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Posted: 3/1/2006 1:17:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 9:44:05 PM EDT by danpass]
How did you do?

What preps did you go thru?

How long to prep?

I'm going to the bookstore tonight and hoped to get some input for recommended reading .


dan



edit: What other recommendations concerning law school?

Got a BS MechEng and looking at Corporate Law. Just turned 33yrs old.


edit2: Would like to hear your Law School stories both good and bad. and ...

Was it worth it? Both personally and financially (no details, just a plus/minus type of thing)


Edit3:What about being a Patent Agent? I understand the Patent Bar is thought to be difficult so no illusions there. I also know it can be done. This way I can get out of 3 yrs of law school and still be in the field (so to speak )
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 1:22:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 1:22:46 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 1:23:28 PM EDT
No prep other than reading the princeton review, 168.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 1:25:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2006 5:36:54 AM EDT by JohnTheTexican]
I took it in '88 or '89 back when 48 was the highest possible score. I got a 48 (top 0.02%). (But, IIRC, based on the way the scores were scaled, I would have had a 52 if it didn't cut off at 48.)

The only prep I did was a course that I think was called "LSAT Intensive Review" in Austin Texas.
I think this is the course I took. If it's the same one, they did a pretty good job.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 1:46:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 1:47:50 PM EDT by jthuang]
Damn, it's been so long I forgot my score. I'm the same age as you and also with an engineering background. I ended up in corporate law as well, although they tried to convert me into a patent lawyer. I found patent work too boring, although the money is a LOT better in patent law.

Whatever my LSAT score, it got me into my law school of choice (Penn). I took the test in 1993-4. My prep was limited to self-study with Barron's and other study guides.

I found that practice tests were the best form of preparation. The more realistic you make the practice run, the better you will do in the real test so make sure you take those tests under time pressure, away from your nice cozy office, etc.

Link Posted: 3/1/2006 2:07:48 PM EDT
It really depends on your style of learning. Do you learn best by listening to someone else explain things? If so, consider taking an LSAT prep course. Do you learn best by digging into a textbook on your own? Look into a self-study course if that's the case.

Regardless of your preferred method of learning, I'd suggest taking as many practice tests as you can. Get one of those books that has dozens of actual LSAT exams from previous years. Go through a bunch of them at your own pace until you're very comfortable with all of the different question types. Then go through as many of them as you can under testing conditions until you're scores are consistently above your target goal for the actual exam.

Once you're accepted to law school, nobody cares what your LSAT score was. I've never had a client ask me what I got on the LSAT.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 2:22:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 2:25:49 PM EDT by happycynic]

Originally Posted By danpass:
How did you do?

169 (top 2%)

What preps did you go thru?

Stopped going to class for two weeks. Locked myself in the basement of the library with a big ol book of 12 prior tests. Did all of them, and a bunch under test conditions.

How long to prep?

Till you start hitting the same score all the time. After the first two tests, my scores starting becoming pretty much the same. It was actually a nice little bell curve between 167 and 173.

I'm going to the bookstore tonight and hoped to get some input for recommended reading .


dan

ETA: What other recommendations concerning law school?

If you want a top ten lawschool, no substitute for University of Virginia. Of all the big names, it has the fewest assholes per capita (yes, this is a big concern in law school). However, if you want to clerk for the Supreme Court or be a law professor, go to Harvard or Yale. If you don't go to a top 20 lawschool, go to one in the city you want to work in.

Got a BS MechEng and looking at Corporate Law. Just turned 33yrs old.



Edited to add: Take a Kaplan course. I didn't do it, but I taught for them one summer (they hire anyone who gets a 165 and up). When I went over the teaching materials I realized that I was doing a lot of questions the hard way. They have some neat tricks, especially on the logic games section. If you draw your chart the right way on that section it can really help.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 2:48:59 PM EDT
I took the LSAT about 4 years ago.

I took a Princeton Review course (I would have preferred Kaplan but the Princeton Review was the best option). I took the summer one and I spent nearly all of the time between the end of classes and the LSAT studying. I studied at least 3 or 4 hours a day, sometimes more.

