Quoted: Quoted: If you want to destroy gun rights in this country the go ahead and see what happens if violent felons get their gun rights back because a large proportion of them will repeat. If you want guarantee even more restrictive gun laws go ahead. Unintended consequences are a bitch. Ha! Right you are! Because we all know that it is soooooooo hard for a felon to get a gun the way things are now. That law isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

That does not have one dame thing to do with my point... it clearly went over your head.

You really don't have the capacity to see what gun control groups will do if felons buy guns legally and then use them to commit crimes. There will be additional restrictions that all of us will be subject to.

God save us from people who cannot grasp the obvious consequences of stupid actions.

Quoted: Not my idea, it's the idea of criminologists who actually study the issue. How much research have you done?

Plenty I lived through the consequences when criminologists screwed up before.

Uh... it was criminologists pushing exactly this kind of coddling horseshit that cause crime rates to skyrocket in the 1960s.



Right, well sorry Mike that doesn't really cut it as research.

Quoted: You really don't have the capacity to see what gun control groups will do if felons buy guns legally and then use them to commit crimes. There will be additional restrictions that all of us will be subject to. God save us from people who cannot grasp the obvious consequences of stupid actions.

No Mike it is you that doesn't seem to grasp the reality. The current laws making firearms a mala prohibita for felons also make them a mala in se in the eyes of the naive public because now firearms are something so evil they have to be restricted. The only way our second amendment rights are ever going to be secure in this country is if they are treated just like any other tool by the law and society with the exception of ownership being protected by the US Constitution. This is what the Bill of Rights intended.

Dpends on crime.

Depends on the offense.

Quoted: Quoted: You really don't have the capacity to see what gun control groups will do if felons buy guns legally and then use them to commit crimes. There will be additional restrictions that all of us will be subject to. God save us from people who cannot grasp the obvious consequences of stupid actions. No Mike it is you that doesn't seem to grasp the reality. The current laws making firearms a mala prohibita for felons also make them a mala in se in the eyes of the naive public because now firearms are something so evil they have to be restricted. The only way our second amendment rights are ever going to be secure in this country is if they are treated just like any other tool by the law and society with the exception of ownership being protected by the US Constitution. This is what the Bill of Rights intended.

How incredibly obtuse… a clue for you… the right to bear arms is protected by the Constitution… the right to bear a cordless drill is not. Treat them like any tool… please list the other constitutionally protected tools.

Firearms should always have a special place in the protections the Constitution recognize. That is what the Founders who wrote the Bill of Rights intended

the pie option is losing for some strange reason.  people want to talk about cons instead of pie, or eating pussy!

Quoted: Quoted: Not my idea, it's the idea of criminologists who actually study the issue. How much research have you done? Plenty I lived through the consequences when criminologists screwed up before. Uh... it was criminologists pushing exactly this kind of coddling horseshit that cause crime rates to skyrocket in the 1960s. Right, well sorry Mike that doesn't really cut it as research.

Even more obtuse...

It was not me that made a claim criminologist believe this it was you the burden of proof is on you. Where is the research you base this on.

First you said criminologist say this, that is not true to begin with... there are PLENTY that take a hard line and say the oppsite.

Second it is for those that do the have to prove it. I cannot prove a negative.

Third there are places where felons can vote so you should be able to show this has impact on the repeat offender rate… show me the numbers.

Quoted: How incredibly obtuse… a clue for you… the right to bear arms is protected by the Constitution… the right to bear a cordless drill is not. Treat them like any tool… please list the other constitutionally protected tools. Firearms should always have a special place in the protections the Constitution recognize.

Comprehend much?

Evidentally not as that is exactly what I said here: " if they are treated just like any other tool by the law and society with the exception of ownership being protected by the US Constitution."

Maybe you don't understand the word "exception"? Help is here

Quoted: It was not me that made a claim criminologist believe this it was you the burden of proof is on you. Where is the research you base this on. First you said criminologist say this, that is not true to begin with... there are PLENTY that take a hard line and say the oppsite. Second it is for those that do the have to prove it. I cannot prove a negative. Third there are places where felons can vote so you should be able to show this has impact on the repeat offender rate… show me the numbers.

I'll give you two to start with: Emile Durkheim and Robert Merton. Then if you want I can give you as much as you can handle. Anomie Theory (Durkheim) and Socially Structured Strain Theory (Merton, based off Durkheim) are everywhere in the world of criminology and sociology, which are inter-related disciplines.

Quoted: Quoted: How incredibly obtuse… a clue for you… the right to bear arms is protected by the Constitution… the right to bear a cordless drill is not. Treat them like any tool… please list the other constitutionally protected tools. Firearms should always have a special place in the protections the Constitution recognize. Comprehend much? Evidentally not as that is exactly what I said here: " if they are treated just like any other tool by the law and society with the exception of ownership being protected by the US Constitution." Maybe you don't understand the word "exception"? Help is here

They can never be treated like any other tool other tools are not equal. Guns are a tool but they are not the same as a hacksaw... if you want to let violent felons buy hacksaws fine... guns no.

We will have to agree to disagree... out.

Quoted: Quoted: It was not me that made a claim criminologist believe this it was you the burden of proof is on you. Where is the research you base this on. First you said criminologist say this, that is not true to begin with... there are PLENTY that take a hard line and say the oppsite. Second it is for those that do the have to prove it. I cannot prove a negative. Third there are places where felons can vote so you should be able to show this has impact on the repeat offender rate… show me the numbers. I'll give you two to start with: Emile Durkheim and Robert Merton. Then if you want I can give you as much as you can handle. Anomie Theory and Socially Structured Strain Theory is everywhere in the world of criminology and sociology, which are inter-related disciplines.

