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Posted: 3/4/2006 3:20:42 PM EDT
Link to story


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon has directed the U.S. Army to launch a criminal investigation into whether the friendly fire death of Army Ranger and former professional football star Pat Tillman in Afghanistan in 2004 was a homicide, the Army said on Saturday.


This is unbelievable, and I hope it is not so.

I am sure there will be more.

USA Today story




Link Posted: 3/4/2006 3:21:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 3:22:06 PM EDT by ConservativeRifleman]
first dupe.

eta: not to rag on Tillman though
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 3:23:24 PM EDT
dupe
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=442897
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 3:25:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 3:29:17 PM EDT by redfisher]
i searched Tillman

what else can a guy do?

f*ing GD Forum...


edit: OH!!!! I just put it together

I should have known to mis-spell Tillman in my search!
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 3:42:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:
i searched Tillman

what else can a guy do?

f*ing GD Forum...


edit: OH!!!! I just put it together

I should have known to mis-spell Tillman in my search!



You gotta love the dupe idiots that call it without providing a link though- real chickenshits.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 12:57:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 12:58:31 PM EDT by redfisher]
Its chronic, MonkTx. and although I can shrug it off, I thought the memory of Cpl. Tillman warranted some discussion - which is why I wanted to share it. I did search first knowing it was a big story, but the original post spelled Tillman with one L.

These days, a thread will not stay on the first 2 pages of GD for more than 20 minutes without a reply.
Oh well.


To the story:

What is criminal about his death? Is someone suggesting he was killed on purpose? Or perhaps gross negligence involved (drinking, an AD, goofing off or something?)?

Homicide in a war zone is an incredible charge and must have some serious screw up to apply.

It would be a shame for anyone to fall to fratricide, but a man who set aside the trappings that most countries see us as being our only drive in life - is doubly so.

I hope it isn't so.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 12:58:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MonkTx:

Originally Posted By redfisher:
i searched Tillman

what else can a guy do?

f*ing GD Forum...


edit: OH!!!! I just put it together

I should have known to mis-spell Tillman in my search!



You gotta love the dupe idiots that call it without providing a link though- real chickenshits.




Ok.


Link Posted: 3/5/2006 1:01:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:

Originally Posted By MonkTx:

Originally Posted By redfisher:
i searched Tillman

what else can a guy do?

f*ing GD Forum...


edit: OH!!!! I just put it together

I should have known to mis-spell Tillman in my search!



You gotta love the dupe idiots that call it without providing a link though- real chickenshits.



Ok.





XDBACKUPGUN:

your post personifies the point.

This thread is about Cpl Tillman, not anyone taking offense to criticism. I'd like to hear peoples thoughts on the developments.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 12:10:49 AM EDT
Article by Jay Bookman in my local paper.

"The truth though,was that Tillman had been killed by three bullets to the forehead fired by American soldiers in a friendly fire accident, Army officials knew it immediately." "Officers on the scene knew it,which may be why they ordered Tillman's body armor and uniform burned." (??)

On April 30, the Army posthumously awarded Tillman the Silver Star for bravery,stating that he died in a heroic charge up an enemy held hill."
_____________________________________________

Seems like LtGen John Abizaid the cause of death, but lied to cover the Armys' ass. The officers who drafted the false Silver Star citation knew it too.

Also, looks like seven soldiers in Tillman's unit were mildly punished for their role in his death.
No officers have been punished or reprimanded for lying to the American people and Cpl Tillman's family!!

Last week, the inspector general recommended launching a FOURTH(!) investigation. The goal is to explore possible charges of gross negligence, and to determine how the public was mislead.
_____________________________

Redfisher,
I agree with you that this incident needs a lot more debate. I'm perplexed as why Forum members let it drop so quickly.
Might be that is much easier and satisfying to accept a (possible) Army/Government lie that Pat died a hero..

He did die a hero in my opinion,but not for the PR reasons the Army has stated........



Link Posted: 3/18/2006 12:20:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2006 12:24:49 AM EDT by PromptCritical]
This whole thing just seems like another "squeeky wheel getting the grease" story. I'm sure there are hundreds of friendly fire deaths that get absolutely no investigation other than a quick inquiry into what happened. But when some famous guy gets it, everyone goes apeshit. The family plays it up because they lost their son. The media plays it up because it hurts support for the war.

Same shit with the "distressed white girl of the week" shit we see on the news. Right now it's that dead chick in NY, last time it was Natalie Holloway, and whatever is on Van Sustren's shitty "news" show. Take a murder/rape/kidnapping just like any other in the country and manufacture it into a headline news story as if there isn't enough important shit to report on. The only upside is that it helps to ensure that police are doing their jobs (not that I don't think they do, but when everyone follows the story until they arrest the guy and try him, it puts police in a positive light). But what about the hundreds of other murders that go unsolved. What about those kids on the "Have you seen me" card I get in the mail every other day? Where the fuck is their primetime, breaking news, stop the presses story?