My score was not as good as I would have liked, but it still was decent.

Concerning law school, the best advice that I can give you is to choose the school that fits you best and not necessarily the cheapest or the best one. When I went to visit the University of Richmond, I came away feeling that it was definately the right place for me. I left more money on the table at some other schools, but I don't really regret that decision. I have enjoyed the law school experience.

Feel free to ask me anything you want about the law school experience and I will answer the best I can. I am currently in my third year of law school and will graduate in 2 months. I went straight from undergrad to law school, but I am good friends with a person who is about to turn 32 with 2 kids and might also be able to help you. His board name is Trio if you want to contact him.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 3:21:07 PM EDT
The important thing is to take as many practice tests as you can. Take them under test conditions. Have a friend time you. Do it somewhere quiet and free of distraction.

I used Princeton. It helped. The games section of the test is a nightmare, so spend as much time with it as you can.

My overall score wasn't stellar, but it was enough to get me into law school. I ended up with a 3.65 GPA my first semester. Doing well in law school has nothing to do with how you do on the LSAT. The LSAT is just part of what gets you in. Studying your ass off is what keeps you there.

Good luck, and go get a drink after the test. It will make you feel better.

Link Posted: 3/1/2006 4:26:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 4:38:06 PM EDT by danpass]
Awesome responses. Thanks for taking the time.

I just came back with meeting with an attorney (Admiralty) friend, Jim. Our conversation pretty much mirrored the responses so far.

He was pretty big on taking the prep course. I can be pretty well disciplined when going after what I want. (But then again: self discipline = remembering what you want). So I don't see too much of an issue concerning the test. I maxed out the ASVAB and that was self-study (I know the LSAT will be very different)

One of the things he mentioned when he looks for a new Associate is: Practical experience. In his mind clerking is a great way to get this experience, running a file, etc. He looks only at Univ of Miami and Tulane grads (but thats because of the Admiralty curriculums).

He also mentioned that its hard work and such (expected) and can be cut-throat. One the things he said is "clients want you to say the things they are too cowardly to say" (his words ), so it can be tough in those respects (expected).


Definitely looking at Corporate Law, likely Patent Law

Originally Posted By jthuang:
Damn, it's been so long I forgot my score. I'm the same age as you and also with an engineering background. I ended up in corporate law as well, although they tried to convert me into a patent lawyer. I found patent work too boring, although the money is a LOT better in patent law.


Can beat good money .

Jim went Admiralty and his roommate went Patent and both are doing well. Maybe I can clerk for the Patent guy .

The challenge is that Univ of Miami (private) is 20-30k per year and Florida International University's Law program (state tuition) is extremely new, very likely not yet Accredited. What options for scholarships/grants (vs loans )

I don't really have an issue moving but it certainly would be easier to just stay put right now and commute.

Thanks again for all the responses, keep them coming .
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 4:35:30 PM EDT
I got an 87 (top 87%)

Link Posted: 3/1/2006 4:49:43 PM EDT

What recommendations for beginner books?

For example:

Law School Confidential (Revised Edition): A Complete Guide to the Law School Experience: By Students, for Students (Paperback)

10 Actual, Official LSAT PrepTests

Do these relate at all to the experience?



