THIS IS WHY WE NEED MORE UNIONS!

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - THIS IS WHY WE NEED MORE UNIONS! (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 3/1/2006 10:47:15 AM EDT

From today's Wall Street Journal Online...

Detroit's Symbol of Dysfunction:Paying Employees Not to Work

Paying Employees Not to Work

A Dismal Facility in Flint: Mr. Mellon Takes a Long Nap... in what workers call the "rubber room." "Jobs Bank," a two-decade-old program under which nearly 15,000 auto workers continue to get paid after their companies stop needing them. To earn wages and benefits that often top $100,000 a year, the workers must perform some company-approved activity. Many do volunteer jobs or go back to school. The rest must clock time in the rubber room or something like it.

[snip] The Jobs Bank at GM and other U.S. auto companies including Ford Motor Co. is likely to cost around $1.4 billion to $2 billion this year. The programs, which are up for renewal next year when union contracts expire, have become a symbol of why Detroit struggles even as Japanese auto makers with big U.S. operations prosper.

[snip] About 7,500 GM workers are now in the Jobs Bank, more than double the figure a year ago. The bank added 2,100 workers last month when the company closed a truck-assembly plant in Oklahoma City. Each person costs GM around $100,000 to $130,000 in wages and benefits, according to internal union and company figures, meaning GM's total cost this year is likely to be around $750 million to $900 million.

The room is a windowless old storage shed for engine parts. It is filled with long tables, Mr. Mellon says, and has space for about 400 employees. They must arrive at 6 a.m. each day and stay until 2:30 p.m., with 45 minutes off for lunch. A supervisor roams the aisles, signing people out when they want to use the bathroom.

Their job: to do nothing.

Posted: 3/1/2006 10:50:08 AM EDT

[#1]

I gotta get me a union!

Posted: 3/1/2006 10:50:40 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
From today's Wall Street Journal Online...

Their job: to do nothing.

$100k-$130k to do nothing? SIGN ME UP!

Posted: 3/1/2006 10:52:10 AM EDT

[#3]

Sad isn't it, and they wonder why US carmakers are in the shitter.

Can't blame the workers though...where do I sign to makee $100 grand / year to sit around and do crosswords and read about guns all day?

Posted: 3/1/2006 10:53:06 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
where do I sign to makee $100 grand / year to sit around and do crosswords and read about guns all day?

ARFCOM Staff.

j/k

Posted: 3/1/2006 10:54:34 AM EDT

[#5]

nice... but look at the bright side, when GM or FORD declares bankruptcy, you'll gett to help bail them out with tax money!

Posted: 3/1/2006 10:55:06 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

where do I sign to makee $100 grand / year to sit around and do crosswords and read about guns all day?

Sorry, all the ATF 'kook website monitor' positions are currently filled.

Posted: 3/1/2006 10:57:01 AM EDT

[#7]

Son: Daddy, what do you do?
Father: I work for GM, I've got union pride!
Son: Is that why you take the newspaper, a puzzlebook and my Gameboy to work everyday?

Posted: 3/1/2006 10:59:38 AM EDT

[#8]

That's pathetic.

I never knew it was that bad.

I know a lot of members here say it is just as much the management as the unions fault for GM's problems.

If I was CEO, I would file bankrupcy, bust that union and let those lazy fuckers find out what it is like in the real world.

Come out of bankruptcy and kick the shit out of the competition.

Posted: 3/1/2006 11:00:21 AM EDT

[#9]

Best. Job. Ever.

Posted: 3/1/2006 11:02:32 AM EDT

[#10]

That reminds me, how's the Sikorski stike going?

Posted: 3/1/2006 11:16:33 AM EDT

[#11]

Tag for the carnage ...

Posted: 3/1/2006 11:24:30 AM EDT

[#12]

It's been posted before (maybe not this exact link, but anyway).

If you are one who is required to be productive for a paycheck, you do tend to wonder how these things would ever come about..... -and it's rather difficult to feel much sympathy for the people getting paid for doing nothing.
~

Posted: 3/1/2006 11:27:15 AM EDT

[#13]

This has been going on for decades.

When we closed the GM plants in Meridian, Mississippi in the mid-1990s, they paid the union hourly exactly what these guys are getting. We built lounges with PC terminals for job searches and training, and all the numbnuts did was play solitaire all fucking day.

A lot (remember, two words) of former GM employees plowed their payments into bars, thinking that a city with high unemployment needed more bars.

Maybe they were right, but they all went broke.

Posted: 3/1/2006 11:38:46 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
This has been going on for decades.

