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Posted: 2/27/2006 2:29:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2006 2:33:26 PM EDT by TRW]
Is there any use pleading innocent to these things? Does it do any good to go to court or should I just plead guilty and pay the fine?

I'm 46 years old and never had a speeding ticket in my life till today.

I'm going south, the officer was going north on route 9.

We pass and I look in my mirror and see he does a u-turn and proceeds to head south and gets in my lane. He is about a half mile back.

As soon as I saw him do the u-turn, I checked my speed, I was doing between 55 and 60. I don't know the speed limit there (found out later it was 45) but back off on the gas and decide to let the truck coast down to 50. I don't know if he is interested in me or not but I am in the left lane and an oil truck is in the right lane lumbering along at what I estimate to be between 35 and 40. I decide to get over in the right lane as soon as I clear the oil truck just in case he wants to pull me over or if he wants to head south to some other customer or call. As soon as I am clear of the oil truck I signal and pull into the right lane and he follows and turns on his lights. Oh shit.

Officer: Sir, where are you headed?
TRW: Ahhh....Home depot?
Officer: Are you in a hurry?
TRW: Not really.
Officer: Do you know how fast you were going?
TRW: No, but I had established a good following distance from that little SUV in front of me and set my speed to the flow of traffic, so if I was speeding, so was ............
Officer: Okay, hold on.

Clearly exasperated, he goes back to his car to write the ticket.

5 minutes later he is back and hands me the ticket.

Officer: I was just going to give you a warning till you started that stuff about the SUV. All I saw was an oil truck. By the time I got turned around and was behind you, I had you doing 55.
TRW: The SUV was about 100 yards ahead of the oil truck in the left lane. I'm sorry if I was........
Officer: Sir, do you have any questions on how to handle the ticket.
TRW: I don't think so....
Officer: Okay, be careful pulling back into traffic.

He takes off and I continue on to Home Depot. I park the truck and look at the ticket.

The ticket says I was doing 70 in a 45

Up to that point I was just going to plead guilty, take my lumps and pay the fine. Now I'm pissed. During our conversation he never once mentioned that I was doing 70 but that is how he wrote the ticket.

What if anything can I do or am I screwed. The only time speed was mentioned was when he said and I quote from above "By the time I got turned around and was behind you, I had you doing 55"

How does he know I was going 70 and I know I damn well wasn't .

Also, if he visually contrasted me against an oil truck going 10 miles below the speed limit and I was going 10 miles over, that is a 20 MPH differential but still, 10 miles over is 55 and not 70.

I don't mind taking my lumps but don't tell me to my face that I was going 55 and then write 70 on the ticket!

Any SERIOUS advice will be greatly appreciated.

Oh yeah. On the way home from Home Depot, the same guy had somebody else pulled over on St. Andrews and was in the process of giving them a ticket.

All I could think to myself was "damn, it must be getting close to the end of the month and he is short his quota" and then I thought about what I had just said to myself and realized that I wasn't so far off the mark. Today is 27 February.

Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:32:34 PM EDT
probably should have kept your mouth shut, when you make up excuses cops usually just get annoyed because they hear them all day long.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:33:10 PM EDT
Pay it and move on.

Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:35:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
probably should have kept your mouth shut, when you make up excuses cops usually just get annoyed because they hear them all day long.



Yeah, that has kept me out of trouble in the past but I felt like shit today and I guess it affected my attitude.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:35:50 PM EDT
Just me...

Were you speeding?

If you were, go pay the fine.

I've never fought a fine I knew I was guilty of.

If you are innocent, fight it.

If you were speeding, pay it.

I fail to see the moral imperitive here.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:39:21 PM EDT
Rule 1: NEVER say you dont know how fast you were going. If you honestly don't know GUESS. Use a number, but NEVER say you don't know, because then you have no recourse to argue from.

Rule 2: NEVER try to bullshit a cop. Regardless of what you just said, it came off as bullshit (no offense) and cops don't need to hear it. Don't tell him a story, and the word "but" should never leave your lips.

Rule 3: ALWAYS look at what speed the cop writes on the ticket. Visually READ the actual ticket, regardless of what he may say to you verbally.

Rule 4: You have a RIGHT to see how he clocked you at that speed. He should be able to produce a radar gun with that speed on it.

You've put yourself between a rock and a hard place. The best you could have hoped for was a your word vs the cop's word. Basically during the stop you waived any recourse you had, and now you're pretty screwed.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:39:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2006 2:43:42 PM EDT by TRW]

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

I fail to see the moral imperitive here.



Then why not just put 55 in a 45 on the ticket if thats what he told me?

Does he get extra brownie points for lying on a ticket?
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:41:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
Rule 1: NEVER say you dont know how fast you were going. If you honestly don't know GUESS. Use a number, but NEVER say you don't know, because then you have no recourse to argue from.