thanks again,
dan
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 5:07:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 5:08:34 PM EDT by mikejohnson]
I looked into law school last year. After finding what experienced lawyers made I said F* that! I already make double what they make with 10 years experience. Example: Senior Corporate lawyer at large corp here in Dallas pays $45-60k/yr! WTF? "Why so low?" I asked. Well, my DA friend said starting lawyers make in the low $30k! WTF? Apparently there are a lot of unemployed lawyers out there, and unless you own a successful firm or are partner in a successful firm, then you won't make jack....so all we ever hear about are the successful lawyers...I can take my chances with my PE license and start my own electronics enginering firm and probably come out ahead compared to going to law school and starting over. Now, IP law, according to the SMU advisor does not require a law degree - all I have to do is pass the patent bar....I thought about that, but who would hire someone with NO basic background in law?
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 7:04:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:
I looked into law school last year. After finding what experienced lawyers made I said F* that! I already make double what they make with 10 years experience. Example: Senior Corporate lawyer at large corp here in Dallas pays $45-60k/yr! WTF? "Why so low?" I asked. Well, my DA friend said starting lawyers make in the low $30k! WTF? Apparently there are a lot of unemployed lawyers out there, and unless you own a successful firm or are partner in a successful firm, then you won't make jack....so all we ever hear about are the successful lawyers...I can take my chances with my PE license and start my own electronics enginering firm and probably come out ahead compared to going to law school and starting over. Now, IP law, according to the SMU advisor does not require a law degree - all I have to do is pass the patent bar....I thought about that, but who would hire someone with NO basic background in law?



Law has a lot of extremes. An associate at one of the 20 largest Dallas firms will start at $100k+. But, in order to do that you need to have graduated from a top ten lawschool or in the top 5% of your class at a local law school. As for $30k, that would be for a starting state DA. Federal DA's can make 100k after a few years.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 7:10:36 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 8:17:42 PM EDT
Once you're in law school, be prepared for the workload, especially your first year. Part of it is hazing on the part of faculty, and part of it is just getting used to what you're studying. First semester will be the worst. Second semester gets a little easier because you get into a groove.

You probably won't get to pick any of your classes your first year. They'll most likely hand you a schedule. Some of the subject matter you won't like, so it'll be harder to absorb.

Law school can be satisfying. You get so much thrown at you that you don't know which end is up. Later, you'll likely come to a sudden realization that you know more than you thought you did. It's kind of an odd feeling.

Best part is, you learn to protect yourself (Contracts, Property, Torts, Criminal Law, etc.). Whatever you end up doing in practice (assuming that you do go into practice), it's harder for people to fuck with you.

Good luck.

Link Posted: 3/2/2006 5:07:00 AM EDT
bump for day crew
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 5:19:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By danpass:
How did you do?

169 (top 2%)

What preps did you go thru?

Stopped going to class for two weeks. Locked myself in the basement of the library with a big ol book of 12 prior tests. Did all of them, and a bunch under test conditions.

How long to prep?

Till you start hitting the same score all the time. After the first two tests, my scores starting becoming pretty much the same. It was actually a nice little bell curve between 167 and 173.

I'm going to the bookstore tonight and hoped to get some input for recommended reading .


dan

ETA: What other recommendations concerning law school?

If you want a top ten lawschool, no substitute for University of Virginia. Of all the big names, it has the fewest assholes per capita (yes, this is a big concern in law school). However, if you want to clerk for the Supreme Court or be a law professor, go to Harvard or Yale. If you don't go to a top 20 lawschool, go to one in the city you want to work in.

Got a BS MechEng and looking at Corporate Law. Just turned 33yrs old.



Edited to add: Take a Kaplan course. I didn't do it, but I taught for them one summer (they hire anyone who gets a 165 and up). When I went over the teaching materials I realized that I was doing a lot of questions the hard way. They have some neat tricks, especially on the logic games section. If you draw your chart the right way on that section it can really help.




Happycynic's advice is spot on, except Univ. of Michigan is better than UVA.

In addition to Happycynic's advice, I'll add this tidbit that was the best advice I got before going to law school: When you interview for a 2d year summer clerkship, all the employers are going to see is your first year grades. Do whatever it takes to kick ass your first year: become a monk, give up guns, anything. You can slack off a little the last two years but the first year is critical.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 5:22:01 AM EDT
I am preparing for the June test now. You should look at Powerscore. There Logic Games bible is good. I have the Kaplan book and have just about finished it. Its ok but additional practice test with explanations seems to be a must have. Time is really the issue for me so far. Goodluck.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 5:41:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2006 7:03:52 AM EDT by danpass]

Originally Posted By happycynic:

<snip>

Edited to add: Take a Kaplan course. I didn't do it, but I taught for them one summer (they hire anyone who gets a 165 and up). When I went over the teaching materials I realized that I was doing a lot of questions the hard way. They have some neat tricks, especially on the logic games section. If you draw your chart the right way on that section it can really help.



