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Posted: 2/26/2006 8:28:56 AM EDT
Sine this thread http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=440806 named every car manufactured today as "gay"... I wanted to know what people think about evironmental cars.

For the purposes of the discussion this includes cars with a high miles per gallon rating, hybrids(electric/gas), cars equipped to take the ethanol85 fuel (only 15% gas), fully electric cars... etc.

I'm looking into these options for my next vehicle purchase. I don't like to cower at the foot of the gas companies who can legally choose to charge us whatever they want and we are stuck with it, because we don't have other options.

In England they pay about $4 a gallon

More and more countries are refusing to sell gas to us as a threat so that we agree to their terms. They saw what happenned and are trying to take advantage of our weaknesses.

Gay factors aside, what do you guys think about environmental cars?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 8:32:44 AM EDT
Environmental Cars?

They reek of Mindless Liberal, Green-Peace, Birkenstock wearing, Hairy Armpitted Women, Fags, amd anyone else that spends most of their time looking like Al Franken and Gina Gerafallo.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 8:41:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 8:44:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SIG-24-7:
Environmental Cars?

They reek of Mindless Liberal, Green-Peace, Birkenstock wearing, Hairy Armpitted Women, Fags, amd anyone else that spends most of their time looking like Al Franken and Gina Gerafallo.



So, you would rather pay $4 a gallon?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 8:50:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 8:51:14 AM EDT by bastiat]

Originally Posted By gunchyck:

Originally Posted By SIG-24-7:
Environmental Cars?

They reek of Mindless Liberal, Green-Peace, Birkenstock wearing, Hairy Armpitted Women, Fags, amd anyone else that spends most of their time looking like Al Franken and Gina Gerafallo.



So, you would rather pay $4 a gallon?



Would you rather pay $4000-5000 over the sticker cost of a regular car and hope that the batteries on your hybrid last long enough that you eventually break even before having to replace them?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 8:57:46 AM EDT
(From an earlier reply I wrote, saved because I knew this topic would come up again)

Just to keep things honest, consider my 2000 Dodge Neon.

Neon: Purchased new for $14,000 (bone stock, no options).
Prius: $21,000 (bone stock, no options, MSRP)

Neon: No major problems in 160,000 miles. Most I've spent in one month was $400 last month for brakes, timing belt, serpentine belt, timing belt tensioner, water pump, and serpentine belt tensioner. Other items in 6 years include brakes, tires, oil/filter, battery and thermostat. Let's overestimate (big time) and use $2000 as a 6 year maintenance cost.
Prius: Assume no maintanence whatsoever.

Neon: Average EPA city/hwy 32mpg.
Prius: Average EPA city/hwy 55mpg.

Rounded up, my average mileage over 6 years was 27,000 miles a year.
Neon: 27,000 / 32 = 843.75 gallons of gas required.
Prius: 27,000 / 55 = 490.91 gallons of gas required.

Assume a ridiculous gas price of $3.00 a gallon.

Neon: $2,531.25 a year, $15,187.50 over 6 years.
Prius: $1772.73 a year. $10,636.38 over 6 years.

So to calculate cost, let's use:
Purchase Price + Maintanence + Six Years of Gas:
Neon: $14,000 + $2,000 + $15,187.50 = $31,187.50
Prius: $21,000 + $0 + $10,636 = $31,636
-----


I want you all to look at that carefully. Consider how ridiculous some of that was. I overestimated my maintenance/repair costs. I assumed the Prius would need NONE. Not even tires or brakes. I used a ridiculous figure of $3.00 a gallon for gas. With my heavy driving (by anyone's standard at 27,000 miles a year) it would take about 6 years to break even, and that's assuming the Prius needs nothing - I repeat NOTHING done to it in that time.

At $3.00 a gallon, you're not even saving $1,000 a year in gas purchasing a hybrid in my scenario.

Buy whatever car you want, but do it because you just plain like the car. Don't kid yourself about saving tons of money.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 8:58:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By gunchyck:

Originally Posted By SIG-24-7:
Environmental Cars?

