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Posted: 3/11/2006 9:43:50 PM EDT
We have two huge indian casinos in CT. I was told before by a tribal member there that on the
reservation that no federal or state agency can enforce laws. I then asked him So you are saying
that you could build a shop and build any type of weapon fullautos included and as long as it stays on the reservation
ATF can't stop you. He said as far as he knew as long as they stayed and were used there only.
It would be legal.

I told him I think he's wrong.
What do you say
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 9:44:30 PM EDT


sorry i don't believe it

the feds do whatever the fuck they want
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 9:51:01 PM EDT
I think they still have to obey all federal laws, but do not have to obey the state laws which their reservation is within the borders of. For practical purposes it's like they are another state.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 9:51:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
We have two huge indian casinos in CT. I was told before by a tribal member there that on the
reservation that no federal or state agency can enforce laws.
I then asked him So you are saying
that you could build a shop and build any type of weapon fullautos included and as long as it stays on the reservation
ATF can't stop you. He said as far as he knew as long as they stayed and were used there only.
It would be legal.

I told him I think he's wrong.
What do you say

Tell that to the Bureau of Indian Affairs police officers that routinely arrest lawbreakers on the res!
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 9:56:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:


sorry i don't believe it

the feds do whatever the fuck they want



That's what I told him also,The only story I can think of was we had a native americain that deserted in 1978
and it was known he was on a reservation for a long time ,and the way he was picked up was he went into town and got in a fight and got arrested and was held by the sheriff until MP's picked him up. They could not go on the reservation and get him even though the Corps knew he was there.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 9:59:48 PM EDT
That tribal member is full of shit. Reservations do make their own tribal laws, but they follow the Fed standard. In fact, there is some speculation right now as to whether tribal PD's can have full auto.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 10:00:00 PM EDT
i'd say

reservations are less regulated than other places, but make no mistake, they are still part of the US.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 10:14:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
i'd say

reservations are less regulated than other places, but make no mistake, they are still part of the US.



Are they more a part of the US than Micronesia and the Phillipines where AFAIK you can own fullautos? I always remember thinking that Native American reservations were a "country in a country"
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 10:17:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Are they more a part of the US than Micronesia and the Phillipines where AFAIK you can own fullautos? I always remember thinking that Native American reservations were a "country in a country"



the Phillipines has been a completely independent country for some time, not sure about Micronesia.

reservations are not a country in a country. they have limited sovregnty, but if push came to shove, the fed gov't would have the final say. i'd say that they're in a gray area between being just another city, and being an independent state
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 10:19:48 PM EDT
Legally speaking Native nations are sovereign states, with the notable exception of not being able to make treaties with other nations. That doesn't stop the feds from shitting all over them like they shit all over the rest of us.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 10:33:38 PM EDT
If it full-auto was legal on reservations, could we legally move on to them somehow?
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 10:47:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OBird:
If it full-auto was legal on reservations, could we legally move on to them somehow?


You could legally move to a reservation, but unless you were a tribal member (blood) All Fed and some state laws would still apply to you.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 10:56:26 PM EDT
I have to call bullshit on this man, as a tribal member of an Oklahoma tribe, our lands are not subject to state and local laws, but we all have to abide by the federal standards and the laws that are passed by the tribe itself, I deal with tribal, local, state and on occasion federal athorities nearly every day in the job I do for my tribe, we get very little cooperation from the state and local guys because any crimes commented on trust land can't be tried in the state or county court systems, they all have to go through tribal, then federal courts,

now if the tribe has a compact with the county that allows for cross deputization, then the county has limited athourity depending on the guidelines set forth in the compact, its a confussing situation for a lot of local communities when they have to deal with the tribes, lots of head butting and arguements start when jurisdiction is in question, but theres no questions asked when the BIA, FBI or Marshals make an appearance.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 11:05:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
i'd say

reservations are less regulated than other places, but make no mistake, they are still part of the US.