Rule 2: NEVER try to bullshit a cop. Regardless of what you just said, it came off as bullshit (no offense) and cops don't need to hear it. Don't tell him a story, and the word "but" should never leave your lips.

Rule 3: ALWAYS look at what speed the cop writes on the ticket. Visually READ the actual ticket, regardless of what he may say to you verbally.

Rule 4: You have a RIGHT to see how he clocked you at that speed. He should be able to produce a radar gun with that speed on it.
You've put yourself between a rock and a hard place. The best you could have hoped for was a your word vs the cop's word. Basically during the stop you waived any recourse you had, and now you're pretty screwed.



What? A LEO does not have to show you squat.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:43:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TRW:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
Just me...

Were you speeding?

If you were, go pay the fine.

I've never fought a fine I knew I was guilty of.

If you are innocent, fight it.

If you were speeding, pay it.

I fail to see the moral imperitive here.



Then why not just put 55 in a 45 on the ticket if thats what he told me?

Does he get extra brownie points for lying on a ticket?



Let's begin again.

Were you speeding?
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:44:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
Rule 4: You have a RIGHT to see how he clocked you at that speed. He should be able to produce a radar gun with that speed on it.




Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:44:45 PM EDT
It really depends on your state.

Some states are geared up for revenue enhancement so much that it is pointless to fight them.

A few states, Texas among them still respect your right to a jury trial and it is worthwhile to fight them.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:45:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

What? A LEO does not have to show you squat.



I looked into fighting a ticket in FL and came across that rule. Might be a state to state thing, or total BS, but even if they're not required to show you anything, if you ask for it and they can't or won't produce anything, it gives you a good leg to stand on in court for disputing the charges.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:45:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
Just me...

Were you speeding?

If you were, go pay the fine.

I've never fought a fine I knew I was guilty of.

If you are innocent, fight it.

If you were speeding, pay it.

I fail to see the moral imperitive here.



Did you not read the post?


As an aside, I got pulled over in OR for 92 in a 65...

Officer: Why are you driving so fast?
Me: Got a long way to go.

Hey, it WAS the truth!
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:45:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TRW:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

I fail to see the moral imperitive here.



Then why not just put 55 in a 45 on the ticket if thats what he told me?

Does he get extra brownie points for lying on a ticket?



no cops get no points of any kind for tickets, i have rode with officers who wrote no tickets, the time of the month or shift has nothing to do with the amount of tickets they have to write.

MORE TICKETS= MORE PAPERWORK
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:45:27 PM EDT

an oil truck is in the right lane lumbering along at what I estimate to be between 35 and 40

I hate it when cops do that! I've never gotten a speeding ticket, but I've been with quite a few people that have when they weren't speeding. Usually it's just the situation you described. The cop mistakenly assumed because you were going much faster than the other traffic that you had to be speeding.

The funniest one was when I was in a friend's automatic Chevette on I-85. We were passing a couple of logging trucks. The car wouldn't keep-up 55 MPH up the hills, but we were passing a long line of trucks that were only doing 15 MPH or so. The cop wrote the ticket for 85 MPH since the difference in speed appeared to be so great. The best part was that I knew the magistrate, and he had just bought an automatic Chevette for his daughter. The magistrate laughed at the cop when the cop claimed in court that the Chevette was doing 85 MPH up hill. I lost a lot of respect for the SC Highway Patrol that day. The officer was stupid enough to lie when under oath.

Today is 27 February.

Always drive slower the last couple of days of the month! You always see a lot more people stopped for nothing.z
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:45:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

What? A LEO does not have to show you squat.



I looked into fighting a ticket in FL and came across that rule. Might be a state to state thing, or total BS, but even if they're not required to show you anything, if you ask for it and they can't or won't produce anything, it gives you a good leg to stand on in court for disputing the charges.



Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:47:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
Just me...

Were you speeding?

If you were, go pay the fine.

I've never fought a fine I knew I was guilty of.

If you are innocent, fight it.

If you were speeding, pay it.

I fail to see the moral imperitive here.



Did you not read the post?


As an aside, I got pulled over in OR for 92 in a 65...

Officer: Why are you driving so fast?
Me: Got a long way to go.

Hey, it WAS the truth!



So, I go to my other position......

I fail to see the issue...

Go fight it!



Friggin speeding tickets.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:48:43 PM EDT
Any chance that the stop was recorded from the LEOs vehicle? I'd guess since it happened today that it hasn't been erased yet. See if you can somehow get a copy of it, or at least be able to view your stop in the presence of someone from their department. Not sure if you can do that, but its an idea.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:49:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Pay it and move on.




Take the driving course and pay the ticket. Then move on.

________________________________


Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:50:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
Any chance that the stop was recorded from the LEOs vehicle? I'd guess since it happened today that it hasn't been erased yet. See if you can somehow get a copy of it, or at least be able to view your stop in the presence of someone from their department. Not sure if you can do that, but its an idea.



