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Posted: 3/5/2006 8:43:53 PM EDT
Via Instapundit

ABORTION BILLS ARE BUSTING OUT ALL OVER: With legislation in South Dakota, and, according to this report, Missouri, Ohio, Indiana, Georgia, Tennessee, Mississippi, South Carolina and Kentucky, the issue is heating up. I can't decide if that's good or bad.

Bad: I'm against these bills. I don't think abortion ought to be illegal. I think that outlawing abortion (not "late term" or "partial-birth" abortion, which is a relatively minor issue except for its symbolism, and which could be regulated under Roe anyway, but abortion in general) is a bad idea. While it's possible that such laws would reduce the number of abortions, I suspect that there would be substantial black markets, noncompliance, civil disobedience, and other side effects -- something not as far-reaching, perhaps, but in many ways like the destructive consequences of banning guns. One advantage -- you can go to another state to have an abortion, but you can't legally go to another state to buy a gun. That may cut down on the black-market angle, unless a lot of states enact bans, which I doubt. As the South Dakota story above notes, that's nearly the situation in some states already, on a de facto basis.

Good: On the other hand, I think the abortion issue is "stuck," and would probably have reached a better, or at least less painful, resolution via legislative processes if Roe v. Wade hadn't shunted the issue aside. That resolution would probably look more like what we see in Europe -- abortion available, but less freely than in the U.S. -- and the political pathology associated with abortion polarization would have been avoided. I also suspect that the absolutist slogans on both sides today come from the "stuckness" created by Roe. That sort of thing is easy when the sloganeers know there's no real chance of their slogans being enacted into law in a fashion that would require them to take responsibility. The democratic process might well discharge the tensions built up over the past three-plus decades.

Horserace point: I'm pretty sure that this development will actually be bad for the Republicans. When the topic is defense, the Democrats lose. When it's sex, the Republicans lose. And the abortion debate will, I think, turn into a sex debate before it's over. (I suspect that Missouri Governor Matt Blunt agrees -- but pro-choicers may not benefit from a major public debate either).

Advice for the GOP: Try to convince the media that you want to see American abortion law look "more European."

Advice for the Democrats: Don't act like you're ashamed of abortion. Don't talk about a "woman's right to choose" without saying what she's choosing. You can't win on a policy you're ashamed of.

Of course, maybe I'm just "pro-death" like Scott Adams, which would probably make taking my advice a terrible mistake. I mean, more than usual. . . .

UPDATE: Stephen Waters writes: "The real issue isn't abortion, but how do you take care of unwanted children." This is actually one place where I'll give the pro-lifers credit. Back when I did pro-choice stuff in college, I challenged them to support, rather than condemn, unwed mothers, and I think they're actually much better about that. Indeed, I know of several teen moms (one who used to live right across the street from me) who were treated quite supportively by very conservative religious folks who saw that as part of their pro-life duty.

Of course, one reason they honor the choice to have a child rather than an abortion may be because it is a choice.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:46:59 PM EDT
Let'm focus their time and efforts on the abortion. Takes the heat off gun grabbing, at least for a while.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:47:27 PM EDT
I dont think the government should be telling women whether or not they should or can get abortions. The less the governement is involved in people's lives the better. That said, would I get an abortion? No. But at the same time, if they start making abortions illigal, pretty soon it will be ok for them to limit how many kids we can have (like china does) if it starts with banning abortion, where does it end??
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:49:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:49:11 PM EDT
and let's see how many people ignore the constitutional issue and get caught up in their emotions...
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:49:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:
and let's see how many people ignore the constitutional issue and get caught up in their emotions...



If you could link to where the Constitution states "Abortions are prohibited" I'd appreciate it.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:50:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ridingcowgirl23:
I dont think the government should be telling women whether or not they should or can get abortions. The less the governement is involved in people's lives the better. That said, would I get an abortion? No. But at the same time, if they start making abortions illigal, pretty soon it will be ok for them to limit how many kids we can have (like china does) if it starts with banning abortion, where does it end??



