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Posted: 3/3/2006 8:00:31 PM EDT
Europe objects to El Al's anti-missile shield

European countries set to bar Israeli aircraft equipped with ant-missile system from landing at their airports

Eldad Beck


El Al passenger planes will be barred from landing in some European countries because they have been equipped with defense systems against shoulder-held missiles, German newspaper Der Spiegel reported.


The Swiss aviation authority has already barred El Al aircrafts equipped with the new system from landing in the country, and the German paper said more countries are expected to soon follow.


"If we catch Israeli planes fitted with this system in our airports, they will be grounded," a spokesman for the Swiss aviation authority told Der Spiegel.


The "Flight Guard" defense system is a military system that has been modified to fit civilian aircraft.


This battle-proven system is capable of detecting an approaching missile, warning the crew and automatically activating countermeasures in the form of flares that will divert the missile from its course.


The system has already been installed on a Boeing 767, and will soon be fitted on other planes as well.


'System will cause no damage'


According to defense sources in Israel, the European ban is "odd and based mostly on a misunderstanding." The officials say European countries are primarily concerned about false alarms that will result from the launching of decoy flares over central airports.


"Because these are unique flares, such a malfunction will cause no panic or collateral damages. Instead of thanking Israel, some countries
prefer to stick their head in the sand," an Israeli source said.


However, a source at the Ministry of Transportation said the objection in Europe is not surprising, adding that "countries who oppose the landing of system-equipped planes are not on the list of countries where the threat of a missile attack is high. Therefore, this is not such a big problem."Europe objects to El Al's anti-missile shield



European countries set to bar Israeli aircraft equipped with ant-missile system from landing at their airports
Eldad Beck


El Al passenger planes will be barred from landing in some European countries because they have been equipped with defense systems against shoulder-held missiles, German newspaper Der Spiegel reported.


The Swiss aviation authority has already barred El Al aircrafts equipped with the new system from landing in the country, and the German paper said more countries are expected to soon follow.


"If we catch Israeli planes fitted with this system in our airports, they will be grounded," a spokesman for the Swiss aviation authority told Der Spiegel.


The "Flight Guard" defense system is a military system that has been modified to fit civilian aircraft.


This battle-proven system is capable of detecting an approaching missile, warning the crew and automatically activating countermeasures in the form of flares that will divert the missile from its course.


The system has already been installed on a Boeing 767, and will soon be fitted on other planes as well.


'System will cause no damage'


According to defense sources in Israel, the European ban is "odd and based mostly on a misunderstanding." The officials say European countries are primarily concerned about false alarms that will result from the launching of decoy flares over central airports.


"Because these are unique flares, such a malfunction will cause no panic or collateral damages. Instead of thanking Israel, some countries
prefer to stick their head in the sand," an Israeli source said.


However, a source at the Ministry of Transportation said the objection in Europe is not surprising, adding that "countries who oppose the landing of system-equipped planes are not on the list of countries where the threat of a missile attack is high. Therefore, this is not such a big problem."

www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3221013,00.html
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 8:03:19 PM EDT
wtf?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 8:12:26 PM EDT
Aren't many military aircraft armed with the same sytems?

Sounds like simple anti-Israeli legislation.

Diverting missiles has to be safer than missile disabled jetliners landing in high population neighborhoods.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 8:15:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 8:18:59 PM EDT by home_with_kids]
well, I suppose dropping flares on departure or approach would be considered bad form. Especially if it was spoofed by say, burning cars on the ground around Paris.

But I would look at the false positive rate before I banned them. Has one of these systems EVER lauched a flare CM in error?

EDIT

SS109 said: Diverting missiles has to be safer than missile disabled jetliners landing in high population neighborhoods.


yes 14 city blocks were burned to the ground by the crashing jet, but thank god not one was harmed by a Jewish flare. Stupid F-ing Euros.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 8:16:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 8:17:12 PM EDT by neophyte]
Germany and Israel?????? Please tell me the Germans are not discriminating against Israel!!!

