Bush defends India job outsourcing - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bush defends India job outsourcing (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 3/3/2006 7:09:21 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Protectionism and socialism never work, but the free market will seek the most efficient use of resources and improve everyone's lives in the process.

You're not even familiar with recent history.

Today in the US the Japanese Auto Makers have dozens of manufacturing facilities. Car plants churning our Japanese cars made by American workers. Why? Because of tarriffs on importing Japanese automobiles. The Japanese USED to make cars in Japan and then ship them to the United States for sale. The US automakers were afraid that the competition would put them out of business so they begged the government for tarriffs on Japanese cars and the government agreed. Now the Japanese are competing in this market, and even beating their competitors...and they are doing it with American labor. Why? Protectionism!

Brilliant. Rely on the government to protect our jobs that we're not doing well, and chargeing
to much for. Yep. We were getting our behinds kicked by the Japanese, and, probably still would
be today. Was the solution to fix our flawed, bloated system? No. The solution was to
block the importation of cars that we refused to or could not make.

Why should we bother being competetive when daddy .gov will come make everything better?

Posted: 3/3/2006 7:11:15 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Protectionism and socialism never work, but the free market will seek the most efficient use of resources and improve everyone's lives in the process.

You're not even familiar with recent history.

Today in the US the Japanese Auto Makers have dozens of manufacturing facilities. Car plants churning our Japanese cars made by American workers. Why? Because of tarriffs on importing Japanese automobiles. The Japanese USED to make cars in Japan and then ship them to the United States for sale. The US automakers were afraid that the competition would put them out of business so they begged the government for tarriffs on Japanese cars and the government agreed. Now the Japanese are competing in this market, and even beating their competitors...and they are doing it with American labor. Why? Protectionism!

You don't see the flaw with that. Not many decent autos coming out of Detroit. That's what protectionism gets you, inferior products for more money.

Posted: 3/3/2006 7:12:57 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Protectionism and socialism never work, but the free market will seek the most efficient use of resources and improve everyone's lives in the process.

You're not even familiar with recent history.

Today in the US the Japanese Auto Makers have dozens of manufacturing facilities. Car plants churning our Japanese cars made by American workers. Why? Because of tarriffs on importing Japanese automobiles. The Japanese USED to make cars in Japan and then ship them to the United States for sale. The US automakers were afraid that the competition would put them out of business so they begged the government for tarriffs on Japanese cars and the government agreed. Now the Japanese are competing in this market, and even beating their competitors...and they are doing it with American labor. Why? Protectionism!

Your anecdotes prove nothing. You don't prove that this is a beneficial situation, you don't prove that there aren't more ideal solutions that would have been arrived at without governmental interference, and you don't even prove that the tariffs are the cause of the current situation.

You should try harder next time.

Posted: 3/3/2006 7:19:14 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Protectionism and socialism never work, but the free market will seek the most efficient use of resources and improve everyone's lives in the process.

You're not even familiar with recent history.

Today in the US the Japanese Auto Makers have dozens of manufacturing facilities. Car plants churning our Japanese cars made by American workers. Why? Because of tarriffs on importing Japanese automobiles. The Japanese USED to make cars in Japan and then ship them to the United States for sale. The US automakers were afraid that the competition would put them out of business so they begged the government for tarriffs on Japanese cars and the government agreed. Now the Japanese are competing in this market, and even beating their competitors...and they are doing it with American labor. Why? Protectionism!

You don't see the flaw with that. Not many decent autos coming out of Detroit. That's what protectionism gets you, inferior products for more money.

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

The cars coming out of Detroit are besides the point. Don't try and change the discussion!

I am referring to (and you know it too!) the JAPANESE cars (Toyota, Honda, etc.) that are being made in the United States because of the tarriffs on Japanese car imports. These tarriffs forced the Japanese to open plants in the United States where they still produce high quality cars at lower prices (and for the most part they do it without union labor). Despite the tarriffs, the American consumer STILL has access to the higher quality, lower priced product.

Posted: 3/3/2006 7:20:09 AM EDT

[#5]

I learned at a very young age that being self employed was the only safe route.
It was the greatest lesson and best thing I ever did.
A consultant showed me how I could save my business $250K per year by out sourcing
certain accounting and fulfillment positions. I told him to kiss my ass.

Many of you that agree with sending American jobs over seas have a very
myopic view of the future of our great country. IMHO.
The founding fathers must be rolling in their graves.

ETA: And no, I don't believe there should be government mandates. It ain't about government,
it's about ethics and people.

Posted: 3/3/2006 7:21:37 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Protectionism and socialism never work, but the free market will seek the most efficient use of resources and improve everyone's lives in the process.