Are they more a part of the US than Micronesia and the Phillipines where AFAIK you can own fullautos? I always remember thinking that Native American reservations were a "country in a country"



Philippines haven’t been US since WWII. IIRC, they became part of the US as part of the terms ending the Spanish-American war.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 11:14:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 2:14:42 AM EDT by muddydog]
maybe i can chime in here..
Ndanway is on the money...

indian land is a quirky thing..
there are a couple of types. 1- a reservation, 2- tribal land -all soveriegn but within limits.

in Oklahoma..where we have a ton of "nation land" which was land deeded to the tribes..which then sold off sections to whitey. basically the whole state is considered by tribal soveriegnty at one time or another.

now..indians and whitey have deeded some of that land back to the tribe.."smokeshops and housing"
your neighbors on both sides could live in housing that is deeded to a tribe..and untouchable to alot of local and state LEO's without tribal approval( cross deputization).

we have alot of cross deputized local leo's as well as tribal dog soldiers and the bia.

anything done on these lands must still be done legal to federal laws otherwise the FBI and BIA chime in. any crime committed on tribal land usually gets the FBI involved..i see no reason that BATF wouldnt be capable of an investigation as well.

the whole nation issue is too real here..
indian car tags..
lawmen waiting on the roads waiting on a cross deputized officer to get to a scene.

as far as tribal police and issues with full autos..i think is bunk..they are a certified police force with BIA involvement.



Link Posted: 3/11/2006 11:19:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2006 11:21:08 PM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
i'd say

reservations are less regulated than other places, but make no mistake, they are still part of the US.



Are they more a part of the US than Micronesia and the Phillipines where AFAIK you can own fullautos? I always remember thinking that Native American reservations were a "country in a country"



The Phillipines haven't been part of the USA for YEARS...

Puerto Rico is the 'Country in a Country'....
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 11:23:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
i'd say han


Are they more a part of the US than Micronesia and the Phillipines where AFAIK you can own fullautos? I always remember thinking that Native American reservations were a "country in a country"


Philippines have been independant since 1946...

And um, Micronesia is a geographic area that includes some US territory and several independant countries.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 4:37:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By muddydog:
anything done on these lands must still be done legal to federal laws otherwise the FBI and BIA chime in. any crime committed on tribal land usually gets the FBI involved..i see no reason that BATF wouldnt be capable of an investigation as well.




my tribe just sent several of its officers to get BIA certification, once they complete/pass the course they'll be certfied for all 50 states, they did it that way so that they didn't have to make a compact with the local counties or state, as for the BATF doing an investigation on trust property, they can along with any other agency in the DOJ.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 4:44:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
the feds do whatever the fuck they want



..........anywhere they want to.

.....to whoever they want to.

.......any way they want to.

............and they can make it look OK to the vast American idiot population.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 4:54:03 AM EDT
State laws?
Sounds like California & Massachussets tribes could get around gun & magazine bans while they are on the reservation, and quite possibly off since they aren't Cali residents.

Will we see California ARFKOM members flocking to reservations?

(Sorry about the hijack.)
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 4:54:25 AM EDT
I know nothing about the subject except a couple of years ago when the Indians in Upstate NY had a confrontation with the Govt. (Also with the Canadian govt., The reservation must cross the US border into Canada at some point) over some issues, I remember hearing plenty of full auto fire in the background as some reporter tried to get the story (It looked like he was going to shit & die when it started).
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 5:13:50 AM EDT
there is a difference..in reservation land..and tribal land.

a reservation is a federal land given to a tribe live on.

tribal land is land owned by a tribe thru a treaty.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 5:15:59 AM EDT
right again Ndenway..

as far as i know..once a tribal policeman gets BIA certification..they can go on any tribal land in the US.

not just specifically the tribe of the dog/horse soldier.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 5:27:35 AM EDT
the local LEO departments..get frantic about cross deputization...of tribes within their district..otherwise they are neutered.