Fuck. I need to go to bed...

ETA: Back to Tillman: I say he did die a hero. Here's why: He enlisted, served his country, and died serving his country. I can't ask anything more. The fact that it wasn't an enemy bullet that got him is irrelevant. He served honorably. End of story. If neglegence was involved, then it needs to be investigated. The problem is the spin that gets put on the story. That not only are soldiers in danger from the enemy in "Bush's illegal war", but also from those "incompetent soldiers stupid enough to fight in Bush's illegal war."

Shit. There I go again...
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:36:04 AM EDT
PromptCritical

I agree... and Disagree.......

I do believe that the Army lied "Big Time" about Cpl Tillman.

They probaably felt that they "had to."

Tillman was a recruiting windfall. Tillman gets popped by his own unit.
Bad PR and bad for recruiting. Bad for the war effort.

Cover up. Make him a combat hero. Issue a silver star. Lie.

I really don't think those are the values that Pat Tillman would want associated with his service and death.

I'm guessing he would champion: honesty, dignity and truth - no matter what!

But maybe I'm putting words in the mouth of his spirit.............
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:21:21 AM EDT
I was not there, but I could actually see how he could have been intentionally murdered by his own guys...

Its possible that he came across as a stuck up asshole to everyone.... Maybe not intentionally, but its possible.. Everyone thats been in the Army has come accross at least one rich kid that didnt really need to join the army, but did anyway..And came accross as a stuck up prick.. He might have just been stating facts like "I walked away from a million dollars", etc..Since most of the military is working class people, this might have been seen as snobish..

Naturally,, the kid gets his ass kicked, or in this case, shot..

3 shots to the forhead? You have to be pretty damn close.. Close enough to tell the difference between your own guy and a bad guy..



Anyone else think the same?



Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:14:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stottman:
I was not there, but I could actually see how he could have been intentionally murdered by his own guys...

...snip....

3 shots to the forehead? You have to be pretty damn close.. Close enough to tell the difference between your own guy and a bad guy..

Anyone else think the same?



I could see it happen. Sadly enough.

But it will require someone who was there to come forward and offer up his team mates heads. Unlikely, but someone knows what's up or it wouldn't have come this far.

Fact is, he was a recruiting star and he could not possibly have been shot by his own men - intentiaonally......could he?

We need more men like:

Sgt Paul Smith: Medal of Honor recipient - Posthumously... story here

or AR15's own Capt. Chontosh: Navy Cross recipient

USMC 1st Sergeant Brad Kasal Several Purple Hearts and up for the Medal of Honor, and all round Ass Kicker

Shown here:



There are 133 Silver Stars awarded in Iraq, 1 Medal of Honor so far.

Our youth could learn a lot from their stories. And now Pat Tillman's story is not the one our Armed Forces want told.

sad.

Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:30:03 AM EDT
CPL. Tillman will always and forever be, regardless of the circumstances of his death, one of my personal heroes, and his example of personal sacrifice for our nation will be taught to my children.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:31:52 AM EDT
dupe
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=442897
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:33:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By michauxii:
Article by Jay Bookman in my local paper.

"The truth though,was that Tillman had been killed by three bullets to the forehead fired by American soldiers in a friendly fire accident, Army officials knew it immediately."
"Officers on the scene knew it,which may be why they ordered Tillman's body armor and uniform burned." (??)

On April 30, the Army posthumously awarded Tillman the Silver Star for bravery,stating that he died in a heroic charge up an enemy held hill."
_____________________________________________

Seems like LtGen John Abizaid the cause of death, but lied to cover the Armys' ass. The officers who drafted the false Silver Star citation knew it too.

Also, looks like seven soldiers in Tillman's unit were mildly punished for their role in his death.
No officers have been punished or reprimanded for lying to the American people and Cpl Tillman's family!!

Last week, the inspector general recommended launching a FOURTH(!) investigation. The goal is to explore possible charges of gross negligence, and to determine how the public was mislead.
_____________________________

Redfisher,
I agree with you that this incident needs a lot more debate. I'm perplexed as why Forum members let it drop so quickly.
Might be that is much easier and satisfying to accept a (possible) Army/Government lie that Pat died a hero..

He did die a hero in my opinion,but not for the PR reasons the Army has stated........






I'm calling BS. It's the fog of war. This shit happens from time to time and it is very unfortunate. However, there is no reason to scream "cover-up," "conspiracy," "homicide." There are legitimate reasons for the Army's course of action, even why they burned Ranger Tillman's gear.

Enough is enough.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:34:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:

Originally Posted By MonkTx:

Originally Posted By redfisher:
i searched Tillman

what else can a guy do?

f*ing GD Forum...


edit: OH!!!! I just put it together

I should have known to mis-spell Tillman in my search!