You're not even familiar with recent history.

Today in the US the Japanese Auto Makers have dozens of manufacturing facilities. Car plants churning our Japanese cars made by American workers. Why? Because of tarriffs on importing Japanese automobiles. The Japanese USED to make cars in Japan and then ship them to the United States for sale. The US automakers were afraid that the competition would put them out of business so they begged the government for tarriffs on Japanese cars and the government agreed. Now the Japanese are competing in this market, and even beating their competitors...and they are doing it with American labor. Why? Protectionism!

Your anecdotes prove nothing. You don't prove that this is a beneficial situation, you don't prove that there aren't more ideal solutions that would have been arrived at without governmental interference, and you don't even prove that the tariffs are the cause of the current situation.

You should try harder next time.

Posted: 3/3/2006 7:28:13 AM EDT

[#7]

Doesn't Europe have a lot of socialist protectionist policies and widespread unemployment?

Posted: 3/3/2006 7:43:46 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Doesn't Europe have a lot of socialist protectionist policies and widespread unemployment?

That's what I've been trying to point out several times, but it's not sinking in. Lets run the numbers:

Europe:

Developed, high tech economy, with protectionist policies and lots of socialist programs.
8.3% unemployment, lots higher in countries like France and Germany that make up most of the EU economy.
1-2% GDP growth, lower in some countries.

USA:

Developed, high tech economy, with no protectionist policies and only a few socialist programs.
4.9% Unemployment + god knows how many illegals working who don't respond to the official surveys
4%+ GDP growth.

Gee, hrmm, I think there is a sign here.

Posted: 3/3/2006 7:46:24 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have two friends that lost their admin jobs to out sourcing.
First it was manufacturing, now it's administration. We've sold our soul.
Hey bush, stop kissing all the foreign ass and take care of your own. Bush has lost his mind.

Tough shit. Learn to adapt or you won't survive. You can't single-handedly change global capitalism. I have lost more jobs than I care to recall, but I didn't whine about it and blame .gov - I went out, got the skills I needed to stay competitive, and kept living my life.

That takes effort.

It'll never be popular.

Yep. Much easier to blame President Bush...fewer brain cells involved, less effort. Then they can go back to surfing porn sites.

Posted: 3/3/2006 7:54:38 AM EDT

[#10]

I wouldn't object to Indian outsourcing if India were in fact an open market for US goods. India has a tariff on nearly every US good being imported into India. When I ran my company's Asian sales division, it was a major pain in the ass to sell in India because they placed a 25% tariff on our incoming products in order to protect domestic companies.

Bush should be supportive of Indian outsourcing only if India is willing to open her markets to US goods.

Talking about "free market forces" is all well and good, but the playing field is currently tilted.

Posted: 3/3/2006 8:01:15 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
When will the sale of America end??????

Around 2010 when FTAA takes effect is my guess. Its a crying same what is happening to our Country. Capitolism is a wonderful thing but we do need some protection of US jobs or in the near future none of us will have any worth a crap. Almost every Conunty in the world protects there workers and economy from unfair work practices except the USA. If you don't think that is true try to get a non GOV/MIL job in Germany or most of Europe as an Americian. You will find that it is almost impossible because they protect there national intrest and industries. The USA and middle class workers can not compete with 3rd world workers that make $2 a day thats all but a slave like in China or India. For Christ sake China/India have 6 year olds working in sweatshop factories in some areas, is this the People/Country we want to do business with? It's clear in my mind that Bush is a true Globalist first and a American a distant second and a idiot on issues like this, the UAE Port deal and the Mexican Border. Hell, I would not be suprised if he wants to sell the Statue Of Liberty to China next week...LOL

Posted: 3/3/2006 8:12:51 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

The cars coming out of Detroit are besides the point. Don't try and change the discussion!

We're not changing the discussion. We are talking about outsourcing jobs. What you want to do is eliminate competition for labor. We tried that with the automakers. It allowed Detroit to be fat and bloated.

I am referring to (and you know it too!) the JAPANESE cars (Toyota, Honda, etc.) that are being made in the United States because of the tarriffs on Japanese car imports. These tarriffs forced the Japanese to open plants in the United States where they still produce high quality cars at lower prices (and for the most part they do it without union labor). Despite the tarriffs, the American consumer STILL has access to the higher quality, lower priced product.

These tariffs only caused the Japanese to shift operations. When the Yen was weak that shift in operations caused their cars to have a higher price than if there would have been Japanese made autos directly imported without tariffs.

One more thing about your protective tariffs. They allowed the unions to kill Detroit. Now how many "American" cars are assembled in Mexico or Canada, or have major componants that are. Detroit has to outsource to offset the massive cost of supporting the unions.