They reek of Mindless Liberal, Green-Peace, Birkenstock wearing, Hairy Armpitted Women, Fags, amd anyone else that spends most of their time looking like Al Franken and Gina Gerafallo.



So, you would rather pay $4 a gallon?



Would you rather pay $4000-5000 over the sticker cost of a regular car and hope that the batteries on your hybrid last long enough that you eventually break even before having to replace them?



I don't know what cars you are talking about in particular... but, for example the ethanol85 cars are normal cars. Any part that comes into contact with gas has been modified for the corrosive properties of the "environmental gas", but the rest of it is just a normal car/truck/etc.

And to answer your question, would I pay $1500 more for that so that the regular gas prices can't butt-fuck me? yes.

Now answer my question. Would you rather pay $4+ a gallon? Or do you think it will never go there?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 8:58:38 AM EDT
Whatever floats your boat... but my boat runs on 87 Octane, weighs 4500lbs and is nearly 19 feet long. Whether or not 23mpg is "environmental", I don't give a damn... my last car was "environmental". I liked it, then I quit delivering pizzas and sold it for a car that weighed twice as much, had twice the room, twice the comfort, and ten times the options with half the headaches.

Besides... hugging trees is for hippies.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:00:58 AM EDT
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm happier getting 12.1 mpg in my Ram than I EVER would be getting 40-plus mpg in one of those retarded jelly-bean cars.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:03:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 9:04:04 AM EDT by SIG-24-7]

Originally Posted By gunchyck:

Originally Posted By SIG-24-7:
Environmental Cars?

They reek of Mindless Liberal, Green-Peace, Birkenstock wearing, Hairy Armpitted Women, Fags, amd anyone else that spends most of their time looking like Al Franken and Gina Gerafallo.



So, you would rather pay $4 a gallon?



Regardless what anyone drives, the price of gasoline will continue to rise. Gasoline was around .20 cents a gallon in the 1960s, and all cars were guzzlers. Everyone hopped on the Fuel Economy Bandwagon in the 70s and guess what? Gasoline is hovering around $2.80 a gallon today - When the MPG is the best it has ever been since the creation of cars.

Besides, those battery/plug-in type cars won't pull my 28 foot RV. But my 2003 Duramax will.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:12:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 9:41:30 AM EDT by SubnetMask]

Originally Posted By SIG-24-7:
Regardless what anyone drives, the price of gasoline will continue to rise. Gasoline was around .20 cents a gallon in the 1960s, and all cars were guzzlers. Everyone hopped on the Fuel Economy Bandwagon in the 70s and guess what? Gasoline is hovering around $2.80 a gallon today - When the MPG is the best it has ever been since the creation of cars.



A 60 cent gallon of gas in 1974 is equivalent to about $2.38 today. Ain't inflation a bitch?

Adjusting for inflation, we're paying about the same for gas now as we did in the 70's. People earn more nowdays, and the dollar is worth less as a result. The problem with current gas prices, is that the memory of the lowest inflation adjusted gas prices in history are still fresh in our memories.

Being that we're paying about as much for gas now as we did in the 70's, we should be thankful that we're doing it with cars that get far superior mileage. Honestly, I don't see what the bitching is about.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:17:20 AM EDT
You will find a lot of ignorant people on this board when it comes to flexible fuel vehicles. For example did you know you can get an E85 GMC Yukon? So much for "jelly bean cars". Here is a list of the big 3 E85 vehicles. For a complete list of all E85 vehicles go to www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php

2006

4.7L Dodge Durango*
4.7L Dodge Ram Pickup 1500 Series*
2.7L Dodge Stratus Sedan*
2.7L Chrysler Sebring Sedan*
3.3L Caravan & Grand Caravan SE*

2004 - 2005

4.7L Dodge Ram Pickup 1500 Series
2.7L Dodge Stratus Sedan
2.7L Chrysler Sebring Sedan