When we closed the GM plants in Meridian, Mississippi in the mid-1990s, they paid the union hourly exactly what these guys are getting. We built lounges with PC terminals for job searches and training, and all the numbnuts did was play solitaire all fucking day.

A lot (remember, two words) of former GM employees plowed their payments into bars, thinking that a city with high unemployment needed more bars. Maybe they were right, but they all went broke.

that seems to be a problem for high-wage blue collar jobs. for whatever reason these guys will piss away their paycheck and have absolutely nothing to show for it. makes me want to cry.

Posted: 3/1/2006 11:43:42 AM EDT

[#15]

And don't forget about the part where if they do indeed get laid off by the company, they receive 95% of their pay for one year.

Great. You had to get me started!!

Posted: 3/1/2006 11:44:45 AM EDT

[#16]

Northwest Airline pilots about to strike. Another US industry about to go down the tubes...

Posted: 3/1/2006 11:55:31 AM EDT

[#17]

LOL

BTW, all gun owners are criminals.

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:00:19 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
LOL

BTW, all gun owners are criminals.

I didn't realize it was time for the regular union bashing thread already.

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:07:25 PM EDT

[#19]

Beyond bizarre.

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:10:44 PM EDT

[#20]

Man, you guys have no clue about unions and how much they have fundamentally screwed up the base industry in the US.

The new unions...(SEIU) Are militant, and, are agressive, but, they are for workers that are
makeing crap wages (discussion for another day)

UAW is an almost defunt union. They have managed to make the big three unviable.

I deal with this BS EVERY fucking day. Beleive me...You have no clue about the
way organized labor has doomed this country on the big-boy stage.

India pays low wages for people to work their asses off.

We pay people to sleep.

Sorry......We're becoming the BOTAC of the world.

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:15:26 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Northwest Airline pilots about to strike. Another US industry about to go down the tubes...

The airline industry has been going down the tubes since deregulation in 1978. Its heyday is long gone, like the aerospace industry.

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:15:56 PM EDT

[#22]

Tagged for the bloody confrontation about to happen!

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:18:21 PM EDT

[#23]

I won't be a willing enabler of this bullsh!t. Our next chariot is a Toyota.

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:19:19 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
LOL

BTW, all gun owners are criminals.

I didn't realize it was time for the regular union bashing thread already.

Hell we had 2 last week, but I'll jump in. Union=socialism

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:22:13 PM EDT

[#25]

One thing I've wondered about is that lots of the plants won't even store parts, you have to get deliveries there on time or the lines shut down. WTF? Did the unions stipulate no onsite storage? I don't get it. I've been warned that after Saturday to try and stay away from deliveries to any UAW plant because if I'm late, I'm screwed, because they'll have to shut the line down and that'll piss off MY bosses because the UAW doesn't want car parts stored on site.

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:22:34 PM EDT

[#26]

The Canadian Federal government promised job security to federal employees after a union dispute some 12-15 years ago.

The result:
Federal employees conducting criminal acts (on live TV yet) still kept their jobs.
Job Banks for federal employees in the Ottawa area, senior engineer types were being paid $100K+ to do nothing....

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:23:20 PM EDT

[#27]

Well folks, it's that time again! Time for the weekly Union thread!

On that note.....fuck Unions.

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:27:06 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
One thing I've wondered about is that lots of the plants won't even store parts, you have to get deliveries there on time or the lines shut down. WTF? Did the unions stipulate no onsite storage? I don't get it. I've been warned that after Saturday to try and stay away from deliveries to any UAW plant because if I'm late, I'm screwed, because they'll have to shut the line down and that'll piss off MY bosses because the UAW doesn't want car parts stored on site.

Our plants (alternators and starters) have been working OT because of GMs pull-ahead as a strike hedge. They're keeping those parts somewhere.

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:27:15 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
LOL

BTW, all gun owners are criminals.

I didn't realize it was time for the regular union bashing thread already.
Hell we had 2 last week, but I'll jump in. Union=socialism

Assault rifles are only good for one thing: killing as many people as possible in the least amount of time.

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:29:42 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
LOL

BTW, all gun owners are criminals.

I didn't realize it was time for the regular union bashing thread already.
Hell we had 2 last week, but I'll jump in. Union=socialism

Assault rifles are only good for one thing: killing as many people as possible in the least amount of time.

