AH-1Z/UH-1Y Complete Developmental Testing
 
(Source: US Navy via Bell Helicopter; issued March 1, 2006)
   
NAVAIR PATUXENT RIVER, MD --- The H-1 Upgrades Program, which is replacing aging Marine Corps UH-1N and AH-1W aircraft with upgraded and 84-percent identical UH-1Y and AH-1Z aircraft, completed developmental testing Feb. 17.  

Currently, the program is preparing to enter Operational Evaluation as well as to start a third Low-Rate Initial Production lot.  

Two of the five developmental test aircraft have already been transferred to the operational test squadron and are being used to train the Marines who will conduct the operational evaluation. Two aircraft are in final preparation to be transferred to the operational test squadron.  

The first H-1 to fly in the upgraded configuration, AH-1Z-1, is currently preparing for live-fire testing at the Naval Air Warfare Center, China Lake, California.  

Bell Helicopter, the manufacturer of the aircraft, has 16 aircraft on two firm fixed price Low-Rate Initial production contracts worth $185.6 million and $111.4 million respectively. Seven aircraft are already in assembly in Amarillo, Texas.  

Since the first AH-1Z made its maiden flight Dec. 7, 2000, the five aircraft assigned to the H-1 Upgrades program here, tallied a total of 3,324 flight test hours and 3,048 test sorties in the development test and qualification of the AH-1Z and UH-1Y. The aircraft also have fired more than 2,000 2.75-inch rockets, 13,662 rounds of machine gun and automatic cannon ammunition, 11 Hellfire anti-armor missiles and three AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles.  

To date, the H-1 Operational Test Team has put a total of 156.6 flight hours on the aircraft in 92 sorties.  

The AH-1Z Viper and UH-1Y Venom are slated to replace the current fleet of AH-1W and UH-1N aircraft which have been operating at sea with the Marine Corps for many years. The H-1 program provides over 80 percent parts commonality for the two aircraft.  

A change to the program that will build UH-1Ys completely new, rather than remanufacturing them from aging UH-1N's, was approved by the Defense Department's acquisition chief in April 2005. The first new build UH-1Ys will start production in 2006 as part of the third lot of low-rate initial production aircraft. First deliveries of the new aircraft are scheduled to begin in 2008.  

"The program has changed significantly since its inception to significantly enhance the performance and operational effectiveness of the aircraft beyond the original requirement," said Col. Keith Birkholz, the H-1 program manager. "The original program approved by Undersecretary of Defense Kaminski in 1996 provided for upgrades to the aging UH-1N (Huey) and AH-1W (Super Cobra) rotor, transmission, and tail systems, along with an AH-1W cockpit upgrade (the AH-1W suffers from having a very high pilot workload).  

"The current program provides for a common cockpit upgrade for both aircraft," he added, "significantly improved reliability, maintainability, and supportability, training systems compatible with the USMC training vision, along with significant improvements to performance/payload/warfighting capability - well beyond original expectations."  

The resulting systems provide more capability and lower lifecycle costs than was expected from the program at its inception in FY96.  

"Developing and incorporating these new technologies will ultimately provide the Marines with a more capable, survivable and lethal system that's a vast leap in capability beyond the aging platforms they currently operate, and with greatly reduced total lifecycle costs," said Birkholz.  

Among the new technologies adding capability to the aircraft is the Thales-supplied Helmet Mounted Sight and Display system.  

"The helmet mounted sight and display is cutting edge technology in the rotary wing environment and we are the first to attempt full integration of it into an attack platform," Birkholz explained. "The Top Owl was an 'off-the-shelf" option chosen by every pilot who participated in the comparison testing/trade study in 2001. We plan to optimize the Top Owl display module system to meet unique requirements of Marine Corps missions and employment without any changes to the aircraft interfaces, helmet tracker or software."  

Thales recently received a contract to optimize Top Owl optics and displays for the USMC mission, according to Birkholz. Program officials expect to be ready to field the optimized Top Owl concurrent with the UH-1Y fleet introduction scheduled for FY08.  

"Modifications we are making to the helmet will incorporate alternative night vision concepts based on existing and proven technology while retaining the extensive integration of the Top Owl system already completed," Birkholz added.  

PMA-276 and the H-1 Integrated Test Team now have more Top Owl time than any other user.  

By 2018, the Marine Corps will have procured 100 UH-1Y Venoms and 180 AH-1Z Vipers.  

UH-1Y

So what's the MDS standard have to say once you pass Z?  AA?

Thats all the farther along they are?  I thought they were a lot closer to deployment than this.