Im in the same boat as you. I think its bad but I dont like anyone telling me what I can and cant do with my body. Well Im a guy so I cant have a abortion but you get my point. With that being said, Id rather have this issue be up to the states themselves. Let each state decide whether they will allow it. That is that the 10th amendmant was about. On that note, I would still like too see late term abortions banned. Basically, once the fetus can live outside the mother, your out of luck.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:54:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ridingcowgirl23:
The less the governement is involved in people's lives the better.


I agree, but the most fundamental function of government is to ensure the life and liberty of its citizens. This applies to those young and old.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:55:09 PM EDT
Here is where a quandry is going to erupt --Roe V. Wade is a privacy rights case --not really an abortion legal/illegal case IE the court did not address the legal status of an abortion just told the state they couldnt ask and the dr. couldnt tell. since aside form the medical Dr. / confidentiality issue and we have already gone further than that with the TX sodomy case (as far as privacy goes ) and the fact that courts dont like to overturn themselves (despite a new makeup) it is doubtful that Roe may come up agian. A new case involving the legal status of abortion MAY come before the court sometime soon but I dont see Roe being re-visited.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:58:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ridingcowgirl23:
I dont think the government should be telling women whether or not they should or can get abortions. The less the governement is involved in people's lives the better. That said, would I get an abortion? No. But at the same time, if they start making abortions illigal, pretty soon it will be ok for them to limit how many kids we can have (like china does) if it starts with banning abortion, where does it end??



I pretty much exactly agree with you.

Abortions are something local polities have to determine.

The bad thing about Roe v Wade is that reasoning was so unbelievably shoddy that wouldn't hold up to the slightest reasoning.

Which made the appointment of rational faithful to the Constitution so dangerous and unacceptable to the liberals.

And now since the sane have ultimate power, we're seeinf all the suits to leave the abortion issue up to state polities, as it should be.

I personally hate abortion. but think it should be available to the individual, and they can address their decision with god. But, let's discuss things we have power over, like the law.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:58:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 9:04:56 PM EDT by bastiat]

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By bastiat:
and let's see how many people ignore the constitutional issue and get caught up in their emotions...



If you could link to where the Constitution states "Abortions are prohibited" I'd appreciate it.



Rule #1 of making a 'clever' remark: Make sure you know what you're talking about first.

The constitution doesn't state "abortions are prohibited", and it doesn't give the federal government the power to overturn state abortion laws, either.

In case you haven't been paying attention, that's why the conservatives were upset with Roe V Wade: Not just because it 'legalized abortion', but because it pissed on the 10th amendment.

The proper legal position is to return it to the way it was before that horrible decision: Let the states decide their own abortion policy.

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:04:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By bastiat:
and let's see how many people ignore the constitutional issue and get caught up in their emotions...



If you could link to where the Constitution states "Abortions are prohibited" I'd appreciate it.



Rule #1 of making a 'clever' remark: Make sure you know what you're talking about first.

The constitution doesn't state "abortions are prohibited", and it doesn't give the federal government to overturn state abortion laws, either.

In case you haven't been paying attention, that's why the conservatives were upset with Roe V Wade: Not just because it 'legalized abortion', but because it pissed on the 10th amendment.

The proper legal position is to return it to the way it was before that horrible decision: Let the states decide their own abortion policy.




On one hand, your correct. It should be a State issue and not a Federal issue. On another point, your completely wrong. Conservatives want it banned, period. They dont care whether its done at the State or Federal level.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:06:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
If you could link to where the Constitution states "Abortions are prohibited" I'd appreciate it.



Find the part of the Constitution that says drugs are prohibited.... armed robberies are prohibited...... and so on.........

The Constitution does not list criminal laws but rules of government and rights. Sorry, but you argument doesn't hold water.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:07:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By bastiat:
and let's see how many people ignore the constitutional issue and get caught up in their emotions...



If you could link to where the Constitution states "Abortions are prohibited" I'd appreciate it.



Rule #1 of making a 'clever' remark: Make sure you know what you're talking about first.

The constitution doesn't state "abortions are prohibited", and it doesn't give the federal government to overturn state abortion laws, either.

In case you haven't been paying attention, that's why the conservatives were upset with Roe V Wade: Not just because it 'legalized abortion', but because it pissed on the 10th amendment.