Ahhh. What is that going to prove or disprove?
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:51:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By TRW:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
Just me...

Were you speeding?

If you were, go pay the fine.

I've never fought a fine I knew I was guilty of.

If you are innocent, fight it.

If you were speeding, pay it.

I fail to see the moral imperitive here.



Then why not just put 55 in a 45 on the ticket if thats what he told me?

Does he get extra brownie points for lying on a ticket?



Let's begin again.

Were you speeding?



NO...lets not begin again.

I was doing 55 in a 45 the ticket should reflect that if thats what he told me.

If he lies about stupid piddly ass shit like that, what else does he lie about.

Ohhhh....he's an LEO....he's above reproach. We shouldn't question him. He's perfect.

How about setting the fucking example.

I never claimed I wasn't speeding but why blatantly lie on a ticket? Why add 15 miles to my speed if the 10 miles over I was doing will suffice?

What is the agenda with that and why did he do it. That is all that has me pissed.



Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:51:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
Rule 1: NEVER say you dont know how fast you were going. If you honestly don't know GUESS. Use a number, but NEVER say you don't know, because then you have no recourse to argue from.



Close, but not quite. If they ask if you know how fast you were going, say "yes," and nothing more.

If you give them any number that just helps them build thier case against you. If you tell them a number that is too low they will say you are a liar, if you say a number higher then what they got then they will use that as a confession of guilt.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:55:33 PM EDT
ya i thought this was true about they are required to see the speed meter. He told me it resets once he turns off the car and doesnt have to be shown. Next time i ask though im going to make him write what he said on the ticket before i sign it.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:55:42 PM EDT

Rule 4: You have a RIGHT to see how he clocked you at that speed. He should be able to produce a radar gun with that speed on it.

Maybe in some states, but not in TN or anywhere I am familiar with.
As to whether or not it will do any good to fight it, it honestly depends on the locale. Some courts (probably most) lean heavily in favor of the officer. In our local court I've not ever seen anyone plead not guilty and win. Ever. That being said, you may come out ALOT cheaper by going to court, since its your first offense the judge may let it go or maybe just pay court costs. Talk to some people and see if you can gather any intel on the local courts and go from there.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:57:00 PM EDT
Go to court plead guilty, be very nice to the judge, be very apologetic, and they will most likely reduce the fine.

Trust me I've been there too many times. I have three driving schools under my belt
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:57:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OFFascist:
It really depends on your state.

Some states are geared up for revenue enhancement so much that it is pointless to fight them.

A few states, Texas among them still respect your right to a jury trial and it is worthwhile to fight them.



Thank you, thats all I really wanted to know.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:57:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
Any chance that the stop was recorded from the LEOs vehicle? I'd guess since it happened today that it hasn't been erased yet. See if you can somehow get a copy of it, or at least be able to view your stop in the presence of someone from their department. Not sure if you can do that, but its an idea.



Ahhh. What is that going to prove or disprove?



That he told the poster that he was going 55 and wrote a ticket for 70.

It might simply be an error, a case of him writing something when he meant something else.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:58:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lethalppl:
ya i thought this was true about they are required to see the speed meter. He told me it resets once he turns off the car and doesnt have to be shown. Next time i ask though im going to make him write what he said on the ticket before i sign it.



And when he tells you to pound sand, are you still not going to sign it?

Hope you have fun making bond.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:58:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Originally Posted By TRW:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

I fail to see the moral imperitive here.



Then why not just put 55 in a 45 on the ticket if thats what he told me?

Does he get extra brownie points for lying on a ticket?



no cops get no points of any kind for tickets, i have rode with officers who wrote no tickets, the time of the month or shift has nothing to do with the amount of tickets they have to write.

MORE TICKETS= MORE PAPERWORK



Depends on the jurisdiction. In some, they are required to write tickets so that their on duty time can be accounted for.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:58:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:00:00 PM EDT
Off topic: I've never understood the whole asking do you know how fast you were going deal.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:00:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
70 in a 45? Get a lawyer.

Frankly I'd be tempted to file a personnel complaint over those kind of shenanigans. I probably wouldn't, but he may need some increased supervision from above.



Eeeeeeevil shenanigans.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:01:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Off topic: I've never understood the whole asking do you know how fast you were going deal.



Its to get you to admit that you were speeding.

If it goes to a trial the officer can say that you confessed your speed.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:02:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:02:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
Any chance that the stop was recorded from the LEOs vehicle? I'd guess since it happened today that it hasn't been erased yet. See if you can somehow get a copy of it, or at least be able to view your stop in the presence of someone from their department. Not sure if you can do that, but its an idea.



Ahhh. What is that going to prove or disprove?



That he told the poster that he was going 55 and wrote a ticket for 70.