I was doing some practice tests early yesterday and the first thing I found myself doing is making up a chart

What are these tips and tricks you speak of ?

Are they available in the bookstore books or only the 'classroom' books?

I very briefly went to BN last night but did not flip thru the prep books to see.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 5:44:57 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 6:21:24 AM EDT


Where can I download "The Firm" ?


I'll pick it up later anyway but want to download it now
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 6:54:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Law has a lot of extremes. An associate at one of the 20 largest Dallas firms will start at $100k+. But, in order to do that you need to have graduated from a top ten lawschool or in the top 5% of your class at a local law school. As for $30k, that would be for a starting state DA. Federal DA's can make 100k after a few years.



+1 ... a lot of it is dependent upon locale and then upon the position.

The usual target is a job at a big law firm in a big city. I work in Philadelphia so those are really only the numbers that I know. Get a job at a big law firm here and you'll be making $110-130k from the start. The numbers go down materially for in-house counsel at large corporations, and then down significantly more for jobs at medium/smaller firms.

The bottom of the pay scale is with governmental positions like at the District Attorney's office, which are probably looking at $40-50k per year and they rarely hire straight out of school anyway. It's a shame but hey Philly's mayor isn't good at managing money. He took a huge budget surplus from the previous mayor and ran it into the ground over a short two terms.

How does one get a job at a big law firm in a big city? Well, your best shots are to: (1) graduate from a top law school (think Ivies or other top 20); or (2) graduate with honors & law review/journal from a prominent local school.

The reason for (2) is that firms like to hire from local schools. They realize that people graduating from local law schools are more likely to stay in the area. Hiring attorneys is expensive. They don't want to hire some person who has no connection to the area because it's unlikely that person will want to stay there long-term (meaning the person is probably fishing for a job or is just looking for a band-aid to cover them until they find a job in their preferred location).

The top 20/Ivies can get away with this because of name-power, but if you have no connections to the area, your resume is likely to hit the shredder as soon as they get it. So think ahead - if you're not anticipating going to a top 20 school, make sure you want to work in the area surrounding your law school. So if you don't want to work in Philadelphia, do not attend Villanova, Temple, Rutgers (Camden) or Drexel Law. Those schools rarely have staying power outside of the Philadelphia area. Go to a law school in the area where you want to work!

First year grades are critical, as someone has already mentioned. Your 2nd year summer position (most often this will be a summer associate position at a big law firm) will often lead to a permanent offer from the same employer when you graduate from law school. As you will interview for that summer position in the fall of your second year, the only real grades they will see are your first year grades. So become a hermit, give up pie, do whatever it takes (except resort to backstabbing -- that should be below any ethical person) to get good grades as a 1L.

Speaking of backstabbing, it happens. My roommate had it happen to him -- well, I should say it was attempted backstabbing. I say 'attempted" because the guy who tried it didn't have the clout and it ended up failing -- and making him look like a pathetic ass. Goes to show that if you're gonna stab someone in the back, make sure you kill them -- otherwise you really have egg on your face.

Most 1Ls land non-paying clerkships (with judges) as their summer job for the first year. Yes, you will most likely be working for free ... so get used to it. Some get really lucky and get summer associate positions at law firms (which are paid, the same as a first year associate) but that is very rare. Most firms will not hire 1Ls because they know the 1Ls are likely to become a permanent associate at the place they go to for their second year summer.

I haven't read either of those books that you cite, so I can't say whether they reflect the true law school experience. I haven't seen The Firm, nor have I seen The Paper Chase. Maybe I oughta Netflix those. I also missed that reprehensible reality show called First Years, which was a reality show about a group of 1Ls. Law school doesn't make for good TV.