The proper legal position is to return it to the way it was before that horrible decision: Let the states decide their own abortion policy.




On one hand, your correct. It should be a State issue and not a Federal issue. On another point, your completely wrong. Conservatives want it banned, period. They dont care whether its done at the State or Federal level.



I didn't say whether they wanted it banned. I stated their position on the ruling of Roe V Wade. So I don't see how you can declare me "wrong" when I didn't state what they wanted either way.

And most conservatives, if they wanted to ban abortion on a federal level, would prefer to do it in a way that doesn't piss on the constitution - meaning it would have to be an amendment of its own in order to give the government that power.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:09:02 PM EDT
I have to assume the above 2 posters have not engaged in any previous abortion topics on Arfcom.
Trust me, this is not a issue with pissing on States Rights. Its an issue of Conservatives wanting abortions banned. Your not argueing with me, your argueing with your own party.

Do a search and read some of the other threads on the subject.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:10:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 9:10:25 PM EDT by bastiat]

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I have to assume the above 2 posters have not engaged in any previous abortion topics on Arfcom.
Trust me, this is not a issue with pissing on States Rights. Its an issue of Conservatives wanting abortions banned. Your not argueing with me, your argueing with your own party.

Do a search and read some of the other threads on the subject.



So is that an apology for trying to put words in my mouth and declaring them 'wrong'???
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:15:03 PM EDT
If the Republican politicos force the abortion issue you will not see a Repuvlican majority for a looooong time!
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:16:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 9:19:29 PM EDT by Hipster]

Originally Posted By bastiat:

And most conservatives, if they wanted to ban abortion on a federal level, would prefer to do it in a way that doesn't piss on the constitution - meaning it would have to be an amendment of its own in order to give the government that power.



I agree. One of the main reasons why Roe v. Wade has become a hot potato in politics is because it was an unconstitutional law handed down by the US Supreme Court.

Roe v. Wade should be tossed out and the states should decide individually whether they want to make abortions legal or illegal. The people of the individual states should make those decisions, not 9 robed guys (and gals) in Washington.


Edited because I don't know the difference between 9 & 12.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:16:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 9:19:09 PM EDT by raven]

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By bastiat:
and let's see how many people ignore the constitutional issue and get caught up in their emotions...



If you could link to where the Constitution states "Abortions are prohibited" I'd appreciate it.



Rule #1 of making a 'clever' remark: Make sure you know what you're talking about first.

The constitution doesn't state "abortions are prohibited", and it doesn't give the federal government to overturn state abortion laws, either.

In case you haven't been paying attention, that's why the conservatives were upset with Roe V Wade: Not just because it 'legalized abortion', but because it pissed on the 10th amendment.

The proper legal position is to return it to the way it was before that horrible decision: Let the states decide their own abortion policy.




On one hand, your correct. It should be a State issue and not a Federal issue. On another point, your completely wrong. Conservatives want it banned, period. They dont care whether its done at the State or Federal level.



I'm conservative, and I dont want it outlawed as a matter of course. I want any outcome to be decided legally, democratically, not by 9 a-aholes.

The Democrats are scared shitless on this issue because they know full well how normal think about abortion.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:18:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Horik:
If the Republican politicos force the abortion issue you will not see a Repuvlican majority for a looooong time!



Uh, it ain't an abortion issue. It's a constitutional one.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:21:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I have to assume the above 2 posters have not engaged in any previous abortion topics on Arfcom.
Trust me, this is not a issue with pissing on States Rights. Its an issue of Conservatives wanting abortions banned. Your not argueing with me, your argueing with your own party.

Do a search and read some of the other threads on the subject.



So is that an apology for trying to put words in my mouth and declaring them 'wrong'???



Nope.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:23:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hipster:

Originally Posted By Horik:
If the Republican politicos force the abortion issue you will not see a Repuvlican majority for a looooong time!



Uh, it ain't an abortion issue. It's a constitutional one.



You'll have to try and convince someone else of that.

