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Posted: 3/7/2006 7:00:43 AM EDT
Winning the war on terror by clogging their sinuses?

Patriot Act Cracks Down On Methamphetamine In Common Products


Updated: March 7th, 2006 10:10 AM EDT


LAURIE KELLMAN
Associated Press Writer


Suffer from springtime allergies? You could be among the first affected by the USA Patriot Act poised for final congressional passage this week.

Besides terrorism, the bill takes aim at the production of methamphetamine, a highly addictive drug that cannot be manufactured without a key ingredient of everyday cold and allergy medicines. The bill would impose new limits next month for how much relief a person can buy over the counter.

And beginning Sept. 30, it'll take a flash of ID to buy that medication.


The legislation sponsored by Sens. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif. and Jim Talent, R-Mo., would blanket the nation with one policy that would put medicines containing pseudoephedrine behind the counter and out of the reach of meth cooks.

"If we leave it up to local jurisdiction, we're simply going to move the problem from one jurisdiction to another without addressing the root cause," said Fresno, Calif., Police Chief Jerry Dyer.

Pass a state or local law cracking down on methamphetamine production, set off a cycle that goes something like this:

The black market price of cold tablets needed to make the drug skyrockets, driving the meth makers to the jurisdiction next door. There, they buy it in bulk - legally, cheaply, anonymously.

That is, until that state or city gets tough on meth with new laws of its own.

Rather than wait for localities to stitch together a patchwork of anti meth policies, the provision of the Patriot Act would leave meth producers nowhere to run but out of the country. It takes aim at the meth trade's weakest point - the supply of pseudoephedrine.

Beginning 30 days after President Bush signs the law, expected sometime this week, purchase limits go into effect. One person would be limited to buying 300, 30-mg pills in a month or 120 such pills in a day. The measure would make an exception for "single-use" sales - individually packaged pseudoephedrine products.

Many retailers, such as Kmart, Walgreens, Target and Wal-Mart, have already adopted guidelines to limit customer access to cold products or to limit their sales.

Similar state and local restrictions have caused seizures of meth labs to plunge by double-digit percentages in such states as Arkansas, Oregon and Missouri.

At the same time, drug agents began finding more meth from Mexican cartels on the street.

Still, closing down domestic meth labs is of unique urgency to public health and safety, law enforcement officials said.

The drug is made in clandestine labs with battery acid, drain cleaner or other chemicals that help turn the cold and allergy medicine into powder.

One quart of ether, another ingredient, holds the explosive power of several sticks of dynamite, said Sgt. Jason Grellner of the Franklin County, Mo., Narcotics Enforcement Unit, which has seized 600 meth labs since 1998 in a jurisdiction of 100,000 people.

Wading into the toxic soup of a meth lab puts officers in situations for which they are not necessarily trained, Grellner said.

"They have to know the job of a hazardous-waste chemist. They have to have the mindset of a firefighter. They have to be a natural-resources worker," Grellner said. "Wearing that many hats is a safety concern."

And an abandoned lab becomes an environmental hazard, pointed out Dyer.

"They were leaving the chemicals and equipment out in the open and vacating the property," Dyer said. "They found out that we started to trace down suspects with that equipment. Now they are burying these same items underground."

Oklahoma provides evidence that driving out meth labs doesn't mean getting rid of meth. Oklahoma's meth lab seizures have fallen 90 percent since April 2004, when it became the first state to ban over-the-counter sales of everyday cold and allergy medications.

At the same time, seizures of smokeable Mexican meth known as "crystal ice" rose nearly fivefold, from 384 cases in the 15 months before the law to 1,875 since.

"We're going to see trafficking by Mexican cartel organizations, on a much larger scale," Grellner said.

Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:13:20 AM EDT
Low capacity pill bottles...its for the children
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:14:46 AM EDT
120 pills a day? That's not low usage.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:15:56 AM EDT
As one of MILLIONS who suffer from seasonal allergies, things like this piss me off. There is no legitimate reason why I, a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN, should be forced to suffer due to some meth-head's addiction.

It may sound cruel, but... I figure if a person is stupid enough to use shit like meth, or other deadly drugs, and they die - that is a good thing. One less piece of shit on our streets.

Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:16:36 AM EDT
There are plenty of better alternatives to pseudoephedrine, so I can't say that regulating it more heavily bothers me.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:18:25 AM EDT
Give them an inch and they take...
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:22:18 AM EDT
[gubmint apologist] Well, if you're not doing anything wrong..... [gubmint apologist]
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:22:47 AM EDT
It's about freedom people. Just one more area where the Nanny State tells us slaves what to do. The "war on terror" and the "war on drugs" are really a "war on our freedoms"

Anyone else notice that the same people who want to disarm you want to control every aspect of your life?!?! And the despicable attitude that people have "It doesn't effect me so why should I care.."