Posted: 3/3/2006 8:15:48 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
When will the sale of America end??????

Around 2010 when FTAA takes effect is my guess. Its a crying same what is happening to our Country. Capitolism is a wonderful thing but we do need some protection of US jobs or in the near future none of us will have any worth a crap. Almost every Conunty in the world protects there workers and economy from unfair work practices except the USA. If you don't think that is true try to get a non GOV/MIL job in Germany or most of Europe as an Americian. You will find that it is almost impossible because they protect there national intrest and industries. The USA and middle class workers can not compete with 3rd world workers that make $2 a day thats all but a slave like in China or India. For Christ sake China/India have 6 year olds working in sweetshop factories in some areas, is this the People/Country we want to do business with? It's clear in my mind that Bush is a true Globalist first and a American a distant second and a idiot on issues like this, the UAE Port deal and the Mexican Border. Hell, I would not be suprised if he wants to sell the Statue Of Liberty to China next week...LOL

People keep saying 'but we won't have any more jobs left', but yet we have today more jobs than we have EVER had, and enough that people are willing to cross deserts and sail across oceans in an innertube to work here.

The facts are simply against you. For every job that goes overseas, the capital saved from that gets reinvested back into the US providing more jobs here.

People always act like the sky is falling, but yet we stay at damn close to effectively full employment, and the GDP keeps on growing.

Posted: 3/3/2006 8:42:55 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
This country needs all kind of jobs because all kinds of people live here. We manufacture things to sell. People without jobs cannot buy them. Besides the analysts, technicians, programmers, CEOs, welders, police, firemen, doctors, etc., we also need floor sweepers, janitors, window washers, fast food workers too. People make a living doing what they can do. Just because our government chooses to draw our standard of living down to the lowest common denominator while raising other countries doesn't make it right. We have had one of the highest standards for decades because we used what we made and our markets were protected by our government. After NAFTA someone in Washington must have decided that the only way to make the rich even richer was to lower our living conditions.

I don't give a shit about globalization or India or anywhere else. I do care about my country and the ability of people here to make a living. Poverty and hunger start wars. I do not believe that the average U.S. citizen living like someone in Bombay is where we want to be. I think the president is completely wrong about globalization because only the third world countries benefit at the expense of the more prosperous nations. We have it. Let's keep it.

Your comments feel good from an emotional standpoint, but take a moment to THINK about what you are saying.

How do you propose our government keep jobs in the US? Tariffs are the only way. All that would do is make the US even less able to compete in the global market.

The only way to keep jobs here is to somehow get the American worker to work as hard as their Chinese and Indian counterparts. Also we would have to get rid of all those Government regulations and programs that we love so much. EEOC, OSHA, SS, Welfare, etc. The voters would never approve that though would they.

You want to blame anyone, look in the mirror.

American workers and voters are doing it to themselves. Blaming the Government is almost as stupid as blaming Walmart.

Posted: 3/3/2006 8:45:09 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Dey turk ma jurb!!

Rabble Rabble Rabble Rabble!

Posted: 3/3/2006 9:03:20 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
The shift to Globalism cannot and will not be stopped. The best strategy for anyone is to seek out training in fields that are 1) in-need and 2) cannot be outsourced. Policeman, fireman, doctor, lawyer, dentist all come to mind. Diesel mechanic, welder and plumber would also be good career choices (granted, you would have to actually work...)

That is an excellent stategy, except for the fact that all the jobs mentioned require tax money, or paying customers. The blue collar jobs are already being insourced by illegals, so I'm not sure that they will offer a good career. On a fundamental level, I can't help but question weather our standard of living can be maintained by a nation of Government workers, Doctors and Lawyers. (people who do not create wealth)

Posted: 3/3/2006 9:27:09 AM EDT

[#17]

The main problem is that we operate under corporate socialism and "free trade" which screws the US, instead of fair trade.

We should outsource our government, as we would be able to get the same quality for only 10% of the cost.

Posted: 3/3/2006 9:58:32 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Doesn't Europe have a lot of socialist protectionist policies and widespread unemployment?

That's what I've been trying to point out several times, but it's not sinking in. Lets run the numbers:

Europe:

Developed, high tech economy, with protectionist policies and lots of socialist programs.
8.3% unemployment, lots higher in countries like France and Germany that make up most of the EU economy.
1-2% GDP growth, lower in some countries.

USA:

Developed, high tech economy, with no protectionist policies and only a few socialist programs.
4.9% Unemployment + god knows how many illegals working who don't respond to the official surveys
4%+ GDP growth.

