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Posted: 3/12/2006 8:47:19 PM EDT
Well I am in the market for a new truck and considering this one. I would like advice from those who have owned them, and especially those that put 100K plus miles on them. (I see a lot of these things used with not many miles on them all the time)

I have a 20ft boat that I trailer, and also plan on getting a camper trailer soon that I would pull.

I believe that this truck will be much more than I need, but figure that the longer life will justify the extra $$$ I spend.

I want 4x4 just because.

I have experience with both Dodge and Ford 3/4 tons trucks and like the Ford much better due to the V8 and its performance characteristics being closer to a regular truck. Therefore being more enjoyable to drive.

Share your thoughts.......
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 8:52:40 PM EDT
What year is it? Because if it's a 6.0, you need to get to know your service manager real well.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 8:52:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DoorKicker:
....

I have a 20ft boat that I trailer....


I want 4x4 just because.

....





You need a 4x.. try "launching" your trailer/boat using a 2 wheeler.... you'll be slipping and sliding...

Basically, all of the diesel manufacturers are reliable, Cummins, Powerstroke, Duramax, Cats, General Dynamics/Detroit diesel, etc. You'd have to weigh in all the factors, etc, totally up to you man.

Good luck and Congrats in taking the initiative to own a diesel powered vehicle.

Link Posted: 3/12/2006 9:15:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
What year is it? Because if it's a 6.0, you need to get to know your service manager real well.



Please elaborate. This will be a new truck.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 9:23:30 PM EDT
www.thedieselgarage.com/ and oilburners.net/ are where ya should go to get all the answers to you're questions
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 9:32:04 PM EDT
Thanks
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 9:36:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 9:37:10 PM EDT by bvmjethead]
I have an 04' Crew Cab, short bed, 4 x 4, F-250, 6.0 Powerstroke.
39K miles and not a hiccup.

I tow heavy almost daily.
My 8 x 20 landscaping trailer is 6K-8K lbs. depending on load out for the day.
My Caterpillar MTL is 12K lbs. no matter what.

I drive both trucks like I stole em.

It's the best truck I've ever owned 2nd best is my '99 super cab, 8' bed, F-250, V10, 2WD truck.

You can't go wrong with a Ford Powerstroke for pulling. 100K mile drivetrain warranty.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 10:08:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 4:15:41 PM EDT by rufusrufgut]
Buy a Dodge you will be much happier.There is a reason you see alot of Powerstrokes for sale and it isn't because the original owners liked them..www.dieseltruckresource.com/

Link Posted: 3/12/2006 10:11:04 PM EDT
I would like to buy a diesel pickup because I drive a tractor-trailer, and well, the payroll department sometimes shorts my paycheck........
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 10:11:35 PM EDT
You shouldnt. You should get a real truck - Dodge Ram with a Cummins Turbo Diesel.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 10:13:51 PM EDT
Don't, mine sucked. Run far, far away. Mine was in the shop over the 6 years I owned it to the tune of a few thousand dollars, while still making payments on it.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 10:25:30 PM EDT
Buy a Dodge, i have has 3 new Cummins Dodge trucks, workded them hard and never had any major problems, even at 200K miles, the Fords are OK but the reliability and milage are far better than the Ford. My 04 HO Dodge 4x4 gets 25 mpg at 60 and 20 at 80mph. Resale is great as well, sold them all myself in 1 day useing the nickle adds. EEK
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 10:26:38 PM EDT
my uncle has a new dodge, grandfather and dad new chevys, mom and me have fords all diesels. really go drive them see what one you like the best and go for it. there all nice and will do what ever you want them to. it really makes me laugh when you see people only pushing one brand of truck. i drive a ford and i like the new chevys the best and the dodges the least. hey no matter what you get youll be very happy they all have more power then youll ever need.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 10:38:15 PM EDT
As stated earlier the 6.0 is not what the powerstroke used to be. I know from first hand experience. I drive them at work. I was driving one with less then 2,000 miles on it and it blew a piston. It took the warranty shop six weeks to fix it, due to the time it took to get a new piston. Ford was on their 3rd revision of the pistons and had a backlog. A Ford mechanic told me they are having a lot of problems with the pistons, if you ever accidentally put gas in it, it's toast. That was not so with the 7.2. Also I know of another case where one truck is on its 3rd engine, due to computer problems. If you have to drive a Ford, get a pre 6.0. Better yet, get a Cummins. Good luck with what ever you choose!
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 10:46:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 10:47:45 PM EDT by HillBillySniper]
ok the powerstrokes were 7.3s not 7.2s. if were gonna start throwing mud should we talk about dodge trannies? next year ford is coming out with a twin turbo charged 6.4 liter engine that should be out of this world. i will admit the first few years the 6.0s had alot of problems but so did the duramax it always takes a little time to work the bugs out, the newer 6.0s and duramaxes run like a top. granted the 7.3 is a awsome engine i love the fuck out of mine, but my next truck would be a chevy for sure. also no one can deny that the cummins is a outstanding engine nothing beats a inline 6 but everything around it is shit.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 11:10:24 PM EDT
I have a 06 F-250 crew cab long bed with 4WD. I also run the 6spd manual rather than the TorqueShift auto that Ford uses. That eliminates any computer controled shifting and programming for me to worryabout. I love the truck. I just turned over 10K this past week with no problems.

