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Posted: 2/26/2006 9:30:59 AM EDT
Just announced on FOX News.

Anybody got info?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:31:52 AM EDT
My guess black shooter with SKS.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:34:25 AM EDT
FOX just updated - It was a man with a SHOTGUN. Three victims, one dead.

Also stated that it was a car-jacking the spilled over into the church -OR- it was a domestic, family situation.
The shooter has left the church, apparently.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:34:29 AM EDT
No surprise there. It's an easy target.

After all, nobody would ever think of shooting up a church, right?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:34:43 AM EDT
Great.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:36:06 AM EDT
You can't carry in churches in most states
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:36:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:
You can't carry in churches in most states



This is true.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:38:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:
You can't carry in churches in most states



You can't LEGALLY carry in churches in most states.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:38:38 AM EDT
Just Great News!


Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:40:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:
You can't carry in churches in most states



I beleive in Michigan, it's up to the pastor, preist, etc..
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:40:59 AM EDT
Least it was not an AK or AR.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:41:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hipster:

Originally Posted By david_g17:
You can't carry in churches in most states



You can't LEGALLY carry in churches in most states.



That never stops me. Don't Ask-Don't Show-Don't Tell.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:41:43 AM EDT
a disgruntled worshipper.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:42:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:
You can't carry in churches in most states



Sadly, this is true. Given the popularity of attacks on churches here and abroad, it surprises me that at least some churches don't have someone outside during the services. There are no laws against carrying a gun in a church parking lot.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:43:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By joker581:

Originally Posted By david_g17:
You can't carry in churches in most states



Sadly, this is true. Given the popularity of attacks on churches here and abroad, it surprises me that at least some churches don't have someone outside during the services. There are no laws against carrying a gun in a church parking lot.



give it time.

i believe it will come to that.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:45:34 AM EDT
thats pretty crazy. WTF is up with people going on shooting sprees?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:06:29 AM EDT
I can't find any updates on the web. Apparently it's a run-of-the-mill domestic violence killing, not a shooting spree.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:10:28 AM EDT
Someone please IM me if they find an article as I am collecting "church shooting" articles to pursuade my state Leg to modify CC law to allow carrying in churches.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:14:01 AM EDT
tag

Thankfully it isn't illegal to carry in churches in Oklahoma.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:15:25 AM EDT
I always wear my .45 S&W during Sunday service.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:15:56 AM EDT
We obviously need a law which bans the touching of shotguns on Sundays. If we had thought of that a year ago this terrible situation wouldn't have happened.

I hope they catch the asshole, skin him alive and set him on fire.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:17:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USGI_45:
thats pretty crazy. WTF is up with people going on shooting sprees?



It's those damned guns again. If only they'd ban 'em, once and for all!
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:51:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:53:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:
You can't carry in churches in most states



Not illegal here AFAIK.

I usually skew towards a smaller caliber weapon on my now-infrequent visits to houses of worship. Better than being unarmed.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:54:04 AM EDT
tag
and
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:59:56 AM EDT
There was a domestic dispute/shooting at a church here about 15 years ago. An off duty cop was there with his familiy and shot the shooter in the parking lot.

Crazy.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:04:48 AM EDT
In Texas it is OK for a licensed person to carry in church. My Anglican Priest has never seen me without my concealed handgun. Of course he doesn't know.
Well I was carrying while in church this morning. What was I carrying? A Smith & Wesson model 638 loaded with Federal Niclads 38 sp.+P.
EVERY SUNDAY!!
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:50:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By aerod1:
In Texas it is OK for a licensed person to carry in church. My Anglican Priest has never seen me without my concealed handgun. Of course he doesn't know.
Well I was carrying while in church this morning. What was I carrying? A Smith & Wesson model 638 loaded with Federal Niclads 38 sp.+P.
EVERY SUNDAY!!



+1. Heck, I even play guitar on the worship team with my 1911 IWB...
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:53:52 AM EDT
I seem to remember that in SC there is a "blue law" that REQUIRES everyone to bring a gun to church......in case of Indian attack.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 2:01:29 PM EDT
NOW REPORTING

Domestic dispute. 1 officially dead. 2 wounded.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 2:09:44 PM EDT
Fox did a great job on this one. They displayed a graphic of a big silver wheel gun while talking about a shotgun shooting in Motown...
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 2:18:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Another_Dude:
Fox did a great job on this one. They displayed a graphic of a big silver wheel gun while talking about a shotgun shooting in Motown...


Are you expecting the left-leaning news media to accurately report a gun story?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:00:59 PM EDT
Written news link?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:10:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By aerod1:
In Texas it is OK for a licensed person to carry in church. My Anglican Priest has never seen me without my concealed handgun. Of course he doesn't know.
Well I was carrying while in church this morning. What was I carrying? A Smith & Wesson model 638 loaded with Federal Niclads 38 sp.+P.
EVERY SUNDAY!!



Be careful, though, because churches are often schools as well. I'm not exactly sure how the police or the law treats this.

Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:13:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shop_rat45:

Originally Posted By david_g17:
You can't carry in churches in most states



I beleive in Michigan, it's up to the pastor, preist, etc..



