User Panel
Posted: 3/9/2006 8:09:37 PM EDT
And wish more modern police departments understood and followed them:
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What makes you think agencies AREN't following those principles? |
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Go back and read #7. Then tell me why cops insist on calling people like me "civilians." Go back and read #1. Then tell me why they spend so much time and effort writing 7-mph-over speeding tickets. Go back and read #4. Then tell me why every po-dunk town has a SWAT team, or as close to one as they can afford. |
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That was the funniest one |
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Civilians is simply a term of speech to distinguish members of agroup from those outside the group. Vaudeville actors referred to non-vaudeville people as civilians as well. As for tickets, its probably most likely due to the residents of that area requesting that level of enforcement. SWAT exists because its needed. Plain and simple. |
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I was at a lecture tonight on 19th century policing. In the mid-19th century in any big city the police force was tiny and all a policeman had to do was "raise the alarm" and the citizens responded.
GunLvr |
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haven't the courts directly countered that by saying the police are not responsible to prevent any criminal act? |
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Actually, it's a catch-22. Cops do their job, crime goes away, and the first thing people start saying is that we don't need a Police department, so they abolish it. A couple months later, whores and crackheads abound, so the re-establish a PD. Sadly enough, cops need crime to stay in existence. |
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Absolutely! Without crime, they have no income, their existence is based on crime. Yes, it is a sad truth but, it is the truth, nonetheless. |
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Crime is never going to go away; there is always someone willing to fill the void created by the arrest of criminals. |
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Reminds me of a conversation years ago with an Episcopal minister. "How's business?" "Oh, just fine. There's still plenty of sin in the world." |
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Dunno bout that, they have an almost unlimited income\revenue stream from traffic citations in Houston Most of the Depts here are now understaffed, if you want to be a LEO come to Houston, they are hiring Part of that is probably because of the high crime rates, regardless of the completely misleading statistics Crime is definitely increasing faster than our ability to deal with it, and yes, the illegals are part of that |
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Too many people think it is a perfectly valid use of lawmaking powers to send a message, and too many lawmakers agree with them. No quicker way to crush respect for the rule of law then to start using it to make law they know has no actual purpose. |
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In this day and age, I'll agree... No village/small-town chief or po-dunk sherriff wants to be the guy with his head on the block because 'something happened' that his department couldn't deal with... It's there for that ONE TIME they legitimately need a fire-team sized force in full battle rattle, so that when it's all over they can say 'we responded' instead of getting their asses chewed by the public for being caught with their pants down... Besides, it's not like these small town tac-teams have anything most of you folks don't have, anyway... It's just like 'why do cops wear body armor'? Not because they're expecting to get in a gunfight, but just in case they MIGHT get shot.... |
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Sadly, I would say that legislatures create crime by enacting stupid laws. Making something illegal simply because you don't happen to like it, is what I am talking about. |
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And get more stupid by the post. |
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I guess it depends on whos definition you go by: ci·vil·ian ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-vlyn) n. A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military or police. A specialist in Roman or civil law. adj. Of or relating to civilians or civil life; nonmilitary: civilian clothes; a civilian career. Modern Police agencies are para-military in structure. Are they not in fact "Armed Forces" |
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While I am of the opinion that anyone not in the military is a civilian, my younger brother, who's the fire chief in these parts, calls anyone a "civilian" on site who's not a firefighter.
I guess that's what a group of people with specified training does. They consider themselves set apart from everybody else. |
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That was pretty funny. |
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Re-read Peel's Rule #7: 7. Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. Instead, today we get "Let the authorities handle it. You're not qualified." Because we're just civilians, and they're the only ones professional enough to handle a Glock .40. |
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It also has to do with the militarized mindset that the term "civilian" indicates. Police are not supposed to be a paramilitary force, because it brings with it a mindset toward interaction and use of force that is antithetical to good police procedure. |
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I was just thinking that. |
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I think you guys are getting your feathers ruffled over a non-issue. |
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+1 |
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Police work IS paramilitary. You have uniforms, a rank structure, rules and regulations, etc, all of which is paramilitary in nature. |
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so does this mean that they shouldnt use the SWAT team to make drug busts? That's be a revolutionary concept!