Quoted: www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/Fotos/bell/UH-1YFF.JPG UH-1Y

We still use Hueys?

Quoted: Quoted: www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/Fotos/bell/UH-1YFF.JPG UH-1Y We still use Hueys?

They're new manufacture ones.  Barely related to the Vietnam era models.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/Fotos/bell/UH-1YFF.JPG UH-1Y We still use Hueys? They're new manufacture ones.  Barely related to the Vietnam era models.

So we dont use them anymore but now we are going to use them again?  (I know they are different)

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/Fotos/bell/UH-1YFF.JPG UH-1Y We still use Hueys? They're new manufacture ones.  Barely related to the Vietnam era models. So we dont use them anymore but now we are going to use them again?  (I know they are different)

Only the US Army does not use them anymore.  The USMC never quit, UH-1s since 1965 and AH-1s since 1970.

And acutally some of the N/W airframes DO date to the late Vietnam War,  But they are unrecognizable inside apart from the frame.

Probably those old airframes will not survive this round.  Due to the high number of hours put on airframes since the WOT and Iraq campaign started, there are going to be very few airframes this time that are going to be suitable for conversion to the Z/Y standard.  They are buying a lot of new airframes.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/Fotos/bell/UH-1YFF.JPG UH-1Y We still use Hueys? They're new manufacture ones.  Barely related to the Vietnam era models. So we dont use them anymore but now we are going to use them again?  (I know they are different) Only the US Army does not use them anymore.  The USMC never quit, UH-1s since 1965 and AH-1s since 1970. And acutally some of the N/W airframes DO date to the late Vietnam War,  But they are unrecognizable inside apart from the frame. Probably those old airframes will not survive this round.  Due to the high number of hours put on airframes since the WOT and Iraq campaign started, there are going to be very few airframes this time that are going to be suitable for conversion to the Z/Y standard.  They are buying a lot of new airframes.

So its like the B-52, they look the same but have basically had every part replaced and nothing of the original machine remains.  Cool.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/Fotos/bell/UH-1YFF.JPG UH-1Y We still use Hueys? They're new manufacture ones.  Barely related to the Vietnam era models. So we dont use them anymore but now we are going to use them again?  (I know they are different) Only the US Army does not use them anymore.  The USMC never quit, UH-1s since 1965 and AH-1s since 1970. And acutally some of the N/W airframes DO date to the late Vietnam War,  But they are unrecognizable inside apart from the frame. Probably those old airframes will not survive this round.  Due to the high number of hours put on airframes since the WOT and Iraq campaign started, there are going to be very few airframes this time that are going to be suitable for conversion to the Z/Y standard.  They are buying a lot of new airframes. So its like the B-52, they look the same but have basically had every part replaced and nothing of the original machine remains.  Cool.

My amazement is that they still had the tooling and jigs that allowed them to produce something that still is recognizeable as a H-1 after all these years.

I dont think Boeing could build us a new run of B-52's today, even if we dedicated the whole defense budget to it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/Fotos/bell/UH-1YFF.JPG UH-1Y We still use Hueys? They're new manufacture ones.  Barely related to the Vietnam era models. So we dont use them anymore but now we are going to use them again?  (I know they are different) Only the US Army does not use them anymore.  The USMC never quit, UH-1s since 1965 and AH-1s since 1970. And acutally some of the N/W airframes DO date to the late Vietnam War,  But they are unrecognizable inside apart from the frame. Probably those old airframes will not survive this round.  Due to the high number of hours put on airframes since the WOT and Iraq campaign started, there are going to be very few airframes this time that are going to be suitable for conversion to the Z/Y standard.  They are buying a lot of new airframes. So its like the B-52, they look the same but have basically had every part replaced and nothing of the original machine remains.  Cool. My amazement is that they still had the tooling and jigs that allowed them to produce something that still is recognizeable as a H-1 after all these years. I dont think Boeing could build us a new run of B-52's today, even if we dedicated the whole defense budget to it.

We could, and if done on a true comercial basis it wouldn't even come close to taking the entire air force budget even, let alone the DOD as a whole.

Why would you though? The B-2 tooling is in existence and waiting for an order now, and I am told that Boeing maintains the B-1 tooling in storage, for what reason I'm not sure but there you go.

evening bump

So........

Who would win in a fight: The new Cobra or the Apache?

Quoted: So........ Who would win in a fight: The new Cobra or the Apache?

the cobra because she is one skinny bitch. the apache cant do all the fancy flying shit the cobra can.

and even if its a myth  according to some iraqis all you need to take out an apache is a bolt action gun.