Names are not evidence… and theories are theories. And history is known. We were lead down the garden path by these coddling idiots once before with disastrous effect.

Quoted: They can never be treated like any other tool other tools are not equal. Guns are a tool but they are not the came as a hacksaw... if you want to let violent felons buy hacksaws fine... guns no.

I'm done on this point with you as we fundamentally disagree on the Bill of Rights at the least. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Quoted: Quoted: They can never be treated like any other tool other tools are not equal. Guns are a tool but they are not the came as a hacksaw... if you want to let violent felons buy hacksaws fine... guns no. I'm done on this point with you as we fundamentally disagree on the Bill of Rights at the least. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Agreeded

Quoted: Names are not evidence… and theories are theories. And history is known. We were lead down the garden path by these coddling idiots once before with disastrous effect.

You just make gratuitious assertions without one shred of proof. Cite the disastrous effects  - and what coddling?

The reality is the current system is a failure. All that it has in store for America is more jails filled with more citizens. If you want to blindly support that, have at it. My vote will at least cancel out yours. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one too.

Quoted: Quoted: Names are not evidence… and theories are theories. And history is known. We were lead down the garden path by these coddling idiots once before with disastrous effect. You just make gratuitious assertions without one shred of proof. The reality is the current system is a failure. All that it has in store for America is more jails filled with more citizens crimnals. If you want to blindly support that, have at it. My vote will at least cancel out yours. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one too.

Fixed it...

The assertions is backed up by history… coddle criminals and you get crime… put criminals in jail you get less crime… crime rates are way down over 20 years ago... reason, more criminals in jail.

I am all for more crimnals in jail.

Bye... again.

Depends on the crime. In CA, almost every new law is a felony. Most of these BS AW laws in the state are felonies. I have no problem with people convicted under our stupid gun laws having their records cleared.

We have a system under PC 1203.4 where a person can have their record cleared, which may become popular as more gun laws are passed.

Quoted: Depends on the crime. In CA, almost every new law is a felony. Most of these BS AW laws in the state are felonies.

Most of our weapons laws are wobblers.  The DA will typically file misdemeanor charges on first time offenders.

AR15fan, a member here (ASU1911) was charged with to F6 felonies and faced 18-36 months in prison for a negligent discharge. This was in Arizona.

There are WAY too many felony crimes out there. I support the loss of rights for violent people, but once you start convicting people who made very minor mistakes of felonies, they have little reason to not commit other crimes, and their options for living a law abiding lifestyle are dramatically decreased.

Full restoration of Rights, or don't let them go

As laws become more & more restrictive, it becomes easier to become a felon.
In many cases you can become a felon without trying and with no intent to break any law.

As it is now, there is NO WAY for someone convicted of a felony to re-enter society as a citizen.
- No weapons possession for the rest of their life (cen't defend themselves)
- No voting (in many cases).
- Can't rent most apartments (background check).
- Can't be hired for most good jobs
- in general, they're well & truly f#cked forever!

If you were in this sistuation and wanted desperatly to r-enter society, how would you do it?

We are creatng a class of peole who are legally f#cked for the rest of their lives. It is easy to imagine why the recidivism rate is so high - there is no redemption for being good!

Once a person pays the debt to society and to those they injured, lets get our boot off their neck and let them live!

Of course, this means that there will be *some* violent people who get recycled back into society that REALLY should not be there. If we all took personal responsibility for our own protection (training, CCW, etc.), then this problem would be self-correcting, and very quickly! Also, if they are a clear danger to society, then they should not be set free!

I think they should have to apply for restoring their rights.  Voting should be automatically restored upon request.  Firearms rights should be by application and approval.  There are people who have served two sentences for weapons related crimes so you have to be realistic.  Being able to run for public office should be by application also.

We already know there are some crimes where it's impossible to really "pay".  Child molestation, for instance.  I would be hesitant to let anyone from Enron's felonious management run for public office and gang-bangers who murder wouldn't be likely to get firearms rights back real quickly (although, for self-defense they would have a better argument than most.)

I'm sure theres been good points made in this thread, but I'll answer directly.

Quoted: Say a guy is picked up for a felony in his early 20's.  He does his time on good behavior and is released on probation.  He does his probation without a hitch, and is now a 100% free man.

Ya know, it only takes one stupid mistake, and one shitty-day havin' judge, to find yourself in jail.

When you consider questions like this, try to imagine yourself in the ex-con's shoes. How would you feel if, maybe you did a really incredibly stupid thing and now... you can't get a job to earn money, so chances of staying away from crime are decreasing rapidly.

If you're a habitual offender then I've got little mercy, some people are just idiots.

No, the guy who did time for getting caught with an ounce of reefer isn't a criminal to begin with really. He did'nt hurt anyone, or steal anything. Theres many circumstances involved, and I'm not calling all criminals victims, but I also don't have any faith in our "system" neither... the majority of "bad" guys walk away free on a daily basis.

But some people get caught wrong place wrong time, some people truly made a one time bad judgement, some people fall under bad influences... it's a big judgement call, and the real truth is, you are'nt the judge... none of us are without sin and as such, we're hardly in a position to cast any stones.

You would have to decide in your heart on this. Are you uncomfortable around the guy? Do you feel threatened? Is he qualified for the job overall? If you think you can work with him, well I say, give the man a fair chance to prove himself and better his life. You would likely be a better man for doing so... and in all fairness, everyone deserves a chance.

Quoted: If you want to destroy gun rights in this country the go ahead and see what happens if violent felons get their gun rights back because a large proportion of them will repeat. If you want guarantee even more restrictive gun laws go ahead. Unintended consequences are a bitch.

Why would violent felons be released from prison to begin with?