As a person with an engineering background, one of the biggest adjustments that I had to make was to get away from the concept that there always was a single, definitive answer for every problem. As an EE, I was trained that way. Find the formula, get the answer. It's not the same in law. You have gray areas, you have conflicting interpretations of cases by different (or the same) judges, etc. Get it into your head now that it's not black and white and you'll be a lot better off.

Sorry for the long post. If you have any more questions, let me know.

Link Posted: 3/2/2006 7:00:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2006 7:05:52 AM EDT by danpass]

Originally Posted By jthuang:
<snip>



Excellent post, thank you.

1L = first year Law?

One of the things Jim did is work his way thru Law School (Univ of Miami) by clerking. Reasonable or not? (If he did it why not me, right?)

These summer internships are standard practice? (sounds like it)
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 7:03:05 AM EDT
Tag, this is some good info.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 7:14:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By danpass:

Originally Posted By jthuang:
<snip>



Excellent post, thank you.

1L = first year Law?

One of the things Jim did is work his way thru Law School (Univ of Miami) by clerking. Reasonable or not? (If he did it why not me, right?)

These summer internships are standard practice? (sounds like it)



I wouldn't absolutely say don't work, but be very careful your first year. The grades you make are going to far outweigh any benefit from a job. If you can make law review and still work, do it, but I suspect you will be too busy with school.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 7:19:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By danpass:

Originally Posted By jthuang:
<snip>



Excellent post, thank you.

1L = first year Law?

One of the things Jim did is work his way thru Law School (Univ of Miami) by clerking. Reasonable or not? (If he did it why not me, right?)

These summer internships are standard practice? (sounds like it)



I did the law appl thing right out of college, I will say the Kaplan test prep was alot of help, I dropped 2 gran in their classes but its an investimet for my future, so thats how I justified it and looked at it. also, many of the law apps I filled out asked me if I WOULD BE ABLE TO go through my first year of law school WITHOUT a part time job, they said that the first year being so heavy would need to be dedicated to the work etc. Now that being said, I hold a very limitied part time job, just for gun money
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 7:42:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2006 7:57:18 AM EDT by JohnTheTexican]

Originally Posted By danpass:

Originally Posted By jthuang:
<snip>



Excellent post, thank you.

1L = first year Law?

One of the things Jim did is work his way thru Law School (Univ of Miami) by clerking. Reasonable or not? (If he did it why not me, right?)

These summer internships are standard practice? (sounds like it)



At University of Texas, they arranged the first year classes to make it hard to hold down a job while going to school. I believe that was intentional. (For the first year classes, they told you what you were taking and when. At least for the first semester, there was no choice at all.) Although they discourage working during the first year, summer clerkships are standard parctice.

I wouldn't recommend trying to hold down a job during at least during the first semester. When you're applying for those summer jobs, they'll be looking pretty closely at those first semester grades. And those summer clerkships can be pretty lucrative, if you get a good one. Some firms pay over $2000 per week. And, of course, you get a foot in the door when it comes time to look for a regular, full time lawyer job.

Also, first year grades can be important to getting on Law Review, if that's something you're interested in. If your looking to work for one of the big name high dollar corporate firms or one of the more prestigious judicial clerkship or justice department jobs, it can be a big help. Otherwise, I think Law Review is sort of useless. Others would probably disagree.

Finally, be aware that demand for new lawyers fluctuates widely. When I started law school, almost every third third year student had multiple job offers when they graduated. When I was finishing up a couple years later, people were having a hard time even getting interviews. I graduated in December 1991, somewhere near the top 10% in my class, got the high score on the February bar exam, and still didn't have a full-time job until I got a August 1992 (I got a federal judicial clerkship that started at about $30K per year). And then eight years later, they were back in a hiring frenzy, with the big firms falling all over themselves for the opportunity to pay first year lawyers well over $100K per year. Whatever the job market's like now is no indication of what it'll be when you finish school.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 8:26:10 AM EDT
LSAT, Im thinking of the stuff you use to lube a MK19.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 8:44:10 AM EDT
I took it in '89, got a 48/48. I did the Kaplan review course. This was before computers and the internet, so when I took the course, I used their audio tape library and accompanying written materials, which were very well organized. Once I did enough practice exams I knew exactly what my weak areas were (Kaplan had every type of question categorized), then using the Kaplan materials I could locate questions from prior exams from these categories and really learn the material. To me that was the main benefit of the course: being able to look at a test question, to identify which category it was in, then use the methods Kaplan suggested to answer that particular type of question. It was such a good investment, my test scores got me into law school of my choice (Boalt Hall) where the tuition was ridiculously low (I think $1500 was the highest it got when I was there). You just get so much more from a study course IMO than you would if you just bought a book and took practice exams.