Gee, hrmm, I think there is a sign here.

OK, that's very interesting. Completely irrelevant, but interesting.

Now compare the US economy to economies that we are actually competing with. Compare the US economy to the economy of China and India. These nation's GDPs are growing at astounding rates. I believe China's GDP is growing at about twice the rate of the US. Both of these countries are creating jobs and keeping their markets closed to imports. The result is that consumers are spending their money on domestic products bolstering their economies even more. What is the US doing? We're sending jobs overseas and importing forgien goods like crazy. The result is that our economy's economic growth is slowing and has been for years.

Posted: 3/3/2006 10:09:15 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
If only the government were powerful enough to force private companies to do what they're told.

Wouldn't it be wonderful?

It would sure take care of the industries that are "bad".

It would help ensure "reasonable" profits, as well.

It would make the world "safer".

It would be "fair" for everyone.

Hopefully, someday soon a New Government will come to power that will make these corporations act accordingly.

Posted: 3/3/2006 10:20:02 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
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at least GW is consistant on this issue - drive down everyone's wages.

That is EXACTLY what outsourcing and "free trade" is doing in the United States. Americans are losing their jobs to overseas competition and forced to take lower paying jobs. The quality of life for Americans IS declining (I'm watching it happen to friends and relatives) and the quality of life for Indians and Chinese is improving.

Economics isn't a zero-sum game. And I would argue just the opposite--I am so much better off than my parents or grandparents, and most of my cousins are much better off than they deserve to be.

GunLvr

Posted: 3/3/2006 10:21:17 AM EDT

[#21]

If I hear that "it's the free market" one more time, I'm going to go nuclear.

It's not a "free market" when we are competing with countries that have a nearly limitless supply of cheap labor with nearly no environmental or labor protection laws to drive up costs.

Our leadership, and we as a nation, are shooting ourselves in the foot with this "global trade" claptrap. Not to mention the tariff issues already discussed here.

I'm now convinced that Bush truly is an idiot, and dangerous.

Posted: 3/3/2006 10:30:18 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If only the government were powerful enough to force private companies to do what they're told.

Wouldn't it be wonderful?

It would sure take care of the industries that are "bad".

It would help ensure "reasonable" profits, as well.

It would make the world "safer".

It would be "fair" for everyone.

Hopefully, someday soon a New Government will come to power that will make these corporations act accordingly.

Why do we need a new government to regulate international and interstate trade? Our current government has both the constitutional authority and the constitutional mandate to regulate commerce. What we need is for the government to stop shirking it's responsability.

Participating in commerical enterprise is not a right. Owning a gun is a right, practicing the religion of your choice is a right, been secure from warrantless searches is a right, voting is a right. Making a profit in a commercial enterprise is a privelage that our constitution gives government the right to regulate. It is 100% reasonable to expect someone engaged in for profit ventures to contribute to the strength and well being of the society that it operates in. Thousands of businesses in this country do so every day.

Capitalism is not a right, it is a privelage and excercise of that privelage must be to the benefit of the society not just to a select few. Read up on what Teddy Roosevelt felt about commerce. Read up on what Reagan did to protect the American economy. These were men who launched this nation light years ahead in terms of our strength and economic power. These 2 men more than any others are responsible for our status as the world's only superpower. What did they put into economic practice? Protectionism and government regulation of the market.

Posted: 3/3/2006 10:32:19 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
When will the sale of America end??????

Around 2010 when FTAA takes effect is my guess. Its a crying same what is happening to our Country. Capitolism is a wonderful thing but we do need some protection of US jobs or in the near future none of us will have any worth a crap. Almost every Conunty in the world protects there workers and economy from unfair work practices except the USA. If you don't think that is true try to get a non GOV/MIL job in Germany or most of Europe as an Americian. You will find that it is almost impossible because they protect there national intrest and industries. The USA and middle class workers can not compete with 3rd world workers that make $2 a day thats all but a slave like in China or India. For Christ sake China/India have 6 year olds working in sweetshop factories in some areas, is this the People/Country we want to do business with? It's clear in my mind that Bush is a true Globalist first and a American a distant second and a idiot on issues like this, the UAE Port deal and the Mexican Border. Hell, I would not be suprised if he wants to sell the Statue Of Liberty to China next week...LOL

People keep saying 'but we won't have any more jobs left', but yet we have today more jobs than we have EVER had, and enough that people are willing to cross deserts and sail across oceans in an innertube to work here.

The facts are simply against you. For every job that goes overseas, the capital saved from that gets reinvested back into the US providing more jobs here.

People always act like the sky is falling, but yet we stay at damn close to effectively full employment, and the GDP keeps on growing.