From the Michigan CCW:

"Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding officials permit the carrying on the property"

No Expert
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:18:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 5:21:22 PM EDT by Outsider_10fp]

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:
a disgruntled worshipper.





even though you are a Glock basher, we think alot alike ( even though you DO OWN a few Gs')

Smartass' think alike.

Could you imagine what it would have been like if that was an ARFCOM singles meeting in that church?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:24:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 5:27:35 PM EDT by Planerench]
While I don't have any firm data, I would speculate that my particular church has one of the higher ratios of armed to unarmed congregations. God help someone who tries crap during one of our services. My shooting mentor was top tier practical shooter in the 70s and early 80s and sits in the balcony, calmly waiting. Our head usher is usually armed. We have a volunteer security force that keeps an eye on the nursery and parking lots. The head of the security force is retired marines tank officer. Legal to carry in church here.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:25:06 PM EDT
Big page o' links

This is bad but hopefully will show that we need to be able to protect ourselves in church.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 8:07:13 PM EDT
bad guy is now dead. He shot himself.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:35:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jblachly:
Someone please IM me if they find an article as I am collecting "church shooting" articles to pursuade my state Leg to modify CC law to allow carrying in churches.



I link to a few of them in my post here:

Texas Gunman Kills 4 in Church, Then Self
Police: Gunman kills 7 at church meeting
Three die in church shooting
CHURCH SHOOTING
'Trained terrorists' behind Pakistan church slayings

Another editorial: That church shooting by Joseph Farah
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:36:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ChiefPilot:

Originally Posted By aerod1:
In Texas it is OK for a licensed person to carry in church. My Anglican Priest has never seen me without my concealed handgun. Of course he doesn't know.
Well I was carrying while in church this morning. What was I carrying? A Smith & Wesson model 638 loaded with Federal Niclads 38 sp.+P.
EVERY SUNDAY!!



+1. Heck, I even play guitar on the worship team with my 1911 IWB...



+1 Hah, I usually have my S&W 642 in my pocket while i'm jamming on the bass... :)
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 1:13:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jblachly:
Written news link?



'Where can you be safe?'
Fatal Detroit church shooting may have been revenge

Oralander Brand Williams, Dorothy Bourdet and David G. Grant / The Detroit News
Monday, February 27, 2006

DETROIT -- Gunshots pierced a calm Sunday morning church service at Zion Hope Missionary Baptist Church on the city's east side as a one-man crime spree left two people dead, including the 22-year-old gunman, and two others wounded.

At the church, a woman was killed and a 9-year-old girl was injured; later, a man was critically injured trying to protect his wife during the 19-year-old gunman's getaway.

A witness said Kevin Lorenzo Collins was at the church Sunday searching for his 19-year-old ex-girlfriend, Jamika Javette Williams, while parishioners were filing in for the 11 a.m. service.

Connie Minter, Williams' aunt, said Collins was sitting in the church waiting for Williams when her mother, Rosetta Williams, and others entered the church's balcony.

"I thought we were safe because Jamika wasn't with us," Minter said.

But they weren't.

When Collins saw Jamika Williams' mother, Minter says he demanded to know where her daughter was.

Rosetta Williams refused to tell him and he vowed to kill her daughter.

That's when, Minter says, some parishioners tried to defuse the situation. "People tried to get him to calm down … , but he cussed out every church member that came in contact with him," Minter said.

While Collins struggled with parishioners in the church, Minter says he pulled out a sawed-off, 12-gauge shotgun from his coat and began firing as the service got under way.

Minter says blasts from the shotgun killed her sister, Rosetta Williams.

The wounded 9-year-old girl was sitting next to Rosetta Williams. The girl is Rosetta Williams' godchild, said Homicide Lt. John Morell. The girl, who was shot in the hand, was listed in good condition at Children's Hospital on Sunday.

About 200 people were inside the church, at Van Dyke and Willard, when the shooting erupted.

Minter believes Collins, a security guard, wanted revenge on Jamika Williams and her family because she refused to marry him. She said Collins and Jamika Williams had a relationship for two years and have a 10-month-old daughter.

Minter said Jamika Williams had obtained a personal protection order to keep Collins away from her, but he had attacked Jamika three weeks ago in the church. Police reports confirm that but do not say why officers had not arrested Collins for violating the order.

"He choked her, slapped her and punched her with a closed fist before people were able to get him out of there," Minter said.

"If you can do something like this in a church, you're pure evil."

When the shooting started, parishioners ducked for cover under pews. Others fled the building.

The shooting stunned church members like 38-year-old Phyllis Williams, who arrived late for church only to see it surrounded by police cars with sirens wailing.

"If you can't be safe in the Lord's house, where can you be safe?" Williams said. "You have to have some nerve to come inside the church and to shoot somebody, to even bring a gun in the place of God. What kind of devil is that?"

Police say after the shooting at the church, Collins fled south about three blocks and then tried to carjack 54-year-old Victoria Davis as she sat in a black Thunderbird parked in front of her sister's home on Norvell Court.