Anyways, good luck!
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 9:27:34 AM EDT
Danpass, it sounds like we're in the same boat right now. I signed up for and just received my Kaplan "Intensive Review" prep course materials. It isn't cheap-- $1,400.00 for the course. But I figure it'll give me the best prep possible.

Mike

PS. 27 years old; took the test in June 01 and got a 158. Took a few years off in between and the idea is still here, so why not..?
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 12:49:11 PM EDT

What are the various military options? (Pays for Law School and still get to serve)

USMC?

Army?

Air Force?
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 1:07:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2006 1:10:54 PM EDT by jthuang]

Originally Posted By danpass:
USMC?



Unless things have changed, you are too old for USMC JAG. I think the max age was 27-9. This is from a buddy of mine went USMC JAG straight out of law school.

Army might be a better option, I heard they accept JAG officers into the early 30s.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 2:56:19 PM EDT
In my opinion, the LSAT is all about how fast you can read and comprehend a fact pattern, how well you can write, and natural ability at problem solving. You cannot "learn" to take the LSAT, you just need to study the tests parameters and adapt your approach/method. Take MANY practice tests under test conditions.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 3:08:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:
I looked into law school last year. After finding what experienced lawyers made I said F* that! I already make double what they make with 10 years experience. Example: Senior Corporate lawyer at large corp here in Dallas pays $45-60k/yr! WTF? "Why so low?" I asked. Well, my DA friend said starting lawyers make in the low $30k! WTF? Apparently there are a lot of unemployed lawyers out there, and unless you own a successful firm or are partner in a successful firm, then you won't make jack....so all we ever hear about are the successful lawyers...I can take my chances with my PE license and start my own electronics enginering firm and probably come out ahead compared to going to law school and starting over. Now, IP law, according to the SMU advisor does not require a law degree - all I have to do is pass the patent bar....I thought about that, but who would hire someone with NO basic background in law?



Law has a lot of extremes. An associate at one of the 20 largest Dallas firms will start at $100k+. But, in order to do that you need to have graduated from a top ten lawschool or in the top 5% of your class at a local law school. As for $30k, that would be for a starting state DA. Federal DA's can make 100k after a few years.



the top jobs out of school - they end up laying them off pretty damn quick...a friend of mine is still unemployed....kind of shitty, huh?
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 3:32:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:

the top jobs out of school - they end up laying them off pretty damn quick...a friend of mine is still unemployed....kind of shitty, huh?



Like all things, some firms are worse than others. Usually, big law firms are somewhat reluctant to lay-off associates because the pool of qualified applicants is so small and it costs so much to train them. Did your friend get the axe around 2000-2002? That was kind of the exception. When the dot com bubble burst a lot of the largest firms laid off a bunch of associates. The dot com bubble had been driving associate salaries through the roof and firms were trying to get as many new lawyers as possible up to about 2000-2002. It got really tight afterwards. I knew several people that came out of UVA (a top 10 lawschool) without big firm jobs. Two years earlier 99% of the graduating class had more than one offer of $100k+.

Link Posted: 3/2/2006 3:50:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2006 4:05:10 PM EDT by MikeDeltaFoxtrot]
Most the advice here has been spot on. I took the test a couple years ago. I bought a couple of Kaplan books from B&N. I spent about a week before the test working with the books. I got a 169. I think the biggest thing you can do to help yourslef is to practice and get good at logic games.