Most of the people that are "crossing the desert" are illegals that are destroying our Country. The facts are that the US Gov does not keep proper unemployment data anymore. When you run out of benifits they stop tracking you. They changed the collection of these stats in the late 90's and the rate is most likley around 10 to 15% in some areas of the US. I can show you areas in Alabama that were devistated by the loss of industry that have never recovered in the so called great economy.

We have lost 3 million good paying jobs since NAFTA and have replaced them with jobs that make $6 to $8 an hour in most cases while many other tradional blue collar industries like construction are only employing illegals in some communities. Our entire economy is being held up by this outragous and insane housing market and Gov defense contracts for the most part. Our manufacturing base is all but dead and most of these new jobs your are talking about are in the service industry. The sky is not falling but what little is left of our middle & upper middle class is dying a slow death every day. As more and more of these "dessert crosser" as you like to call them come here the more jobs and industries will be lost to these illegal invaders.

Posted: 3/3/2006 10:45:00 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If only the government were powerful enough to force private companies to do what they're told.

Wouldn't it be wonderful?

It would sure take care of the industries that are "bad".

It would help ensure "reasonable" profits, as well.

It would make the world "safer".

It would be "fair" for everyone.

Hopefully, someday soon a New Government will come to power that will make these corporations act accordingly.

Why do we need a new government to regulate international and interstate trade? Our current government has both the constitutional authority and the constitutional mandate to regulate commerce. What we need is for the government to stop shirking it's responsability.

Participating in commerical enterprise is not a right. Owning a gun is a right, practicing the religion of your choice is a right, been secure from warrantless searches is a right, voting is a right. Making a profit in a commercial enterprise is a privelage that our constitution gives government the right to regulate. It is 100% reasonable to expect someone engaged in for profit ventures to contribute to the strength and well being of the society that it operates in. Thousands of businesses in this country do so every day.

Capitalism is not a right, it is a privelage and excercise of that privelage must be to the benefit of the society not just to a select few. Read up on what Teddy Roosevelt felt about commerce. Read up on what Reagan did to protect the American economy. These were men who launched this nation light years ahead in terms of our strength and economic power. These 2 men more than any others are responsible for our status as the world's only superpower. What did they put into economic practice? Protectionism and government regulation of the market.

So, AGAIN, why not come out and speak in plain English.

You support the Government FORCING these private corporations to as they are told.
Just say it.

Stop beating around the bush.

Posted: 3/3/2006 10:52:24 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If only the government were powerful enough to force private companies to do what they're told.

Wouldn't it be wonderful?

It would sure take care of the industries that are "bad".

It would help ensure "reasonable" profits, as well.

It would make the world "safer".

It would be "fair" for everyone.

Hopefully, someday soon a New Government will come to power that will make these corporations act accordingly.

Why do we need a new government to regulate international and interstate trade? Our current government has both the constitutional authority and the constitutional mandate to regulate commerce. What we need is for the government to stop shirking it's responsability.

Participating in commerical enterprise is not a right. Owning a gun is a right, practicing the religion of your choice is a right, been secure from warrantless searches is a right, voting is a right. Making a profit in a commercial enterprise is a privelage that our constitution gives government the right to regulate. It is 100% reasonable to expect someone engaged in for profit ventures to contribute to the strength and well being of the society that it operates in. Thousands of businesses in this country do so every day.

Capitalism is not a right, it is a privelage and excercise of that privelage must be to the benefit of the society not just to a select few. Read up on what Teddy Roosevelt felt about commerce. Read up on what Reagan did to protect the American economy. These were men who launched this nation light years ahead in terms of our strength and economic power. These 2 men more than any others are responsible for our status as the world's only superpower. What did they put into economic practice? Protectionism and government regulation of the market.

So, AGAIN, why not come out and speak in plain English.

You support the Government FORCING these private corporations to as they are told.
Just say it.

Stop beating around the bush.

I didn't realize that I was beating around the bush.

Posted: 3/3/2006 10:53:36 AM EDT

[#26]

You still are.

Say it! Say it!

Posted: 3/3/2006 11:17:46 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
You still are.

Say it! Say it!

I've said what I have to say, and what I believe:

1. That government has the constitutional authority and mandate to regulate the commerce including the practices of for profit enterprises.

2. That it is completely reasonable to expect entities engaged in for profit enterprise to provide a benefit to the society as a whole while making a profit.

3. That the presidents who contributed the most to growth of this nation's power both practiced regulation of for profit enterprise and protectionist economics.

Posted: 3/3/2006 11:23:34 AM EDT

[#28]

So...

...yes or no, do you want the government to FORCE these companies to stop hiring workers overseas?