Quoted: Quoted: So........ Who would win in a fight: The new Cobra or the Apache? the cobra because she is one skinny bitch. the apache cant do all the fancy flying shit the cobra can.

If I recally correctly, the Cobra's rotor head cant take negative G's, while the Apache's can.

Kharn

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So........ Who would win in a fight: The new Cobra or the Apache? the cobra because she is one skinny bitch. the apache cant do all the fancy flying shit the cobra can. If I recally correctly, the Cobra's rotor head cant take negative G's, while the Apache's can. Kharn

well they both can go upside down so im not sure on the g's.
would be an interesting match up though.

Wow.  That Huey looks like it has a pancake on its head.

So educate me here.  Why would the USMC go with the Cobras when they could have Apaches instead?

What makes the Cobra preferable?

-K

I loved flying in Huey's

Whump whump whump.......

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So........ Who would win in a fight: The new Cobra or the Apache? the cobra because she is one skinny bitch. the apache cant do all the fancy flying shit the cobra can. If I recally correctly, the Cobra's rotor head cant take negative G's, while the Apache's can. Kharn

That was the deal with the Whiskey Cobra's.  They were limited with their two blade rotor head assembly.  The Zulu is an entirely different animal, it'll fly the wings off of any other attack helicopter with possible exception to the KA-50.

Quoted: So educate me here.  Why would the USMC go with the Cobras when they could have Apaches instead? What makes the Cobra preferable? -K

Apache does not have a Naval variant.   Meaning the AH1 series has been manufactured with Corrosion resistance to sea air and is sealed up to protect from that environment.

The Apache I can only assume was not intended for Sea to Shore use and the modifications necessary to make it Sea worthy would be cost prohibitive.

Quoted: Why would you though? The B-2 tooling is in existence and waiting for an order now, and I am told that Boeing maintains the B-1 tooling in storage, for what reason I'm not sure but there you go.

Because some days it rains, on those days you need to vaporize the rain.

I'd imagine that the price they'd get if they sold the tooling (big assumption, IF the .gov allowed them to) isn't nearly as good as the price they'd get IF they're ever asked to build 20 more.  I also bet there's a bit of frugal squirrel mentality to it.

The new Huey looks like a starship.  

EDIT: The only thing I'm wondering is if the new Cobra rotor will create a storage problem on the Marine's boats.  Two blades takes up less room on in the bay than four.  There's probably something I don't know though.

Quoted: The new Huey looks like a starship.

Thats because its got the tail boom, motors, and rotor assembly right off the ZULU.

Quoted: So........ Who would win in a fight: The new Cobra or the Apache?

The crew that saw the other first.  There have been over 50 Cobra Vs Mi-24 Hind engagments in real combat.  Usually the crew who came out on top sited the enemy first.  

Barring that, the crew with the better training would probably win.  That would be the Marines, regardless of what they are flying because they seriously train air-to-air in helos.  No one else comes close to the training.

It's got less to do with the aircraft, than it does with the crew.

Quoted: So educate me here.  Why would the USMC go with the Cobras when they could have Apaches instead? What makes the Cobra preferable? -K

Cost.

There is a navalized version of the AH-64 in service with the Brit Royal Marines.  There's no problem with the Apache in a naval enviroment.  The USMC spent all their aviation funds keeping the V-22 alive, and have therefore taken a different approach to things and kept upgrading the AH-1's.  Over the years that's meant less and less Cobras, but they needed less and less over the years so it's worked out alright.

The H-1s have a 80% commonality, which is pretty important aboard a ship.  That's much more efficient logistically than a AH-64/UH-60 equipped squadron would be.  That's a huge factor in being afloat.

The USMC Cobras were newer and twin engine to begin with, so they had better potential to upgrade.  The Army had taken it's single engine Cobra to the limit of it's potential with the F model with the C-nite mod.  After that, it was cheaper for the Army to buy new Apaches than to do any kind of rebuild on it's much older, higher time Cobras that still would requrie major work to get away from the single engine configuration.  It was the same deal with the Hueys.  The USMC H-1's still had upgrade potential, but the older Army versions were at the end of the line.

Quoted: Yankee Cobra ... that ain't gonna' make some people happy.

AH-1 Zulu, not Yankee.

So we are not getting the comanche?

Well since the Cobra got all the way to the Z varient, what would be the next one in line after that?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So........ Who would win in a fight: The new Cobra or the Apache? the cobra because she is one skinny bitch. the apache cant do all the fancy flying shit the cobra can. If I recally correctly, the Cobra's rotor head cant take negative G's, while the Apache's can. Kharn That was the deal with the Whiskey Cobra's.  They were limited with their two blade rotor head assembly.  The Zulu is an entirely different animal, it'll fly the wings off of any other attack helicopter with possible exception to the KA-50.

