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Posted: 8/13/2001 7:08:43 PM EDT
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth....... or Bang - there it was
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 7:09:19 PM EDT
Evolution
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 7:10:09 PM EDT
Creation
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 7:15:45 PM EDT
tied so far keep em coming...
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 7:29:46 PM EDT
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.......
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Link Posted: 8/13/2001 7:46:00 PM EDT
As far as the universe is concerned: In the beginning God created Heaven and Earth As far as the human race: Creation = Republicans Evolution = Democrats: only something that evolved from tree dwellers, can explain tree huggers and their insane thought's
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 7:47:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2001 7:43:44 PM EDT by prk]
Evolution [b]is[/b] a religion
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:15:29 PM EDT
If God created the "..." then who created God ? and don't tell me that he crated himself or that HE existed forever. I believe that we are the product of genetic experiments and manipulations done by other more evolved races that wanted to spread their genes throughout the Galaxy. They had to adapt each specie to the local environment of that planet. In their quest they have tried more than one experiment (genetic manipulation) to assure the success of the newly vreated specie. This is how we have different races on Earth. I believe that we are still visited by them and they are checking on us (their work) I the future ( if we don't kill eachother) and if we will evolve to the same level of thechnology we will do the same on other planets supporting life...
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:22:43 PM EDT
CREATION
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:25:47 PM EDT
...but then again, based on the documentary "History of the World" by Mel Broks we all were jerked off from the monkeys...
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:31:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:34:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2001 8:33:43 PM EDT by M4]
[img]www.gateman.com/imagesp/evolutio.jpg[/img] Seriously, evolution. After all, what's my choice? A single 2000 year old book of supernatural stories and myths(written by people who didn't know any better.).....OR hundreds of years of dedicated and ground breaking science and millions of years of fossil evidence? It's no contest....now let me get back to my "Darwin" shrine...time to pray.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:37:19 PM EDT
WHOOMP.....there it is! I am going to say neither. It is a process that was both. yes, a BANG of sorts, but Truth is an absolute and was there before there was anything. Zaz
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:39:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NSFJojo: Creation. Because.... Well, If the big bang happened the way it did, life basically either just appeared (which has never ever been seen again) OR we evolved from rocks. Creation makes more sense. Check out www.Drdino.com .
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Well, no, actually, it doesn't. Which science class did YOU take that said we evolved from ROCKS??? If I were you, I would ask for my money back.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:40:39 PM EDT
Evolution. It isn't a belief, it isn't a religion, it's a fact. You can say that God (whichever one you believe in) created the universe, you can say He created the first life if you like, but after that life got here, however it got here, it evolved into the life we have now. There is not a single question about that fact.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:43:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Evolution. It isn't a belief, it isn't a religion, it's a fact. You can say that God (whichever one you believe in) created the universe, you can say He created the first life if you like, but after that life got here, however it got here, it evolved into the life we have now. There is not a single question about that fact.
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Amen to that! Evolution, because that's what they taught me when I got my Bio. degree, and it made a lot more sense than Genesis.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:48:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Evolution. It isn't a belief, it isn't a religion, it's a fact. There is not a single question about that fact.
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My friend, there are actually quite a lot of questions about that "fact." That's why even leading proponents of evolution still call it a theory.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:51:20 PM EDT
Finally a topic with some meat on it - evolution
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:55:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cerberus:
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Evolution. It isn't a belief, it isn't a religion, it's a fact. There is not a single question about that fact.
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My friend, there are actually quite a lot of questions about that "fact." That's why even leading proponents of evolution still call it a theory.
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He does got you there. But everything in Science is a theory at best. That's the beauty of science, it leaves room for growth of the human intellect, unlike certain other ideas. You never hear about the Gravitational 'Fact', it's still just a theory, so don't mince words. A theory is a very solid thing. And there are always a lot of questions about any theory, so that is a good thing, it just allows for further gain of knowledge.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:09:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HKocher: But everything in Science is a theory at best. That's the beauty of science, it leaves room for growth of the human intellect, unlike certain other ideas. You never hear about the Gravitational 'Fact', it's still just a theory, so don't mince words. A theory is a very solid thing. And there are always a lot of questions about any theory, so that is a good thing, it just allows for further gain of knowledge.
