Quoted: Quoted: A recent public opinion poll indicates ANOTHER all time low approval rating for Bush.  34% of Americans approve of the job he's doing.  62% said efforts to bring stability to Iraq are going badly.  Responding to the recent polls (for whatever their worth), Bush said, "I'm not worried."  WTF!?  America thinks you suck!  Who are you representing!? . . . anyway, he's makes me angry . . . That recent CBS poll was proven to be wickedly skewed, you know. I would have thought that people would be bright enough to not just accept whatever poll is being touted at the moment, but I guess not. Link.

highlighted in red above, I agree with your assessment on the validity of polls, show me a poll that isn't skewed.

However, that said, based on my own observations, digging, and watching....my approval rating of Bush still puts me in that 34%

Quoted: Quoted: How Bush ever thought he could try and turn a bunch of savages into a functioning society is beyond me. +1. I said from the start Iraq would be near impossible to tame without brute force. The kind of brute force that held the country together before we got there. Not saying it's right, but it's reality for Iraq.

The Shia and the Sunni have been fighting since about 800 A.D.

We are going the stop this now?

Let them fight. I'm tired of being told we don;t have money for this and that when we are spending $400,000,000,000 a year on that bullshit.

Our troops are now in the middle of a civil war.

Quoted: Quoted: So.....you're saying that we shouldnt have taken Saddam out of power? What about the 3-5million+ people he's killed in 25years of power?  What about their families?  He's personally touched over 10million people through his torture and kidnappings and murders. What about the hundreds of thousand who are victims of genocide, mass rape, ethic cleansing, even as we post here? We are doing nothing but siiting on our hands. Saddam was just another petty dictator who we supported, then abandoned. We didn't give a shit about his crimes in the '80. Hell we GAVE HIM chemical weapons at that point to fight Iran with. Ever seen the pics of Dick Cheney shaking  his habd in the 1980s? Our foreign policy has created 90% of the monsters we are facing today, INCLUDING Osama Bin Laden. Do you realize we paid that asshat and the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan on the order of a million dollars a month to to fight the evil Russain invaders? Yeah he was our buddy back then. All those caves we had to clear? Yep, many built by the CIA with US taxpayer money. We are our own worst enemy, as always. The current administration, while the lesser of two evils, is still a bunch of money grabbing asshats with an agenda that does not have the American middle class at heart.

Are you sure we are our own worst enemy?

Paying Osama to fight the commies helped destroy the USSR. If we had not allowed the muj to shoot down soviet choppers maybe we would still be in the cold war.

Selling Saddam stuff stopped Iran from spreading fundamentalism around, and killed some insane amount on both sides, in the millions I think.

I am happy with both those decisions.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So.....you're saying that we shouldnt have taken Saddam out of power? What about the 3-5million+ people he's killed in 25years of power?  What about their families?  He's personally touched over 10million people through his torture and kidnappings and murders. What about the hundreds of thousand who are victims of genocide, mass rape, ethic cleansing, even as we post here? We are doing nothing but siiting on our hands. Saddam was just another petty dictator who we supported, then abandoned. We didn't give a shit about his crimes in the '80. Hell we GAVE HIM chemical weapons at that point to fight Iran with. Ever seen the pics of Dick Cheney shaking  his habd in the 1980s? Our foreign policy has created 90% of the monsters we are facing today, INCLUDING Osama Bin Laden. Do you realize we paid that asshat and the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan on the order of a million dollars a month to to fight the evil Russain invaders? Yeah he was our buddy back then. All those caves we had to clear? Yep, many built by the CIA with US taxpayer money. We are our own worst enemy, as always. The current administration, while the lesser of two evils, is still a bunch of money grabbing asshats with an agenda that does not have the American middle class at heart. Are you sure we are our own worst enemy? Paying him to fight the commies helped destroy the USSR. If we had not allowed the muj to shoot down soviet choppers maybe we would still be in the cold war. Selling Saddam stuff stopped Iran from spreading fundamentalism around, and killed some insane amount on both sides, in the millions I think. I am happy with both those decisions.

I think history has shown that the Russians would have failed in Afghanistan without our help, and the Iran Iraq was war not  decided because of us.  The Soviets provided far more equipment and help than we ever did.

I think they were errors in foreign policy that has gone awry since the end of WWII.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Quoted: How Bush ever thought he could try and turn a bunch of savages into a functioning society is beyond me. Personally,I don't think one US soldiers life is worth trying to turn that shithole into something that resembles humanity.

I agree, Massachusetts is beyond redemption.  We should seal off the borders to it and leave it to rot.  First thing to do is to string up barbed wire along the NH border to keep the Massholes out.

Quoted: Quoted: How Bush ever thought he could try and turn a bunch of savages into a functioning society is beyond me. Personally,I don't think one US soldiers life is worth trying to turn that shithole into something that resembles humanity. I agree, Massachusetts is beyond redemption.  We should seal off the borders to it and leave it to rot.  First thing to do is to string up barbed wire along the NH border to keep the Massholes out.

AMEN!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How Bush ever thought he could try and turn a bunch of savages into a functioning society is beyond me. Personally,I don't think one US soldiers life is worth trying to turn that shithole into something that resembles humanity. I agree, Massachusetts is beyond redemption.  We should seal off the borders to it and leave it to rot.  First thing to do is to string up barbed wire along the NH border to keep the Massholes out. AMEN!