General consensus is that Dodge has a better engine with the Cummins, Chevy has the best auto tranny with the Allison, and Ford has the best truck as far as body, room and general reliabilty of all parts other than the drive train.

I love the Cummins engine, but dodge paint, trucks, and other stuff just sucks. Plus what they call a four door was laughable. It was way too small. There is the Mega cab now though.

Ford screwed up and let out the 6.0 too early, so the consumers became the beta testers. 05's and up have had few if any problems.

The problem with many of these medium duty diesels is that they are in a war over horse power and tourque. They need to drop the HP fight and work on realiability and longetivity and quit the fight. Of course, they could not advertize to be the "most" etc'. The second problem is the EPA. Emission req's are really chomping down on these trucks, so certain designs are implememted that are not best for the engine. Many think that the Cummins will be completely thrown to the wolves soon as a street engine due to its design and inability to comform to the tighter regs.

Go drive and see what you like and spend some time reading some message boards. Don't get too alarmed on the boards though, cause the only people who post are the ones with a problem. You don't hear about how happy Farmer Joe is about his truck when he likely has no computer or connection to the boards.

My .02 for Ford though is that they sell more than the other two combined in the super duty truck market.

In addtion to the other sites listed try www.dieselstop.com
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 2:13:50 AM EDT
Why not wait for the new 6.4PS from ford????
Mid summer release???
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 2:46:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:
You shouldnt. You should get a real truck - Dodge Ram with a Cummins Turbo Diesel.


Hard to argue against this, given the history of the 6.0L in the Ford.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 2:55:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 3:14:53 AM EDT by Wobblin-Goblin]

Originally Posted By Chida66:
General consensus is that Dodge has a better engine with the Cummins, Chevy has the best auto tranny with the Allison, and Ford has the best truck as far as body, room and general reliabilty of all parts other than the drive train.


That's been the conventional wisdom for atleast the last six or seven years.

I love the Cummins engine, but dodge paint, trucks, and other stuff just sucks. Plus what they call a four door was laughable. It was way too small. There is the Mega cab now though.

Ford screwed up and let out the 6.0 too early, so the consumers became the beta testers. 05's and up have had few if any problems.


Hard to argue with you here, except Ford paint isn't much better. Trust me on this.

The problem with many of these medium duty diesels is that they are in a war over horse power and tourque. They need to drop the HP fight and work on realiability and longetivity and quit the fight. Of course, they could not advertize to be the "most" etc'. The second problem is the EPA. Emission req's are really chomping down on these trucks, so certain designs are implememted that are not best for the engine. Many think that the Cummins will be completely thrown to the wolves soon as a street engine due to its design and inability to comform to the tighter regs.

Go drive and see what you like and spend some time reading some message boards. Don't get too alarmed on the boards though, cause the only people who post are the ones with a problem. You don't hear about how happy Farmer Joe is about his truck when he likely has no computer or connection to the boards.


Agreed all the way around.

My .02 for Ford though is that they sell more than the other two combined in the super duty truck market.

This was true in the past, but not anymore. 2005 changed all that.

In addtion to the other sites listed try www.dieselstop.com

I'm a member there, too.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 2:57:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Big-Big1:
Why not wait for the new 6.4PS from ford????
Mid summer release???


