignoring the obvious problem of a government overstepping its boundries. The goal here is control of the majorities perception of the issue.

Face it, most people don't give a fuck about any political issue but civil rights in this country. Even that seems to be because of a form of conformity that is basically forced on people by society. I know a few people that hae racist predispositions but are terrified to admit it because of the social sigmata it brings. Apply this same amount of social pressure to believers in the second amendment and it becomes impossible to win any debate in the public eye. Physical confrontation serves to widen the gap between public and reality as reason and debate hardly follow acts of overall immorality.




Ask the unarmed African Americans a few decades ago if guns have anything to do with civil rights. I imagine it would be harder to disarm the middle class African Americans than it would the rednecks.



I sort of agree. The majority that see firearms as a tool for self protection and legitmately engage in their use will be our strongest allies. However, with the amount of inner city gang violence the black social leadership has taken it upon themselves to demonize the weapons in place of the youth commiting the crimes. To some degree they have suceeded, but to victims of said violence they have not. The vicitims, while now terrified of guns, still have a stronger reaction to the agressor then the weapon. The populace on the outside, looking in, sees a much different picture of guns equaling violence and are hearing testimony of "people in the know" that guns are the root cause.

So yes, some will be steadfast supporters and the biggest help we can get. Others will still be led around by public speakers without looking any futher then a cursory glance at the issue. I personally have no clue how big ethier of these catagories would be, however gun ownership has been synomimous with racist rednecks and the support of a polar opposite to this steriotype would be of enourmous benifit.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:30:06 PM EDT
Interesting scenario, but it just doesn't completely fly...heck, this one point alone is enough to show that.


The government has lots of records about you. If you purchased a firearm since 1968, chances are that they have some record of it somewhere. Most likely, it will take quite some time for them to compile all the serial numbers of "surrendered" guns (surrendered essentially at gunpoint) and cross off the ones you turned in. It'll take more time for them to attempt to "clean up" their data. Say, about two years, maybe three.


Two, maybe three? It took the Canadia government TEN years, and over TWO BILLION dollars to try and do it with just 2 million people....and they FAILED, miserably. Given the level of manpower, time, and cost involved in trying to do the same for over EIGHTY MILLION people, and upwards of THREE HUNDRED MILLION firearms it is impossible to rationally consider such an act as anything other than a cluster fuck of epic proportions. Fed.gov simply doesn't have the time, the manpower, or the funds to put together something like that, and even the most hardcore gungrabber in congress would choke when the actual numbers got crunched. And this is not even considering tracing the ones that never entered the system, or were "lost in the system" due to as one poster put them "FTF cash transfers".

Ditto with fed.treas.IRS. Does anyone honestly think the IRS has the capabilities to audit even HALF of all gun owners (40+ MILLION people) every year, in addition to their regular duties?


This kind of thing is the mirror twin of the 'vote from the rooftops' scenario....if you pardon the expression it's nothing more than a VPC masturbatory fantasy. Except here the assumption is based around government developing a level of competence, streamlining, efficiency, and budgetary wizardry that this world heretofore unheard of...
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:41:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mace:
Compare the numbers - how many Americans are willing to work in a secret police, executing secret orders and generally oppressing their fellow Americans, and how many gun owners and other civil rights supporters are there willing to use violence to stop them?



Well, if you can spin it so the secret police is a "good thing", then probably lots.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:44:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:44:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:
If you are afraid of what they might do to you for not surrendering your guns, just imagine how afraid you will be of what they WILL do to you AFTER you surrender them.

Gun confiscation is a prelude to genocide, tyranny, and oppression.

If you don't want be be a helpless victim of it, then NEVER surrender your gun, and use it for the self-defense and preservation of your liberties, like a red-blooded American man is supposed to do.




That is absolutely correct.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:45:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hard-case:
Interesting scenario, but it just doesn't completely fly...heck, this one point alone is enough to show that.


The government has lots of records about you. If you purchased a firearm since 1968, chances are that they have some record of it somewhere. Most likely, it will take quite some time for them to compile all the serial numbers of "surrendered" guns (surrendered essentially at gunpoint) and cross off the ones you turned in. It'll take more time for them to attempt to "clean up" their data. Say, about two years, maybe three.


