Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 2/27/2006 7:26:54 AM EDT
So now Bush is going to get it from the right and the left.

It Didn’t Work


"I can tell you the main reason behind all our woes — it is America." The New York Times reporter is quoting the complaint of a clothing merchant in a Sunni stronghold in Iraq. "Everything that is going on between Sunni and Shiites, the troublemaker in the middle is America."

One can't doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed. The same edition of the paper quotes a fellow of the American Enterprise Institute. Mr. Reuel Marc Gerecht backed the American intervention. He now speaks of the bombing of the especially sacred Shiite mosque in Samara and what that has precipitated in the way of revenge. He concludes that “The bombing has completely demolished” what was being attempted — to bring Sunnis into the defense and interior ministries.

Our mission has failed because Iraqi animosities have proved uncontainable by an invading army of 130,000 Americans. The great human reserves that call for civil life haven't proved strong enough. No doubt they are latently there, but they have not been able to contend against the ice men who move about in the shadows with bombs and grenades and pistols.

The Iraqis we hear about are first indignant, and then infuriated, that Americans aren't on the scene to protect them and to punish the aggressors. And so they join the clothing merchant who says that everything is the fault of the Americans.

The Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, elucidates on the complaint against Americans. It is not only that the invaders are American, it is that they are "Zionists." It would not be surprising to learn from an anonymously cited American soldier that he can understand why Saddam Hussein was needed to keep the Sunnis and the Shiites from each others' throats.

A problem for American policymakers — for President Bush, ultimately — is to cope with the postulates and decide how to proceed.

One of these postulates, from the beginning, was that the Iraqi people, whatever their tribal differences, would suspend internal divisions in order to get on with life in a political structure that guaranteed them religious freedom.

The accompanying postulate was that the invading American army would succeed in training Iraqi soldiers and policymkers to cope with insurgents bent on violence.

This last did not happen. And the administration has, now, to cope with failure.
It can defend itself historically, standing by the inherent reasonableness of the postulates. After all, they govern our policies in Latin America, in Africa, and in much of Asia. The failure in Iraq does not force us to generalize that violence and antidemocratic movements always prevail. It does call on us to adjust to the question, What do we do when we see that the postulates do not prevail — in the absence of interventionist measures (we used these against Hirohito and Hitler) which we simply are not prepared to take? It is healthier for the disillusioned American to concede that in one theater in the Mideast, the postulates didn't work. The alternative would be to abandon the postulates. To do that would be to register a kind of philosophical despair. The killer insurgents are not entitled to blow up the shrine of American idealism.

Mr. Bush has a very difficult internal problem here because to make the kind of concession that is strategically appropriate requires a mitigation of policies he has several times affirmed in high-flown pronouncements. His challenge is to persuade himself that he can submit to a historical reality without forswearing basic commitments in foreign policy.

He will certainly face the current development as military leaders are expected to do: They are called upon to acknowledge a tactical setback, but to insist on the survival of strategic policies.

Yes, but within their own counsels, different plans have to be made. And the kernel here is the acknowledgment of defeat.


I do not know if WFB is correct, but it certainly is a blow to the administration when perhaps the premier conservative spokesperson is jumping ship.

I doubt our political culture is really up to any difficult task. Perhaps Afghanistan and Iraq were aberations, and we will now go back to empty threats and blowing up tents with cruise missiles.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 7:29:12 AM EDT
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

And there's ALOT of opinions out there that don't seem to remember WWII.

Link Posted: 2/27/2006 7:31:36 AM EDT
The Sunni's and the Shiite's are killing each other. How is this a "defeat"?
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 7:34:42 AM EDT
Buckley is getting senile. Plus the idea that in 2 years we can totally eliminate thousands of years of religious and sectarian strife is fucking stupid.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 7:49:09 AM EDT
Actually, I've never regarded Buckley as that much of a conservative. Yes, he puts himself up as the leader of the Conservatives, but he really is just a fuzzy self-styled intellectual who pontificates, but has no real solidity to him. He can talk in debating clubs, but it is all an intellectual exercise, a proposition, not a position. Possibly a more refined version of Bill O'reilly (although Mr. O'Reilly seems to have more belief in his positions), with a bit of Schwarzenegger RINO thrown in the mix.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 7:51:29 AM EDT

One of these postulates, from the beginning, was that the Iraqi people, whatever their tribal differences, would suspend internal divisions in order to get on with life in a political structure that guaranteed them religious freedom.
......The alternative would be to abandon the postulates. To do that would be to register a kind of philosophical despair.