It is about freedom and it DOES effect you! It effects all of us. This is just ANOTHER area where the almighty Nanny State tells you what you can and can't do. WAKE UP PEOPLE.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:24:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cheaptrickfan:
As one of MILLIONS who suffer from seasonal allergies, things like this piss me off. There is no legitimate reason why I, a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN, should be forced to suffer due to some meth-head's addiction.



There is no reason anti terrorism legislation should contain any domestic drug restrictions. Want to hurt the terrorist? Restrict raw opium, not Pseudaphed.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:24:06 AM EDT
We gotta fight the war on terr.. err drugs err something you know.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:24:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
There are plenty of better alternatives to pseudoephedrine, so I can't say that regulating it more heavily bothers me.



What?

It is the most effective (for the price) I have ever used.

Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:37:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
There are plenty of better alternatives to pseudoephedrine, so I can't say that regulating it more heavily bothers me.



What?

It is the most effective (for the price) I have ever used.





Phenylephrine, aka Sudafed PE. Similar chemical, same effect, can't be used to make meth. Word is psuedoephedrine will be 100% off the market in 5 years.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:40:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
There are plenty of better alternatives to pseudoephedrine, so I can't say that regulating it more heavily bothers me.



What?

It is the most effective (for the price) I have ever used.





Phenylephrine, aka Sudafed PE. Similar chemical, same effect, can't be used to make meth. Word is psuedoephedrine will be 100% off the market in 5 years.



Well, that's cool. Is it in the same price range?

And what will this do to Alegra for example? Where Alegra-D has pseudophedrine HCl...I guess that's with a script so it's ok.

Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:42:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
There are plenty of better alternatives to pseudoephedrine, so I can't say that regulating it more heavily bothers me.



I only hunt with bolt actions, so I can't say regulating semi-autos more bothers me.
Sweet line of thought you have there.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:43:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By j-fonz:
120 pills a day? That's not low usage.



Think people want to go to the pharmacy every day to be dispenced today's allergy meds. Or might they prefer to buy them in quanity on any given day and use that supply over the course of several months.

Thanks to Missouri's law we now both have to go buy them because my wife can't buy enough her herself and me. Now Jim Talent proudly proclaims in an email to me that he is taking this nonsense national, and that's his big accomplishment for the term .

Make it a prescription med or don't but lets knock off this pseudo-regulated, half assed, poorly executed and thought out bullshit.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:46:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 7:47:04 AM EDT by dolanp]

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
There are plenty of better alternatives to pseudoephedrine, so I can't say that regulating it more heavily bothers me.



There are plenty of better rifles for hunting, so I can't say that regulating assault weapons heavily bothers me.




eta: oops someone beat me to it.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:48:23 AM EDT

There are plenty of better alternatives to pseudoephedrine AR-15s, so I can't say that regulating it more heavily bothers me.




See where we're going with this?
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:49:12 AM EDT
what happens if you buy some sinus meds with your credit card?
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:49:27 AM EDT
In Indiana, you already have to sign the narcotics and controlled substances log book before you can purchase cold or alergy medicine.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:51:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By efpeter:
In Indiana, you already have to sign the narcotics and controlled substances log book before you can purchase cold or alergy medicine.



TX too, they had to run my DL through some computer the last time I bought Sudafed and made me sign all this crap.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:52:12 AM EDT
They will just import more meth from Mexico. Here in Dallas drug labs do not really exists. It just flows over our unprotected border with Mexico.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:53:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By cheaptrickfan:
As one of MILLIONS who suffer from seasonal allergies, things like this piss me off. There is no legitimate reason why I, a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN, should be forced to suffer due to some meth-head's addiction.



There is no reason anti terrorism legislation should contain any domestic drug restrictions. Want to hurt the terrorist? Restrict raw opium, not Pseudaphed.



That's what I didn't understand.
Is there some meth<==>terrorism connection I'm not seeing?
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:55:01 AM EDT
Geez. Pseudoephedrine works on my sinus headaches.

(once on a cruise I got a big sinus headache... they gave me real-deal Ephedra (we were out at sea)... that stuff WORKS!)
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:20:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
Geez. Pseudoephedrine works on my sinus headaches.

(once on a cruise I got a big sinus headache... they gave me real-deal Ephedra (we were out at sea)... that stuff WORKS!)