It sounds like that is what you support, yet you don't quite say it.
I can't blame you.

Posted: 3/3/2006 11:33:33 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
So...

...yes or no, do you want the government to FORCE these companies to stop hiring workers overseas?

It sounds like that is what you support, yet you don't quite say it.
I can't blame you.

I think that the government should take more steps to protect American jobs. I think that the government should do something to correct the trade imbalance and ensure that our manufacturing might and that our technogical prowess are not being sold off to the lowest bidder.

Yes, I think that the government should implement restrictions to prevent offshoring of American tech jobs and manufacturing. Especially to China which IS a hostile nation to the United States. I think that the government should also implement tariffs to prevent products from nations with markets that are closed to American products (like China and India) from importing products to the United States. At the same time I think that employees and unions need to make serious concessions to private sector enterprises so that they can remain profitable, but I don't think that concessions to the level of 3rd world shitholes are in order.

Posted: 3/3/2006 11:42:48 AM EDT

[#30]

manufacturing based economy, to a tech and services based economy, to an outsourced economy...hmmmmm. nice plan.

Company profits are up, wages are flat, the cost of everything is going up, nice plan.

Eventually, the pyramid scheme doesn't work anymore.

Posted: 3/3/2006 12:06:32 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Company profits are up, wages are flat, the cost of everything is going up, nice plan.

In real dollars, household incomes are $10,000 more than they were 30 years ago.

GunLvr

Posted: 3/3/2006 12:57:39 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Quoted:
So...

...yes or no, do you want the government to FORCE these companies to stop hiring workers overseas?

It sounds like that is what you support, yet you don't quite say it.
I can't blame you.

I think that the government should take more steps to protect American jobs. I think that the government should do something to correct the trade imbalance and ensure that our manufacturing might and that our technogical prowess are not being sold off to the lowest bidder.

Yes, I think that the government should implement restrictions to prevent offshoring of American tech jobs and manufacturing. Especially to China which IS a hostile nation to the United States. I think that the government should also implement tariffs to prevent products from nations with markets that are closed to American products (like China and India) from importing products to the United States. At the same time I think that employees and unions need to make serious concessions to private sector enterprises so that they can remain profitable, but I don't think that concessions to the level of 3rd world shitholes are in order.

Every time protectionism has been tried, it's proven disastrous to the economy.

Posted: 3/3/2006 1:01:29 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

2. That it is completely reasonable to expect entities engaged in for profit enterprise to provide a benefit to the society as a whole while making a profit.

Making a profit IS a benefit to society!!! Just where do you think profits go? Part of the profits go to share holders which take that money and possibly reinvest it to support NEW job growth. They may choose to spend it on a new boat (supporting people who make boats), take their family for a night out (support local restaurants, stores or movie theaters). SOme of the profits may go to employees who contributed to the profit in the form of stock options, cash bonuses or new benifits. The rest of the money stays with the company where it is either held in reserve to get through lean times or is invested in new technology or expansion.

So many of y'all are sounding like DU'ers. Do y'all realize that the poverty level in the US is equal to the midle class of most of Europe? The notion that outsourcing hurts America is hogwash.

Protectionism is one of the reasons for the Great Depression.

Posted: 3/3/2006 1:04:29 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Those are private companies who have jobs to fill. Non of the governments business where they go too. Free trade works for everyone. If the market is so bleak why is GDP increase while unemployment is decline?

You're on drugs.

ETA - can you translate that sentence in red?

Sorry

I ment to say It is none of the government's business where (a company) chooses to send jobs too

I was in the middle of a conference call when I typed that.

Posted: 3/3/2006 1:53:58 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I have two friends that lost their admin jobs to out sourcing.
First it was manufacturing, now it's administration. We've sold our soul.
Hey bush, stop kissing all the foreign ass and take care of your own. Bush has lost his mind.

Tough shit. Learn to ~~adapt~~ VOTE or you won't survive. You can't single-handedly change global capitalism. I have lost more jobs than I care to recall, but I didn't whine about it and blame .gov - I went out, got the skills I needed to stay competitive, and kept living my life.

fixed it for ya...

Posted: 3/3/2006 2:03:22 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Company profits are up, wages are flat, the cost of everything is going up, nice plan.

In real dollars, household incomes are $10,000 more than they were 30 years ago.

GunLvr

Great, good to hear, there's a bean counter/economist somewhere that is very proud of that fact.

My reality, being a small business owner, in the tech industry, is that my costs are up substantially, I've got no pricing power, I'm competing more and more with overseas firms and H1B visa holders who are pushing prices down. My standard of living is decreasing at an increasing rate - l think things are working out just great. Thanks for that little piece of eco speak, i'm feeling much better.