Quoted: So Sunni militants bombed the Shiite's holy golden dome shrine in Iraq.  National Intelligence Director, John Negraponte, testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee today.  Things in Iraq REALLY are bleak!   The issue is potential civil war between Shiite's and Sunni's.  Shiite's and Sunni's are killing each other with increased frequency; even all day curfews haven't quelled the anger and violence.  Negraponte said civil war would be a "serious setback" to the war on terrorism, and that if civil war happens, there is a strong likelihood it would spread beyond Iraq.  Iran would side with Shiites, while Saudi Arabia and Jordan would side with Sunni's.  Analysts are well aware that U.S. troops would be able to do nothing if civil war broke out, we'd essentially have to conduct a quick evacuation. While a quick response might be, "good, let them kill each other off", that's an unacceptable answer.  If we're fighting a war on terror, we'd be losing BIG TIME if Iraq went into anarchy and militants reigned supreme, and spread their terror network.  Just a few days ago DICK Cheney was saying to the American Legion that we can't bail on Iraq, because terrorists have taken refuge there.  Mind you, they weren't there before we went in!  And a wider conflict in the Middle East would spell doom and gloom for economies around the world.  WE would feel their civil war. Meanwhile a similar gloom and doom picture was painted for Afghanistan.  Violence from the Taliban has increased 20% over the past year, they're posing a greater threat to the Afghanistan government, and they'll be very active again this Spring.  But Bush is there today....so all should be well now.....right??? Frankly, I see all of this fucking mess as mostly Bush's fault.  Sad....but I can see how Iraq was piloted by anyone else.  We would not be in that quagmire if it wasn't for Dubya's persistence.  All signs pointed to the fact that keeping law, order, and an unbiased, democratic government in a post-Saddam Iraq would be close to impossible.  But ....."You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists."  We went for WMD's - none were found - then it was justified for the "war on terror" yet no terrorists were there - they were a threat to Saddam's power, he'd have killed them.  We should have done Afghanistan right, and not bite into a war on Iraq.  Alas, it's all shitty now. Iraq this, Iran that, blah blah blah blah . . . . NORTH KOREA!  Did you forget about them?  Negraponte refused to guess how many nukes they have now, because he has no idea . . . grrrrrreeeeeaaaaaat.  Even that witchy shithead Hillary Clinton is criticizing Bush for relying on his "six party talks" that have only turned into China talking to North Korea, with China hosting its own agenda. A recent public opinion poll indicates ANOTHER all time low approval rating for Bush.  34% of Americans approve of the job he's doing.  62% said efforts to bring stability to Iraq are going badly.  Responding to the recent polls (for whatever their worth), Bush said, "I'm not worried."  WTF!?  America thinks you suck!  Who are you representing!? . . . anyway, he's makes me angry . . . You know what Iraq really needs right now?  An extreme and oppressive dictator to use unethical means to effectively control the government.  Cause our way isn't working.  All it takes is a satyrical cartoon poking fun at Allah, a spoon fed election, and a few Brits (justifiably) beating up some rock throwing shitheads to toss the country into civil war. Meanwhile Negraponte testified that our good friend in Venezuela (sarcasm), Hugo Chavez, is using all of the country's big oil profits to beef up the Venezuelan military.  He's gaining closer ties with Cuba, North Korea, and Iran.  He's expressing great interest in selling Venezuelan oil to countries other than the U.S. (don't buy Citgo gas, it's 100% Venezuelan). But anyway, on to something more cheerful - bird flu - lol.  Besides being in Sweden now, get this - a cat in Germany was infected with bird flu and died.  That's right, your friendly, purring, lovable cat "Mittens" that crawls up beside you to snuggle at night may soon be carrying the virus.  Imagine if it goes human-to-human and the domesticated cat is carrying the disease . . . gawd, now THAT is a scary thought.  Nevermind SHTF, that's a Doomsday scenario! Fuck it, I'm boarding up all the windows on the house and I'm not coming out for 12 months.  Buy a crank radio that doesn't require batteries.  It'll be good to know what's going on "out in the world.  The sky is falling, the end is near, death is imminent. It's all Bush's fault.  I helped vote him into office, and now I don't have enough supplies for my family to survive the impending storm of political bullshit that's crossing the Atlantic. You think oil is expensive now?  Wait till you need to put gas in your car in order to drive to the store....only to find brown paper bags over the gas pump handles when you get in line behind 7 vehicles that are thinking the same thing you are. mmm......Wednesday.

Hokie, I hardly know where to start at in response to your rant.  But here goes.

First, you said there were no Tango's in Iraq, did you forget Salmon Pac the major terroist training camp that was run by the Iraq's?  How about the major Al Quada operative that was captured there when we invaded who had a office in Bagdad?  The point is that there was all kinds of Tango's in Iraq and there still are today.  Are there more now then before we invaded? that I would say a hearty yes to but better there getting wacked by our military and the new Iraq military then else where killing americans or our friends.  You complained about going into Afgan, that was the HQ of Al Quaeda what the hell were we supposed to do leave them alone after 9/11?  Bush didnt start the war THEY DID.  As soon as they started the war he went right after their HQ and routed them out.  The next easiest and most immediate threat was Saddam who was looking for revenge after Desert Storm.  I cant believe you really think there were no WMD's in Iraq. You have really swallowed whole the liberal lie my friend.  Dude, the WMD's were MOVED OUT OF IRAQ!  They were moved to Syria by the Russians no less in the months before we invaded.  Dont take my word for it do some research on Google, there is all kinds of reports of it out there.  As far as N.K. goes nobody has forgotten them but what the hell do you want Bush to do?  Nuke them? Invade them?  Is it remotely possible that maybe Gov of the U.S might be privy to more info then you?  There is a reason for the six party talks because thats the last thing the NK's want they want it to be just them and us.  But by bringing in China who is really calling the shots in NK have no doubt the US can play a much deeper game.   Next...who gives a shit what Hilliary Clinton thinks?  She is nothing but a liberal talking head trying to pretend that she gives a shit about NK.  The only thing you have to remember about her is that anything she says is for the sole purpose of helping her and hurting bush.  And finally I also cannot believe you were sucked in by that phony poll.  Havnt you seen the accompying story on that poll showing that it was 2 to 1 Democrats polled on it?  What the hell do you expect from a liberal news corporation?  Again you have to remember the same rule for liberal news orgs as to liberal pols.  There sole purpose is to help their ratings in this instance and hurt Bush.  If that poll was balanced it would show him still being in the high 40's as he has always been.  Okay im wore out, hope your happy.