2006

3.0L Ford Taurus sedan and wagon (2-valve)*

4.6L Ford Crown Victoria (2-valve, excluding taxi and police units)

5.4L Ford F-150 (3-valve. Available in December 2005)

4.6L Lincoln Town Car (2-valve)


2004 - 2005

4.0L Explorer Sport Trac

4.0L Explorer (4-door)

3.0L Taurus sedan and wagon (2-valve)

2007

5.3L V-8 engine Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra half-ton pickups 2WD & 4WD

5.3L Vortec-engine Avalanche, Suburban, Tahoe, Yukon & Yukon XL

3.5L Chevy Impala (LS, 1LT & 2LT)

3.5L Chevy Monte Carlo (LS and LT models only)

5.3L V8 engine Chevy Express and GMC Savana 1500 2WD & 4WD

3.9L V6 engine Chevy Uplander

2006

3.5L Chevy Impala (LS, 1LT & 2LT)

3.5L Chevy Monte Carlo (LS and LT models only)

2005 - 2006

5.3L Vortec-engine Avalanche

5.3L Vortec-engine Police Package Tahoe*

2003 - 2006

5.3L V-8 engine Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra half-ton pickups 2WD & 4WD

5.3L Vortec-engine Suburban, Tahoe, Yukon and Yukon XLs

Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:19:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By gunchyck:

Originally Posted By SIG-24-7:
Environmental Cars?

They reek of Mindless Liberal, Green-Peace, Birkenstock wearing, Hairy Armpitted Women, Fags, amd anyone else that spends most of their time looking like Al Franken and Gina Gerafallo.



So, you would rather pay $4 a gallon?



Would you rather pay $4000-5000 over the sticker cost of a regular car and hope that the batteries on your hybrid last long enough that you eventually break even before having to replace them?



That's right, and the dealers don't discount the hybrids, while they heavily discount gas cars, making the difference you refer to even greater. Also, don't forget that not all hybrids "remain" hybrids in warm climates. Some, such as the Prius, do indeed have electric A/C compressors. However, others need to run the gas engine in order to have A/C. Do you want to be in Florida or Texas in July without A/C? So, the car becomes a regular gas powered vehicle, with just a lot more complication.

And, as SIG mentioned, the price of gas keeps going up anyway. Even those involved in the commodities business will say that there's no solid reason for the price to be as high as it is; the price is held high by speculation - read that "manipulators." If "they", whether "they" are the oil corporations, Bilderbergers, or George Soros want to gouge you for more gas, you'll just pay, you're just a customer. They'll get away with it, too, and have support, because the gov. gets more, even the environmentalist cause, some of whom want artificially to raise prices to "reduce demand." Look at the price of diesel fuel. Sure, they can make an excuse, which I think is contrived, but will go along with it for the moment, that the hurricane damaged facilities produced diesel, and the lowered production means lower supply and higher price. OK, then please explain how, BEFORE, the hurricane, diesel was priced at or above premium, when a few years ago it was at the price of regular or below. Some of the true believers will answer with the knee-jerk "supply and demand." OK, but diesel is less refined, therefore less of a problem to produce, so meeting demand is easier. Maybe the increasing number of diesel vehicles, getting better mileage has a little to do with it. "They" (yes, "them" again) want so and so much out of you, as measured by vehicle miles. Some will cry "tin foil time" OK, but the reality is in front of you to see. BTW, if a diesel vehicle replaces a gas vehicle, how then does it increase petroleum demand over the normal increase of cars on the road?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:24:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 9:24:43 AM EDT by MlTCHELL]

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
You will find a lot of ignorant people on this board when it comes to flexible fuel vehicles. For example did you know you can get an E85 GMC Yukon? So much for "jelly bean cars". Here is a list of the big 3 E85 vehicles. For a complete list of all E85 vehicles go to www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php


E85 is bullshit. If it weren't for the government fucking with capitalisim, it wouldn't be used at all, period.