The Apache can do more of the "fancy flying shit".  The AH-64A is slighty ahead of the AH-1Z in performance.  In real life, there is no difference.   The AH-64D is slightly behind the AH-1Z in performance because of it's heavier weight and other factors (more crap sticking out mainly).  Again, in real life there is no difference really.  We're talking a knot here, a ft/sec there, etc.

Block three AH-64D's will have retrofitted druing reset or manufacture new components and new blades that will give more lift and speed to the Longbow.  That will probably put it ahead of the Zulu, but again, probably not by any great margin.  The big advantage to the Zulu is it has a better cockpit layout and some newer systems, but little growth potential left.  It can gain another thousand pounds over the USMC version, but that's about it.  The big advantage to the AH-64 is it just started to scratch the surface of it's upgrade potential.  Right now, they're combat equals.

While the Zulu is a one of the better gunships around, it is just in there with the rest of them like the Apache, Tiger, etc.  It's still slower than an Mi-24 Hind.

Quoted: While the Zulu is a one of the better gunships around, it is just in there with the rest of them like the Apache, Tiger, etc.  It's still slower than an Mi-24 Hind.

You are referring to cruising speed yes? I don't think you'd be implying that a Hind can out-manuver either a Cobra or Apache...

Quoted: So........ Who would win in a fight: The new Cobra or the Apache?

Which one's got radar?  

AH-64D Longbow Apache at range.

I LOVE IT!

Quoted: My amazement is that they still had the tooling and jigs that allowed them to produce something that still is recognizeable as a H-1 after all these years. I dont think Boeing could build us a new run of B-52's today, even if we dedicated the whole defense budget to it.

Huey's unlike B52s do have a bit of .civ or even Furin Govt uses.  I work with HueyIIs and N Models at present.

Quoted: There have been over 50 Cobra Vs Mi-24 Hind engagments in real combat.

When/where?

Quoted: Quoted: There have been over 50 Cobra Vs Mi-24 Hind engagments in real combat. When/where?

I was incorrect. There were 56 helo vs helo engagments in the Iran-Iraq war, 10 of them were Cobra vs Hind.  The results were ten Cobras shot down for the loss of six Hinds.  

You don't get "top gun" type dogfights in helo vs helo.  It can start out fast but quickly develops into a turning fight that slows down to hovering behind cover and really is similar to a tank vs tank situation, just with very FAST tanks. It's also a combined arms fight, just like any that's really in the ground battle space.  So you use artillery, ADA, whatever to help you out.  You don't get helos scrambling to fight other helos where they're going to use loops and rolls and somehow one aircraft has some areodynamic advantage over another and will win.  It's not an F-15 vs Mig-21 deal.  In the enviroment you're actually fighting (50ft or less off the ground at 150kts or less airspeed) most helos, even the last generation ones, are pretty equal.  You don't get "the F-22 will knock down 6 F-15s at once" kinda crap because the enviroment that you're fighting in doesn't allow for that.  It doesn't matter a hill of beans if your Cobra can loop, or your Apache roll.  It does matter that your Hind or Havoc can haul ass, and that your Cobra can turn tight at low speed, and has a gyrostabilized gun with an optical sight that's connected to your helmet, and that your Apache has a 360deg coverage with it's own radar in air-detection mode.  

What matters the most is who is trained at it and who isn't.  The USMC trains at it.  The JGSDF (Japanese Army) trains at it (in fact all their AH-64's and OH-1 recons are to be armed with air-to-air missles).  Pretty much no one else does with any real effort.  The Zulu has a better chance, not because it's a better aircraft than the others, but because it's manned by aviators that are trained in air-to-air and the aircraft is equal enough in the enviroment.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So........ Who would win in a fight: The new Cobra or the Apache? the cobra because she is one skinny bitch. the apache cant do all the fancy flying shit the cobra can. If I recally correctly, the Cobra's rotor head cant take negative G's, while the Apache's can. Kharn well they both can go upside down so im not sure on the g's. would be an interesting match up though.

Whisky Cobra is limited in max descent, e.g. if descending a crestline, to prevent unloading the rotor head. Dunno if they fixed that in the Zulu/Yankee.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So........ Who would win in a fight: The new Cobra or the Apache? the cobra because she is one skinny bitch. the apache cant do all the fancy flying shit the cobra can. If I recally correctly, the Cobra's rotor head cant take negative G's, while the Apache's can. Kharn well they both can go upside down so im not sure on the g's. would be an interesting match up though. Whisky Cobra is limited in max descent, e.g. if descending a crestline, to prevent unloading the rotor head. Dunno if they fixed that in the Zulu/Yankee.