Quoted: Hokie, I hardly know where to start at in response to your rant.  But here goes. First, you said there were no Tango's in Iraq, did you forget Salmon Pac the major terroist training camp that was run by the Iraq's?  How about the major Al Quada operative that was captured there when we invaded who had a office in Bagdad?  The point is that there was all kinds of Tango's in Iraq and there still are today.  Are there more now then before we invaded? that I would say a hearty yes to but better there getting wacked by our military and the new Iraq military then else where killing americans or our friends.  You complained about going into Afgan, that was the HQ of Al Quaeda what the hell were we supposed to do leave them alone after 9/11?  Bush didnt start the war THEY DID.  As soon as they started the war he went right after their HQ and routed them out.  The next easiest and most immediate threat was Saddam who was looking for revenge after Desert Storm.  I cant believe you really think there were no WMD's in Iraq. You have really swallowed whole the liberal lie my friend.  Dude, the WMD's were MOVED OUT OF IRAQ!  They were moved to Syria by the Russians no less in the months before we invaded.  Dont take my word for it do some research on Google, there is all kinds of reports of it out there.  As far as N.K. goes nobody has forgotten them but what the hell do you want Bush to do?  Nuke them? Invade them?  Is it remotely possible that maybe Gov of the U.S might be privy to more info then you?  There is a reason for the six party talks because thats the last thing the NK's want they want it to be just them and us.  But by bringing in China who is really calling the shots in NK have no doubt the US can play a much deeper game.   Next...who gives a shit what Hilliary Clinton thinks?  She is nothing but a liberal talking head trying to pretend that she gives a shit about NK.  The only thing you have to remember about her is that anything she says is for the sole purpose of helping her and hurting bush.  And finally I also cannot believe you were sucked in by that phony poll.  Havnt you seen the accompying story on that poll showing that it was 2 to 1 Democrats polled on it?  What the hell do you expect from a liberal news corporation?  Again you have to remember the same rule for liberal news orgs as to liberal pols.  There sole purpose is to help their ratings in this instance and hurt Bush.  If that poll was balanced it would show him still being in the high 40's as he has always been.  Okay im wore out, hope your happy.

You done real good MasterSniper!

Although I hear and clearly see your points of view....even agree with most of them.....our involvment in Iraq reaks of poor planning, bad timing, and bad judgement.  It's almost like we're chasing Bush down a hallway full of doors looking for a resolution to the middle east.....every time we chase him into a room he jumps out another door runs into another room.  It should be like that.

Media aside, liberals aside, Osama aside, WMD's aside....

Bush and his administration forced a conflict that could have been 'delayed' (not avoided) until Afghanistan was largely complete AND successful.  Now that we kicked a hornet's next trying to exterminate a few select problem makers.....no one knows what to do.

Meanwhile....Sunni's and Shiites are gearing up to further degrade our band-aid on the region while China and Russia work their own agendas with Iran and NK.

40% still isn't very popular.

We're damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

If we had left Saddam in power, the whole world would have seen us as a paper tiger, and he would still be working on his WMD (Yeas he DID have them). He would still be a threat to the Persian Gulf, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia.

Since we invaded to releave the above conditions, we now have to deal with a culture and a cult, er, "religion", for which violence and terror are the norms.

I't heartless and it's horrible, but I seriously believe that the only solution to this is to either a) nuke them indiscriminately and then drill for oil with a glass cutter, or b) wean ourselves off oil completely, and then quarantine them and let them kill each other to their heart's content.

Sadly, I don't see us getting off oil anytime soon. Throw in senor Chavez sitting astride our biggest supplier, and I see dark days ahead.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So.....you're saying that we shouldnt have taken Saddam out of power? I'm saying we should, but the timing was off.  We had a job to do in Afghanistan.  That, and our WMD intelligence wasn't only off, it was completely FALSE!!!!  We had no thought out exit strategy, and clearly did not account for the possible scenarios we see over there today.  We simply weren't prepared and now we're holding a hot potatoe. Incorrect. We have found radioactive material and chemical weapons in Iraq. Just not in the quantity we originally thought. Not even remotely close to what we originally thought.  Not enough in fact, to justify the invasion on Iraq.  Thus, we went in to liberate the populace without UN approval, etc etc etc. To say I'm incorrect by pointing out a couple mason jars full of chemical or radioactive nastiness doesn't counter the obvious error.  Heck I could find the ingredients to chemical weapons at Wal Mart.

I guess several thousand pounds doesn't impress you.

Anyway, SH already made his intentions to aid terrorist organizations and provide them with weapons if need be. The media gets wrapped around the axle about sponsoring 9/11. No, SH didn't sponsor 9/11, the connections to AQ where clear, and so was his desire to aid them in future attacks.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So.....you're saying that we shouldnt have taken Saddam out of power? I'm saying we should, but the timing was off.  We had a job to do in Afghanistan.  That, and our WMD intelligence wasn't only off, it was completely FALSE!!!!  We had no thought out exit strategy, and clearly did not account for the possible scenarios we see over there today.  We simply weren't prepared and now we're holding a hot potatoe. Incorrect. We have found radioactive material and chemical weapons in Iraq. Just not in the quantity we originally thought. Not even remotely close to what we originally thought.  Not enough in fact, to justify the invasion on Iraq.  Thus, we went in to liberate the populace without UN approval, etc etc etc. To say I'm incorrect by pointing out a couple mason jars full of chemical or radioactive nastiness doesn't counter the obvious error.  Heck I could find the ingredients to chemical weapons at Wal Mart.

You misunderstand the situation.

It doesn't matter if Saddam had no WMDs at all.  He had WMD *PROGRAMS* that he was ready to reactivate as soon as sanctions were eased.

Sanctions were about to be eased no matter what anyone did or said.  The rampant cheating and bribery allowed Saddam to buy all of the support he would need to eliminate them.  The misery of the Iraqi population provided the "humanitarian" reason for discontinuing sanctions -- despite the fact that the reason that the Iraqi population was starving, with children dying in droves, was because Saddam was using them as hostages and tools to draw international sympathy.