They have to mandate it's usage for it to become a reasonable choice, at this point, it's nothing but a GM advertising gimmick and a talking point for Republicans to shut up the tree huggers for five minutes.

Don't get me wrong. I love the idea of E85, but it's bullshit right now. It is inefficient (the more ethonol in your fuel, the lower your MPG), and it's not cost effective at this point... just one reason why it costs so much more for gas in IL, CA, or anywhere else they mandate tree-hugger gas.

*editted to trim down the long quote
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:27:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gunchyck:
Sine this thread http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=440806 named every car manufactured today as "gay"... I wanted to know what people think about evironmental cars.

For the purposes of the discussion this includes cars with a high miles per gallon rating, hybrids(electric/gas), cars equipped to take the ethanol85 fuel (only 15% gas), fully electric cars... etc.

I'm looking into these options for my next vehicle purchase. I don't like to cower at the foot of the gas companies who can legally choose to charge us whatever they want and we are stuck with it, because we don't have other options.

In England they pay about $4 a gallon

More and more countries are refusing to sell gas to us as a threat so that we agree to their terms. They saw what happenned and are trying to take advantage of our weaknesses.

Gay factors aside, what do you guys think about environmental cars?



I think that is the point of a freemarket.

Just as in that same market, you can choose to purchase a vehicle that does not require gas, or require as much gas to opertate.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:18:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yossarian:

Originally Posted By gunchyck:
Sine this thread http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=440806 named every car manufactured today as "gay"... I wanted to know what people think about evironmental cars.

For the purposes of the discussion this includes cars with a high miles per gallon rating, hybrids(electric/gas), cars equipped to take the ethanol85 fuel (only 15% gas), fully electric cars... etc.

I'm looking into these options for my next vehicle purchase. I don't like to cower at the foot of the gas companies who can legally choose to charge us whatever they want and we are stuck with it, because we don't have other options.

In England they pay about $4 a gallon

More and more countries are refusing to sell gas to us as a threat so that we agree to their terms. They saw what happenned and are trying to take advantage of our weaknesses.

Gay factors aside, what do you guys think about environmental cars?



I think that is the point of a freemarket.

Just as in that same market, you can choose to purchase a vehicle that does not require gas, or require as much gas to opertate.



Yes, that is the point of a free market, I'm not disputing that. The gas companies could all change their prices tomorrow to $10 a gallon and we would have to pay it.

Who can purchase a vehicle that does not require gas? Are you talking about a bike? I can't get to work in a bike unless I want an extra two hour commute each way per day.


For those of you that are stating "of course gas goes up, it's inflation.." Last summer gas went up 75 cents to $1+ a gallon. The gas companies saw the biggest profits they had ever seen in their histories.

THAT was not "just inflation". It can be argued that it WAS free enterprise. I was on threads in this forum making that very arguement when most of you were cussing out the companies for price gouging. Funny how some flip flop so easily.

Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:23:46 AM EDT
I would rather pay a little more for gasoline/fuel when I need it, than sit in long lines at gas stations hoping to get a tankfull at cheaper prices.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:36:13 AM EDT
Up until a couple of years ago, my wife and I had a '93 Honda Civic coupe. It got 34mpg city and 42 hwy.

1993.

Hybrids are shitty gimmicks. If some car companies want to blow hundreds of millions on batteries, that's fine, but when we had standard gasoline engines that were getting 30, 40+ mpg ten, twenty years ago, and the average hybrid is only five or ten mpg better now, I say somebody isn't paying attention.

That post about the Neon and the Prius should be posted over and over. If you were to insert a comparable "import" car in the place of the POS Neon, the hybrids look even more stupid.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:40:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SIG-24-7:
I would rather pay a little more for gasoline/fuel when I need it, than sit in long lines at gas stations hoping to get a tankfull at cheaper prices.