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HKocher, well said. You appear to be one of the open minded. A few ideas: I hear about the "Law" of gravity. There are natural laws that are proven beyond theory. They are truly facts. A theory can be a very solid thing and a goo theory is always open to newly discovered information. Knowledge is truly power. The only thing that troubles me about these discussions is that someone will call a believer in God a fool cause that guy got his belief from a book, then say, "I believe what I believe cause I read it in a book." Where is the desire to learn more? Many of the greatest dicoveries in our history have come when a scientist or researcher uncovered new information that forced them to discard a long held theory or belief. Remeber flat earth and Columbus sailing off the edge, etc...?
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:12:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2001 9:08:20 PM EDT by HKocher]
Originally Posted By NSFJojo:
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By NSFJojo: Big Bang: Molten rock because it was like that. Lava cools. It becomes rock. Water "appears" from "Complex chemical reactions" Then life just appears? Chemicals just suddenly mix and a lifeform is made? No. It's mathematically impossible. Math is truth right? [):)] NSF
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It has been repeated in laboratory environments, so yes it is possible. Math doesn't have much to do with it, a lot of Organic Chem, mixed with some good old fashioned Biology. But don't listen to me, I got a D in Organic the first time I took it, but I did get a B in organic II.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:18:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HKocher:
Originally Posted By NSFJojo: Water "appears" from "Complex chemical reactions" Then life just appears? Chemicals just suddenly mix and a lifeform is made? [):)] NSF
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It has been repeated in laboratory environments, so yes it is possible.
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Is this what you meant to say? If so, please document when and where. It would be very interesting to see.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:23:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cerberus: A few ideas: I hear about the "Law" of gravity. There are natural laws that are proven beyond theory. They are truly facts. A theory can be a very solid thing and a goo theory is always open to newly discovered information. Knowledge is truly power. The only thing that troubles me about these discussions is that someone will call a believer in God a fool cause that guy got his belief from a book, then say, "I believe what I believe cause I read it in a book." Where is the desire to learn more? Many of the greatest dicoveries in our history have come when a scientist or researcher uncovered new information that forced them to discard a long held theory or belief. Remeber flat earth and Columbus sailing off the edge, etc...?
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I agree with you, there is never an end to the knowledge and individual or a species can aquire. As far as the 'law of gravity' thing, sorry bad analogy. That's a physics thing, those damn guys think they know how everything works! It's true, we all got our knowledge from some book. I just got my knowledge from a lot of books, including the Bible (K-12 Catholic school). It's hard to look at a dinosaur fossil and believe that the earth is 5000 years old (or somewhere in that area), or look at phylogeny and see how everything fits in pretty well and not believe in evolution. That being said, I don't look down on anyone who hasn't had my science background. I hate to sound like a dork, but science is a pretty cool thing. To late, I sounded like a dork..
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:33:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cerberus: My friend, there are actually quite a lot of questions about that "fact." That's why even leading proponents of evolution still call it a theory.
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No, that shows a lack of knowledge of the scientific definition of the word "theory." A scientific theory doesn't "become" a fact if it gets enough support. A scientific theory is a way of EXPLAINING collected facts. For instance, there is all sorts of proof for the Theory of Relativity, but they didn't change its name to the Fact of Relativity. Evolution is a fact. It happens. There are various theories about exactly HOW it happens, but that doesn't mean the idea of evolution is merely theoretical. Gravity happens, we know it exists, but there are various theories about WHY and HOW it happens. The same is true of evolution.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:39:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HKocher: It's true, we all got our knowledge from some book. I just got my knowledge from a lot of books, including the Bible (K-12 Catholic school). It's hard to look at a dinosaur fossil and believe that the earth is 5000 years old (or somewhere in that area), or look at phylogeny and see how everything fits in pretty well and not believe in evolution. That being said, I don't look down on anyone who hasn't had my science background. I hate to sound like a dork, but science is a pretty cool thing. To late, I sounded like a dork..