Two, maybe three? It took the Canadia government TEN years, and over TWO BILLION dollars to try and do it with just 2 million people....and they FAILED, miserably. Given the level of manpower, time, and cost involved in trying to do the same for over EIGHTY MILLION people, and upwards of THREE HUNDRED MILLION firearms it is impossible to rationally consider such an act as anything other than a cluster fuck of epic proportions. Fed.gov simply doesn't have the time, the manpower, or the funds to put together something like that, and even the most hardcore gungrabber in congress would choke when the actual numbers got crunched. And this is not even considering tracing the ones that never entered the system, or were "lost in the system" due to as one poster put them "FTF cash transfers".

Ditto with fed.treas.IRS. Does anyone honestly think the IRS has the capabilities to audit even HALF of all gun owners (40+ MILLION people) every year, in addition to their regular duties?


This kind of thing is the mirror twin of the 'vote from the rooftops' scenario....if you pardon the expression it's nothing more than a VPC masturbatory fantasy. Except here the assumption is based around government developing a level of competence, streamlining, efficiency, and budgetary wizardry that this world heretofore unheard of...



They'll increase our taxes, then implement the confiscation
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:46:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
It will work, worked a treat in Britain!

ANdy



Correct me if I'm wrong, but your guns were all registered with the government before they decided to ban and confiscate them. They didn't have to create a registry, it already existed and they already knew where all the guns were.

Huge difference.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:50:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:51:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mace:
They'd need a secret police, with secret headquarters, secret or nonexistent courts. They'd have to crush all of the other civil rights and eliminate the rest of the constitution to have a chance at it - no more free speech, no more right against arbitrary search and seizure, no more right to trials.



The government pretty much already has all that stuff.

Secret Police: CIA/NSA/FBI/Federal, State, and Local LEOs
Secret Headquarters: Have them along with secret prisons.
Secret and Nonexistant Courts: FISA and others
Civil Rights/Constitution: Mainly gone, as each Amendment has been legislated to take rights from the people to make powers for the government. EX: Gun Laws, Eminant Domain, Search and Seizure, required to show your "papers" to officials, free speech= inability to lobby legislature/hate crimes through talk, no right to trials if deemed a "terrorist", etc.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:59:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 1:00:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mace:
Lots of interesting things to reply to here, but the most obvious is the solution - as described in Unintended Consequences.

The feds may go to some effort to avoid any direct confrontation in the confiscation of guns, but our trump card is still that these people can only operate with the general consent of the public. They are mixed into the general population, they live in our neighberhoods, drink at our bars, eat at our restaraunts, shop at our supermarkets, send their kids to our schools, etc. etc. etc. We know who these people are, and we have a thousand opportunities to attack them when they are least prepared for it, just as they would be doing to us.

Their only counter is a major change in the way the Government does business. They'd need a secret police, with secret headquarters, secret or nonexistent courts. They'd have to crush all of the other civil rights and eliminate the rest of the constitution to have a chance at it - no more free speech, no more right against arbitrary search and seizure, no more right to trials.

Compare the numbers - how many Americans are willing to work in a secret police, executing secret orders and generally oppressing their fellow Americans, and how many gun owners and other civil rights supporters are there willing to use violence to stop them?



you seem to have forgotten about the CA JBTs during Katrina
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 1:04:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 1:17:59 PM EDT by TheOtherDave]
doubletap
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 1:07:42 PM EDT

Remember that the BATF is an arm of the Treasury department and they control the IRS. You'll probably get a notice in the mail that the IRS has some questions about your taxes or wants to audit you. When you make the appointment to visit the IRS they will pass that information to the BATF. While you are sweating over your deductions, the BATF and local police will execute a search warrant and search your home looking for guns. With you safely off site and distracted, essentially forced into "the royal presence" of the IRS they will snag your guns.