This can not turn out well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh I see it was quoted from a German news source.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 8:20:45 PM EDT
dumbasses
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 8:29:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SS109:
Aren't many military aircraft armed with the same sytems?

Sounds like simple anti-Israeli legislation.

Diverting missiles has to be safer than missile disabled jetliners landing in high population neighborhoods.



Ya think...

I wonder how many false alarms (nuisance wise) equal one downed airplane with dead passengers and crew (nuisance wise).

Of course in Europe these days dead Jews don't rate much worry.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 8:35:58 PM EDT
fucking europe
when are the huns gonna kick all their asses again

oh yeah forgot the fuckling huns are euroweinies now too
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 8:36:55 PM EDT
Sounds as if the EU is staffed by a bunch of radical Muslims or their supporters! "Achmed, if you don't ban this system, our beloved brother in arms Mustafa will not be able to bring the planes of the infidels down over our European cities"! Are all Europeans this batshit stupid?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 8:37:16 PM EDT
Wow
europe has its head up its a**
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 8:40:22 PM EDT
Oh, this is rich!! Who-hooo!!! Mount Air-Marshals in belly turrets next so they can be banned too!
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 8:55:03 PM EDT
The future of this protection is IR laser spoofing the missile, not flares. However, what works NOW is the flare approach.



http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1524186/posts

selected synopsis:

BAE is testing "Jeteye," an adaptation of its AN/ALQ-212 Advanced Threat Infrared Countermeasures (Atircm) system, and Northrop Grumman is testing "Guardian," taken from its AN/AAQ-24(V) Directed Infrared Countermeasures (Dircm) system. Jeteye and Guardian are similar in concept--both have wide-field-of-view, ultraviolet staring-array sensors that cover the lower hemisphere, and a narrow-field-of-view IR tracker in a turret with a boresighted laser jammer. The ultraviolet sensors first detect a potential missile plume and report the location to the IR tracker, which swings into position and locks on. The system compares the UV and IR intensities to check that they match the signature of a missile plume, and not some false target. When verified, the laser emits a narrow, powerful beam of modulated multiband IR light at the missile to confuse its seeker by overpowering the chopped light from the seeker's spinning reticle that's used for guidance.

Link Posted: 3/3/2006 8:58:55 PM EDT
Western Europe sucks.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 9:11:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 9:12:44 PM EDT by Spade]
It should also be known that there's a couple Russian MANPADS floating about Western Europe, controlled by Muslim tangos. It's thought France, but with the EU open borders they can be anywhere easily.

Odds are an El Al flight would be high on the target list. Euro countries wouldn't care about this for, well, obvious reasons.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 9:18:40 PM EDT
It's those damn russians fault for releasing thier 'Iron Curtain" grip...
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 3:56:42 AM EDT
Anti-semitism is alive and well in Europe today.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 2:25:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 2:31:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
Of course in Europe these days dead Jews don't rate much worry.


What do you mean "these days"? It's been that way forever.

Bunch of xenophobic, anti-Semitic pricks.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 2:32:17 PM EDT
Perhaps Israel needs to inact concealed carry legislation in those countries so that they have the right to self protection. What a farce to ban defensive systems.

M4-AK
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:26:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 4:32:10 PM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:29:06 PM EDT


Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:30:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 4:32:56 PM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
IBTDKPFSNTSAAIRTTS*



(*In Before DK-Prof Finds Something Negative To Say About America In Relation To This Subject)







Last time I asked you to provide EVIDENCE of my apparent constant America-hating posts, you had nothing. What is up your ass, exactly? You used to be one of the most reasonable and rational posters on arfcom, and now you just seems to want to pick pointless fights for no reason.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:31:49 PM EDT
So this is just the Swiss right?

Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:41:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 4:44:54 PM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:43:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 4:46:21 PM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By vito113:
The use of the 'FLIGHT GUARD' system on El Al flights is banned on flights into the USA by the FAA on 'Safety Grounds'.....but is permitted at most European airports.

www.dailyalert.org/archive/2004-06/2004-06-22.html

Stones, glass houses...