Never buy a first-year model. It won't be out until next winter, anyway.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 3:12:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 9:29:37 AM EDT by Merlin]
I just bought a F-350 SRW LB with the PSD, so I can say I put my money where my mouth is. Great truck, love it. I just turned a whopping 1600 miles on it on the way to work this morning; got it Feb. 1.

In my 4x4 club, there are 5 new trucks: 2 are F-350 DRW's, 1 SRW, (mine) and 2 Dodge Cummins 3500 SRW's. All were ordered with manual transmissions and manual 4x4 hubs and shifters.

You can't go wrong with either truck.

Here's another resource for you:

The Diesel Stop

Good luck.

Merlin
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 3:18:27 AM EDT
I always owned Fords and was going to buy a Powerstroke, but ended up with a Duramax just because it was a much better deal. I'm very pleased with it, so far.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 3:24:04 AM EDT
There is a great deal of fanaticism among truck owners, especially high end diesels. IMHO mechanically they all have their weak links and they are all roughly the same performance-wise. If you are buying a new truck dealer service is very much a question of the individual dealer rather than the brand.

I would buy the truck that has the features you want. I bought a Ford because I liked the interior the best and the exterior second best (the Ram does have the sexiest exterior).

I bought a used 2000 F250 X-cab diesel 4x4. It had 112K on it when I bought it (just getting broken in ). It had been towed a lot. The tranny is the weakest link on the Fords. I brought it to a local truck tranny specialist who dropped the pan and gave it a full service. He said it was in very good shape. Since I don't tow I now expect that tranny to last the life of the truck.

YMMV

aa
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 3:51:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
What year is it? Because if it's a 6.0, you need to get to know your service manager real well.



If it's a 05 or newer, the problems are no more than the other makers diesels.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 3:55:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:
You shouldnt. You should get a real truck - Dodge Ram with a Cummins Turbo Diesel.



It's ashame the rest of the vehicle is a turd

I've had both a Cummins and now a 05 Powerstroke. Both pulled the same trailer, and I can honestly say that between the two trucks I've had, the Ford pulled my race trailer night and day better than the Cummins. Lets not even start talking about the trannies in the Dodges

IMHO:

The Ford drives, accelerates, and just plain looks better. The only thing I can say good about the Dodge is that it got about 2mpg better than the Ford
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 4:10:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shootemup:

Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
What year is it? Because if it's a 6.0, you need to get to know your service manager real well.



If it's a 05 or newer, the problems are no more than the other makers diesels.




Yoou guys kill me that defend the ford powerstroke. It is a joke, i know Ford dealer mechanics that have told me never to buy one.

"Never buy a first-year model. It won't be out until next winter, anyway."

Nobody could buy a powerstrooke in this case cause they keep having to come up with new models cause they all suck.,
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 4:29:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DoorKicker:

Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
What year is it? Because if it's a 6.0, you need to get to know your service manager real well.



Please elaborate. This will be a new truck.





Door,

I used to own a 2004 F240 4x4 with the 6.0 PSD. That truck had enough power to pull a house stright up the side of a building. I'm serious.

Some things to consider. The 6.0PSD was first introduced in 2003, with dismal results. They had LOTS of problems. By the time I got mine in late 2004 they had pretty much gotten the bugs figured out and were issuing TSB's and recalls. My truck ran like a champ. The only reason I sold it was for debt reduction purposes.

The 2006's should be just fine. DO NOT GET A 2007 becasue that's the first year for the new twin-turbo 6.4L PSD. I'd stay away from that for about 2 years until they get the bugs out of it.

Get yourself a 2006 and you'll be happy.

Also, go to The Diesel Stop and learn more about these trucks.

Good luck.

CMOS
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 4:40:36 AM EDT
I think it's funny that the guy asks only people who've owned them to respond and for the most part people who've actually owned Ford's respond positively.

The guy's in this thread bashing the crap out of Ford's generally can't say they've owned one.

I'll say it again.

I OWN a 2004 F-250 CC, SB, 4x4 AUTO 6.0 PSD with near 40K on it.

I tow AT LEAST 6K lbs EVERY weekday.

I have not had a single problem. And I drive it like it's stolen.