Funny, Unions do the same thing

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:30:44 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Quoted:
One thing I've wondered about is that lots of the plants won't even store parts, you have to get deliveries there on time or the lines shut down. WTF? Did the unions stipulate no onsite storage? I don't get it. I've been warned that after Saturday to try and stay away from deliveries to any UAW plant because if I'm late, I'm screwed, because they'll have to shut the line down and that'll piss off MY bosses because the UAW doesn't want car parts stored on site.

Our plants (alternators and starters) have been working OT because of GMs pull-ahead as a strike hedge. They're keeping those parts somewhere.

It may just be some parts, I dunno. All the other drivers just told me to stay the hell away from any shipment involving a UAW plant if at all possible.

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:34:04 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
We're becoming the BOTAC of the world.

BOTAC? WHat's that?

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:35:55 PM EDT

[#33]

c'mon guys.

these working Americans give their lives to these companies, and then managment decides they don't need that many employees anymore so what are they to do?????? Just fire them????

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:36:54 PM EDT

[#34]

I actually know a guy personally who does that...

Great guy, Vietnam vet with combat experience, and a great christian man who I had the pleasure of going on a fishing trip with last summer. He told me he cleans the paint boths for two hours then sleeps the rest of his shift.

I had the same exact reaction in my head that you all are saying. Thats when I had no doubt that GM was going to crash and burn. I guess if I coult take a job where I get paid to sleep I would, so its no reflection on him personally.(infact if I can get a full time FF gig I might be doing just that

.)

But I was suprised that management would be so week as to put up with that crap.

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:37:52 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Quoted:
One thing I've wondered about is that lots of the plants won't even store parts, you have to get deliveries there on time or the lines shut down. WTF? Did the unions stipulate no onsite storage? I don't get it. I've been warned that after Saturday to try and stay away from deliveries to any UAW plant because if I'm late, I'm screwed, because they'll have to shut the line down and that'll piss off MY bosses because the UAW doesn't want car parts stored on site.

Our plants (alternators and starters) have been working OT because of GMs pull-ahead as a strike hedge. They're keeping those parts somewhere.

Naw the union didn't stipulate J.I.T. (just in time). Some bean counter figured it was cheaper to not stock parts because then you have big$ tied up in inventory waiting to be assembled. All auto companies do it these days even the non union ones. Works great until there is a SNAFU.

We had a helicopter land in our parking lot about this time last year to carry two boxes of bolts (about 150 total) from our location to the engine assembly plant about 100 miles away. By the time it was all said and done each bolt cost about $150 dollars. The SNAFU BTW was not ours. We make inspection equipment and were helping a customer of ours get out of their jam.

As far as strike hedge storage. It's usually someplace that the union has no influence i,e, a private storage facility.

Kent

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:41:20 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Assault rifles are only good for one thing: killing as many people as possible in the least amount of time.

That's why I like 'em!

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:42:08 PM EDT

[#37]

Makes sense to me.

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:48:43 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
One thing I've wondered about is that lots of the plants won't even store parts, you have to get deliveries there on time or the lines shut down. WTF? Did the unions stipulate no onsite storage? I don't get it. I've been warned that after Saturday to try and stay away from deliveries to any UAW plant because if I'm late, I'm screwed, because they'll have to shut the line down and that'll piss off MY bosses because the UAW doesn't want car parts stored on site.

Our plants (alternators and starters) have been working OT because of GMs pull-ahead as a strike hedge. They're keeping those parts somewhere.

Naw the union didn't stipulate J.I.T. (just in time). Some bean counter figured it was cheaper to not stock parts because then you have big$ tied up in inventory waiting to be assembled. All auto companies do it these days even the non union ones. Works great until there is a SNAFU.

We had a helicopter land in our parking lot about this time last year to carry two boxes of bolts (about 150 total) from our location to the engine assembly plant about 100 miles away. By the time it was all said and done each bolt cost about $150 dollars. The SNAFU BTW was not ours. We make inspection equipment and were helping a customer of ours get out of their jam.

Kent

You are both kindof right.

The real benifit was small inventories revealed problems in the plant that were hidden by large inventories. Once a problem was revealed, it was up to management to commit the resourses to solve them (this point can be whined about for ages). Large inventories could hide quality and production problems for months and when somebody delivered a batch of bad parts, it was a gigantic bitch to find them. It sucked even worse when the customer found them.

The second benifit was that if market conditions changed in a hurry you didn't have millions to billions of dollars of inventory sitting around being worthless.

Toyota keeps minutes of inventory in some of thier plants and their plants don't stop running. This is because managment comitted the resourses to solving the problems once they were revealed.

If you have to have large inventories to keep your plant running, you are doing it wrong.