Ummm....isn't the BATFE now part of the DOJ?
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 1:09:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shotar:
Not going to happen. Not even in hitlary's fantasy world. Why, because they need the duck hunters and they vote. Not withstanding, the clay sports are still very popular. Now, I could see restrictions on certain guns. Its not however going to effect .22s and 870s. Those would be more than adequate though.

As to the confiscation and search scenario, its pure rubbish. This is America and no one in this country is that patient or that meticulous. Its just not in our nature. I will believe it when our government stops handing out semi auto rifles through the CMP and closes down domestic gun sales. As it is, we just passed a law shielding manufacturers from liability, let the AWB die and have new CCW laws in alot of states. The antis have lost a lifetime of ground here and its going to take them a really long time to get it back. The best they can hope for even with a dem congress, is to get a law banning mags larger than 10 rounds. Beyond that, its not going to happen in my lifetime.



You know, now and then I get pretty depressed when these topics come up, and then I read this. If you think about it, it sucks to be an anti right about now, doesn't it?
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 1:13:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 1:17:10 PM EDT by TheOtherDave]

Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:

Originally Posted By DougR:


Expect them to use slow-scan and ground penetrating radar to search walls, yards, under the patio or deck, the basement, etc. You might even find your hot tub has been drained and moved. Yes, they'll search your car in the IRS parking lot too.

www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=10564



Pleeease. How much would that cost?




Back in the 80's, we were using sattelites to scan for Marijuana being grown in out in the country. The .gov doesn't care what it costs, because they don't have to pay for it.

Oh, and every cop is a 'sercret policeman' when he wears a black ski-mask...
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 1:20:06 PM EDT
And also a good reason to learn how to build AKs from flats

No serial### no trail


FREE



Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
One of the reasons I like to buy guns FTF with cash, no names or paperwork. My paperless collection is getting larger than the papered one.

Link Posted: 3/13/2006 1:22:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
One of the reasons I like to buy guns FTF with cash, no names or paperwork. My paperless collection is getting larger than the papered one.


[.gov] That's nice to know. [/.gov]
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 1:22:54 PM EDT
I agree, up to a certain point.
Eventually, they will get greedy.
When they get greedy, they will force their hand.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 1:25:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mace:
Lots of interesting things to reply to here, but the most obvious is the solution - as described in Unintended Consequences.

The feds may go to some effort to avoid any direct confrontation in the confiscation of guns, but our trump card is still that these people can only operate with the general consent of the public. They are mixed into the general population, they live in our neighberhoods, drink at our bars, eat at our restaraunts, shop at our supermarkets, send their kids to our schools, etc. etc. etc. We know who these people are, and we have a thousand opportunities to attack them when they are least prepared for it, just as they would be doing to us.

Their only counter is a major change in the way the Government does business. They'd need a secret police, with secret headquarters, secret or nonexistent courts. They'd have to crush all of the other civil rights and eliminate the rest of the constitution to have a chance at it - no more free speech, no more right against arbitrary search and seizure, no more right to trials.

Compare the numbers - how many Americans are willing to work in a secret police, executing secret orders and generally oppressing their fellow Americans, and how many gun owners and other civil rights supporters are there willing to use violence to stop them?



I normally don't do this but:

a big +1
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 3:55:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shotar:
Not going to happen. Not even in hitlary's fantasy world. Why, because they need the duck hunters and they vote. Not withstanding, the clay sports are still very popular. Now, I could see restrictions on certain guns. Its not however going to effect .22s and 870s. Those would be more than adequate though.

As to the confiscation and search scenario, its pure rubbish. This is America and no one in this country is that patient or that meticulous. Its just not in our nature. I will believe it when our government stops handing out semi auto rifles through the CMP and closes down domestic gun sales. As it is, we just passed a law shielding manufacturers from liability, let the AWB die and have new CCW laws in alot of states. The antis have lost a lifetime of ground here and its going to take them a really long time to get it back. The best they can hope for even with a dem congress, is to get a law banning mags larger than 10 rounds. Beyond that, its not going to happen in my lifetime.



Hey, hey, don't go spreading facts around! There are tinfoil-hatters out there trying very hard to keep their blaze-of-glory conspiracy theories alive.
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