Posted: 3/3/2006 3:23:23 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Quoted:
In real dollars, household incomes are $10,000 more than they were 30 years ago.

Great, good to hear, there's a bean counter/economist somewhere that is very proud of that fact.

Huh? That number means that ON AVERAGE every household is making $10,000 more than they were making 30 years ago. Everyone should be proud of that, not just "bean counters." That number is adjusted for inflation (hence, "real dollars") which covers the increasing cost of materials, labor, etc.

Sorry to hear that you are not doing all that great, but the economy, as a whole, is doing just fine.

Posted: 3/3/2006 3:30:58 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
So...

...yes or no, do you want the government to FORCE these companies to stop hiring workers overseas?

It sounds like that is what you support, yet you don't quite say it.
I can't blame you.

How about we start with "yes or no do you want the government actively promoting overseas companies taking US jobs?" Bush and his koolaid drinkers seem to think it's ok to actively encourage it. I say no and that the President should be loyal to the American people that elected him and fund the country.

Posted: 3/3/2006 3:47:05 PM EDT

[#39]

The problem I have is always with the double standard. Indians can come here, live and work and they are protected. Can I go to India, get a job, and eat beef? I dobut it. We have been told for years that diversity is important because of some synergistic effect. I never believed this bullshit rational for affirmative action, but now they outsource whole groups to India and guess what? Every damn one of them is an Indian plus half the ones here. They base their headquarters in the US because it's a secure place, while undermining the country that provides the security. Everybody's got a political angle but poor old hetero whitey. We're still not allowed to have a group even though we're 10% of the workforce. Indians can have group though, so that they don't get oppressed. Fair competition is fine with me, but this shit ain't fair.

Posted: 3/3/2006 4:12:21 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
In real dollars, household incomes are $10,000 more than they were 30 years ago.

Great, good to hear, there's a bean counter/economist somewhere that is very proud of that fact.

Huh? That number means that ON AVERAGE every household is making $10,000 more than they were making 30 years ago. Everyone should be proud of that, not just "bean counters." That number is adjusted for inflation (hence, "real dollars") which covers the increasing cost of materials, labor, etc.

Sorry to hear that you are not doing all that great, but the economy, as a whole, is doing just fine.

We'll lets see "real dollars", hmmm, is that like the inflation gauge where they don't count food, energy or health care costs. I don't know what beans the bean counters are counting but I know this much. I make about the same amount of money I made 5 years ago. Over that same five year period all of my expenses have increased substantially. Much of the reason I can't increase my prices relate to the steady flow of H1B guys into this country and offshore competition.

I'm paraphrasing but I believe the president of intel recently said - I'm concerned for my grandkids, I'm concerned because I never have to higher another american if I choose to.

Posted: 3/3/2006 4:28:23 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
We'll lets see "real dollars", hmmm, is that like the inflation gauge where they don't count food, energy or health care costs. I don't know what beans the bean counters are counting but I know this much.

OK. I won't bother you with facts anymore. Let me add an anecdote instead, as it may suit you better: "I used to be able to buy a bean burrito at Taco Bell for $0.99, now they are $1.19. WTF!? Jorge Bush RWAAAR!"

Quoted:
I make about the same amount of money I made 5 years ago. Over that same five year period all of my expenses have increased substantially.

You != The United State Economy

Quoted:
Much of the reason I can't increase my prices relate to the steady flow of H1B guys into this country and offshore competition.

Capitalism and competition are hard. Sounds like you need to innovate a bit instead of bitching about it on ARFCOM.

Meh, what do I know. The company I work for is making money hand over fist. In fact, we just canceled a major outsourcing contract (with one of the largest outsourcing firms) because the Indian programmers were fucking idiots.

eta: fix spelling. I need to outsource my spellchecking work.

Posted: 3/3/2006 4:39:51 PM EDT

[#42]

Times have changed. Americans cost too much to keep hired.

Average American wants:
Large Salary
Health Benefits
Dental
Retirement plans
Days off

Indian worker:
Money

Quick cost benefit analysis:

Hiring American will cost close to 60-70k a year for salary and benefits

Hiring Indian worker will cost 8000 dollars a year.

If you were a business man who would you hire. Hell for 8000 a month, I would hire 10 India nationals instead of 1 American any day.

The bottom line is all that matters here in the Good Ol USA.

Max

Posted: 3/3/2006 4:41:43 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Quoted:
We'll lets see "real dollars", hmmm, is that like the inflation gauge where they don't count food, energy or health care costs. I don't know what beans the bean counters are counting but I know this much.