I'm not "defending" anything I'm just speaking from experience something I think many people should try especially wen asked to.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 4:57:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 5:00:57 AM EDT by dugedug]
I'm allowed to reply because I just picked up a '03 F250 4X4 CrewCab sb w/ 50k on it albeit in 5.4L flavor. I was originally looking for a diesel 250 but they want another $5k for them and with diesel prices being higher the $/mile was almost exact same (plus the higher servicing cost of diesels).

Like the previous poster said, don't believe all the idiotic replies from the kiddie pool. Best thing to do is go drive one. You will see why there are by far more 250s around than any other truck(at least in the heartland). Most of the used 250s around here for sale have over 100k for mileage. It's hard to find something under than unless it was a program truck. I called the previous owner of mine and he fifth-wheeled a 30' camper with mine and never had a problem.



Drive all three (the same day if possible) and I guarantee you that you will find yourself driving off the lot of the Ford dealer with a new 250.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 5:13:02 AM EDT
Navistar/International's PowerStroke Diesel is a mess.
GM's DuraMax diesel isn't the cat's meow either.

I have read/seen many PSD/Duramax owners convert to Cummins and buy Dodge Rams instead.
The 5.9L I6 Cummins makes like 500+ ft-lb on a flat torque "curve". The Cummins is also reported to be the most gas efficient, quietest, and "powerful" engine out of the Big 3's diesel p/u offerings. However the Dodge Ram has the lowest payload capacity out of the Big 3's offerings.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 7:09:03 AM EDT
ive got a 2000 f 250 powerstroke chiped and lifted i love the truck
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 7:33:42 AM EDT
Since the Duramax is under represented here, I'll respond with, "My 03 GMC 3500 DRW xCab 4x4 has been flawless in the 60,000 miles I have had it since new." I towed a 15,000 trailer all over the northern tier of the country for 30 of those 60 thousand miles. From grades so steep in WV where I had to move forward in the seat to see over the hood, to that hill outside of Deadwood, SD, and Teton Pass coming out of Jackson, WY. OK, so I was down to 35mph climbing Teton Pass. I only had to slowdown once for heat issues with a 12K cargo trailer on SR87 in AZ during 112 degree heat.

I like all the new diesels. Some will say the only good 4x4 is a solid front axle, no IFS pansy BS for them. I say I drive 90% of the time on pavement and welcome the IFS's superior road manners.

YMMV,
Mike
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 7:42:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 7:46:23 AM EDT by krazy_karl]

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:
You shouldnt. You should get a real truck - Dodge Ram with a Cummins Turbo Diesel.



Totally agree with this added:

... buy the MANUAL tranny. FWIW I know a lot of Ford guys selling their 6.0 powerstrokes for the CTD. This is coming from a ranching community where their are lots of fullsize diesel trucks with horsetrailers in tow. You can ask any Ford owner and most will tell you that they wish that their Ford truck had the CTD. Edited to add that our work truck (2002 Chevy Dually crew cab with Allison and Duramax) is in the shop again for repairs.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 9:13:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Navistar/International's PowerStroke Diesel is a mess.


Source? Link? Details?

Yes, the '03s and '04s had numerous issues, but starting in '05 many of those were ironed out. Hard to find a "bad" '05-'06 6.0L these days.

GM's DuraMax diesel isn't the cat's meow either.

What? The Duramax has enjoyed TONS of success since its introduction in 2001. GM's market share in the diesel pickup wars has increased DRAMATICALLY due to the Duramax/Allison drivetrain combination. It is also now rated for the most power in a diesel pickup.

I have read/seen many PSD/Duramax owners convert to Cummins and buy Dodge Rams instead.

Uh, what? Spend THOUSANDS of dollars converting a Ford or Chevy to a Cummins...and then buy a Dodge anyway? Are you high, my friend? Of the MILLIONS of diesel pickup owners, what are we talking about, for total conversions? Couple dozen? Couple hundred AT BEST?

The 5.9L I6 Cummins makes like 500+ ft-lb on a flat torque "curve". The Cummins is also reported to be the most gas efficient, quietest, and "powerful" engine out of the Big 3's diesel p/u offerings.

Excuse me for being blunt, but you haven't got a clue. "Gas effificient?" In a diesel? Cummins the most "powerful" engine in a diesel p/u? Since when? A 2006 Dodge Cummins is rated for 325hp and 610tq. The Ford Powerstroke is also 325hp and 570tq. The GM Duramax is rated for 360hp and 650tq.