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That's what I like about this board, there are some educated people here. I don't know if they covered this in Catholic school, but dinosaurs are mentioned in several places in the Bible, specifically in Job, and a couple other places I am too tired to look up now. The description pretty well fits what we call dinosaurs today. I addition, I just heard a report on the radio recently discussing fossil beds in the US and other places. Seems huge numbers of fossils are found in masses, embedded in sedimentary rock formations that show physical evidence of being formed in some type of sudden water event, like a real serious flood. At least one of these locations is in a fairly high elevation. I will look up more details. I too, think science is pretty cool, more so cause my background is business and I know just enough about science to continue to be amazed. FWIW, I don't believe the earth is just 5000 years old either, just like I don't think God created the earth in six of our 24 hour days. But the physical, fossil and archeological records, partucilarly in light of new discoveries and technology, are confirming that more and more of those "Bible story myths" really occurred.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:40:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NSFJojo: Rik, follow some logic here.
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I would love to...unfortunately there was none to be had.
Big Bang: Molten rock because it was like that. Lava cools. It becomes rock. Water "appears" from "Complex chemical reactions" Then life just appears? Chemicals just suddenly mix and a lifeform is made? No. It's mathematically impossible. Math is truth right?
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Yes, math is the ONLY real truth, but math has nothing to do with the hodgepodge mumbo-jumbo of inanities you just regurgitated. First off, the Big Bang (for which there is much less evidence than evolution BTW) was NOT about "molten rock" appearing. The Big Bang is the expansion of the three dimensions of space and one of time that we experience into the bubble of reality we call our universe. In that spacetime was nothing but incredibly hot ionized gas, mostly hydrogen with some helium. So if you want to take it back to basics, you COULD say we are all basically hot gas...hell, one reading of McUzi.com should tell you THAT is plausible. That hot gas cools and coallesces into stars, which then go through a life-cycle that involves the creation in their core of heavier elements, including the carbon from which we are formed. Those stars then went supernova, spreading those heavier elements through the universe. New stars and planets coallesced from the heavier elements. Water forms naturally when oxygen and hydrogen meet up...it's all over the place, even in the atmosphere of the sun. Where life came from...that's an open question. I don't know. Maybe it occurred without outside help, maybe "God" (whatever meaning you wish to attach to that word) created it. Whatever. However it got here, it evolved from earlier forms to the present forms. There, glad to correct the mistakes made by your science teachers.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:43:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NSFJojo: I won't deny that "evolution" does exist. It does, only their are two types. Micro evolution and Macro evolution. Macro is a lie. Micro is truth.
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No, the lie is the one told to you by the professional liars at the ICR (or whatever they are calling themselves these days). There is NO SUCH THING as a differentiation between micro and macro-evolution. Evolution IS evolution. Enough of what the Creationists call Micro-evolution produces what they call Macro-evolution...in other words, enough small changes produce a different species which can't interbreed with the original one.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:48:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2001 9:46:51 PM EDT by NSFJojo]
Lol. Deleting all my posts. I should know you can never convince someone out of their beliefs. Shame on me, Rik. really. [):)] NSF
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:55:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2001 9:52:32 PM EDT by SILVER SURFER]
Evolution I really would like to belive but have'nt seen the light, yet.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 10:00:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Evolution. It isn't a belief, it isn't a religion, it's a fact. You can say that God (whichever one you believe in) created the universe, you can say He created the first life if you like, but after that life got here, however it got here, it evolved into the life we have now. There is not a single question about that fact.
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Look at me I came from a single celled amoeba that spontaneously spawned into existence. Then I evolved into my cousin the chimp. If we are so closely related the monkeys why don't we give them right like humans after we did come from them. Don't we owe them something?
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 10:03:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NSFJojo: Lol. Deleting all my posts. I should know you can never convince someone out of their beliefs. Shame on me, Rik. really.