I'm Republican, are you trying to tell me it's not about abortion? At all? Please!
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:25:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hipster:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

And most conservatives, if they wanted to ban abortion on a federal level, would prefer to do it in a way that doesn't piss on the constitution - meaning it would have to be an amendment of its own in order to give the government that power.



I agree. One of the main reasons why Roe v. Wade has become a hot potato in politics is because it was an unconstitutional law handed down by the US Supreme Court.

Roe v. Wade should be tossed out and the states should decide individually whether they want to make abortions legal or illegal. The people of the individual states should make those decisions, not 12 robed guys (and gals) in Washington.




When I hear Rush, who is basically the leader of the conservative movement in this country talk about abortion, I've only heard him take on the legal ramifications of Roe V Wade, and correct the misconception that abortion would automatically be illegal everywhere if Roe V Wade was overturned.

Since Roe V Wade is the focus of it all, the discussions pretty much revolve around it and how it was a bad constitutional decision.

When I see conservatives talk about Abortion on sites like free republic, they talk about overturning R v W on the same basis.

Last year when the constitution party candidate said he'd sign an executive order outlawing abortion, he was ridiculed on free republic because just about everybody there realized there was no authority granted to the feds to do that.

So to the liberals out there: Maybe conservatives do want to do away with abortion. But they want to do it in a way that is in accordance with the constitution. You have the same right to make it legal (properly legal,not some contrived decision) under the constitution as well. So stop bitching about it.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:26:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hipster:

Originally Posted By Horik:
If the Republican politicos force the abortion issue you will not see a Repuvlican majority for a looooong time!



Uh, it ain't an abortion issue. It's a constitutional one.



Be honest. Unless you're weird like me, the main interest in any of this is abortion.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:27:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I have to assume the above 2 posters have not engaged in any previous abortion topics on Arfcom.
Trust me, this is not a issue with pissing on States Rights. Its an issue of Conservatives wanting abortions banned. Your not argueing with me, your argueing with your own party.

Do a search and read some of the other threads on the subject.



So is that an apology for trying to put words in my mouth and declaring them 'wrong'???



Nope.



Don't worry. Your public display of ignorance was reward enough. Revealing your lack of character to apologize for falsely putting words in my mouth is just icing on the cake.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:27:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By Hipster:

Originally Posted By Horik:
If the Republican politicos force the abortion issue you will not see a Repuvlican majority for a looooong time!



Uh, it ain't an abortion issue. It's a constitutional one.



Be honest. Unless you're weird like me, the main interest in any of this is abortion.



Hey, I'm weird like you, too.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:27:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 9:31:10 PM EDT by thedoctors308]

Originally Posted By ridingcowgirl23:
I dont think the government should be telling women whether or not they should or can get abortions. The less the governement is involved in people's lives the better. That said, would I get an abortion? No. But at the same time, if they start making abortions illigal, pretty soon it will be ok for them to limit how many kids we can have (like china does) if it starts with banning abortion, where does it end??



Roe v. Wade needs to be overturned.
Want abortion legal?
Get it passed by the legislature.
But having laws handed down from the Nazgul sickens me to my very stomach.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:28:06 PM EDT
Actually it will be interesting to see, forcing the abortion issue IS a winning direction to go in the midwest and south.

COuld probably built a platform on it and still win the presidency and the senate, might loose the house though.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:30:59 PM EDT
The next abortion may be on the child that grows up to be a scientist who discovers the cure for all Cancer. Think we should kill Her/Him?
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:33:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:33:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I have to assume the above 2 posters have not engaged in any previous abortion topics on Arfcom.
Trust me, this is not a issue with pissing on States Rights. Its an issue of Conservatives wanting abortions banned. Your not argueing with me, your argueing with your own party.

Do a search and read some of the other threads on the subject.



So is that an apology for trying to put words in my mouth and declaring them 'wrong'???



Nope.



Don't worry. Your public display of ignorance was reward enough. Revealing your lack of character to apologize for falsely putting words in my mouth is just icing on the cake.