That's fair, but I think it would depend on how much cheaper the price was. Cost vs. Benefit. Right now ethanol85 is only at a select number of gas stations, it's the same price as regular, and it DOES get slightly less miles per gallon. It wouldn't be cost effective right now. Ethanol85 engines can also take regular gas. They are interchangible in their systems, but you have the later OPTION of getting ethanol85 if the gas companies decide to gouge us again.

I don't know, I'm just thinking about it.

It seems like everyone on here thinks that hybrids are a waste of money. I don't know much about them.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:47:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MlTCHELL:

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
You will find a lot of ignorant people on this board when it comes to flexible fuel vehicles. For example did you know you can get an E85 GMC Yukon? So much for "jelly bean cars". Here is a list of the big 3 E85 vehicles. For a complete list of all E85 vehicles go to www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php


E85 is bullshit. If it weren't for the government fucking with capitalisim, it wouldn't be used at all, period.

They have to mandate it's usage for it to become a reasonable choice, at this point, it's nothing but a GM advertising gimmick and a talking point for Republicans to shut up the tree huggers for five minutes.

Don't get me wrong. I love the idea of E85, but it's bullshit right now. It is inefficient (the more ethonol in your fuel, the lower your MPG), and it's not cost effective at this point... just one reason why it costs so much more for gas in IL, CA, or anywhere else they mandate tree-hugger gas.

*editted to trim down the long quote



If it's bullshit and has to be mandated then why is it taking off like wildfire in Illinois, which is where I'm from? As far as I know gas stations are being forced to stock E85 gas but more and more are. While your right it is less efficient than standard gasoline it is also cheaper than standard gasoline so the cost average out. Since the cost to the end user comes out the same the question is do you want to support American farmers or foreign oil? I'm not sure what your argument is about IL and CA gas costing more is in relation to ethanol. Ethanol actually makes the gas cheaper. Both IL and CA have higher gas tax and require specially formulated gas for cleaner air and that is why they are expensive. Go to pretty much every gas station and you will the standard gas contains 10% ethanol just like IL and CA does. Only a select few gas stations still off 100% gas with no ethanol.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:52:51 AM EDT
What about an all electric drive car powered by a gas turbine running on vegtable oil or oil from leftover chicken rendering? No drive train, no batteries. It be like the disele-electric locomotives.

Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:10:17 AM EDT


Hybrids trade one kind of polution for another (emissions vs disposal of the batteries) however e85 looks very promising.
I dont see how anyone can bitch about this. Its a net gain for almost everyone.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:15:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By MlTCHELL:

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
You will find a lot of ignorant people on this board when it comes to flexible fuel vehicles. For example did you know you can get an E85 GMC Yukon? So much for "jelly bean cars". Here is a list of the big 3 E85 vehicles. For a complete list of all E85 vehicles go to www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php


E85 is bullshit. If it weren't for the government fucking with capitalisim, it wouldn't be used at all, period.

They have to mandate it's usage for it to become a reasonable choice, at this point, it's nothing but a GM advertising gimmick and a talking point for Republicans to shut up the tree huggers for five minutes.

Don't get me wrong. I love the idea of E85, but it's bullshit right now. It is inefficient (the more ethonol in your fuel, the lower your MPG), and it's not cost effective at this point... just one reason why it costs so much more for gas in IL, CA, or anywhere else they mandate tree-hugger gas.

*editted to trim down the long quote



If it's bullshit and has to be mandated then why is it taking off like wildfire in Illinois, which is where I'm from? As far as I know gas stations are being forced to stock E85 gas but more and more are. While your right it is less efficient than standard gasoline it is also cheaper than standard gasoline so the cost average out. Since the cost to the end user comes out the same the question is do you want to support American farmers or foreign oil? I'm not sure what your argument is about IL and CA gas costing more is in relation to ethanol. Ethanol actually makes the gas cheaper. Both IL and CA have higher gas tax and require specially formulated gas for cleaner air and that is why they are expensive. Go to pretty much every gas station and you will the standard gas contains 10% ethanol just like IL and CA does. Only a select few gas stations still off 100% gas with no ethanol.