+100

Here in Tennessee, they have the "background check" ( ) for pseudoephedrine.
I get sinus headaches, and have used Sinus Tylenol (and WalMart's generic version) with good results. When I tried the "New Formulation", it did not work nearly as well.

HKO
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:24:56 AM EDT
Gee, I guess all the Mexican super labs will be shut down now.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:30:18 AM EDT
If you are burning thru 120 pills a month (much less a day) You have issues and better seek a more effective treatment.

My box of Generic Walgreen stuff (compare to Actifed) is a 48 count box with a max dose of 4 per day for not more than 2 weeks.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:33:57 AM EDT
The funny thing about this is that the meth cooks have already learned to synthesize pseudoeph from MOLASSES of all things...

Yeah, I need some pancake syrup...

In the pharmacy?

You want my ID?
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:36:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By livefreeordieNH:
We gotta fight the war on terr.. err drugs err something you know.



have a reason for us (Congress) to exist. If you can look after yourself, we'll have to go get real jobs.

Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:37:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By cheaptrickfan:
As one of MILLIONS who suffer from seasonal allergies, things like this piss me off. There is no legitimate reason why I, a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN, should be forced to suffer due to some meth-head's addiction.



There is no reason anti terrorism legislation should contain any domestic drug restrictions. Want to hurt the terrorist? Restrict raw opium, not Pseudaphed.




A big +1.

That's why we need a Line Item Veto. It'll keep totally unrelated bullshit out of legislation. You want a restricion on pseudoephedrine? Fine, pass a law containing it if you can (and that may be where the problem comes in---crap some select group wants passed is attached to a must-pass bill). DO NOT add it to another, totally different bill.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:37:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
If you are burning thru 120 pills a month (much less a day) You have issues and better seek a more effective treatment.

My box of Generic Walgreen stuff (compare to Actifed) is a 48 count box with a max dose of 4 per day for not more than 2 weeks.



Except that allergies are passed via genetics. A mother with allergies who has three kids with allergies, taking 2 pills per day, that is a 15 day supply. But the worst part is standing in the loser line with all the lotto purchasers and cigarette purchasers in order to get some damned allergy medicine. Not the end of the world, but a pain in the ass.

They should just lock all the methheads in a big room, give them all the meth they want, and let them kill themselves.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:38:09 AM EDT
the wonderful govment at work..... truly fucked up. what does meth have to do with towel heads? why does the govment have to run around doing stuff like this and at the same time ignoring the literal tons of stuff coming across the mexican border?

its almost like the stuff the govment does lately is the script from a 3 stooges movie... sell the ports to the arabs, use the patriot act to ban ephedrine, do nothing about the borders.....
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:38:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
If you are burning thru 120 pills a month (much less a day) You have issues and better seek a more effective treatment.

My box of Generic Walgreen stuff (compare to Actifed) is a 48 count box with a max dose of 4 per day for not more than 2 weeks.



So why not place it under the prescription system and be done with it? Then I take my script in and get what I need instead of some $5/hr counter monkey telling me I bought "too many boxes" already because the store thinks 5 pill boxes and 10 pill boxes should be treated the same?

This is the more effective treatment I have found, and it's getting irratating to jump through more hoops to buy it than I do to buy a rifle. Just because the federal law appears to be better then my state's doesn't mean I'm happy to see the Feds come riding in and telling us all what we can take for cold and allergy medicine.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:40:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
There are plenty of better alternatives to pseudoephedrine, so I can't say that regulating it more heavily bothers me.



Not for me. when my nose starts running, it is the best thing out there for me.
This is bullshit. Once again, the actions of a few criminals makes my legal use a pain in the ass. Just as with guns. Same story with cash. If I want to take 20K from the bank and pay cash for a car, I risk everything with a seizure, because of drug bullshit.

TXL
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:45:35 AM EDT
This is great! Because people who are willing to risk prison time and a felony conviction for the manufacture and distribution of methamphetamine will be stopped dead in their tracks by enforcement at the pharmacy counter.

Brilliant!
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:47:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pale_pony:
The funny thing about this is that the meth cooks have already learned to synthesize pseudoeph from MOLASSES of all things...

Yeah, I need some pancake syrup...

In the pharmacy?

You want my ID?




No kidding.

Of course it was going to happen eventually. After all, the drug companies make pseudoephedrine from something.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:48:52 AM EDT
The purchase limits don't bother me as much as the total ban on the real chemical. I and countless other people are alive today because our parents gave us cough medicine. I was sick a lot when I was young. That medicine (Sudafed and Dimatapp) kept me from getting sicker and possibly from dying. The new stuff seems to work well enough, but the jury is still out.