Indeed.
Too bad your complete ignorance on the issue is apparent. "Its not an abortion issue, its a Constitution issue"
Sure, whatever there Spaceboy. Keep pouring the Fool Aid, maybe someone will drink it and walk around in a fantasy world with you.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:35:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By johnthreesixteen:
The next abortion may be on the child that grows up to be a scientist who discovers the cure for all Cancer. Think we should kill Her/Him?

I'm waiting for an answer.........
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:40:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By johnthreesixteen:

Originally Posted By johnthreesixteen:
The next abortion may be on the child that grows up to be a scientist who discovers the cure for all Cancer. Think we should kill Her/Him?

I'm waiting for an answer.........

Still waiting............
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:43:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By johnthreesixteen:

Originally Posted By johnthreesixteen:

Originally Posted By johnthreesixteen:
The next abortion may be on the child that grows up to be a scientist who discovers the cure for all Cancer. Think we should kill Her/Him?

I'm waiting for an answer.........

Still waiting............

I'll take that as a big .... NO..........
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:44:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By Hipster:

Originally Posted By Horik:
If the Republican politicos force the abortion issue you will not see a Repuvlican majority for a looooong time!



Uh, it ain't an abortion issue. It's a constitutional one.



Be honest. Unless you're weird like me, the main interest in any of this is abortion.



With me, it's entirely constitutional. Let the voters of the individual states decide abortion laws. If I don't like the laws in my state, I can either work within the legislative process to change those laws or move to a state that better fits my preferences.

The Supremes aren't supposed to decide matters based on "how they feel" about the topic. They're supposed to decide on the matter of law. I don't expect them to make decisions to please my personal tastes either.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:46:32 PM EDT
''President Clinton, What about that abortion bill?"


"I paid that last Tuesday."
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:48:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hipster:

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By Hipster:

Originally Posted By Horik:
If the Republican politicos force the abortion issue you will not see a Repuvlican majority for a looooong time!



Uh, it ain't an abortion issue. It's a constitutional one.



Be honest. Unless you're weird like me, the main interest in any of this is abortion.



With me, it's entirely constitutional. Let the voters of the individual states decide abortion laws. If I don't like the laws in my state, I can either work within the legislative process to change those laws or move to a state that better fits my preferences.

The Supremes aren't supposed to decide matters based on "how they feel" about the topic. They're supposed to decide on the matter of law. I don't expect them to make decisions to please my personal tastes either.



I got you wrong then, hipster, and I an glad I did.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:50:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hipster:

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By Hipster:

Originally Posted By Horik:
If the Republican politicos force the abortion issue you will not see a Repuvlican majority for a looooong time!



Uh, it ain't an abortion issue. It's a constitutional one.



Be honest. Unless you're weird like me, the main interest in any of this is abortion.



With me, it's entirely constitutional. Let the voters of the individual states decide abortion laws. If I don't like the laws in my state, I can either work within the legislative process to change those laws or move to a state that better fits my preferences.

The Supremes aren't supposed to decide matters based on "how they feel" about the topic. They're supposed to decide on the matter of law. I don't expect them to make decisions to please my personal tastes either.

Is murder of a unborn child,Who's heart is beating, have any say in the matter? Abortion is a horrible thing. I worked in a Pathology lab for years and saw the specimens come in. I saw a little child in a Jar. I could see it's hands and fingers. it even had finger nails. It was called "Parts of conception" If you ever saw what I saw you would have a whole different outlook on the abortion issue. It is murder, period.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 10:00:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By johnthreesixteen:

Originally Posted By Hipster:

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By Hipster:

Originally Posted By Horik:
If the Republican politicos force the abortion issue you will not see a Repuvlican majority for a looooong time!



Uh, it ain't an abortion issue. It's a constitutional one.



Be honest. Unless you're weird like me, the main interest in any of this is abortion.



With me, it's entirely constitutional. Let the voters of the individual states decide abortion laws. If I don't like the laws in my state, I can either work within the legislative process to change those laws or move to a state that better fits my preferences.

The Supremes aren't supposed to decide matters based on "how they feel" about the topic. They're supposed to decide on the matter of law. I don't expect them to make decisions to please my personal tastes either.