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+2 And for those bitching that the police say "you're not qualified to handle it" remember, most of the time, people are NOT qualified to handle it. People, as a whole, are stupid, lazy, inefficient and worthless. Do you think the police department condoning taking laws into the peoples own hands would result in anything but pure anarchy? How long before we would see "He pissed me off, so I shot him." on a much greater scale than it already is. Now, granted, that is an extreme example, but where do you draw the line. And on that note, most of the cops I know are all for people handling their own problems if they are able. I think that often, the words of administrators and the words of flatfoot "cops" are considered one and the same. I've got news for ya, the views of a real working-the-road, watching-shit-go-down-every-day cop and his administration rarely are anything close to the same. |
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Some of the biggest problems in modern policing are:
1. In inner city areas the police get zero co operation from anyone because it is gangland and no one wants the police there interfering with their drug sales, gang wars, and the life they love so well. 2. People are now encouraged to call the police for matters that are not law enforcement. This creates a problem for police who arrive and really have no action to take since they are not armed babysitters. 3. Police are now legally prohibited from doing what most people think is their job. People are usually shocked to learn about Supreme Court decisions since the 70's and departmental policies. Police now would be imprisoned for policing like police did until the late 70's. Bottom line police are the only people who will come to your house if you call them day or night for whatever reason. They are not a genie in a bottle who can grant your wishes or straighten out your uttterly fucked up life. |
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So very true. |
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If my wife or child are held hostage, get out of the way, I'll go in myself and get them. I have over 1K hours of counterstrike, I can clear a room like nobodys business. "Counter terrorists win biotches!" |
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Most of the cops I work with have figured out that we are civilians, since we are not the military. So we refer to non cops as "citizens", which most of the folks we meet are.
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Amazing. 1. Military are NOT "civilians". Your ass is OWNED by the .gov. You are no longer afforded protections that are due to citizens, and you are subject to the UCMJ. However, a soldier is still a citizen (when applicable). LEO ARE civilians. They are public servants who are supposed to be 2. If you need a word to describe someone who is NOT a LEO, try "Citizen". It's much more respectful. Kind of like calls a cop "Police Officer" vs. "Copper". |
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Absolutely. Every year the public school contributes to job security |
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I blame the fucking politicians who have realized that by promising that their people will do more than if the "other guy" gets elected. For the life of me, I can't understand why these fucking people call 911 for something, but by the time we get there, they refuse even talk to us. Many here bitch about cops that do everything BUT law enforcement. Lemme tell ya, the common folk of the country want us to do everything except law enforcement. They want their children raised, their ex-husband/wife arrested, and their neighbor shot. We should do everything in the world for them except bother them. It's crazy. |
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Sorry, but I don't blame it on the schools; I blame it on the parents and the people in question. |
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I certainly figure there is enough blame for the schools too. Have you TALKED to a high school "Graduate" lately? VERY scary. hould BTW: We call anyone not in the field "Civilians" too. (When we're not using "Stupid Jerk") |
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This is going to get fun. So just exactly which definition are you using to determine who is or is not a "civilian"? Here's one from Webster's... Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: s&-'vil-y&n also -'vi-y&n Function: noun 1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law 2 a : one not on active duty in a military, police, or fire-fighting force b : OUTSIDER 1 - civilian adjective ...and one from Cambridge Dictionaries.... civilian noun [C] a person who is not a member of the police or the armed forces: ...and from dictionary.reference.com..... ci·vil·ian ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-vlyn) n. A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military or police. A specialist in Roman or civil law. IT"S JUST A WORD! Get over yourselves already.... |
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Updated for present times:
1. The basic mission for which the police exist is to provide revenue for the the government, to gradually use different methods to erode the Bill of Rights, and to provide a class of citizen with more rights then the average civilian. 2. The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the whim of the police officer. 3. Police could care less about the respect of the public. 4. The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force caught on camera, if there is no video evidence the physical force never happened. 5. Police provide different service to the law depending if you are another police officer, work for the government, are rich or famous, or just a regular "civilian". 6. Police use physical force when they want, only if the force is videotaped will there be a problem. 7. Police are a protected class of citizen, and simple "civilians" can't understand or take care of themselves. 8. Police view everyone who is not a police officer as a criminal: unless you are rich, famous, or a member of the government. 9. The police are inefficient. |
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Those definitions were updated in the last 10 years or so. Definitions are changed with the times, unfortunately. |
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4. The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force caught on camera, if there is no video evidence the physical force never happened.
Remember.....STOP RESISTING......STOP RESISTING! I am very confused....... I am a LEO and a ex fultime now part time soldier.... What do I call myself |
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Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him. |
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Bwahahahahahhh!!!!! You've obviously been smoking some of the evidence. |
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Modern Police are not subject to the UCMJ. Therefore, they are civilians. |
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