The bottom line remains, as others have pointed out, that we are sacrificing freedom in order to obtain safety. And we all know what Ben Franklin said about that.

Galland
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:51:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SubnetMask:
This is great! Because people who are willing to risk prison time and a felony conviction for the manufacture and distribution of methamphetamine will be stopped dead in their tracks by enforcement at the pharmacy counter.

Brilliant!



Since making meth illegal to posses/make/consume didn't work, lets go after the legal and legit supplies (used by normal people everdya) they use, instead of enforcing exisiting laws!
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:52:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
If you are burning thru 120 pills a month (much less a day) You have issues and better seek a more effective treatment.

My box of Generic Walgreen stuff (compare to Actifed) is a 48 count box with a max dose of 4 per day for not more than 2 weeks.



Except that allergies are passed via genetics. A mother with allergies who has three kids with allergies, taking 2 pills per day, that is a 15 day supply. But the worst part is standing in the loser line with all the lotto purchasers and cigarette purchasers in order to get some damned allergy medicine. Not the end of the world, but a pain in the ass.

They should just lock all the methheads in a big room, give them all the meth they want, and let them kill themselves.



Bingo. Missouri law makes no provision for that. 30 pills in 30 days. Have kids? Tough I guess. Husband need 'em and not with you at the store? Tough?
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:53:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
If you are burning thru 120 pills a month (much less a day) You have issues and better seek a more effective treatment.

My box of Generic Walgreen stuff (compare to Actifed) is a 48 count box with a max dose of 4 per day for not more than 2 weeks.




Its 120 pills a day OR 300 a month.

What else do you want the .gov to tell you how to do?
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:54:12 AM EDT
Allergies should be banned.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 10:01:49 AM EDT
I don't even know what to say, this is a dead horse. The Patriot Act is such an un-American conglomeration of laws that this doesn't shock me at all. They should stick something into it about hi-cap mags and drugs while they're at it, keep all of their wars under one blanket.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 10:06:09 AM EDT
One more reason I despise meth users.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 10:21:06 AM EDT
This is just another classic example...Since we don't have the NADS to punish the wrongdoers and doing nothing is simply unacceptable, we must once again punish the innocent, the law abiding, and make them suffer the consequences. Besides, It's not that big of a deal since "We" don't have sinus problems...

Screw Them!
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 10:25:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 10:26:09 AM EDT by AZ-K9]
Yes, this is a lovely attempt to improve ese Presidente Bush's relationship with Mother Mexico.

Now the MJ, Coke and Meth loads will contain more meth. YAY!
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 10:26:32 AM EDT
Isn't Meth production already illegal?

Why aren't the local PD's coming up with better dealer surveillance and interdiction practices?
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 11:31:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
There are plenty of better alternatives to pseudoephedrine, so I can't say that regulating it more heavily bothers me.



What?

It is the most effective (for the price) I have ever used.





Phenylephrine, aka Sudafed PE. Similar chemical, same effect, can't be used to make meth. Word is psuedoephedrine will be 100% off the market in 5 years.



Penylephrine is dramatically less effective for many people. For instance, my wife, me , my brother, our next door neighbor. All of us have tried it, and it is CRAP compared to pseudoephedrine.

Jim
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 11:38:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
If you are burning thru 120 pills a month (much less a day) You have issues and better seek a more effective treatment.



Imagine an average family of Mom, Dad, and three kids.

Mom and Dad get two pills, four times a day. Two kids over 12 get two pills four times a day, one kid under 12 gets one pill four times a day. Total: 36 pills per day. Average 30 days in a month. Just over 1000 pills per month.

Now, few people actually USE the maximum dose. But why shouldn't someone be able to buy medicine for their family? Why is the government involved in this at all?

God help you if you want to buy a little extra to toss in your gym bag or send to the kid's school nurses.

Jim
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 11:40:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Isn't Meth production already illegal?

Why aren't the local PD's coming up with better dealer surveillance and interdiction practices?



I like your ideas and would like to sign up for your newsletter.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 11:53:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Isn't Meth production already illegal?

Why aren't the local PD's coming up with better dealer surveillance and interdiction practices?



I like your ideas and would like to sign up for your newsletter.



Because all of that drug war money is better spent on black uniforms, masks, submachineguns, tanks, and "CQB" training.

Link Posted: 3/7/2006 11:57:22 AM EDT
More fucking government bueracracy bullshit.

Fuck the war on drugs.

Its a war against the countries own citizens.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 11:59:42 AM EDT
I guess I better stock up before its banned outright.

I will probably get arrested because they will claim I am obvious trying to make meth.
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