OK. I won't bother you with facts anymore. Let me add an anecdote instead, as it may suit you better: "I used to be able to buy a bean burrito at Taco Bell for $0.99, now they are $1.19. WTF!? Jorge Bush RWAAAR!"

Quoted:
I make about the same amount of money I made 5 years ago. Over that same five year period all of my expenses have increased substantially.

You != The United State Economy

Quoted:
Much of the reason I can't increase my prices relate to the steady flow of H1B guys into this country and offshore competition.

Capitalism and competition are hard. Sounds like you need to innovate a bit instead of bitching about it on ARFCOM.

Meh, what do I know. The company I work for is making money hand over fist. In fact, we just canceled a major outsourcing contract (with one of the largest outsourcing firms) because the Indian programmers were fucking idiots.

eta: fix spelling. I need to outsource my spellchecking work.

OK Cynic, you're offically off the christmas card list.

You're right Capitalism and competion is hard. I've had to fire 10 of 31 employees. These were all good hard working people with families. They were skilled, talented individuals, they just ended up costing too much. I hope you don't fall into that camp oneday.

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:06:08 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Quoted:
When will the sale of America end??????

Spare me the melodrama.

If you are doing some bullshit, menial job that a guy in New Dehli can do for a third the salary, cry me a river. I'm not going to sit here and lament the loss of customer service, clerical, and put-peg-in-hole manufacturing jobs. We've gotten by with an under-educated workforce for long enough. If it takes a resession or depression to kick people in the ass to get a good education, then so be it.

I'm seeing high dollar IT jobs go out the door, don't discount that.

Money multiplier mean anything to ya? You loose alot more than a 20k job when it goes offshore.

I hate to do it but I do have to agree with your final point - we've spent too much time playing nintendo and too little time studying math. We are getting our ass kicked, we just don't know it yet.

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:22:36 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Company profits are up, wages are flat, the cost of everything is going up, nice plan.

In real dollars, household incomes are $10,000 more than they were 30 years ago.

GunLvr

Oh WOW $10k thats a huge improvement!

Since most families were single income back then, and now two incomes are more common, it means that wages have actually dropped

Posted: 3/3/2006 6:07:47 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
The people in India (and China) are just hard working, law abiding people trying to make a living doing jobs Americans won't do . . . like design FPGAs for $15k/year.

Yep, that's about the size of it.

Bush is totally full of shit. It's not about education; it's not about retraining people, young and old.

You can reeducate yourself until you are blue in the face, but the fact is US employers have no interest in older technology workers. They want young, naive kids willing to work 60-70 hour weeks without the benefit of overtime pay. By the time the kids wise up, they are often in the mid 30's and near the end of their technology career.

In the past, these guys had the option of working mundane shit IT jobs, but now those jobs are going to India by the thousands.

The end game for tech people is now management and sales. And if techies were good at management and sales, they would have gone that route to begin with.

Bush is full of shit and his statements will simply embolden US companies to screw older workers even more. Good job Bush, you dumb fuck.

Posted: 3/3/2006 6:09:26 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
There will always be ditch-digging positions open.

Don't wrinkle your nose at that job. I was doing Directional Boring (Glorified Ditch Digging) and was talking to a guy on another crew. We were laughing about the money we were making. We each were in the 60K range.

"I had a teacher in school" he laughed " Who always said I would be a ditchdigger if I didn't pay attention. Hell! I wouldn't have been so damn worried if I'd knowed what it paid."

Build stuff, Fix Stuff and learn the new stuff and you will be fine. If you think that you are owed 50K to anwser a phone you are delusional.

ETA: This is for the fiber network that makes Global Outsoucring possible. I now maintain the US end of the network. My job can't be outsourced.

Posted: 3/3/2006 6:20:46 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
If the US didn't punish companies, tax profits and create a hostile business environment maybe those companies wouldn't have left.

Hell look what Maryland is doing to Wal-Mart (the nation's largest private employer BTW). You better spend more money on your employees or we are going to take it and redistribute it.

I must be a subconscious anarchist or something. I would love to see Wal Mart tell Maryland, "Look, you're a piss ant state, we sell crap in COUNTIES larger than you. Effective xx-xx-xx we're outta here. We can make up the sales at our new store in Tajikistan."

And at the next National governors Conference, couldn't they get together and pledge to all tell the next Federal mandate to come down the pike to stuff it?

Feds: paint all your road signs blue or we'll cut off your highway funds.

States: so do it. Wipe your arse with the money.

Could be an education mandate (No child left behind, etc) anything. Just tell them to Ef off. States are pussies.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bush defends India job outsourcing (Page 2 of 2)

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