It has to be mandated and subsidized because left to its own devices, the market would not use it.

The EPA recently released information that confirmed ethanol blended gasoline pollutes more than regular gas.

And the lundberg report had a piece that said because of the new mandate for ethanol use (thanks again, GWB!), ethanol prices have spiked, thus causing the overal price of gas to go up (for blended).

Ethanol is shit.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:23:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 11:29:26 AM EDT by gunchyck]

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By MlTCHELL:

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
You will find a lot of ignorant people on this board when it comes to flexible fuel vehicles. For example did you know you can get an E85 GMC Yukon? So much for "jelly bean cars". Here is a list of the big 3 E85 vehicles. For a complete list of all E85 vehicles go to www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php


E85 is bullshit. If it weren't for the government fucking with capitalisim, it wouldn't be used at all, period.

They have to mandate it's usage for it to become a reasonable choice, at this point, it's nothing but a GM advertising gimmick and a talking point for Republicans to shut up the tree huggers for five minutes.

Don't get me wrong. I love the idea of E85, but it's bullshit right now. It is inefficient (the more ethonol in your fuel, the lower your MPG), and it's not cost effective at this point... just one reason why it costs so much more for gas in IL, CA, or anywhere else they mandate tree-hugger gas.

*editted to trim down the long quote



If it's bullshit and has to be mandated then why is it taking off like wildfire in Illinois, which is where I'm from? As far as I know gas stations are being forced to stock E85 gas but more and more are. While your right it is less efficient than standard gasoline it is also cheaper than standard gasoline so the cost average out. Since the cost to the end user comes out the same the question is do you want to support American farmers or foreign oil? I'm not sure what your argument is about IL and CA gas costing more is in relation to ethanol. Ethanol actually makes the gas cheaper. Both IL and CA have higher gas tax and require specially formulated gas for cleaner air and that is why they are expensive. Go to pretty much every gas station and you will the standard gas contains 10% ethanol just like IL and CA does. Only a select few gas stations still off 100% gas with no ethanol.



It has to be mandated and subsidized because left to its own devices, the market would not use it.

The EPA recently released information that confirmed ethanol blended gasoline pollutes more than regular gas.And the lundberg report had a piece that said because of the new mandate for ethanol use (thanks again, GWB!), ethanol prices have spiked, thus causing the overal price of gas to go up (for blended).

Ethanol is shit.



Really? Do you have a source for that? Not attacking, it's just that I've heard the opposite and would be interested in the answer.

ETA I'm doing searches, but nothing against Ethanol85 is coming up
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:38:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:42:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 50cal:
Why do you think the oil companies really jacked prices up? They are bringing out the ethanol gas, they needed to make their profits before the new stuff came on the market.
Sounds kind of tinfoil beanie-ish. But with such a short period between the high prices of just a few months ago and now announcing the "yellow fuel", it makes you wonder.

The ethanol based fuels will be the wave of the future. No need for the 0-60 5 second cars anymore.



The "yellow fuel" has been around for a couple of years (well before last Summer).
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:43:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gunchyck:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By MlTCHELL:

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
You will find a lot of ignorant people on this board when it comes to flexible fuel vehicles. For example did you know you can get an E85 GMC Yukon? So much for "jelly bean cars". Here is a list of the big 3 E85 vehicles. For a complete list of all E85 vehicles go to www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php


E85 is bullshit. If it weren't for the government fucking with capitalisim, it wouldn't be used at all, period.

They have to mandate it's usage for it to become a reasonable choice, at this point, it's nothing but a GM advertising gimmick and a talking point for Republicans to shut up the tree huggers for five minutes.

Don't get me wrong. I love the idea of E85, but it's bullshit right now. It is inefficient (the more ethonol in your fuel, the lower your MPG), and it's not cost effective at this point... just one reason why it costs so much more for gas in IL, CA, or anywhere else they mandate tree-hugger gas.