It might simply be an error, a case of him writing something when he meant something else.



Could be but it would not matter where I worked. Speeding is speeding. Could have been a slip of the tounge.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:03:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OFFascist:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Off topic: I've never understood the whole asking do you know how fast you were going deal.



Its to get you to admit that you were speeding.

If it goes to a trial the officer can say that you confessed your speed.



I've NEVER EVER seen that come up in a trial. NEVER EVER.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:03:23 PM EDT
Last ticket I got, I hired a lawyer. I did not try to get out of it, I was speeding. If you agree to take some stupid class and pay a fine the judge will likely reduce the charge. Mine got dropped to defective vehicle. BTW I was out of town and the court would not postpone my court date so I had to get a lawyer.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:03:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:03:37 PM EDT
In Indiana you can ask to see the radar gun.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:03:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cdhicks99:
Go to court plead guilty, be very nice to the judge, be very apologetic, and they will most likely reduce the fine.

Trust me I've been there too many times. I have three driving schools under my belt



Here in NY we don't go to court unless you plan to plead innocent.

I'm guilty, I'll pay the fine. I was just upset that he tacked on 15 extra MPH over and above what he told me.

Also, if the cop asks questions, but doesn't like the answers (excuses)...then why fucking ask THEM.

It's almost as if they are saying to themselves "let me set this hayseed civilian up for failure by asking questions I don't want the answers to anyway and then when I don't get the expected 'yes, sir, yes sir, three bags full" response my EGO NEEDS, I'll sleep better tonight knowing I helped him dig his own verbal grave.

Cops....gotta love em.....or NOT!
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:04:04 PM EDT

Hire one of the thousands of traffic lawyers. it'll probably cost about the same but make them work for the money. Sadly, law enforcement has become mostly a revenue enhancer. The actual officer is only doing what he is programmed to do by the greedy spenders of city/state funds.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:04:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:04:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Could be but it would not matter where I worked. Speeding is speeding. Could have been a slip of the tounge.



I believe it matters quite a bit in alot of states. Fines for speeding usually arent a one size fits all thing, your fine usually goes up in increments depending on how much over your speed was.

Also in some states if you are going something like 20+ over you also get the additional charge of reckless driving. Thankfully that is not the case in Texas.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:04:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nfleming:
In Indiana you can ask to see the radar gun.



Asking and having to show is two different things.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:06:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:06:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By OFFascist:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Off topic: I've never understood the whole asking do you know how fast you were going deal.



Its to get you to admit that you were speeding.

If it goes to a trial the officer can say that you confessed your speed.



I've NEVER EVER seen that come up in a trial. NEVER EVER.



Happens all the time up here.



New one for me. I never worried about it. I knew one officer get his ass chewed out by a Judge for making notes on the back of the ticket concerning the persons attitude.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:07:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
Any chance that the stop was recorded from the LEOs vehicle? I'd guess since it happened today that it hasn't been erased yet. See if you can somehow get a copy of it, or at least be able to view your stop in the presence of someone from their department. Not sure if you can do that, but its an idea.



Ahhh. What is that going to prove or disprove?



The dispute between 55 (LEOs words) and 70 (on the ticket).
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:09:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

...I knew one officer get his ass chewed out by a Judge for making notes on the back of the ticket concerning the persons attitude.



Whether he writes it on the ticket or not, your attitude is EVERYTHING when you're pulled over. I've been pulled over a few times for 15+ over and got away with a warning because i was very polite, didnt kiss ass, and didnt bullshit
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:11:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TRW:




two words.

Deferred Adjudication.
Will be like it never happened, UNLIKE defensive driving, where it still goes on you state record.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:12:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2006 3:15:40 PM EDT by TRW]

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By TRW:

Originally Posted By cdhicks99:
Go to court plead guilty, be very nice to the judge, be very apologetic, and they will most likely reduce the fine.

Trust me I've been there too many times. I have three driving schools under my belt



Here in NY we don't go to court unless you plan to plead innocent.

I'm guilty, I'll pay the fine. I was just upset that he tacked on 15 extra MPH over and above what he told me.

Also, if the cop asks questions, but doesn't like the answers (excuses)...then why fucking ask THEM.

It's almost as if they are saying to themselves "let me set this hayseed civilian up for failure by asking questions I don't want the answers to anyway and then when I don't get the expected 'yes, sir, yes sir, three bags full" response my EGO NEEDS, I'll sleep better tonight knowing I helped him dig his own verbal grave.

Cops....gotta love em.....or NOT!



He lied and wrote you the higher speed because 15 over will affect your insurance rates, but go ahead and plead to it....



Two pages and I finally get an answer and an impact. Thank you!

I have a friend who is a lawyer. I'll ask him to reccomend a good trafic lawyer and see what if anything can be done.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:17:37 PM EDT
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