Evidence that his weapons programs were simply in hibernation was trivial to find.  Remember the nuclear scientist who had buried a bunch of centrifuge parts in his garden?  Remember all those new-manufacture empty chemical-weapons shells that kept getting found?

It doesn't matter whether Saddam had his oilfield storage tanks full of anthrax spores or not.  What matters is that Iraqi scientists were fully CAPABLE of manufacturing mountaints of chemical and biological weapons as soon as sanctions were lifted.  Having the programs is just as bad as having the materials stockpiled.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How Bush ever thought he could try and turn a bunch of savages into a functioning society is beyond me. Personally,I don't think one US soldiers life is worth trying to turn that shithole into something that resembles humanity. I agree, Massachusetts is beyond redemption.  We should seal off the borders to it and leave it to rot.  First thing to do is to string up barbed wire along the NH border to keep the Massholes out. AMEN!

Thank you, thank you!  I'm here all week!  Try the veal!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So.....you're saying that we shouldnt have taken Saddam out of power? I'm saying we should, but the timing was off.  We had a job to do in Afghanistan.  That, and our WMD intelligence wasn't only off, it was completely FALSE!!!!  We had no thought out exit strategy, and clearly did not account for the possible scenarios we see over there today.  We simply weren't prepared and now we're holding a hot potatoe. Incorrect. We have found radioactive material and chemical weapons in Iraq. Just not in the quantity we originally thought. Not even remotely close to what we originally thought.  Not enough in fact, to justify the invasion on Iraq.  Thus, we went in to liberate the populace without UN approval, etc etc etc. To say I'm incorrect by pointing out a couple mason jars full of chemical or radioactive nastiness doesn't counter the obvious error.  Heck I could find the ingredients to chemical weapons at Wal Mart. You misunderstand the situation. It doesn't matter if Saddam had no WMDs at all.  He had WMD *PROGRAMS* that he was ready to reactivate as soon as sanctions were eased. Sanctions were about to be eased no matter what anyone did or said.  The rampant cheating and bribery allowed Saddam to buy all of the support he would need to eliminate them.  The misery of the Iraqi population provided the "humanitarian" reason for discontinuing sanctions -- despite the fact that the reason that the Iraqi population was starving, with children dying in droves, was because Saddam was using them as hostages and tools to draw international sympathy. Evidence that his weapons programs were simply in hibernation was trivial to find.  Remember the nuclear scientist who had buried a bunch of centrifuge parts in his garden?  Remember all those new-manufacture empty chemical-weapons shells that kept getting found? It doesn't matter whether Saddam had his oilfield storage tanks full of anthrax spores or not.  What matters is that Iraqi scientists were fully CAPABLE of manufacturing mountaints of chemical and biological weapons as soon as sanctions were lifted.  Having the programs is just as bad as having the materials stockpiled.

We needed to deal with Iraq.....yes.  I couldn't agree with you MORE.

BUT....

The timing was wrong, our planning was wrong, our executing IS wrong, and this goat fuck ending to our ethical, economic, and political satisfaction is beginning to look pretty bleak.

Without getting into WHY we're in the position we're in....I'm more pissed about the way Bush is handling our foreign policy post 9/11.

Let's talk about THAT instead of regurgitating the obvious!

Quoted: I't heartless and it's horrible, but I seriously believe that the only solution to this is to either a) nuke them indiscriminately and then drill for oil with a glass cutter, or b) wean ourselves off oil completely, and then quarantine them and let them kill each other to their heart's content. Sadly, I don't see us getting off oil anytime soon. Throw in senor Chavez sitting astride our biggest supplier, and I see dark days ahead.

I agree with you.  I just don't agree that the Iraq war was mainly about humanitarian reasons.

Quoted: Wake up and get a load of MY POTUS.......... The whole liberal world can kiss my ass. He has brass ones, big shiny brass ones.

He's got brass ones all right.  I just wish he was a conservative.  Bush is an idiot.  There, I said it.  I voted for him twice because he was better than the alternatives, but he's an idiot.  He did us a favor by not pressing for a renewal of the AWB, but he's just about single-handedly ensured that the Dems will control the White House and Congress starting in 2008.  Plan your purchases accordingly.  

Quoted: I agree with you.  I just don't agree that the Iraq war was mainly about humanitarian reasons.

Oh! I don't agree with that, either. I really do believe that it was about a WMD threat and a threat to the Persian Gulf, as well as terrorism.

Humanitarianism is only a primary reason for war when democrats are in power, and we all know how effective THOSE missions have been.

Quoted: but he's just about single-handedly ensured that the Dems will control the White House and Congress starting in 2008.  Plan your purchases accordingly.

I doubt that. It's not like the dems are offering any better solutions. In fact, their platform IS defeat, and most Americans don't want that, either.

Quoted: Quoted: Wake up and get a load of MY POTUS.......... The whole liberal world can kiss my ass. He has brass ones, big shiny brass ones. He's got brass ones all right.  I just wish he was a conservative.  Bush is an idiot.  There, I said it.  I voted for him twice because he was better than the alternatives, but he's an idiot.  He did us a favor by not pressing for a renewal of the AWB, but he's just about single-handedly ensured that the Dems will control the White House and Congress starting in 2008.  Plan your purchases accordingly.

WTF?  Bush is conservative on about 98% of all issues.  Who in the hell are you to call him an idiot?  What fucking credentials do you have to pass judgement?  He has been kicking Tango ass all over the Middle East and has massivly increased military spending.  It dosnt matter what R prez we would have had the press would still do nothing but smear lie and try to destroy who ever was in the white house.  And finally maybe the D's will come back maybe they wont and perhaps Bush dosnt care what the polls are because he is more worried about safeguarding our country against another 9/11 or worse.  So why dont you stop and try to think about the postives a little more?

Quoted: You think insurgents from Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Egypt, and whereever else give a crap about you or your wife in Bumpdunkin, Iowa? 9/11 was most likely an isolated event. Bringing on possibly, more terroristic attacks on the world.  Madrid, Spain?  They would have never attacked the train if we werent in Iraq.