When her husband, Alarie Davis, 55, tried to come to her rescue, police say Collins shot him in the chest and arm. He was listed in critical condition at Detroit Receiving Hospital on Sunday evening.

Karen Reeves was waiting for her sister and brother-in-law to arrive when she heard the shots. Reeves said she thought the shots were coming from a house down the street until she heard her brother-in-law's voice begging for help.

"Next thing we know, we hear three shots and I heard my brother-in-law say, 'I'm shot, help me,' " Reeves said.

She ran outside to find him lying on the house steps, bleeding.

Police say Collins then ran off. Police went to his home in the 7900 block of St. Paul shortly after 4 p.m., and as officers went in the front door looking for him, he ran out the back with his 12-gauge shotgun. He pointed the gun at police, who told him to drop it.

When he failed to drop the gun, officers shot at him twice but missed. Collins turned the gun to his chest and pulled the trigger, police said.

Neighbor Jeffrey Colby, 41, who lives down the street on St. Paul, heard sirens around 4:20 p.m.

He asked an officer what was going on and was told to get back into his house.

"It's shocking and very upsetting," Colby said.

Despite the rampage inside the church Sunday, services were not canceled. Shortly after the shooting, some church members gathered outside to pray.

"They came to worship; they continued to worship even after the incident occurred inside," said Second Deputy Police Chief James Tate.

In a press statement given outside his church Sunday, the Rev. Curtis G. Grant, pastor of Zion Hope for eight years, expressed shock and bewilderment.

"The sanctity of our sanctuary has been disturbed," Grant said. "What would make a person so angry and so hurt that he would want to hurt somebody in the house of the Lord?"

The Rev. Edgar Vann, the pastor of Second Ebenezer Baptist Church in Detroit, rushed over to Zion Hope shortly after he got a call about the shooting to give moral support to Grant, whom he called his "spiritual son."

He called the shooting a tragic situation and a sign of the times.

Zion Hope had guards inside and outside the church, but the shooter still slipped in.

"All churches need security," said Vann, the former president of the Detroit Council of Baptist Ministers.

Minter called for prayers to heal the wounds. "That's the only way we will get through. There's no understanding for this."

Detroit News Staff Writer Dorothy Bourdet contributed to this report. You can reach Oralandar Brand-Williams at (313) 222-2027 or bwilliams@detnews.com.


www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060227/METRO/602270343
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 1:45:58 AM EDT

"If you can't be safe in the Lord's house, where can you be safe?" Williams said. "You have to have some nerve to come inside the church and to shoot somebody, to even bring a gun in the place of God. What kind of devil is that?"



OK, what did you do to help the situation?
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 1:48:55 AM EDT
Tag, so I can dig those links up next year when WI tries to pass CCW again......the carry in church argument foo was strong with the libs.....
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 4:06:46 AM EDT
Shootings at churches are, sadly, not all that uncommon. Churches are also frequently targets of robbery because they usually have expensive PA equipment and large ammounts of cash from the offering plates.

Sane people view a church as a holy place where you should behave.

Unfortunately most of the people in this world aren't sane. Be it the dumbass who is cutting through our church parking lot so he can commit adultery with the woman who lives on a property adjacent to the church, or some dumbass who gets a gun so he can make an easy score, or the scumsucking scam artists who show up with a hard luck story and dupe good people into giving thousands of dollars, churches have giant bullseyes on them that the worst elements of society seem to see.

Virginia's statute says:

If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

What "good and sufficient reason" means nobody in the Commonwealth seems to know.

I am armed at EVERY service, with at least one handgun, and usually two. (A primary and a backup) I am on the finance comittee, meaning I handle the money and buisness affairs of the church. I frequently make large deposits of money. I also provide security, as I sit at the very back of the church where I can see who comes in.

Most people cannot fathom why this is necessary. Those people have obviously never been in the middle of a church service when bad guys decided to rob the place, or had armed robberies occour on the front steps of the church, or had a drunk who accused the church of "stealing" his family (because his now saved wife won't drink with him anymore...) try to stab people, or had a confessed child molester out on bail come into the church with a baseball bat to kill the pastor who turned him in to the cops, or even had some demon posessed man walk in the church with a revolver and try to gun down the pastor in the middle of a Wed. night Bible class.

I have seen those things happen except the last incident, which happened to a pastor we know.

Churches are, have been, and will always be in danger of being victimized by the evil elements in society. That's why Jesus said:

35 And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?
So they said, “Nothing.”
36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. "

Luke 22
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 4:51:55 AM EDT
According to Detroit Radio this morning......

IN the church.
Woman killed was 38 y.o. mother of 19 y.o. girlfriend to the shooter.
Shooter was the 24 y.o boyfriend and father to the daughter's 10 month old.
The girl sitting next to the mother(grandmother) was god-daughter and was wounded in the hand by buckshot.
Man fled church and critically wounded a man outside protecting his wife from being carjacked by the fleeing shooter.

Shooter, was later confronted by police about a mile from the church (several hours later) and shot himself to death.

2 dead, including shooter, 1 critically wounded, 1 minorly wounded.


No Expert
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 5:08:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:
You can't carry in churches in most states



I can and do in KY.
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