Is murder of a unborn child,Who's heart is beating, have any say in the matter? Abortion is a horrible thing. I worked in a Pathology lab for years and saw the specimens come in. I saw a little child in a Jar. I could see it's hands and fingers. it even had finger nails. It was called "Parts of conception" If you ever saw what I saw you would have a whole different outlook on the abortion issue. It is murder, period.



+1
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 10:01:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By Hipster:

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By Hipster:

Originally Posted By Horik:
If the Republican politicos force the abortion issue you will not see a Repuvlican majority for a looooong time!

bump

Uh, it ain't an abortion issue. It's a constitutional one.



Be honest. Unless you're weird like me, the main interest in any of this is abortion.



With me, it's entirely constitutional. Let the voters of the individual states decide abortion laws. If I don't like the laws in my state, I can either work within the legislative process to change those laws or move to a state that better fits my preferences.

The Supremes aren't supposed to decide matters based on "how they feel" about the topic. They're supposed to decide on the matter of law. I don't expect them to make decisions to please my personal tastes either.



I got you wrong then, hipster, and I an glad I did.

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 10:13:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 10:16:10 PM EDT by Belloc]

Originally Posted By ridingcowgirl23:
I dont think the government should be telling women whether or not they should or can get abortions. The less the governement is involved in people's lives the better. That said, would I get an abortion? No. But at the same time, if they start making abortions illigal, pretty soon it will be ok for them to limit how many kids we can have (like china does) if it starts with banning abortion, where does it end??




"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these is life."


So the Founders believed that there exists a right to life from the moment we are created.
Isn't that just like them.


How Tyranny Came to America
by Joseph Sobran

"Take abortion. Set aside your own views and feelings about it. Is it really possible that, as the Supreme Court in effect said, all the abortion laws of all 50 states — no matter how restrictive, no matter how permissive — had always been unconstitutional? Not only that, but no previous Court, no justice on any Court in all our history — not Marshall, not Story, not Taney, not Holmes, not Hughes, not Frankfurter, not even Warren — had ever been recorded as doubting the constitutionality of those laws. Everyone had always taken it for granted that the states had every right to enact them.

Are we supposed to believe, in all seriousness, that the Court’s ruling in Roe v. Wade was a response to the text of the Constitution, the discernment of a meaning that had eluded all its predecessors, rather than an enactment of the current liberal agenda? Come now.

...It gets crazier. In 1993 the Court handed down one of the most bizarre decisions of all time. For two decades, enemies of legal abortion had been supporting Republican candidates in the hope of filling the Court with appointees who would review Roe v. Wade. In Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the Court finally did so. But even with eight Republican appointees on the Court, the result was not what the conservatives had hoped for. The Court reaffirmed Roe.

Its reasoning was amazing. A plurality opinion — a majority of the five-justice majority in the case — admitted that the Court’s previous ruling in Roe might be logically and historically vulnerable. But it held that the paramount consideration was that the Court be consistent, and not appear to be yielding to public pressure, lest it lose the respect of the public. Therefore the Court allowed Roe to stand.

Among many things that might be said about this ruling, the most basic is this: The Court in effect declared itself a third party to the controversy, and then, setting aside the merits of the two principals’ claims, ruled in its own interest! It was as if the referee in a prizefight had declared himself the winner. Cynics had always suspected that the Court did not forget its self-interest in its decisions, but they never expected to hear it say so.

The three justices who signed that opinion evidently didn’t realize what they were saying. A distinguished veteran Court-watcher (who approved of Roe, by the way) told me he had never seen anything like it. The Court was actually telling us that it put its own welfare ahead of the merits of the arguments before it. In its confusion, it was blurting out the truth.

But by then very few Americans could even remember the original constitutional plan. The original plan was as Madison and Tocqueville described it: State government was to be the rule, federal government the exception. The states’ powers were to be “numerous and indefinite,” federal powers “few and defined.” This is a matter not only of history, but of iron logic: the Constitution doesn’t make sense when read any other way. As Madison asked, why bother listing particular federal powers unless unlisted powers are withheld?