I abandoned this postulate quite some time ago. I wouldn't say that my opinion is philosophical despair, just a reawakening to the old colonialist view that some cultures are populated by barbarians who are incapable of maintaining a reasonable, peaceable government. Iraqi culture is one of those cultures.
In making the comparison to WWII, I would say that the hardiness and values of the surviving German and Japanese peoples,cleansed of their fascism, were adequate to the task of recreating civilized nations. They aren't crippled by their own culture as Iraqis are.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 7:52:45 AM EDT
Buckley has the most contrived accent I have ever heard.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 7:56:15 AM EDT
I don't think you can argue with him too much. Note he says, "America's objective in Iraq has failed." I agree with that sentiment regardless of which objective you signed on for. Anyone would have to admit that our single objective (WMD) has morphed as conditions have changed (into Democracy, etc.). I've been willing to go along because the goal was noble. However, we underestimate these "peoples'" hatred for one another. We have failed to supplant religious rivalry with democratic ideals.

I don't say, nor does Buckley, that we should cut and run. At the same time we must not continue to talk of how great it's all working for them when the facts show otherwise. Hell, at times I expect to turn on Fox News and see Baghdad Bob as their newest field reporter, "Democracy is really taking hold. Reports of violence are simply falsehoods. Peace is all there is in Iraq." At the same time someone is beheaded in the background.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 7:57:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Poodleshooter:
I would say that the hardiness and values of the surviving German and Japanese peoples,cleansed of their fascism, were adequate to the task of recreating civilized nations. They aren't crippled by their own culture as Iraqis Muslims are.



Excellent point.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 8:00:02 AM EDT
Well I guess that's it. Throw your hands up in the air boys, we're heading home.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 8:02:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 8:04:39 AM EDT
Sectarian violence will not be contained
American support will wane as time goes on.


The major parallel between Iraq and Nam is that if Iraq is lost it iwll be primarily lost right here in the US.

Hopefully our mission will suceed(and I never thought it was about WMDs from the beginning) but I see the ME becoming more violent, not less so and when the SHTF it is going to get really, really ugly. The death and destruction that the nations of Islam bring upon themsleves will be horrendous indeed.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 8:16:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2006 8:21:04 AM EDT by Mr-H]

Originally Posted By ClayP:
Buckley has the most contrived accent I have ever heard.



LOL I agree. I watched a debate on the existence of God that Buckley moderated, and I couldn't make out half of what he said through that accent. I don't think the scolars (who were debating each other) could either, by the looks on their faces and their delayed responses to Buckley.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 8:20:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 8:27:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 8:28:02 AM EDT
If they acheive true democratic process in Iraq, we will not like the results. They will vote in a faction just as violent as Hamas. Or what we have in Iran. The problem is not the lack of free elections. The problem is the basic tenets of Islam. True Wahabi Islam cannot co-exist with Western society. It never has and it never will.

And those two sects have been warring with each other since 700 AD (or thereabouts). A ballot box will not stop it. I beleive that the experiement in democracy will fail in the Middle East.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 8:36:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Greywolf2112:
Plus the idea that in 2 years we can totally eliminate thousands of years of religious and sectarian strife is fucking stupid.


Fixed.

There is one answer here: balkanize the place. Turkey can kiss our asses if they don't want NewKurdistan on their border.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 8:38:41 AM EDT

William F. Buckley declares defeat in Iraq


Who? Is that the kid that bags my groceries at the supermarket?
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 10:55:45 AM EDT
We have actually already won. Iraqis love us and, more importantly, we love them. Oil is presently paying for the entire war. There is nothing else going on in the world for us to be worried about. The homeland is secure. The influx of non-skilled and non-English speaking migrants is a huge benefit to our first world economy. Health care is great and getting better and less expensive by the day.

Fox News ROCKS.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 11:12:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AROptics:
We have actually already won. Iraqis love us and, more importantly, we love them. Oil is presently paying for the entire war. There is nothing else going on in the world for us to be worried about. The homeland is secure. The influx of non-skilled and non-English speaking migrants is a huge benefit to our first world economy. Health care is great and getting better and less expensive by the day.

Fox News ROCKS.



Link Posted: 2/27/2006 11:33:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ClayP:
Buckley has the most contrived accent I have ever heard.



Yeah really, Whats up with that????? He has the most phoney "wasp" accent i've ever heard. He's like Madonna! lol! another diva with a superiority complex.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 11:47:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AROptics:
We have actually already won. Iraqis love us and, more importantly, we love them. Oil is presently paying for the entire war. There is nothing else going on in the world for us to be worried about. The homeland is secure. The influx of non-skilled and non-English speaking migrants is a huge benefit to our first world economy. Health care is great and getting better and less expensive by the day.