I'm in the home stretch of my 1L year at U. of Richmond. Don't even think about trying to work. Borrow money as required; its available. First year grades are everything. Extreme focus is your friend.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 4:01:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot:
Mos the advice here has been spot on. I took the test a couple years ago. I bought a couple of Kaplan books from B&N. I spent about a week before the test working with the books. I got a 169. I think the biggest thing you can do to help yourslef is to practice and get god at logic games.

I'm in the home stretch of my 1L year at U. of Richmond. Don't even think about trying to work. Borrow money as required; its available. First year grades are everything. Extreme focus is your friend.



I see/hear that a lot and it is certainly sound advice to be ultra focused for the long term gain

I still have one student loan left (not much ) from ye old engineering degree.

Scholarships, grants ??? Is military (and yes USMC is out due to age) a viable option given the payoff to commitment, say perhaps, Army? The OSO I spoke with was not too clear on the requirements.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 5:58:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2006 6:04:08 PM EDT by civprod]

Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot:
Most the advice here has been spot on. I took the test a couple years ago. I bought a couple of Kaplan books from B&N. I spent about a week before the test working with the books. I got a 169. I think the biggest thing you can do to help yourslef is to practice and get good at logic games.

I'm in the home stretch of my 1L year at U. of Richmond. Don't even think about trying to work. Borrow money as required; its available. First year grades are everything. Extreme focus is your friend.



For the big summer associate positions, grades are very important, as is membership on journals and such. I do think that it is possible to work during law school, even during your first year, it just has to be a job where you have flexibility.

I have a couple of friends that worked part time jobs their first year and they both did fine grade wise, That said, I do not personally recommend it and I am glad that I did not do it myself. I have worked a clerk position this year (as a 3L) but I cannot imagine having to work the same number of hours and actually having a really heavy workload.

Also, MikeDeltaFoxtrot, I also go to the University of Richmond and I know another board member that goes there as well. Like I mentioned, I am currently a 3L so we probably have not had any occasion to run across each other. It's just a small world.

ETA: As far as financing goes, I am doing it all through student loans, grants, and scholarships. Loans take care of most of the money though. Everyone I know is basically in the same situation. It's not something I really liked having to do, but it was the only way that I was going to go through law school.

From my research into the topic, I found only one way that you can get the Army or anyone else to pick up the tab for law school by committing to them afterwards. The University of Richmond has a ROTC program that law students can participate in and it works the same as any ROTC program. I do not know how common this is, the UR is the only school that I applied to that advertised the program, I don't know if law students were involved in ROTC programs at the others.

If you are interested in pursuing a JAG career (or a public law field) one avenue to explore is loan forgiveness. Some schools will offer a program where they will forgive a portion of your loans if you are working in public law. I don't know if the military is included in these programs, but usually jobs such as legal aid and others are eligible if the school offers such a program.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 7:19:12 PM EDT
Wow. Small wordl indeed. Assuming there are less than 500 students in the school, and most are libtards, it is remarkable to have three known arfcom members.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:49:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:

the top jobs out of school - they end up laying them off pretty damn quick...a friend of mine is still unemployed....kind of shitty, huh?



Like all things, some firms are worse than others. Usually, big law firms are somewhat reluctant to lay-off associates because the pool of qualified applicants is so small and it costs so much to train them. Did your friend get the axe around 2000-2002? That was kind of the exception. When the dot com bubble burst a lot of the largest firms laid off a bunch of associates. The dot com bubble had been driving associate salaries through the roof and firms were trying to get as many new lawyers as possible up to about 2000-2002. It got really tight afterwards. I knew several people that came out of UVA (a top 10 lawschool) without big firm jobs. Two years earlier 99% of the graduating class had more than one offer of $100k+.




+1 ... are firms still laying off associates? I thought that was over and done with, after the dot com bust. I had a few friends get the axe in the Philadelphia area after the dot com bust but they all have jobs now (re-employed within 1-2 years).