Are you truly on crack???? Maybe your a little (just a little ) more busy than i am lately but you seriously got to wake up. Although the "avalache" has taken a while to get really going, we are in a world wide struggle against, uh how can i say this without getting banned?, oh ok With Wahabbi Islam. (as opposed to Sufi i guess) 9-11 an isoloated event? Meaning what? they have no desire to do it again? or that or vigilance on US soil has stopped them? if the latter then we will ahve to keep it up till they no longer are a threat. (100 years?) This goes WAAAAY beyond Iraq and Afghanistan or even Isreal. From the south Philipinnes all the way to Morrocco (20,000 miles!)  the 'radical' Muslims have risen up and begun striking well basically everyone. Take the word from someone who's family and people had to fight against Islam domination for 700 years!! Google up a world map and use your mouse arrow to point to various points on the map and i will read you down a list of places where 'radical' Muslims are killing Religious minorities or they are the minority and are engaging in terror tactics to gain independace. When i mean independance, i mean that they refuse to live with other peoples so they terrorise them until they leave. Ready?? I'll start in south-east Asia.
S. Philipines Mindanao- 'Moros' kidnap & behead Christians have set up an insurgent army. 10000 dead.

East Papua New Gineua (indonesia)- After Indonesian Muslim Armies Annexed east Papua they have begun colonising it and forcing the natives to convert or flee to west Papua. Indonesia is so overpopulated they need to "land" so they are taking it at the expense of the native Papuans.

East Dili(indonesia) - After Muslims began moving into the area they began to overpopulate the area and began forcing the Christians to convert or leave. They set up "gangs" to try to terrorise the local Christians to leave. The Christians rose up and formed a rebel army. Civil war ensued. It ended when the UN allowed Dili to succeed from Indonesia. Imans in indonesia vowed revenge for allowing "muslim land to be taken" (meanwhile it was Christian all along). 500000 dead.

Bali (indonesia)- because it's population is NOT Muslim the radicals of the mainland did'nt like that they sold Alcohol and allowed "white women" to wear bikinis. 2 bombs were set off 6 months apart. 400 dead.

Indonesia- Local Christian populations all over the 1000 island nation are being forced to convert or leave. recently as a warning that Indonesia would not tolerate another "east dilli" two christian schoolgirls were beheaded.

Malaya- Because of growing immigration from China and other "infidel" areas they have recently introduced legislaiton that only Muslims will have "full rights" and full citizenship.

Singapore- In addition to having Draconian laws (sharia) they have outlawed the bible and most protestant sects (jehova witness, Mormons) are outlawed. Any one caught preaching another religion can face the death penalty.

now lets go to the sub continent,
India- Since 1947 india estimates that about 5 million people have been killed in Hindu-Muslim race Riots. Although India is a Hindu majority country Mulims requested and were granted their own special seperate courts, jails and legal dispensations. TO this day tensions remain very high. See Pakistan. dead 5,000,000

Pakistan- Created in  1947 Pakistan as recently as 1973 had about 25% non muslims population. Today? less that 2%. The rest were driven off (to India) or killed. Two stories that made the news recently were one Christian man was killed because there was a "rumor" that he had burned a Koran.
Another was someone had thrown a grenade into a church during serveces becuase they were "infidels".  Dead or exiled - 40,000,000!!!!!!!! PS they are also harboring Bin laden to this day in Wahziristan.

Armenia- Once a large population spread over Turkey, Syria, Iran and Russia with about 30 million people. Since 1900 they were exterminated by Turkey and Syria for being "infidels"(Christian) Now thier country is the size of RHODE ISLAND. Surronded by all Muslims nations they are being put under pressure to convert through embargos and a refusal by the Turks to give them back their land. (right of return???????????) look up on google the plight of the Armenians at the hands of the...UM..... very small minority of extremeists??

AWWW crap, i give up the list is tooo goddamn long to list all the stuff just in the last 100 years (never mind the last 1400).  One of these days I'm gonna put the entire list i have on a web site. Along with a map. Just take my word for it. This is not some "anomaly", 9-11 was NOT a freak occurance. Until we get W.W.IIish on thier ass they are not going to stop.

Quoted: Singapore- In addition to having Draconian laws (sharia) they have outlawed the bible and most protestant sects (jehova witness, Mormons) are outlawed. Any one caught preaching another religion can face the death penalty.

BS on Singapore.  From the CIA factbook:  Buddhist 42.5%, Muslim 14.9%, Taoist 8.5%, Hindu 4%, Catholic 4.8%, other Christian 9.8%, other 0.7%, none 14.8% (2000 census).  They're strict, but they're not "sharia."  

This place is getting to be more and more like Du on a daily basis.

Quoted: Well, what do you expect from those particular players? One thing I can say...how many thousands of militant scum have we killed since the begining? I am of the belief if we don't kill them there, someday we might have had to kill them here.... I'd rather see it there than here.....

My father-in-law's opinion is that we just need to kill every single one of them who are willing to die.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So.....you're saying that we shouldnt have taken Saddam out of power? I'm saying we should, but the timing was off.  We had a job to do in Afghanistan.  That, and our WMD intelligence wasn't only off, it was completely FALSE!!!!  We had no thought out exit strategy, and clearly did not account for the possible scenarios we see over there today.  We simply weren't prepared and now we're holding a hot potatoe. Incorrect. We have found radioactive material and chemical weapons in Iraq. Just not in the quantity we originally thought. Not even remotely close to what we originally thought.  Not enough in fact, to justify the invasion on Iraq.  Thus, we went in to liberate the populace without UN approval, etc etc etc. To say I'm incorrect by pointing out a couple mason jars full of chemical or radioactive nastiness doesn't counter the obvious error.  Heck I could find the ingredients to chemical weapons at Wal Mart. I guess several thousand pounds doesn't impress you. Anyway, SH already made his intentions to aid terrorist organizations and provide them with weapons if need be. The media gets wrapped around the axle about sponsoring 9/11. No, SH didn't sponsor 9/11, the connections to AQ where clear, and so was his desire to aid them in future attacks.