Please, let's stick to the facts, not guesswork.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 9:22:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 9:42:05 AM EDT by metroplex]


What? The Duramax has enjoyed TONS of success since its introduction in 2001. GM's market share in the diesel pickup wars has increased DRAMATICALLY due to the Duramax/Allison drivetrain combination. It is also now rated for the most power in a diesel pickup.



After how many reflashes?

The only reason I'd get the Ford F-250/F-350 over the Dodge and GM offerings is for the payload capacity and towing capacity. Next up is the GM, with Dodge being dead "last". Since I don't haul or tow much, if at all, the Dodge would suit me just fine.




The 5.9L I6 Cummins makes like 500+ ft-lb on a flat torque "curve". The Cummins is also reported to be the most gas efficient, quietest, and "powerful" engine out of the Big 3's diesel p/u offerings.

Excuse me for being blunt, but you haven't got a clue. "Gas effificient?" In a diesel? Cummins the most "powerful" engine in a diesel p/u? Since when? A 2006 Dodge Cummins is rated for 325hp and 610tq. The Ford Powerstroke is also 325hp and 570tq. The GM Duramax is rated for 360hp and 650tq.



I wrote gas by accident, that is my mistake. However, it IS the quietest diesel out of the Big 3 diesels for the pickups and has been reported to be the smoothest running and more fuel (remember that it can also run on BD100, not just regular diesel) efficient. However, you haven't the foggiest regarding engine power output. Yes, your precious DuraMax has higher peak torque (650 ft-lb vs 610 ft-lb) but look at the Cummins torque CURVE, or rather measure the slope of the torque "curve" That is what you want with an engine, and that is what you typically get with inline diesels. With that amount of torque right off idle, your truck is going to feel more "powerful" off the line.

For instance, an engine that makes 700 ft-lb at 8000 RPM but only 50 ft-lb off-idle isn't going to be moving a heavy vehicle anywhere off the line. An engine that makes at the least 500 ft-lb off idle all the way to its revlimited speed is going to move small to medium weight vehicles (under 3 tons) fairly well. The Hemi V8s suit the 2 ton sedans because you're making at LEAST 300 ft-lb off-idle and it never drops below that. The Ford 4.6/5.4 2V/3V/4V V8s make like 350 ft-lb max if that high at all, around 3000-4000 RPM. They severely lack the low end torque to move heavy vehicles at a fast speed. A numerically high rear axle ratio/final drive ratio can help compensate, but you decrease the driveline critical vehicle speed and with a high driveline angle, and long driveshaft, you may need a composite driveshaft to prevent polevaulting at highway speeds. In addition, you will run into fuel efficiency issues with a numerically higher rear axle ratio.

I looked at the torque curve generated by the 5.9 Cummins and it was impressive but not surprising for a turbo-charged I6 (inline 6-cylinder) diesel. IIRC, it was practically 500+ ft-lb from off idle to 3000 RPM. The Duramax and Navistar are V8s and the max power figures are almost comparable but they had actual curves from what I recall (starts at a low torque and climbs up to the peak value and starts dropping again). This is different from the practically flat "curve" of the Cummins.
It helps more to look at the torque curves rather than magazine/internet peak figures.
ETA: Almost all of the engineers here that have seen, used, or worked on the 5.9 Cummins used in the Dodge Ram noticed that it is one of the quietest diesels around.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 9:31:36 AM EDT
Ideally, I'd prefer the 06-up Ford F-350 chassis, the Cummins 5.9L I6, and GM's Allison transmission uber tacticool!
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 9:45:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 9:47:21 AM EDT by Wobblin-Goblin]

Originally Posted By metroplex:

What? The Duramax has enjoyed TONS of success since its introduction in 2001. GM's market share in the diesel pickup wars has increased DRAMATICALLY due to the Duramax/Allison drivetrain combination. It is also now rated for the most power in a diesel pickup.

The only reason I'd get the Ford F-250/F-350 over the Dodge and GM offerings is for the payload capacity and towing capacity. Next up is the GM, with Dodge being dead "last". Since I don't haul or tow much, if at all, the Dodge would suit me just fine.


If you want to spend $6,000 extra for the diesel option...and not haul or tow anything, I guess that's up to you. Nothing wrong with it, it just doesn't make financial sense. But, to each his own.