the tribes can CUT any or all cross deputization for local-state LEO department by a vote of the tribal coucil at any time.

too many tickets to tribal members...somebody gets rough with a tribal member somewhere..etc..etc..
bingo..
all free checks are cashed in at the next council meeting.

frankly i like to watch things unfold..when someone runs from the local johny law parks their car in the drive way..and walks into to the house like nothing is wrong.. while the policeman waits in the road..

i've seen that done several times.

i've seen people wave at the cops from the door..

true..a lighthorseman will show later on..but it is one last get back at "the Man"...
its a catch 22 for the cops..
they have to decide if what they were going to stop them for was worth waiting for BIA or the lighthorsemen.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 6:20:07 AM EDT
You cain't sell them Injuns Firewater or Carbines!

I saw it in a John Wayne movie! It must be true.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 6:25:25 AM EDT
Indian Reservations/Nations/Agencies fall under federal jurisdicition. (BIA)
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 6:43:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheTracker:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:


sorry i don't believe it

the feds do whatever the fuck they want



That's what I told him also,The only story I can think of was we had a native americain that deserted in 1978
and it was known he was on a reservation for a long time ,and the way he was picked up was he went into town and got in a fight and got arrested and was held by the sheriff until MP's picked him up. They could not go on the reservation and get him even though the Corps knew he was there.



most likely they just didn't want a PR shitstorm for going after him just for deserting
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 7:01:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By muddydog:
the local LEO departments..get frantic about cross deputization...of tribes within their district..otherwise they are neutered.

the tribes can CUT any or all cross deputization for local-state LEO department by a vote of the tribal coucil at any time.

too many tickets to tribal members...somebody gets rough with a tribal member somewhere..etc..etc..
bingo..
all free checks are cashed in at the next council meeting.

frankly i like to watch things unfold..when someone runs from the local johny law parks their car in the drive way..and walks into to the house like nothing is wrong.. while the policeman waits in the road..
i've seen that done several times.

i've seen people wave at the cops from the door..

true..a lighthorseman will show later on..but it is one last get back at "the Man"...
its a catch 22 for the cops..
they have to decide if what they were going to stop them for was worth waiting for BIA or the lighthorsemen.



in oklahoma nowdays, well at least in the last 15 years or so that I know of, if state or local cops are in pursuit and the individual ducks into tribal land and runs into a residence or such, then he's still fucked, the non tribal cops can still come in and arrest them as outlined in the law without having to contact tribal, because the person was in the commission of a crime (felony pursuit/evading or worse) in their jurisdiction before crossing boundries, I've seen it happen while working for the chickasaw tribe and mine own on quite a few occasions,

funny thing also about tribal law, is if the tribe doesn't have cross deputization within the county their in, they can't arrest anyone that is non-tribal, they can detain them till county or local shows, but they cannot arrest and take them to jail, it works viseversa also, in that county can detain an indian on tribal land until tribal cops show up and take custody,

from my understanding BIA agents can arrest anyone anywhere since they have essentially the same powers of arthority as the FBI, Marshalls ect.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 7:54:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ndenway:

Originally Posted By muddydog:
the local LEO departments..get frantic about cross deputization...of tribes within their district..otherwise they are neutered.

the tribes can CUT any or all cross deputization for local-state LEO department by a vote of the tribal coucil at any time.

too many tickets to tribal members...somebody gets rough with a tribal member somewhere..etc..etc..
bingo..
all free checks are cashed in at the next council meeting.

frankly i like to watch things unfold..when someone runs from the local johny law parks their car in the drive way..and walks into to the house like nothing is wrong.. while the policeman waits in the road..
i've seen that done several times.

i've seen people wave at the cops from the door..

true..a lighthorseman will show later on..but it is one last get back at "the Man"...
its a catch 22 for the cops..
they have to decide if what they were going to stop them for was worth waiting for BIA or the lighthorsemen.