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Nonsense. I've already changed my beliefs a few times. I started out a fundamentalist, Biblical literalist, Creationist Christian. Then I went to a less dogmatic Christian, then to a non-Christian Deist and now I am a dogged (but not dogmatic) agnostic.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 10:40:00 PM EDT
Both! Or niether. Depends on your point of view. I'm spiritual, but not religious. I believe we evolved. I also believe God** had a serious hand in it. **((a generic all encompassing term relating to many religions God/Gods/energy/life-force whatever - They are one and the same to me))
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 11:11:23 PM EDT
God made man, but he used a monkey to do it. Are we not men? We are DEVO. D E V O.
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 12:00:02 AM EDT
CREATION Why? I have a hard time believing that we just happened to be. For example, take the human brain. There are scientists that say that the human brain couldn't have evolved, that it is far to complex. I can believe that. There are just too many other things that can't be coincidences. There are lots of new evidence coming out too. Like that a recent fossil that was dated as from 1.8million years ago, turned out to be 32,000 years old. (Hmm, wish I could remember where I saw that, cause it had a bunch others too. I have to look around.) Plus, Stalin, Hitler, Lenin all hailed Darwins hypothesis(theories hypothesis' that have been easily reproduced over and over again, and there is overwhelming evidence for it. evolution doesn't fit that criteria). See this page: [url]http://www.fixedearth.com/the_bible/hlsm.html[/url]
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 3:15:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR308and223: As far as the human race: Creation = Republicans Evolution = Democrats: only something that evolved from tree dwellers, can explain tree huggers and their insane thought's
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ROTFL -BRICKLAYER (i didn't come from some monkey)
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 4:28:40 AM EDT
Creation.
Are we not men? We are DEVO. D E V O.
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Best line of the thread! [:)]
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 4:36:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 4:40:46 AM EDT
Bang - there it was - Evolution.
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 4:41:41 AM EDT
I'd like to clarify something: Evolution is not a theory of cosmogenesis (origin of the universe). Evolution is not a theory of biogenesis (origin of life). Evolution is a theory about the origin of [b]SPECIES[/b]. Now you may return to believing that because one explanation is improbable, an illogical alternative must be true. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 4:43:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2001 4:42:52 AM EDT by garandman]
I'll only make this ONE posts here, 'cuz: 1. my beliefs are well known, 2.NO ONE will change their beliefs becasue of what I post here, and 3. Steyr Aug will want to know why I am FORCING my beliefs on someone [:D] I WILL NOT respond to any responses to this post. OK, now with all the disclaimers out of the way... When it comes to the origin of the automobile, the nuclear submarine and even the toaster, EVERYONE believes that a living, breathing, intelligent, rational, tangible MASTER DESIGNER (i.e. person) (or group of designers) was solely responsible for its creation. The theory of origins is the ONLY area where people abandon this UNIVERSALLY -held belief to believe a non-descript, intangible, non-living "force" created the entire universe, its individual galaxies, its numerous planets, and their countess forms of life, all of which evidence design and BEG for the existence of a living, breathing, intelligent, rational, tangible MASTER DESIGNER. Now, YOU tell me which belief system constitutes a religion. Hint: The correct answer is - BOTH. Its just that evolution takes MORE faith to believe.
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 4:57:25 AM EDT
Do all highly complex tools have a "master designer"? If so, who was the "master designer" of the English language? Surely there had to be [b]some[/b] living, breathing, rational creator who came up with all those inter-related declensions, cases, tenses, conjugations, moods, persons, and hundreds of thousands of words. Gosh, he must have been [i]really[/i] smart! And I'll bet that we didn't have any irregular verbs or silent letters until the first anglophones offended the creator and were cast out of the garden of England. [[0:)]
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 4:58:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Nonsense. I've already changed my beliefs a few times. I started out a fundamentalist, Biblical literalist, Creationist Christian. Then I went to a less dogmatic Christian, then to a non-Christian Deist and now I am a dogged (but not dogmatic) agnostic.
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I am curious as to what caused the change. May I ask?
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 5:21:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Stealth: I'm spiritual, but not religious.