You're just an anti-American asshole. Don't you know the purpose of this thread is for everyone to post stuff like "Euroweenies are all pussies" and "Europe can go to hell" - oh, and of course - "Europeans all hate Jews"

Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:49:02 PM EDT
This is just like people in our country not wanting the ordinary citizen to have access to body armor.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:52:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SS109:
Aren't many military aircraft armed with the same sytems?




Try EVERY manned military aircraft that has a chance of being used over hostile areas, meaning pretty much everything the USAF flies that doesnt have a designation starting with T
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:53:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
IBTDKPFSNTSAAIRTTS*


(*In Before DK-Prof Finds Something Negative To Say About America In Relation To This Subject)



You really should get that yeast infection checked out.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:57:52 PM EDT
This is BS....But not for nothing..I have seen 1st hand what happens when a few buckets of flares get dumped on a bridge.....Not that I had anything to do with it while going over the Panama Canal on the way back to Howard and there was huge microwave transmitters on each end of the bridge as a Herc did a 'bumb' over the Bridge of America's....

Accidents do happen.

But I (if I were Isreal) would tell those Euro a$$holes to get pound sand and ban everyflight coming into Isreal.

I really hate many, many, many, many, many countries in Europe.

Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:58:28 PM EDT
Will someone please explain to me why it seems that only clueless assholes get into positions of power?
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:59:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Will someone please explain to me why it seems that only clueless assholes get into positions of power?



because everyone else is smart enough to realize that political office sucks
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:01:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 5:02:52 PM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:04:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
The use of the 'FLIGHT GUARD' system on El Al flights is banned on flights into the USA by the FAA on 'Safety Grounds'.....but is permitted at most European airports.

www.dailyalert.org/archive/2004-06/2004-06-22.html

Stones, glass houses...




Not quite the same thing. From your link:

Nevertheless, America's FAA has stated that El Al flights entering U.S. airspace would have to switch off the system.


Telling them to turn off the system is way different from banning the aircraft from entry. True, it would be better if these systems were allowed.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:06:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
ONLY SWITZERLAND prohibits the system in Europe, it's OK'd for use everywhere else.

And while they are at it maybe they should tell the FAA to 'pound sand' for banning the system in the USA?


The US requires them to "switch off." If I were them I'd say "sure it's off" and then go about my business.

You're right though, even the "switch off" direction is BS.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:07:00 PM EDT
Anti-Semitism dies hard in the old Europe apparently.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:15:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 5:17:40 PM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:16:20 PM EDT
I can see it being a potential fire hazard... Because of course you can't bring fire on Airplanes


But yes this is BS. The potential life saving this system and systems like it offer far outways the chance of dropping some flares over your country.


Now I can also see some other potential problems... for instance what if the terrorists got ahold of the plane. this would make it harder to shoot down. In a national defence point of view any plane not controled by us should not be entering our airspace if it has military defences. In Practical view this Is a CIZILIAN craft with needed defences and should be alowed.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:20:01 PM EDT
Can we ban Europe? Most of it anyway.

The more I read this type of shit, the less tolerant I become.

I need a break.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:21:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By vito113:
ONLY SWITZERLAND prohibits the system in Europe, it's OK'd for use everywhere else.

And while they are at it maybe they should tell the FAA to 'pound sand' for banning the system in the USA?


The US requires them to "switch off." If I were them I'd say "sure it's off" and then go about my business.

You're right though, even the "switch off" direction is BS.



Good to see someone is actually reading the post rather than just venting blindly at the 'Euroweenies'.

Although the temptation may be to leave the system switched on as you enter US airspace, a false alarm deployment would probably cost you your landing rights.

It's because of the FAA rules the US/British Airlines put money into a jointly developed DIRCM and chaff based system rather than flares.