Fox News ROCKS.



Oh come on now, you can troll a bit less obvious than that!
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 11:58:38 AM EDT
Arab countires perhaps, muslim is to broad a term. ie Turkey is managing very well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By Poodleshooter:
I would say that the hardiness and values of the surviving German and Japanese peoples,cleansed of their fascism, were adequate to the task of recreating civilized nations. They aren't crippled by their own culture as Iraqis Muslims are.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Excellent point.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 12:09:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By falaholic1:

Originally Posted By AROptics:
We have actually already won. Iraqis love us and, more importantly, we love them. Oil is presently paying for the entire war. There is nothing else going on in the world for us to be worried about. The homeland is secure. The influx of non-skilled and non-English speaking migrants is a huge benefit to our first world economy. Health care is great and getting better and less expensive by the day.

Fox News ROCKS.



Oh come on now, you can troll a bit less obvious than that!



Agreeing with William F. Buckley puts you at risk of being called a troll? Wow. The Neocons are working overtime at their/your Kool-Aid factory.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 12:10:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Poodleshooter:

One of these postulates, from the beginning, was that the Iraqi people, whatever their tribal differences, would suspend internal divisions in order to get on with life in a political structure that guaranteed them religious freedom.
......The alternative would be to abandon the postulates. To do that would be to register a kind of philosophical despair.


I abandoned this postulate quite some time ago. I wouldn't say that my opinion is philosophical despair, just a reawakening to the old colonialist view that some cultures are populated by barbarians who are incapable of maintaining a reasonable, peaceable government. Iraqi culture is one of those cultures.
In making the comparison to WWII, I would say that the hardiness and values of the surviving German and Japanese peoples,cleansed of their fascism, were adequate to the task of recreating civilized nations. They aren't crippled by their own culture as Iraqis are.



I agree with you. It is unfortunate, and not "nice" or PC, but there are some people who simply cannot govern themselves or get out of a middle ages mentality, no matter how much schooling they have. It is equally unfortunate for young Americans that some people think that all we have to do is go in, wave a magic wand and , Voila, everyone is ready for a democratic form of government: the American mistake that everyone can or wants to live as we do. Some peoples simply need to have a dictator. No, not pretty, or pleasant, but true. Force is all that works. Can't be helped, and that's the way it is.

I am sorry that liberalism ever took hold in some countries. Sure, it sounds nice, but the world was more peaceful when a British Army was over some of these characters. Maybe in aggregate there was some violence, but it was THERE and not HERE. When the Middle East was under strict control, the kind only a British Officer can impose (say, Kitchener, for example) these people could kill themselves and could not affect others. But, everyone wants to be "nice", so here they are , killing us.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 12:10:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 12:10:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Poodleshooter:
In making the comparison to WWII, I would say that the hardiness and values of the surviving German and Japanese peoples,cleansed of their fascism, were adequate to the task of recreating civilized nations. They aren't crippled by their own culture as Iraqis are.


I'd say that the Japanese and German cultures were pretty sick too, given the horrible atrocities committed by both countries. Perhaps a bigger difference is that in WWII we demonstrated complete ruthlessness, intentionally killing millions of their civilians without remorse. We had great power, as well as the desire to win at any cost. The Germans and Japanese understood that thet their choice was either submission or complete anhialation.

That is clearly not the case now. I'm sure the Arabs find our 'measured responses' and concern with 'collateral damage' laughable. We may be powerful, but we obviously do not have the will to win.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 12:10:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ClayP:
Buckley has the most contrived accent I have ever heard.



Seems normal to me. It's the way I sound, well maybe I'm a bit less pronounced, but it's there.

Link Posted: 2/27/2006 12:18:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
Arab countires perhaps, muslim is to broad a term. ie Turkey is managing very well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By Poodleshooter:
I would say that the hardiness and values of the surviving German and Japanese peoples,cleansed of their fascism, were adequate to the task of recreating civilized nations. They aren't crippled by their own culture as Iraqis Muslims are.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Excellent point.


Note that I did not include "Muslim" in my original post,since Iraq was the pertinent topic. That was a later edited text by someone else.
I wouldn't even say "Arab". Bahrain, Dubai,Kuwait,etc are all Arabic and do quite well as reasonably civilized governments. The rest of the Saudi peninsula is a bit questionable.
Note however that most of these countries have done well by either having practically secular populations, or by keeping their faith and government seperate (Turkey). Most of Iraq has refused to do that. They need their own 'Attaturk' in their government,and he hasn't been forthcoming yet.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 12:20:33 PM EDT

The Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, elucidates on the complaint against Americans. It is not only that the invaders are American, it is that they are "Zionists." It would not be surprising to learn from an anonymously cited American soldier that he can understand why Saddam Hussein was needed to keep the Sunnis and the Shiites from each others' throats.