...you haven't the foggiest regarding engine power output. Yes, your precious DuraMax has higher peak torque (650 ft-lb vs 610 ft-lb) but look at the Cummins torque CURVE, or rather measure the slope of the torque "curve"

Umm, I personally don't own a Duramax. In fact, you wouldn't catch me dead buying one. However, that doesn't keep me from giving credit where credit is due. My father actually owns an '01 Chevy 2500HD with the D-max/Ally combo, and it has been remarkably reliable and tough. No, I own an '03 F-350 7.3L Powerstroke 4x4 (see avatar) and an '85 Chevy 6.2L diesel. Before my '03, I owned an '01 F-350 7.3L Powerstroke.

That is what you want with an engine, and that is what you typically get with inline diesels. With that amount of torque right off idle, your truck is going to feel more "powerful" off the line.

Between my father, my brother, and me, we own or have owned:

1985 F-250 6.9L diesel
1985 Chevy 1-ton 6.2L diesel
1985 Chevy 3/4-ton 6.2L diesel
1993 Dodge 3/4-ton 12v Cummins 5.9L diesel
1993 F-350 7.3L diesel
1996 Kenworth T300 8.3L Cummins diesel
2001 Chevy 2500HD 6.6L Duramax diesel
2001 F-350 7.3L Powerstroke diesel
2003 F-350 7.3L Powerstroke diesel

I've got probably 170-200K miles of driving and towing with diesels (I tow a 16' trailer every day) and my dad has probably over a million miles of driving and towing with diesels (he's got his CDL and is a former truck driver). Not trying to piss on you, but I kinda know what I'm talking about on this issue.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 10:06:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 10:18:04 AM EDT by metroplex]

If you want to spend $6,000 extra for the diesel option...and not haul or tow anything, I guess that's up to you. Nothing wrong with it, it just doesn't make financial sense. But, to each his own.


You can run BD100 and help end dependence on foreign crude oil. The engines are more reliable and last longer. Heavier vehicles generally need the extra low end torque to move around. I've driven F-350s and E-350s with the 5.4 V8 and the 6.8L V10. I wasn't too impressed.

But since you owned so many diesel trucks you should already know this.



I've got probably 170-200K miles of driving and towing with diesels (I tow a 16' trailer every day) and my dad has probably over a million miles of driving and towing with diesels (he's got his CDL and is a former truck driver). Not trying to piss on you, but I kinda know what I'm talking about on this issue.



Well, would you like a medal? It sounds like you use diesels a lot but you didn't address what I wrote regarding power output and torque curves. On a side note, the Cummins IS quieter and IS smoother running. The nice flat and high torque curve makes the Dodge Ram much more manageable to drive around town, and this is typical with inline engines (more low end torque). Notice that when you're speaking about "peak" values (like from a magazine or the internet), the Cummins 5.9L I6 holds it own against the Dodge and Ford V8 diesel offerings. Go and drive a Dodge Ram with the Cummins. You'll appreciate the off-the-line performance. I'm not sure about the high end performance since I've never taken one WFO on the highway, just city speed testing.

I haul stuff infrequently so I just use a cargo van for the task. I didn't want to spring $6k for the diesel at the time but in retrospect, I should have in case gas availability ever becomes an issue. BD100 is starting to become more available in various areas.

Another way I can explain the torque curve better is to compare something like a 5.4L SOHC 2V and 4V DOHC V8 (Ford Quad-Cam Falcon engine / Navigator / GT) and a 5.7L OHV V8 (Hemi).

In naturally aspirated form, the DOHC V8 makes abysmal low end figures and produces peak values at high engine speeds (4000 RPM for torque and 5000+ RPM for horsepower). Ford uses different intake manifold runner designs to increase low end torque but this sacrifices high end performance. Ford equips the 5.4 2V vans with 3.73s at the minimum and optional 4.10s (for those who want to throw away gas money). The van's 5.4 2V V8 produces a peak 350 ft-lb at 3000 RPM or so, with a revlimited engine speed of 5500 RPM and a speed governor of 89 mph (due to the high driveline angle and LONG driveshaft). Ford uses an aluminum driveshaft to help increase the driveline critical vehicle speed... up to 89 mph. Above 89 mph, you can start polevaulting.