_________________________________________________

Some points that should be remembered.
1. It was the Communists and Nazis that were at the vanguard of removing the right to life of the unborn.
2. The Nazis, Communists, and Democrats are all pro-abortion and pro-gun confiscation. A coincidence? Not hardly.
3. The founder of Planned Parenthood was a racist Nazi sympathizer who wanted to eliminate all people of color.
4. At no time in history has anything been called a human being by medical science that was not in fact a human being.
Blacks, Jews, etc, all were at one time regarded by some as not human while others fought this nonsense. Today many in the medical community hold the scientifically tenable position that our lives, our humanity, begins when we do. And all of us were conceived. Once YOU were conceived, THAT was you.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 10:18:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By johnthreesixteen:
If you ever saw what I saw you would have a whole different outlook on the abortion issue. It is murder, period.



Under the current Roe v. Wade decision, you have no say in what government decides about abortion.
If Roe is overturned, then you will be able to work within the system to influence the laws in your state.

The Supreme Court isn't supposed to decide if abortion is good or bad. It is supposed to decide whether the federal or state governments should have the authority to make the laws concerning abortion. Then, those decisions rest in the hands of we the people.

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 10:23:49 PM EDT
Lemme tell you guys something, right here right now. The Day Roe V. Wade gets overturned i'm gonna plow all my extra money into gun show (no paper trail) "wicked evil assault weapons." Why? Has the revolution started? Nope. But take my word for it. Women are a sleeping giant, LET THEM SLEEP! Ever wake up a woman from a fast sleep by pouring water on her? That is what will happen. So what will the blowback be? Well basically every person who is pro-life will be kicked out of office and be replaced by nanny state liberals who will promise women they will pass laws reallowing abortion. Then once they are finished with that they will turn to Guns. (basically punish the conserveative white male for fucking with their shit.) We who live in Blue states will have it even worse. We'll have to "turn'em in Mr & Ms. America". lemme ask you pro-life idiots something, Do you really think that the majority of people in the US want abortion banned? Your dead wrong. And you seem to forget one thing. Only 50% of the population votes. The other 50% is too apathetic to bother. Why? cause they dont have a reason to vote. If you do this, YOU"LL GIVE THEM A REASON!!!!!!! Then you people will feel as stupid as the Dems in '94 when they got hit with a pillow in the dark! They did'nt see that going after guns was causing people to get motivated so in 1994 they got swept out of power. The same thing will happen if you outlaw abortion. I dont feel like giving up my guns because of another issue i dont give two shits about.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 7:15:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I have to assume the above 2 posters have not engaged in any previous abortion topics on Arfcom.
Trust me, this is not a issue with pissing on States Rights. Its an issue of Conservatives wanting abortions banned. Your not argueing with me, your argueing with your own party.

Do a search and read some of the other threads on the subject.



So is that an apology for trying to put words in my mouth and declaring them 'wrong'???



Nope.



Don't worry. Your public display of ignorance was reward enough. Revealing your lack of character to apologize for falsely putting words in my mouth is just icing on the cake.


Indeed.
Too bad your complete ignorance on the issue is apparent. "Its not an abortion issue, its a Constitution issue"
Sure, whatever there Spaceboy. Keep pouring the Fool Aid, maybe someone will drink it and walk around in a fantasy world with you.



And you reveal yourself further.

Link Posted: 3/6/2006 7:20:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I have to assume the above 2 posters have not engaged in any previous abortion topics on Arfcom.
Trust me, this is not a issue with pissing on States Rights. Its an issue of Conservatives wanting abortions banned. Your not argueing with me, your argueing with your own party.

Do a search and read some of the other threads on the subject.