500 TONS of yellow cake uranium were found in Iraq...

500 TONS of yellow cake uranium were found in Iraq...

500 TONS of yellow cake uranium were found in Iraq...

Hardly "a couple mason jars full of chemical or radioactive nastiness". People can stick their heads up their asses and claim Iraq did not have WMD all they want but the 500 TONS of yellow cake uranium found in Iraq says all that is needs to say to point out the are idiot or liars.

Quoted: 500 TONS of yellow cake uranium were found in Iraq... 500 TONS of yellow cake uranium were found in Iraq... 500 TONS of yellow cake uranium were found in Iraq... Hardly "a couple mason jars full of chemical or radioactive nastiness". People can stick their heads up their asses and claim Iraq did not have WMD all they want but the 500 TONS of yellow cake uranium found in Iraq says all that is needs to say to point out the are idiot or liars.

I wasn't even addressing the yellow cake.

Quoted: Quoted: 500 TONS of yellow cake uranium were found in Iraq... 500 TONS of yellow cake uranium were found in Iraq... 500 TONS of yellow cake uranium were found in Iraq... Hardly "a couple mason jars full of chemical or radioactive nastiness". People can stick their heads up their asses and claim Iraq did not have WMD all they want but the 500 TONS of yellow cake uranium found in Iraq says all that is needs to say to point out the are idiot or liars. I wasn't even addressing the yellow cake.

I know... that was not directed at you... notice who I quoted.

Hokie I've got major problems with  Bush also, but for different reasons than you.

Iraq was an open sore that had to be addressed eventually, and I support the invasion and occupation.  Even if SH didn't have WMD's on hand (I subscribe to the moved-to-Syria theory)
he still had his chemists on the payroll, and the genie was out of the bottle.  We now know
SH was bribing European powers to lift the UN sanctions, and I have no doubt he would have reconstituted his weapons program....why else would he have cared about lifting the sanctions?  They weren't hurting him personally one little bit.

SH invaded Kuwait, which set all this in motion.  SH was handily ran out of Kuwait, and as a defeated head of state he still was left in power, all he had to do was abide by the surrender agreements he signed off on.  SH just couldn't help himself though, he fired at aircraft enforcing the no fly zone, he attempted to assasinate a former US president, and he kicked out the inspectors in '98 which even got ol' Sperm Stain Billy's back up enough to bomb his ass for 4 straight days.

We now know there was a terrorist training camp in Iraq before the invasion, we now know international terrorist Abu Nadal was a guest in Iraq;  ABC ran some of the Saddam tapes where in the mid 90's he and his cabinet were sitting around chatting about biological weapons and terrorist attacks in the United States.

SH's son's were waiting in the wings to take over once SH was wormfood, and by all accounts those boys made SH look like Mother Theresa.

Along comes 9-11, this assholes still in power, he's shown himself capable of invading a sovereign state and lobbing Scuds onto Israel, of raping the environment by uncapping oil wells, and we know he's still pissed over Gulf War 1.     The only plausable solution?  Finish the job, that should have been done in '91.

Now, I disgree with how the war's being fought now.  Everytime an IED goes off in one of these neighborhoods, that neighborhood needs leveled, because IED's can't be planted with out the collusion of the locals.  I don't think Bush any longer has the stomach to treat this like a war, and that's where I part ways with him.
MY problems with Bush started when he signed CFR;  remember, he also said he'd sign the renewal of the AWB, and I have no reason to doubt that he would of.
Bush pulls this Harriett Miers out of his ass to shove down our throat, and that was a slap in the face to his base.  
Bush will not addess the open border issue.

Last but not least on my list of dis-content-Portgate.  I've talked adnauseum on this on other threads, so I'm not gonna rehash it, but the very idea of turning our ports over to a theocratic, arab muslim jew hating nation is just absurd to me.  I know Bush says "trust me" on this, but he said the same thing with Harriet Miers.  I no longer trust him, he's as in bed with the Arabs as deep as Clinton was in with the Communist Chinese.

I quit being a 'raving fan' of GWB a few months back.

Quoted: I quit being a 'raving fan' of GWB a few months back.

I never was-he's just the Anti-KerryGore to me.

We're doing more work to rebuild third world shitholes than we are to rebuild our own fucking country, and it IS George Bush's fault along with every other blind drunk shitforbrains politician who spends even five minutes of his time worrying about someone else's civil wars.

Your countrymen are living in tents and have been for six months.  I cannot fathom why we would rebuild a mosque halfway across the world with that in mind.

Quoted: So.....you're saying that we shouldnt have taken Saddam out of power?

In general, I don't think the US should be in the business of putting nasty people out of power.  We have a long history of supporting dictators as being "the lesser of two evils".  I'm not prepared to sacrifice thousands of American lives to "free" a bunch of people who aren't willing to take control of their own destiny.  Saddam was in power because the Iraqi people allowed him power.

We use American lives to buy national security for America, not to buy "freedom" for third world countries.

What about the 3-5million+ people he's killed in 25years of power?  What about their families?  He's personally touched over 10million people through his torture and kidnappings and murders.

3000 American families have been "touched" pretty hard by this war, and that isn't counting the soldiers who have been seriously wounded.

I'd disagree with your 3-5 million number.  Let's turn this around.  How many people have we personally "touched" because of this war?  When Achmed the taxi driver is killed in a crossfire between insurgents and US troops, who do you think his family blames?

Lets go off on a tangent real quick about Hitler.  If Hitler had never gone outside of Germany, but still killed and gassed all the Jews in Germany, the US/possibly the world would still have gone in and rescued the POW's.

Not a chance.  Most of Europe (and the US) was pretty anti-Semetic.  The world would have launched protests, and perhaps started economic sanctions, but nobody would have launched a war to save "a bunch of jews".  It took a surprise attack on US territory to draw the US into the war.

Because that was the RIGHT thing to do.  Today, it seems that no one cares about anyone else but themselves and they dont care what happens to others.