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Exactly. Too often spirituality and religion are used synonymously. Shooting can be a religion. It can also be spiritual. But it is not necessarily both. The same is true for all things. I am not religious, but I take my spirituality very seriously, as I also do Him that I have given my life to. Sorry to change the topic, just a little rant. Now back to Darwin.
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 5:36:32 AM EDT
I believe "God" created the seed of the Universe billions of years ago and let evolution take over. He/She/It's probably been sitting there watching and laughing it's ass off ever since.
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 5:40:33 AM EDT
Just a thought, actually. . . an attempt at looking at it from another angle. Why do there have to be 2 choices. They go pretty well together if you ask me. 1. Who do you think was behind the explosion that created the Universe? Maybe God was shooting the "BIG BANG LIFE STARTER RIFLE" 2. You know in art how all artists have a signature stroke, whereby one can tell their work even without a signature. Well look at skeletal structure for all creatures big and small . . . pretty similar, body cavity with all the parts tucked between rib bones. Skulls attached to a spinal column. Pelvic bones, femurs, it goes on and on. I say we are all CREATIONS of the same artist, and maybe some of them evolved over the millenniums to better adapt, after all what kind of God would he be if he could create us, but not give us the survival mechanisms necessary to adapt to our surroundings? Just my $.50 worth Steven L. out!
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 6:14:51 AM EDT
i agree with drfcolt, God created the atom that sparked and went bang, the rest is evolutional history. i, like the Deists, believe in a Creator to an extent, but also believe that he/she/it hasn't had time for our trivial problems for like 100 million years. i feal bad for those who accept every word of Bible as hard evidence of some fact - it is a story, a collection of metaphors at best. even Catholics and two different members of the clergy have agreed with me on this! as for garandman's example, he is talking about inanimate objects being designed by a creator of some kind, therefore organic matter must have been created by some higher, thinking power - i disagree, and believe that he is once again comparing apples and hondas. but, what gets me thinking over and over again, is this (crude, from memory) example i read from a Solzhenitsen novel: an atheist and a priest are discussing the existence of God. the priest says, "how can you not believe in God? isn't it a great miracle that God has created matter?" the atheist replied, "but isn't it a greater miracle that matter has created a God?"
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 6:32:16 AM EDT
Consider this Earth = 4 billion years old Life form = 3.9 Billion years ago Dinosaurs = 6.5 million years ago Man = 7 species found so far. Oldest remains of man found = 4 million years ago Today’s man as we know him = 65 thousand years old Bible = 10 thousand years old New Testament written = 60 to 80 years after the death of Christ Hydrocarbons plus Amino acids = Life (this is routinely done in laboratories) Hydrocarbons and Amino acids can be found on most all of the plaints in the Milky Way. If there is some form of life on other planets, the big question is, is it dumb or is it capable of improving its own environment? Evolution seems to be the most likely conclusion. Creation by God theory appears to be the first forum of Government to control man (scare tactics). Religion without Science is Blind (Einstein)
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 6:47:34 AM EDT
Perhaps we don't know. Maybe, just maybe, there is stuff we don't know. ...and never will. It was very neat and comforting for ancient Man to say, "The sun? That's the Sun-God. The moon? Oh, that must be the Moon-God." etc. As Man became more skeptical, and science began to answer these questions, he needed a more complex religion. Remember what happened when it was first proposed that the Earth was NOT the center of the universe? You creationists were there with the rack, fire and flaying. "oh, no they were ignorant and misguided, back then!", you say. Well, someday people will look back from the future and say the same thing about you.
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 6:50:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2001 6:48:49 AM EDT by Major-Murphy]
...it is just as arogant for a scientist to claim, with certainty, to know the origin of Man and the universe, as it is for a Creationist to do the same. At least the scientist is humble enough to call it a theory.
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 6:58:27 AM EDT
big bang baby,,,,, yea yea yea
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 7:00:17 AM EDT
For me, I agree with a couple of the individuals on this thread. I do not believe that evolution and creation are indeed mutually exclusive. I did not know of the term Deist before this thread, but it aptly does fit my beliefs. Great converstation and very enjoyable reading for me. Thanks.
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