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:48:55 PM EDT

[#39]

Sarcastic, inflammatory statements aside, I think it's obvious to most people here that it isn't all unions that are at fault. It's OK to say that the UAW has negotiated some ridiculous conditions. I've seen it myself, first-hand, both as a truck driver and more recently, as a union Steamfitter working in-plant through an outside contractor. Don't lump me in with the typical UAW excesses you may have read about but have never seen.

Quoted:
One thing I've wondered about is that lots of the plants won't even store parts, you have to get deliveries there on time or the lines shut down. WTF? Did the unions stipulate no onsite storage? I don't get it. I've been warned that after Saturday to try and stay away from deliveries to any UAW plant because if I'm late, I'm screwed, because they'll have to shut the line down and that'll piss off MY bosses because the UAW doesn't want car parts stored on site.

BTDT. I used to deliver to both Ford and GM at various factories. We were always on a tight schedule, and we were required to call in with regularity because production depended on our chain of supply. It was all precisely timed so that there was no long-term parts storage at the factory. They unloaded our stuff and put it to use right away. Any "storage" takes place inside 48-foot trailers, either at the point of origin, or at an intermodal railyard. The parts are typically in transit. I honestly don't know if it's all due to the UAW or not.

I didn't haul alternators and starters. I carried heaters and air conditioning units for GM, and interior door panels for Ford. As a driver I got to see things that the average Joe will never see, some of which goes way beyond the scope of this topic. Yes, it serves to drive automobile prices sky-high.

Posted: 3/1/2006 12:51:57 PM EDT

[#40]

They are just "no-show" jobs, even Enron had some employees drawing checks and nowhere to be found. The construction unions in NYC were ripe with them, on payday I remember guys in suits showing up to get paychecks, it was during the recession of NYC in '76 and I could not find a job after being seperated for military service, so I didn't ask any questions.

Posted: 3/1/2006 1:42:26 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Sarcastic, inflammatory statements aside, I think it's obvious to most people here that it isn't all unions that are at fault. It's OK to say that the UAW has negotiated some ridiculous conditions. I've seen it myself, first-hand, both as a truck driver and more recently, as a union Steamfitter working in-plant through an outside contractor. Don't lump me in with the typical UAW excesses you may have read about but have never seen.

Unions--all of them--are just an effort to create a labor cartel. Not all of them are as bad as UAW, but they are all efforts at labor cartels.

Posted: 3/1/2006 2:07:41 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
I won't be a willing enabler of this bullsh!t. Our next chariot is a Toyota.

I've never owned an American vehicle.
And Americans wonder why companies outsource...

Posted: 3/1/2006 2:09:11 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
One thing I've wondered about is that lots of the plants won't even store parts, you have to get deliveries there on time or the lines shut down. WTF? Did the unions stipulate no onsite storage? I don't get it. I've been warned that after Saturday to try and stay away from deliveries to any UAW plant because if I'm late, I'm screwed, because they'll have to shut the line down and that'll piss off MY bosses because the UAW doesn't want car parts stored on site.

Our plants (alternators and starters) have been working OT because of GMs pull-ahead as a strike hedge. They're keeping those parts somewhere.

Naw the union didn't stipulate J.I.T. (just in time). Some bean counter figured it was cheaper to not stock parts because then you have big$ tied up in inventory waiting to be assembled. All auto companies do it these days even the non union ones. Works great until there is a SNAFU.

We had a helicopter land in our parking lot about this time last year to carry two boxes of bolts (about 150 total) from our location to the engine assembly plant about 100 miles away. By the time it was all said and done each bolt cost about $150 dollars. The SNAFU BTW was not ours. We make inspection equipment and were helping a customer of ours get out of their jam.

As far as strike hedge storage. It's usually someplace that the union has no influence i,e, a private storage facility.

Kent

Toyota pioneered JIT decades ago. An average Toyota final assembly plant has no more than two hours of inventory on hand for any part at any time. And somehow Toyota makes more profit than the rest of the auto industry COMBINED. Lean Manufacturing with JIT inventory is by far the MOST efficient method to manufacture. And it was NOT bean counters that created JIT and Lean.

The $150 dollar bolts mentioned above were more than offset by all the savings by not holding mountains of inventory every day.

Posted: 3/1/2006 2:24:14 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
One thing I've wondered about is that lots of the plants won't even store parts, you have to get deliveries there on time or the lines shut down. WTF? Did the unions stipulate no onsite storage? I don't get it. I've been warned that after Saturday to try and stay away from deliveries to any UAW plant because if I'm late, I'm screwed, because they'll have to shut the line down and that'll piss off MY bosses because the UAW doesn't want car parts stored on site.