There's no shortage of things that are the "right thing to do".  We could have intervened in Rwanda.  We could have invaded South Africa to end Apartheid.  We could go overthrow the Saudi government.  We could go kill Kaddafi.  We could try to free the Chinese people.  What about North Korea?  The North Korean people as a whole are probably suffering (through regular starvation) to a far greater degree than the German people were in the 1930's.

One thing that would help in Iraq is reducing troop levels.  Quite a few local Iraqi's have told us that we need to keep American's on FOBs/bases because there are less killings by insurgents.  Funny how they dont set off IED's when American's arent around.

Do you not read the news?  IED's are going off ALL THE TIME when American's aren't around.  The most dangerous job in Iraq right now is NOT being an American soldier - it's being an Iraqi police officer or soldier.  We're losing on average 2-3 soldiers a day, whereas the Iraqi security forces are losing lives at nearly 3 times that rate.

We should have taken him out of power, but we should have setup a brutal and harsh regime in it's place.  We need another Saddam but one that's for the people and wont necessarily hurt them but who is tough on the insurgency.

Bear in mind that Saddam didn't just kill people arbitrarily.  Most of the "atrocities" that Saddam are accused with are related to his mass killings of some shiite and kurdish villages.  But these are ALL places that had either (A) rebelled against his regime or (B) tried to kill him.  The dictator you describe sounds exactly like Saddam.  Before the first Gulf War, Iraqi people had the highest standard of living in the Arab world.  Highly educated, good infrastructure, and generally very liberal.  But get out of line, and Saddam would stomp on you.

If we wanted to follow your plan, it would have made more sense to kiss and make up with Saddam, in exchange for concessions from Saddam about how he governed.

And that ladies and gentlemen, is whats wrong in Iraq.  Fix those things and then maybe we'll start to regain some ground.

No, what's wrong in Iraq is that power runs for a couple of hours a day in Bagdad, the economy is in the shitter, and people worry about getting killed every day.  


Before the war, I agreed with the rational for going to war to a limited degree, but I opposed the war because I thought we would fuck up the execution badly.  It's pretty clear I was right.  Had we gone in with twice as many troops, prevented the mass looting of the infrastructure, not fired the entire Iraqi army, and not had the Abu Ghraib embarrassment, I think we'd be in a very different situation today in Iraq.

As a conservative, my one sentence description of the Bush presidency would be "The presidency of squandered opportunity."

Quoted: How Bush ever thought he could try and turn a bunch of fucking savages into a functioning society is beyond me. Personally,I don't think one US soldiers life is worth trying to turn that shithole into something that resembles humanity.

Fixed.  This is Hokie's thread, afterall.

Quoted: <snip> First, you said there were no Tango's in Iraq, did you forget Salmon Pac the major terroist training camp that was run by the Iraq's?  How about the major Al Quada operative that was captured there when we invaded who had a office in Bagdad?  The point is that there was all kinds of Tango's in Iraq and there still are today.  Are there more now then before we invaded? that I would say a hearty yes to but better there getting wacked by our military and the new Iraq military then else where killing americans or our friends. <snip>

So it's the "bug zapper" effect?  Cool, I hadn't heard that theory before.

BTW, I *like* it.


ETA: The trick to shooting fish in a barrel, is to first get all the fish *into* a barrel.

Quoted: Quoted: <snip> <snip> 40% still isn't very popular.

Popular != good for the country

Quoted: Quoted: I't heartless and it's horrible, but I seriously believe that the only solution to this is to either a) nuke them indiscriminately and then drill for oil with a glass cutter, or b) wean ourselves off oil completely, and then quarantine them and let them kill each other to their heart's content. Sadly, I don't see us getting off oil anytime soon. Throw in senor Chavez sitting astride our biggest supplier, and I see dark days ahead. I agree with you.  I just don't agree that the Iraq war was mainly about humanitarian reasons.

Name the last war that was.

Quoted: <snip> If we wanted to follow your plan, it would have made more sense to kiss and make up with Saddam, in exchange for concessions from Saddam about how he governed. <snip>

I don't think we could have "kissed and made up" with Saddam.  It's like in the mob, when a "friend" tries to have you killed.  You can't very well just turn the other cheek.  There must be *some* change in personnel.

I've often wondered if we could have convinced either Uday or Qusay to off Saddam, and then allow [whichever son] to take power, in exchange for those concessions in governing style you mentioned earlier.

I'm not saying I would necessarily think it's a *good* idea, I have just often wondered about it.

The whole liberal world can kiss my ass. He has brass ones, big shiny brass ones.

What an insightful, intelligent rebuttal.

I have no problem with President Bush. The United States Military is in the business to destroy and kill the enemy. Period! What ever it takes.

Back in September of 2001 he told the nation it was going to be a long war. It's far from over. Iran, Korea, the Horn of Africa, to name just a few.

Bring it on!

Quoted: 500 TONS of yellow cake uranium were found in Iraq... 500 TONS of yellow cake uranium were found in Iraq... 500 TONS of yellow cake uranium were found in Iraq...

They were found in Iraq after the end of the FIRST gulf war.  They were then sealed by IAEA, and remain sealed today.  Saddam couldn't have accessed it in any useful way without bringing down real, immediate military action.

Quoted: Malaya- Because of growing immigration from China and other "infidel" areas they have recently introduced legislaiton that only Muslims will have "full rights" and full citizenship. Singapore- In addition to having Draconian laws (sharia) they have outlawed the bible and most protestant sects (jehova witness, Mormons) are outlawed. Any one caught preaching another religion can face the death penalty.

These are both simply BS.  

All Malaysians have full citizenship, regardless of race.  There is affirmitive action legislation in place that gives education benefits and government contracts to ethnic Malays (and note that this is a race, not a religion), but this isn't particularly different from what the US government does.

Singapore is so far from Sharia, it isn't even funny.  Muslims constitute a small minority, and Singapore offers total religious freedom.  

The fact that both of these claims are completely fictional makes me question the rest of your claims, but I don't have enough specific knowledge to address the others.  But I lived in Malaysia and Singapore for several years, and you are typing out of your ass on those two countries...