ANdy


I can think of reasons why the US wouldn't want this system in the US. The biggest reason being southern CA. Even if they only burn for three seconds, they'll still be hot. Hot enough to possibly start a wildfire during the dry season.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:21:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:24:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:25:21 PM EDT
i have a lot of respect for switzerland, but not so much anymore.

and yes, the US's rules are FUBAR too.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:28:29 PM EDT
There must be something about the FLIGHT GUARD defence system that the authorities are not telling us, which why the FAA has requested that it be turned-off while in USofA airspace.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 6:36:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 6:40:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 6:51:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neophyte:
Germany and Israel?????? Please tell me the Germans are not discriminating against Israel!!!

This can not turn out well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh I see it was quoted from a German news source.



You know the funny thing is Israel would kick their fucking ass so fast it if you blnked you'd miss it.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 7:09:49 PM EDT
Many different US millitary planes with similiar systems turn them off when on approach or landing to curb wild fires and other social fall out from a false activation of flares... (heck we've got to limit our pattern work to full stop landings only at most civil fields around here after 9PM so we don't stir the locals... imagine if I dumped a flare in their swimming pool)

To totally ban a type/model because it has this defense is silly. Especially if its a ban solely on one country's aircraft.

To require them to turn it of may not be a bad idea... depending on the potential/probable threat.

To not turn it off when required to by the host nation is a serious event waiting to happen....
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 2:34:27 AM EDT
But wait a minute....I'd bet a kick in the ding ding that if palistine had their own Aircraft with the system, it would be OK.

We are dealing with Europe....Germany to follow.....Nothing really surprising now that I think about it.

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 2:55:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 2:57:39 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 6:27:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 6:29:25 AM EDT by Top_prop]

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Top_prop:
Many different US millitary planes with similiar systems turn them off when on approach or landing to curb wild fires and other social fall out from a false activation of flares... (heck we've got to limit our pattern work to full stop landings only at most civil fields around here after 9PM so we don't stir the locals... imagine if I dumped a flare in their swimming pool)

Exactly- so this entire post is a chest beating exercise about nothing. Switzerlands International airport is in a highly urbanised region with large quantities of straw roofed & wooden houses and pine woodland. US/UK plane operators are developing a chaff and laser based system for exactly this reason.

To totally ban a type/model because it has this defense is silly. Especially if its a ban solely on one country's aircraft.

The only ban El Al's planes because only El Al's planes have the system fitted. If BA or United had a flare based system they would be banned too.

To require them to turn it off may not be a bad idea... depending on the potential/probable threat.

Yep, exactly the same rules as the FAA applies to aircraft entering US airspace

To not turn it off when required to by the host nation is a serious event waiting to happen....

Clearly you are another person with an understanding of how the real world works




Vitto, thanks for the kind words but I don't agree totally.. .if the Israeli system has an off switch it shouldn't be banned... if it doesn't, then it proably isn't fitted on the plane, cause that is just stupid in itself... but even if it didn't have an 'off' swithc i'd just pull the breaker to it and not worry about starting a wild fire...

so I do beilive the Swiss are over reacting. But their concern is understandable if ther reaction is anything but.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 6:41:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
The use of the 'FLIGHT GUARD' system on El Al flights is banned on flights into the USA by the FAA on 'Safety Grounds'.....but is permitted at most European airports.

www.dailyalert.org/archive/2004-06/2004-06-22.html

Stones, glass houses...



Read this

Excerpt from article :

“The system is about as effective as there is (at the moment),” said David Learmount, safety editor of Flight International magazine.

Nevertheless, America’s Federal Aviation Administration has stated that El Al flights entering US airspace would have to switch off the system.
The US Department of Homeland Security wants to begin fitting anti-missile systems to commercial jets in America by 2006. This year it awarded contracts each worth £1.1m to three aviation companies, including BAE Systems, to develop suitable technology. None of the contracts involves flare-based systems.
BA, which has been forced to cancel flights to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, several times because of terrorist threats, has discussed anti-missile counter-measures with BAE, Boeing and Airbus. “We are keeping a close eye on developments, but we believe an appropriate measure is still some years away,” said a BA spokesman.


Better anti-missile systems are in the system.


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