Our plants (alternators and starters) have been working OT because of GMs pull-ahead as a strike hedge. They're keeping those parts somewhere.

Naw the union didn't stipulate J.I.T. (just in time). Some bean counter figured it was cheaper to not stock parts because then you have big$ tied up in inventory waiting to be assembled. All auto companies do it these days even the non union ones. Works great until there is a SNAFU.

We had a helicopter land in our parking lot about this time last year to carry two boxes of bolts (about 150 total) from our location to the engine assembly plant about 100 miles away. By the time it was all said and done each bolt cost about $150 dollars. The SNAFU BTW was not ours. We make inspection equipment and were helping a customer of ours get out of their jam.

As far as strike hedge storage. It's usually someplace that the union has no influence i,e, a private storage facility.

Kent

Toyota pioneered JIT decades ago. An average Toyota final assembly plant has no more than two hours of inventory on hand for any part at any time. And somehow Toyota makes more profit than the rest of the auto industry COMBINED. Lean Manufacturing with JIT inventory is by far the MOST efficient method to manufacture. And it was NOT bean counters that created JIT and Lean.

The $150 dollar bolts mentioned above were more than offset by all the savings by not holding mountains of inventory every day.

I usta work at NUMMI ( Toyota & G.M. joint venture in Fremont CA ). NUMMI production control ( parts ordering and scheduling ) didn't order enough master cylinders. They were about 400 short durring model change. That little oops shut the line down and cost a lot of $$ with 1500 or so people standing there doing nothing. We usta make 1 car every 58 seconds. That adds up. Replacenets were helicoptered in.
J.I.T works O.K. if everything works. But when it doesn't the $$ adds up.

Posted: 3/1/2006 2:41:10 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
I usta work at NUMMI ( Toyota & G.M. joint venture in Fremont CA ). NUMMI production control ( parts ordering and scheduling ) didn't order enough master cylinders. They were about 400 short durring model change. That little oops shut the line down and cost a lot of $$ with 1500 or so people standing there doing nothing. We usta make 1 car every 58 seconds. That adds up. Replacenets were helicoptered in.
J.I.T works O.K. if everything works. But when it doesn't the $$ adds up.

And this tells us what? A few years ago a snowstorm in KY shut Toyota's huge plant down because a couple of truck could not make it. Toyota did not abandon JIT. They bought the local .gov snow removal equipment and kept receiving parts JIT.

Lean is not about never having problems. It is about learning from past bad results.

Posted: 3/1/2006 2:53:06 PM EDT

[#46]

there are plenty of good reasons for companies to operate in a JIT manner....one of the overlooked ones is how inventory is treated for balance sheet as well as taxation purposes. Cash flow is another issue. Inventory is just wasted cash.

Posted: 3/1/2006 2:59:10 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Sarcastic, inflammatory statements aside, I think it's obvious to most people here that it isn't all unions that are at fault. It's OK to say that the UAW has negotiated some ridiculous conditions. I've seen it myself, first-hand, both as a truck driver and more recently, as a union Steamfitter working in-plant through an outside contractor. Don't lump me in with the typical UAW excesses you may have read about but have never seen.

Unions--all of them--are just an effort to create a labor cartel. Not all of them are as bad as UAW, but they are all efforts at labor cartels.

So, tell me: are you non-union labor or white-collar/management? Or just a college student? Just curious about your background WRT your above statement.

Posted: 3/1/2006 3:18:09 PM EDT

[#48]

I like working for the local 223.

Posted: 3/1/2006 3:19:26 PM EDT

[#49]

shiiiiiiit

i'm in the WRONG line of work!

Posted: 3/1/2006 3:24:03 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sarcastic, inflammatory statements aside, I think it's obvious to most people here that it isn't all unions that are at fault. It's OK to say that the UAW has negotiated some ridiculous conditions. I've seen it myself, first-hand, both as a truck driver and more recently, as a union Steamfitter working in-plant through an outside contractor. Don't lump me in with the typical UAW excesses you may have read about but have never seen.

Unions--all of them--are just an effort to create a labor cartel. Not all of them are as bad as UAW, but they are all efforts at labor cartels.

So, tell me: are you non-union labor or white-collar/management? Or just a college student? Just curious about your background WRT your above statement.

I like how the union guys break the world down in to the proletariat and the bourgeoise whenever possible.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - THIS IS WHY WE NEED MORE UNIONS! (Page 1 of 2)

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