The Hemi 5.7 in the 4200+ lb 4-door DCX sedans produce 300 ft-lb off idle and never drops below this value up to 5000-6000 RPM. Daimler equips them with 2.82s in the back, and you can STILL roast the tires off the line. The engine pulls HARD all the way to the revlimited engine speed. One reason for this is the almost flat torque curve. This is from the OHV engine design among other important criterion in engine design.

Now, when you supercharge the Ford 4.6/5.4 engines using a roots or twin-screw blower, you start to see torque values off-idle close to the torque values seen with the 5.7/6.8 Hemi. this isn't surprising since the supercharger is boosting the efficiency of the motor at the low to mid range. This is not a simple matter of displacement differences.

Why do you think Ford put a supercharger in the $140k ($200k+ street price) Ford GT's 5.4L 4V V8? It's the only way you can make these squirrely OHC modular engines performance half-way decent. Meanwhile Chevy and DCX are having a ball with the OHV 6.xL V8 engines. If you supercharge the SRT-8s, they will most likely not be legal at NHRA-sanctioned tracks w/o safety mods since they're in the low 13s bone stock (if not high 12s). We're talking about 500hp-600hp and almost as much torque

To make a fair comparison of street performance among the Big 3's diesel pickup offerings, look at the weight of the vehicle and the torque values in the low to mid range area of the engine operating speeds. The brochures will usually have a dyno chart showing the engine's performance. The Cummins was basically a flat line . I suppose only engineers could appreciate that
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 10:07:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 10:10:52 AM EDT
Last I checked the 6.0 powerjoke had over 75 TSBs out on it.
A similar GM duramax had less than ten TSBs and the dodge cummins had ZERO.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 10:19:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
It sounds like you use diesels a lot but you didn't address what I wrote regarding power output and torque curves.


Look, sure the new Dodge Cummins has a flat powerband/curve/whatever the heck you want to call it. What you are failing to realize is a couple of things:

1. Cummins has supplied 5.9L I-6 diesels to Dodge since 1988. They've ALL had flat torque curves.

2. Even while noting #1, so what? Virtually ALL diesel engines in pickups have been good performers for towing and hauling. Even the stuff from the early '80s.

On a side note, the Cummins IS quieter and IS smoother running. The nice flat and high torque curve makes the Dodge Ram much more manageable to drive around town, and this is typical with inline engines (more low end torque). Notice that when you're speaking about "peak" values (like from a magazine or the internet), the Cummins 5.9L I6 holds it own against the Dodge and Ford V8 diesel offerings. Go and drive a Dodge Ram with the Cummins. You'll appreciate the off-the-line performance.

We have a Dodge with the Cummins. We also have friends with them (and driven their trucks, too). If I had a choice, I'd want a Cummins 5.9L in a pickup, too, but I'm NOT going to make the V-8 diesels look like "under" performers, because they're not. They just act a little different from an I-6 design.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 10:25:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 10:26:42 AM EDT by metroplex]

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
It sounds like you use diesels a lot but you didn't address what I wrote regarding power output and torque curves.


Look, sure the new Dodge Cummins has a flat powerband/curve/whatever the heck you want to call it. What you are failing to realize is a couple of things:

1. Cummins has supplied 5.9L I-6 diesels to Dodge since 1988. They've ALL had flat torque curves.

2. Even while noting #1, so what? Virtually ALL diesel engines in pickups have been good performers for towing and hauling. Even the stuff from the early '80s.

On a side note, the Cummins IS quieter and IS smoother running. The nice flat and high torque curve makes the Dodge Ram much more manageable to drive around town, and this is typical with inline engines (more low end torque). Notice that when you're speaking about "peak" values (like from a magazine or the internet), the Cummins 5.9L I6 holds it own against the Dodge and Ford V8 diesel offerings. Go and drive a Dodge Ram with the Cummins. You'll appreciate the off-the-line performance.

We have a Dodge with the Cummins. We also have friends with them (and driven their trucks, too). If I had a choice, I'd want a Cummins 5.9L in a pickup, too, but I'm NOT going to make the V-8 diesels look like "under" performers, because they're not. They just act a little different from an I-6 design.



The V8s are not underperformers, but for street driving the Cummins I6 is a bit better due to the high low end torque figures. You won't have to sacrifice fuel efficiency and driveline critical vehicle speed just to get good low end performance by using numerically high rear axle ratios.