It's -.5 to +2.8 G on the Zulu as per Bell.  I don't know what the Whiskey model's range was.

The four balded system isn't fully articulated, like an Apache, or AH-6, etc.  It's a hingeless, beringless deal.  It's pretty interesting, and there's 71% less parts.  I'm sure it helps maneuverability, but I don't know how it compares to a fully articulated unit.

ETA: with crestlines you just bank and turn as you descend, so you are always loading the rotor.  At least that's what we did in Hueys.  Often there's a way to do what you need to do, even if you can't do it the easy way.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So........ Who would win in a fight: The new Cobra or the Apache? the cobra because she is one skinny bitch. the apache cant do all the fancy flying shit the cobra can. If I recally correctly, the Cobra's rotor head cant take negative G's, while the Apache's can. Kharn

Not the new rotor system. I have heard second hand accounts of the Bell semi-rigid that include loops and rolls.

The new 4 bladed Bell rotors are claimed to be the smoothest on earth and the pilots I talk to agree. (Bell 407 and 430)

Quoted: ETA: with crestlines you just bank and turn as you descend, so you are always loading the rotor.  At least that's what we did in Hueys.  Often there's a way to do what you need to do, even if you can't do it the easy way.

Exactly how they described it to me. They considered it nothing more than a quirk of the system.

Quoted: Quoted: So we are not getting the comanche? That program was canceled quite a while ago.

Yeah, I was being sarcastic.  All that super performance, leap ahead technology, etc, what a waste.  Instead we go evolutionary rather than revolutionary.  I just hope we always have the best gear for our guys.

IIRC Apache Longbow is designed to transmit data from one radar to other helicopters, and can receive information from AWACS, JSTARS, and other sorts of radar systems.  It is not a "who sees who first" type of combat.  Has to do with connectivity and common operational picture and all that.

I'd bet on the longbow, myself, unless we are talking assymetrical threats like guys with AK47s on rooftops. Then I'd hope you have KWs around. Much better 360 degree visual scanning ability then either airframe

www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/show_mag.cgi?pub=rw&mon=0701&file=0701h1.htm


Why not Apache?

Some critics have raised the point that, with all the new technology going into the Super Cobra rebuild program, the Marine Corps should just buy the Army’s Apache attack helicopter.

Problem is, the Apache is designed primarily as a tank killer—and it’s one of the best in the world. The Marine Corps doesn’t need, nor can it afford, an attack helicopter like the Apache or the even more expensive Comanche, which is still years away from production. With the H-1 program, the Marines will pay about $9 million in flyaway costs per copy, a bargain basement price by any standard.

In addition, the Marines say the much heavier Apache is too cumbersome to operate efficiently in the Marines’ expeditionary warfare environment.

The H-1 program also saves money in training costs. Even though both the Huey and the Super Cobra will undergo massive reworking, the Marine Corps will not have to train its pilots on a new helicopter, a fact that will save the Corps even more money.

Aren't these airframes nearing the end of their service life...?

Quoted: Aren't these airframes nearing the end of their service life...?

If you go back to the first page, it said that they were getting all new airframes.

There are some currently in Iraq that were built in the early 70's for Vietnam- and YES those individuals will reach the end of their service lives and probably not be rebuilt for what would be the third or even fourth time.

Even the newest once though were built during the Reagan administration.

Quoted: forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=280711&d=1140812127 I LOVE IT!

That is such a cool poster.

Quoted: Quoted: Aren't these airframes nearing the end of their service life...? If you go back to the first page, it said that they were getting all new airframes. There are some currently in Iraq that were built in the early 70's for Vietnam- and YES those individuals will reach the end of their service lives and probably not be rebuilt for what would be the third or even fourth time. Even the newest once though were built during the Reagan administration.

The new airframes are only for the Huey portion (which is also reflected in the article) .  The Hueys have had upgrades, but nothing to deal with airframe issues on the order that the Cobras had with the Whiskey.  The result is the Hueys are just too worn out to be worth rebuilding.  Once you open up an aircraft with those kind of hours, it ends up costing more.  Because they need the ones they have flying now for combat, and Bell still makes the airframe, it's much easier, faster, less expensive, and less of an impact on combat rediness to buy the Hueys new.

The Cobra airframes are still refrubs.  There are enough good airframes to use that it's cost effective, and they were more extensively rehabbed when they went through the Whiskey mods.