*editted to trim down the long quote



If it's bullshit and has to be mandated then why is it taking off like wildfire in Illinois, which is where I'm from? As far as I know gas stations are being forced to stock E85 gas but more and more are. While your right it is less efficient than standard gasoline it is also cheaper than standard gasoline so the cost average out. Since the cost to the end user comes out the same the question is do you want to support American farmers or foreign oil? I'm not sure what your argument is about IL and CA gas costing more is in relation to ethanol. Ethanol actually makes the gas cheaper. Both IL and CA have higher gas tax and require specially formulated gas for cleaner air and that is why they are expensive. Go to pretty much every gas station and you will the standard gas contains 10% ethanol just like IL and CA does. Only a select few gas stations still off 100% gas with no ethanol.



It has to be mandated and subsidized because left to its own devices, the market would not use it.

The EPA recently released information that confirmed ethanol blended gasoline pollutes more than regular gas.And the lundberg report had a piece that said because of the new mandate for ethanol use (thanks again, GWB!), ethanol prices have spiked, thus causing the overal price of gas to go up (for blended).

Ethanol is shit.



Really? Do you have a source for that? Not attacking, it's just that I've heard the opposite and would be interested in the answer.

ETA I'm doing searches, but nothing against Ethanol85 is coming up



Just posted this as its own thread:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=440979

And I've got a bunch more links showing how bad ethanol is (But some here refuse to admit it).
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:52:02 AM EDT
just wait for hydrogen fuel cell tech to take off.

Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:54:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cyrax777:
just wait for hydrogen fuel cell tech to take off.




and the hydgrogen has to come from somewhere.

Right now it takes more energy to produce the hydrogen than you get out of it.

The only place it's taking off is in a place like iceland- a very small population where they have a cheap, abundant energy source to make the hydrogen.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:59:05 AM EDT
I'd rather have a small car rather than a hybrid. As posted in the "gay" car thread, my sister, then my dad owned a 1990 Ford Festiva. Bought it for $1,500, bone stock, no A/C, manual windows/locks, etc.

That little car had a 64 hp engine, a 5 speed transmission, and had weighed 1500 pounds or so. That sucker was good on gas(about 40-45 mpg, which could probably be real-world Prius mileage) and very quick for a car its size.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 12:39:22 PM EDT
Well one advantage of E85 is the high Octane rating..... They should stuff a turbo on cars that Take E85 to counterbalane the lower preformace of using the fuel.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 1:07:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OregonShooter:
Well one advantage of E85 is the high Octane rating..... They should stuff a turbo on cars that Take E85 to counterbalane the lower preformace of using the fuel.


It is? I always assumed the "E" was for ethanol and the "85" part was for 85 Octane?

My turbo car only runs on leaded race gas
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 1:10:14 PM EDT
E is for ethanol and 85 is the percentage of ethanol (85%E & 15% gas)

E85 has an octane rating of 105-110
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 1:17:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ShortyForty:
Hybrids trade one kind of polution for another (emissions vs disposal of the batteries) however e85 looks very promising.
I dont see how anyone can bitch about this. Its a net gain for almost everyone.


+1 all the way around.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 1:17:39 PM EDT
Why are afforable turbodiesel cars not mentioned here?

VW Golf TDI, VW Jetta TDI, VW Passat TDI. All great cars that get terrific mileage (39/45 for the Golf and Jetta), amazing acceleration, civlized NVH, do not look or feel like penalty boxes, and do not penalize you with the weight, cost, and trade-in nightmare of mega-expensive batteries.

Hybrids will have the wind knocked out of their sales when the fleet comes to the point where battery replacement becomes necessary. Watch resale values flush right down the shitter then. A turbodiesel will be barely broken in by then, and with every passing year additional combusion control technology and biofuels will continue to make them even cleaner.