in oklahoma nowdays, well at least in the last 15 years or so that I know of, if state or local cops are in pursuit and the individual ducks into tribal land and runs into a residence or such, then he's still fucked, the non tribal cops can still come in and arrest them as outlined in the law without having to contact tribal, because the person was in the commission of a crime (felony pursuit/evading or worse) in their jurisdiction before crossing boundries, I've seen it happen while working for the chickasaw tribe and mine own on quite a few occasions,

funny thing also about tribal law, is if the tribe doesn't have cross deputization within the county their in, they can't arrest anyone that is non-tribal, they can detain them till county or local shows, but they cannot arrest and take them to jail, it works viseversa also, in that county can detain an indian on tribal land until tribal cops show up and take custody,

from my understanding BIA agents can arrest anyone anywhere since they have essentially the same powers of arthority as the FBI, Marshalls ect.


Your understanding is correct. There is actually a pile of crap to go through before one can decide exactly who has jurisditcion over someone in Indian Country. It could be tribal, State or Fed, depending on who the perp is and who the vic is.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 2:33:49 PM EDT
Tribes are sovereign until they start raking in too much cash from tribal enterprises.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 6:16:38 PM EDT
its been years since i have witnessed some of the fiascos back home..
the house where i grew up in had choctaw land with housing in some timber below my dads house.

a few of the men that lived there were notorious druggies and boozers..

it is very possible that some of the kinks have been worked out of the system...since the late 80's and early 90's. they had to do something..it was sad to watch LEO's have to sort things out like that.

true story..
every night..they would have a "pow-pow"..complete with a massive camp fire..fire water and the appropriate rock music..till the we hours of the morning..

i watched so many drug raids on that property i lost count by the time i was in high school..

Link Posted: 3/12/2006 6:24:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ndenway:
I have to call bullshit on this man, as a tribal member of an Oklahoma tribe, our lands are not subject to state and local laws, but we all have to abide by the federal standards and the laws that are passed by the tribe itself, I deal with tribal, local, state and on occasion federal athorities nearly every day in the job I do for my tribe, we get very little cooperation from the state and local guys because any crimes commented on trust land can't be tried in the state or county court systems, they all have to go through tribal, then federal courts,

now if the tribe has a compact with the county that allows for cross deputization, then the county has limited athourity depending on the guidelines set forth in the compact, its a confussing situation for a lot of local communities when they have to deal with the tribes, lots of head butting and arguements start when jurisdiction is in question, but theres no questions asked when the BIA, FBI or Marshals make an appearance.



There is no federal law prohibiting prostitution yet the state laws in which the the reservation sits makes it illegal.
How do you explain that?
Are you saying that none of the reservations in this country wouldn't have brothels if they could?
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 11:22:38 PM EDT
At least some state laws do apply, since tribes have to negotiate with states for gambling compacts and (theoretically) pay a chunk of the income to the state in taxes.

One weird little-known fact is that, in Washington state at least, the tribal police cannot give you a meaningful ticket unless you are a tribe member. They still pull people over, figuring that most people don't know that -- and the time I had to go in to fight a ticket they gave me, the other four honkies all groveled and paid fines even though I *told* them that the tickets weren't valid. IIRC, the proper phrase to use is "respectfully, your Honor, please dismiss the ticket due to lack of jurisdiction, since I am not a member of the tribe." You could also rub it in by adding "... and your compact with the State of Washington only allows your tribal police to issue tickets to tribe members."

The only reasons to bother fighting the tickets instead of just ignoring them are that if you just throw away the ticket, (1) the tribes sell the "fine" to a collection agency and you get harrassed for the rest of your life, and (2) if you get nailed again on the reservation, the tribal cops will get nastier and might try to impound your vehicle and haul you into jail for a bit.

Disclaimer: this was true in 1998. It might have changed; ask a cop or maybe someone living just off the Rez (gas station owners would be a good bet; a Bellevue cop told me about it, and the gas station lady confirmed it when I was on my way to fight it).
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