ETA:

Bali (indonesia)- because it's population is NOT Muslim the radicals of the mainland did'nt like that they sold Alcohol and allowed "white women" to wear bikinis. 2 bombs were set off 6 months apart. 400 dead.

They hit Bali because they could kill the most foreigners.  You can buy alcohol almost anywhere in Indonesia, and I can assure you that white women can wear bikinis anywhere they want, not just in Bali.

Quoted: One thing that would help in Iraq is reducing troop levels.  Quite a few local Iraqi's have told us that we need to keep American's on FOBs/bases because there are less killings by insurgents.  Funny how they dont set off IED's when American's arent around.

Does that statement mean American soldiers or Americans in general, including the press?

Quoted: Quoted: What about the 3-5million+ people he's killed in 25years of power?  What about their families?  He's personally touched over 10million people through his torture and kidnappings and murders. I suspect that once this civil war gets cooking, those numbers are going to look pretty mild. If full-on civil war does break out, we're going to have own up to the fact that we're the ones that destabilized the country. Not looking forward to that. And IF WMDs exist somewhere in Iraq, you can bet that one of the factions will use it against the other. And that will be really bad.

Great point.  It is what I have believed and said all along.  These people are advanced only slightly beyond the stone age.  Remember, UBL claims the 911 attacks were in large part due to the fact that the US "defiled" Arab soil when we went to Kuwait.  I can only imagine what these nuts will claim if Iraq does deteriorate to full scale civil war.  Will it unite the Arab world against us even more?

Blake

I would say the media and the democrats have done much harm to the war effort.  Terrorists can follow the media and see that the American public is becoming tired of the war and lost the will to fight so they are trying to increase their violence.  I am really worried about Iraq.........that place has gone down the shitter in a matter of weeks and violence in Afghanistan is also on the rise.  We had better put the hammer down and do some bad-guy killing if we are going to win this.

What is going to be the real kick in the balls is that there will be political fallout enabling the dems to possibly re-gain congress and the WH.

Quoted: Quoted: There's a good story down south that the Marines (I think it may have been Basra) had a 7pm curfew in effect and were kicking the ever-living shit out of people's doors everyday/night.  There were ZERO ied's and suicide bombings. Then the British came in and took it over and they were a lot more lax on things.  They lifted the curfew and the British Commander even had his men take off their Kevlar's and Body Armor to give the people a "warm and fuzzy feeling". Attacks rose 70% in the first few weeks/month when the Brits took over and ever since, they havent been able to regain control. Not dissing the British or anything but how the fucking hell are you going to come in and completely change everything based on what "you think you know" vs. what a unit already knows and has been doing for months? Oh wait, that's how EVERY unit is when they replace someone.  Always making up new rules and changing things to how they WANT it, now how it NEEDS to be. Nice story but its 100% Bullshite!  The US Marines did not take or occupy Basra. USMC did not occupy any town down south, they fought through them in joint UK/US ops and carried on straight through north. Garrison duties were a British responsibility. ANdy

Andy,

Not quite correct. The USMC (2/25 Marines) occupied An Naziriyia from April - Sept of 2003, at which time they were relieved by the Italians....

ETA: Andy, you're slipping.. Thats very unlike you..

Quoted: What is going to be the real kick in the balls is that there will be political fallout enabling the dems to possibly re-gain congress and the WH.

 Yeah and I can't wait to get some of my money back. And I'll be able to keep my guns. The Seniors will not be screwed over anymore. Not to mention the kids that will have to pay for this idiot. I just wish it would happen sooner than later. Hopefully we don't see another 1929. I am so sick and tired of the upper middle class paying all the taxes.....
   Other than destroying Foriegn Relations, Education, Medicare, Healthcare, Homeland Security (Not the Office That is a mess he created), Manufacturing, Outsourceing Tech Industry, almost Social Security, and running a record Debt up. He has been wonderful.... Besides the fact he has mislead us on damn near every major issue in his rule..... 2008 couldn't come soon enough........

Quoted: What is going to be the real kick in the balls is that there will be political fallout enabling the dems to possibly re-gain congress and the WH.

This two party system we have sucks   I'm not impressed by many Politicians these days
A few stand out like Tancredo and Weldon but I dread to see who's going to running for thr WH come '08


Regarding Iraq I'd like to paraphrase columnist James Pinkerton

For the West, broadly speaking the highest value is freedom,including freedom of religious expression. But for the Muslim world, the highest value seems to be Islamic piety.
Not everyone thirsts for liberty. Plenty of people around the world, maybe most, thirst insted to resrict liberty. We advocate Democratization but get Islamization.

Quoted: Quoted: What is going to be the real kick in the balls is that there will be political fallout enabling the dems to possibly re-gain congress and the WH.  Yeah and I can't wait to get some of my money back. And I'll be able to keep my guns. The Seniors will not be screwed over anymore. Not to mention the kids that will have to pay for this idiot. I just wish it would happen sooner than later. Hopefully we don't see another 1929. I am so sick and tired of the upper middle class paying all the taxes.....    Other than destroying Foriegn Relations, Education, Medicare, Healthcare, Homeland Security (Not the Office That is a mess he created), Manufacturing, Outsourceing Tech Industry, almost Social Security, and running a record Debt up. He has been wonderful.... Besides the fact he has mislead us on damn near every major issue in his rule..... 2008 couldn't come soon enough........

Ummm the middle class don't pay all the taxes, he let Senator Kennedy write the Education bill, he is giving free drugs to seniors.  I wish he was destroying government funded education and healthcare.  Bush also has no control over outsourcing because PRIVATE companies control that, it isn't any of the government's damn business.  If you really cared about improving the economy you would urge for more tax cuts for the upper income earners and do away with the punative tax system that is in place.

The seeds of WWIII and economic collapse are bieng sown. Watch your portfolio, stay ready and look out for your family. There is nothing else you can do. Seriously.  The politicians have sooo betrayed this nation...