You gotta love the dupe idiots that call it without providing a link though- real chickenshits.




Ok.





I hate the "dupe" idiots.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:42:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:51:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MonkTx:

Originally Posted By redfisher:
i searched Tillman

what else can a guy do?

f*ing GD Forum...


edit: OH!!!! I just put it together

I should have known to mis-spell Tillman in my search!



You gotta love the dupe idiots that call it without providing a link though- real chickenshits.



DUPE

I just called dupe, and I didnt provide a link. Suck it up, chickenshit.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:52:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:52:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stottman:
I was not there, but I could actually see how he could have been intentionally murdered by his own guys...
Its possible that he came across as a stuck up asshole to everyone.... Maybe not intentionally, but its possible.. Everyone thats been in the Army has come accross at least one rich kid that didnt really need to join the army, but did anyway..And came accross as a stuck up prick.. He might have just been stating facts like "I walked away from a million dollars", etc..Since most of the military is working class people, this might have been seen as snobish..
Naturally,, the kid gets his ass kicked, or in this case, shot..
3 shots to the forhead? You have to be pretty damn close.. Close enough to tell the difference between your own guy and a bad guy..
Anyone else think the same?



No.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 11:29:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By michauxii:
Article by Jay Bookman in my local paper.

"The truth though,was that Tillman had been killed by three bullets to the forehead fired by American soldiers in a friendly fire accident, Army officials knew it immediately." "Officers on the scene knew it,which may be why they ordered Tillman's body armor and uniform burned." (??)

On April 30, the Army posthumously awarded Tillman the Silver Star for bravery,stating that he died in a heroic charge up an enemy held hill."
_____________________________________________

Seems like LtGen John Abizaid the cause of death, but lied to cover the Armys' ass. The officers who drafted the false Silver Star citation knew it too.


Yep. Thats what pissess me off about the whole thing. Tillman deserves so much credit for giving up his career and joining the Army. It showed great character and patriotism. Then the Army completly tarnished his sacrafice by awarding a bogus Silver Star and lying about the circumstances of his death.

I do not belive for a second that Till was deliberately killed by other soldiers. But those soldiers were neglegent in identifying their targets.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 11:37:49 AM EDT
If he was shot by his own men, i'm sure it was for a good reason.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 11:38:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By falaholic1:
If he was shot by his own men, i'm sure it was for a good reason.



Link Posted: 3/19/2006 1:11:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 1:14:55 PM EDT by AyeGuy]
The scope of the lies told by Army officers of the highest rank in this case is a troubling indicator of the level of their personal ethics.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 2:03:37 PM EDT
Aimless,

In light of the rash of rediculous comments (i.e., those by falaholic1, michauxii, and Stottman, to name a few), I respectfully implore you to please lock this thread. The aforementioned comments are a disgrace to Ranger Tillman's memory and to the 75th Ranger Regiment. Suffice it to say, those who were there have spoken and dispelled the rumor and conjecture that has been propogated by the dimwitted in threads such as these.

This discussion makes me sick.

Justin
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 2:08:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stottman:
I was not there, but I could actually see how he could have been intentionally murdered by his own guys...

Its possible that he came across as a stuck up asshole to everyone.... Maybe not intentionally, but its possible.. Everyone thats been in the Army has come accross at least one rich kid that didnt really need to join the army, but did anyway..And came accross as a stuck up prick.. He might have just been stating facts like "I walked away from a million dollars", etc..Since most of the military is working class people, this might have been seen as snobish..

Naturally,, the kid gets his ass kicked, or in this case, shot..

3 shots to the forhead? You have to be pretty damn close.. Close enough to tell the difference between your own guy and a bad guy..



Anyone else think the same?






Something tells me that if you're the kind of person to walk away from millions of dollars to be an Army Ranger, the LAST fucking thing you're going to do is brag about it.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 2:13:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 1:39:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By st0newall:
read this..

story from sept 2005




If the 'strong points' of this story are true, there is a real problem here. Not that being dead isn't a real problem, but the cover up, altering evidence, and general 'loose behavior' on the battlefield is worth an investigation.

I disagree with the "let it go" philosophy

Some people were negligent, maybe even those who shot him
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 4:56:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:

Originally Posted By st0newall:
read this..

story from sept 2005




If the 'strong points' of this story are true, there is a real problem here. Not that being dead isn't a real problem, but the cover up, altering evidence, and general 'loose behavior' on the battlefield is worth an investigation.

I disagree with the "let it go" philosophy

Some people were negligent, maybe even those who shot him



redfisher,

Check out the topic over at LightFighter a few days ago. It'll clear up the BS posted here.

Justin
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 5:01:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stryker_11A:
CPL. Tillman will always and forever be, regardless of the circumstances of his death, one of my personal heroes, and his example of personal sacrifice for our nation will be taught to my children.




+1


LB
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