...I want abortion banned
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 7:28:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
Lemme tell you guys something, right here right now. The Day Roe V. Wade gets overturned i'm gonna plow all my extra money into gun show (no paper trail) "wicked evil assault weapons." Why? Has the revolution started? Nope. But take my word for it. Women are a sleeping giant, LET THEM SLEEP! Ever wake up a woman from a fast sleep by pouring water on her? That is what will happen. So what will the blowback be? Well basically every person who is pro-life will be kicked out of office and be replaced by nanny state liberals who will promise women they will pass laws reallowing abortion. Then once they are finished with that they will turn to Guns. (basically punish the conserveative white male for fucking with their shit.) We who live in Blue states will have it even worse. We'll have to "turn'em in Mr & Ms. America". lemme ask you pro-life idiots something, Do you really think that the majority of people in the US want abortion banned? Your dead wrong. And you seem to forget one thing. Only 50% of the population votes. The other 50% is too apathetic to bother. Why? cause they dont have a reason to vote. If you do this, YOU"LL GIVE THEM A REASON!!!!!!! Then you people will feel as stupid as the Dems in '94 when they got hit with a pillow in the dark! They did'nt see that going after guns was causing people to get motivated so in 1994 they got swept out of power. The same thing will happen if you outlaw abortion. I dont feel like giving up my guns because of another issue i dont give two shits about.



"lemme ask you pro-life idiots something.." t-stox
Lemme tell you something idiot-get your terminology straight. Anti-abortion people are not "pro-life." Most anti abortion folks I know believe in the death penalty. I'm not "pro-life" I'm anti-abortion.....got it?
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 7:31:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ridingcowgirl23:
I dont think the government should be telling women whether or not they should or can get abortions. The less the governement is involved in people's lives the better. That said, would I get an abortion? No. But at the same time, if they start making abortions illigal, pretty soon it will be ok for them to limit how many kids we can have (like china does) if it starts with banning abortion, where does it end??



When you think you have a right to kill your own child it IS the government's job. It is one of the few things the government is SUPPOSED to be concerned with. The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of property, the right to life is foremost.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 7:33:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
Lemme tell you guys something, right here right now. The Day Roe V. Wade gets overturned i'm gonna plow all my extra money into gun show (no paper trail) "wicked evil assault weapons." Why? Has the revolution started? Nope. But take my word for it. Women are a sleeping giant, LET THEM SLEEP! Ever wake up a woman from a fast sleep by pouring water on her? That is what will happen. So what will the blowback be? Well basically every person who is pro-life will be kicked out of office and be replaced by nanny state liberals who will promise women they will pass laws reallowing abortion. Then once they are finished with that they will turn to Guns. (basically punish the conserveative white male for fucking with their shit.) We who live in Blue states will have it even worse. We'll have to "turn'em in Mr & Ms. America". lemme ask you pro-life idiots something, Do you really think that the majority of people in the US want abortion banned? Your dead wrong. And you seem to forget one thing. Only 50% of the population votes. The other 50% is too apathetic to bother. Why? cause they dont have a reason to vote. If you do this, YOU"LL GIVE THEM A REASON!!!!!!! Then you people will feel as stupid as the Dems in '94 when they got hit with a pillow in the dark! They did'nt see that going after guns was causing people to get motivated so in 1994 they got swept out of power. The same thing will happen if you outlaw abortion. I dont feel like giving up my guns because of another issue i dont give two shits about.



Thank you, chicken little.

But I sincerely doubt there will be a massive political backlash from an overturn of Roe V. Wade and the decisions on abortion being left to the state level.

Your little scenario is rediculous.

Link Posted: 3/6/2006 7:34:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 7:37:17 AM EDT by dolanp]

Originally Posted By johnthreesixteen:

Originally Posted By johnthreesixteen:

Originally Posted By johnthreesixteen:

Originally Posted By johnthreesixteen:
The next abortion may be on the child that grows up to be a scientist who discovers the cure for all Cancer. Think we should kill Her/Him?

I'm waiting for an answer.........

Still waiting............

I'll take that as a big .... NO..........



Tired argument really. Could be the next Hitler too. Oh if only your Dad had used a condom you wouldn't be here, maybe those should be banned too.

If Freakonomics is to be believed, the banning of abortions will reverse the several-decade decrease in crime that we have enjoyed since then.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 7:34:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I have to assume the above 2 posters have not engaged in any previous abortion topics on Arfcom.
Trust me, this is not a issue with pissing on States Rights. Its an issue of Conservatives wanting abortions banned. Your not argueing with me, your argueing with your own party.

Do a search and read some of the other threads on the subject.



We have had debates on abortion before?! Ha! Next you'll be telling me we have debated creation/evolution on Arfcom!
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 7:35:56 AM EDT
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