I agree with this statement. I have been saying this since the first talk of us invading Iraq came around. As much as everyone hated Saddam, he ensured relative stability in the region. He was able to fight with Iran to a stalemate, and the Saudi's and Afghan's were afraid of him. We hated Iran much more than him, which is why when we invaded in 1991 we were facing an army that we had helped to finance up to that point. With Saddam gone, it will take a miracle to fend off the Iranians once we leave. So unfortunately either we are stuck in Iraq, or soon after we leave we will be facing a much more powerful Iran......
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 12:33:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AROptics:
We have actually already won. Iraqis love us and, more importantly, we love them. Oil is presently paying for the entire war. There is nothing else going on in the world for us to be worried about. The homeland is secure. The influx of non-skilled and non-English speaking migrants is a huge benefit to our first world economy. Health care is great and getting better and less expensive by the day.

Fox News ROCKS.



And the latest Commission on Social Security will make recommendations the Congress will carry out and save the day!

Damn, we really need a Tongue In Cheek emoticon.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 12:41:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By imposter:

I'd say that the Japanese and German cultures were pretty sick too, given the horrible atrocities committed by both countries. Perhaps a bigger difference is that in WWII we demonstrated complete ruthlessness, intentionally killing millions of their civilians without remorse. We had great power, as well as the desire to win at any cost. The Germans and Japanese understood that thet their choice was either submission or complete anhialation.

That is clearly not the case now. I'm sure the Arabs find our 'measured responses' and concern with 'collateral damage' laughable. We may be powerful, but we obviously do not have the will to win.


They were evil, but within 5 years of the war, their evil actions and cultural values (such as the genocide and persecution of the Jews) were gone from the bulk of their society,mostly as a result of actions by their own civil government. The thoughts may have remained,but something we did, or something within their culture ended that behavior. Anyway, there was change,which is lacking in Iraq....
Your point about the Arab view of our responses is interesting. Notice that as this war has progressed they have learned to begin manipulating our consciences and morals against us,regardless of whether or not they actually share or practice those values at large in their culture. They hold us to our own standard,regardless of whether or not they share it. I think that's symptomatic of their viewing us as foolish and weak. Ridiculing mercy seems unwise however....
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:08:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2006 2:46:49 PM EDT by JLH3]

Originally Posted By imposter:

Originally Posted By Poodleshooter:
In making the comparison to WWII, I would say that the hardiness and values of the surviving German and Japanese peoples,cleansed of their fascism, were adequate to the task of recreating civilized nations. They aren't crippled by their own culture as Iraqis are.


I'd say that the Japanese and German cultures were pretty sick too, given the horrible atrocities committed by both countries. Perhaps a bigger difference is that in WWII we demonstrated complete ruthlessness, intentionally killing millions of their civilians without remorse. We had great power, as well as the desire to win at any cost. The Germans and Japanese understood that thet their choice was either submission or complete anhialation.

That is clearly not the case now. I'm sure the Arabs find our 'measured responses' and concern with 'collateral damage' laughable. We may be powerful, but we obviously do not have the will to win.



The cultural differences cannot be underestimated. For one thing, neither Japan nor Germany were split among tribal/religious lines the way Iraq is. Plus there is the cultural inclination of both the Germans and Japanese to do what their gov't tells them to do. And their gov'ts surrendered. Iraq never surrendered that I remember. There was no turning over of power to the US/Coalition. Only Japan comes close to the religious aspects, but the Emperor came on the radio and told them he wasn't a god. And the Muslims hold to their racial/religious superiority. Germany and Japan faced the distruction of that belief after the war. One of the problems is that while we may have defeated Saddam and Iraq, most of those people identify themselves with ther clan or Sunni/Shia. And we did not defeat all of them. Plus Saddam was a godless infidel who got what he deserved. Allah still loves them and wants them to kill all the Westerners unless they give up McDonalds and make their women wear sheets.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:40:05 PM EDT
That's why Caesar made those who lost to him march under the yoke: they had to understand fully that they lost.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 10:13:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:

Originally Posted By ClayP:
Buckley has the most contrived accent I have ever heard.



Yeah really, Whats up with that????? He has the most phoney "wasp" accent i've ever heard. He's like Madonna! lol! another diva with a superiority complex.



you guys really have NO clue of Buckley's childhood !
Top Top