In fact, the big firms in Philly are raising starting salaries again ... I think the biggest firms now pay $120-130k to start, with the other big firms coming in at $110k or so.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 3:34:22 PM EDT



Can you simply take the LSAT (seems so)? How long is the score valid?

In my research concerning law school, one sentence stands out; take the LSAT and see how you do, then take it from there


Link Posted: 3/3/2006 3:45:55 PM EDT
All the LSAT folks care about is getting your money. Take it for fun if you want to. But if you think there's any chance you'll want to go to law school, take it seriously. If they still do things the way they did when I was applying to law school, if you take it more than once most places would average your scores.

I don't know how old a score they'll accept.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 3:49:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:
All the LSAT folks care about is getting your money. Take it for fun if you want to. But if you think there's any chance you'll want to go to law school, take it seriously. If they still do things the way they did when I was applying to law school, if you take it more than once most places would average your scores.

I don't know how old a score they'll accept.



Yes, I will take it seriously. I am going to use it as a self-gauge
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:00:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danpass:

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:
All the LSAT folks care about is getting your money. Take it for fun if you want to. But if you think there's any chance you'll want to go to law school, take it seriously. If they still do things the way they did when I was applying to law school, if you take it more than once most places would average your scores.

I don't know how old a score they'll accept.



Yes, I will take it seriously. I am going to use it as a self-gauge




they will take any score up to five years prior. so for 2006, 2001 is the oldest score one can have.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 3:55:31 AM EDT
I took it cold and got a 156.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 7:48:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By recoiljunky:
I took it cold and got a 156.



nice
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 3:47:49 PM EDT
Original post updated
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 5:47:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 5:47:40 PM EDT by danpass]



Tell me about University of Virginia Law School
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:41:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danpass:



Tell me about University of Virginia Law School



It is a great school, one of the top ones in the nation. It is incredibly difficult to get in if you are not a Virginia resident, and it is difficult to get in even if you are a resident. You will need high LSAT scores and GPA to get in.

Charlottesville is a great area to live in, IMO.

I don't know if you have this book yet, but there is an ABA guide to law schools that might be worth buying. There are many other law school guides that give you profiles as well, but I would suggest that you get one that has admissions tables. These tables will generally show how many people in a particular admission year applied to the school with your range LSAT and GPA and how many of those individuals were admitted. This is not a concrete indicator of your chances since there are other factors that go into the admission process, but it will narrow down your choices some.

As far as areas of law goes, since you have an engineering degree, you may want to explore patent or IP law. These areas require a technical background so the number of candidates in the field are more limited.

I have enjoyed my law school experience and I am glad that I did this. I will come out with alot of debt, and I still do not have a job lined up for after the bar but I still think that it was the right choice. Law school, however, was an incredibly trying experience though, both academically and mentally. I studied my ass off my first year of law school, I basically treated school as a full time job and I would get to the school around 8 in the morning and leave sometime after 5. I usually did not do any work at home but I did spend alot of time studying, briefing, and reading. I ended up with pretty good grades my first year, with the exception of one class.

I went through an incredibly difficult second year of law school mentally. I still did alright in classes, there were just some times when I was questioning what I was doing in law school. I was having difficulty finding a clerkship for the summer and, while not bad, was in a less then ideal living situation. I started looking for other employment opportunities outside of the law that I might be able to get. I used the resources the school has available and made it through the year. I actually still did well in terms of grades. One of the benefits of law school (along with medical school, from what I have heard from friends that are doctors and other professional schools), they really don't want you to fail out of law school or drop out (unless you know that is what you want to do). They are willing to work with you and help you when you need it. In the end, I actually ended up with an incredibly rewarding summer internship, even though there were more personal problems stemming from a medical response.

This third year has actually gone very well. I have had very good grades. Although I still do not have a job and the bar is looming, my experience my second year has helped me to gain perspective on the situation.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 3:46:01 AM EDT
The "games" are the tough part. I would take one a day and work it like a crossword for the 6 months leading up to the test. Just do as many as possible and you'll be good. Do at least ONE A DAY and your shit is golden.

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