What normal red blooded American doesn't want more torque??? I cringe when I hear stuff like "that's too much power" or "that's way too much low end torque" because it simply cannot be true. You can turn monster torque figures in your favor with proper gearing!
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 10:26:16 AM EDT
From the info I have seen on the net the New 6.4 will have 350HP and 650TQ More power than current but not any better than the New duramax.

The real question is... how much will the new regs effect milage and reliability? When the class 8 trucks went to better emmisions motors I think in 02' it caused a bunch of prebuying and then the motors had all sorts of problems and lower mpg. Also maint will probably go up.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 10:27:34 AM EDT
when the 6.0 FIRST came out, there were many problems with it, i had a 2003 6.0 F350 and it had to go in for the computer adjustment one time in the winter, and in the summer i had a turbo go out, i believe they switched turbos now and i didnt have a problem for the next 35000 miles. not even one hiccup. that was the first year they put that motor out.

HAVE THEY SOLVED THE DODGE TRANSMISSION PROBLEM yet?????


i now have a 2006 F350 Crew Cab with the diesel, and it tows like a champ. i run my own small tree removal business and pull at 14,000 GVW trailer all the time... no problem.

i owned a 2000 dodge ram for a year and a half... seems like dodge uses too many chincy parts, it seemed like i was always fixing or glueing a piece of plastic or some thing was wrong, power point quit working, U-joint went out, tailgate was already rusting after a year, just stupid little things. i saw the truck a year after i sold it, the new owner said he blew a radiator somehow, and the head gasket went out. the truck was only 3 years old at this point.

do what i did. 2006 Ford F350
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 10:28:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OregonShooter:
The real question is... how much will the new regs effect milage and reliability? When the class 8 trucks went to better emmisions motors I think in 02' it caused a bunch of prebuying and then the motors had all sorts of problems and lower mpg. Also maint will probably go up.


Fuel economy will go down. Problems will go up.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 10:32:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 10:42:53 AM EDT by Sydwaiz]
I've got an '05 PSD 4x4 and post on the Diesel garage and Diesel Stop sites as well. It's had a couple problems so far but I still like it. The EPA really fucked up the diesels and Ford was trying to meet the new regulations too soon and could never get the new smog equipment and programming right. It's better now. Another thing is the 6.0 really needs to be worked and most drivers just cruise them around the city with no load sooting everything (turbo vanes and EGR) up and not blowing it out. Work it hard and it will treat you better. The only reason I went with the Ford is for the solid front axle. I don't like IFS on 4x4s even though I'm really a Chevy fan. I like the Cummins motor but it's wrapped in a Dodge. That left me one choice plus it was the only one that came in yellow. If you are going to modify it, you may want to stay away from Ford though.

Link Posted: 3/13/2006 10:58:39 AM EDT
I bought a used 2002 Ford F350, 7.3PSD CrewCab 8'SRW two yearsago and have had no maintenance/drivetrain/engine problems whatsoever. I did a ton of reading / surfing sites to learn what I could about all diesel engines for almost a year before I bought it.
My personal choice for my pleasure/ needs was the Ford. I really wanted to buy the '04 6.0L, but couldn't afford the new one, knew better than to buy the '03. I have NO regrets. Which ever you buy, make sure you change the oil and air filters as reccomended. Buy your diesel fuel from a place with high fuel turnover....ie, lots of trucks coming and going. You don't want to pump from an underground tank that has a lot of condensation inside. (from lack of turnover)
Another website you might like to try: Ford-Trucks.com

ford-trucks.com
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:08:34 AM EDT
cant we just sum this up by saying they all have there ups and downs? no matter what one you get your more than likely gonna love it?
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:11:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HillBillySniper:
cant we just sum this up by saying they all have there ups and downs? no matter what one you get your more than likely gonna love it?


I guess I implied that 16 posts ago.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:13:56 AM EDT
lol ya i think i did about half way down on the first page. thought maybe if i say it enough it might sink in.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:23:19 AM EDT
All 3 trucks are good, some have better points than others. I love Ford, love my F150, but I told my father to buy a Dode cummins. It was about 7k cheaper than the comparable F250. So far, the first 50k miles have have ZERO issues. That cummins will pull anything, and the truck itself is quiet and smooth.
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