I cannot wait for the first turbo diesel 1/2 ton pickup or SUV. I will be all over it. My bet is DiamlerChrysler will be first. Already drove the Jeep Liberty CRD (Common Rail Diesel) and came away impressed
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 1:22:00 PM EDT
Yes, small diesels are an option, but with the EPA emissions regs, that option will be getting very expensive soon. You think hybrids add $$$ to a car?

Heheheh. Diesels are one year away from being out-o-sight (2007 emissions regs coming into effect).
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 2:50:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By gunchyck:

Originally Posted By bastiat:
The EPA recently released information that confirmed ethanol blended gasoline pollutes more than regular gas.And the lundberg report had a piece that said because of the new mandate for ethanol use (thanks again, GWB!), ethanol prices have spiked, thus causing the overal price of gas to go up (for blended).

Ethanol is shit.



Really? Do you have a source for that? Not attacking, it's just that I've heard the opposite and would be interested in the answer.

ETA I'm doing searches, but nothing against Ethanol85 is coming up



Just posted this as its own thread:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=440979

And I've got a bunch more links showing how bad ethanol is (But some here refuse to admit it).



Ok, from that article, your arguement is bullshit. Forget that the source is a ultra-hippy "newspaper" that wants to ban cars altogether. The report is about the ethanol blends in regular gasolines and how it permeates through the engine parts, tubes, gaskets etc... and causes more pollution than regular gasoline THROUGH THE PERMEATION.

It has NOTHING to do with E85. those gases are 10% ethanol. E85 is 85% ethanol. Those run in regular engines. E85 cars have to have a specialized engine that guards against the high corrosive effects of E85 on the parts of the engine that come into contact with fuel. Hence, LESS permeation than regular gas.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 2:53:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MlTCHELL:

Originally Posted By OregonShooter:
Well one advantage of E85 is the high Octane rating..... They should stuff a turbo on cars that Take E85 to counterbalane the lower preformace of using the fuel.


It is? I always assumed the "E" was for ethanol and the "85" part was for 85 Octane?

My turbo car only runs on leaded race gas



Doesn't the lead leave a coating that eventually clogs up your system and ruins your engine?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 2:54:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 3:06:48 PM EDT by bastiat]

Originally Posted By gunchyck:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By gunchyck:

Originally Posted By bastiat:
The EPA recently released information that confirmed ethanol blended gasoline pollutes more than regular gas.And the lundberg report had a piece that said because of the new mandate for ethanol use (thanks again, GWB!), ethanol prices have spiked, thus causing the overal price of gas to go up (for blended).

Ethanol is shit.



Really? Do you have a source for that? Not attacking, it's just that I've heard the opposite and would be interested in the answer.

ETA I'm doing searches, but nothing against Ethanol85 is coming up



Just posted this as its own thread:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=440979

And I've got a bunch more links showing how bad ethanol is (But some here refuse to admit it).



Ok, from that article, your arguement is bullshit. Forget that the source is a ultra-hippy "newspaper" that wants to ban cars altogether. The report is about the ethanol blends in regular gasolines and how it permeates through the engine parts, tubes, gaskets etc... and causes more pollution than regular gasoline THROUGH THE PERMEATION.

It has NOTHING to do with E85. those gases are 10% ethanol. E85 is 85% ethanol. Those run in regular engines. E85 cars have to have a specialized engine that guards against the high corrosive effects of E85 on the parts of the engine that come into contact with fuel. Hence, LESS permeation than regular gas.


Yes, I was talking about ethanol as an additive, not as the sole fuel source (E85)

BTW, It's an AP wire article that appeared in conservative AND 'hippy' papers.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 3:05:03 PM EDT
A 60 cent gallon of gas in 1974 is equivalent to about $2.38 today. Ain't inflation a bitch?


Actually, by summer of '74, thanks to "wage and price controls" intended to control inflation, gas shot up to over a buck a gallon. I remember it hitting $1.24 for a while.

So, what is a 1974 dollar a gallon gas equivilent to in today's money?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:52:59 PM EDT
What cost $1 in 1974 would cost $4.16 in 2005.

Inflation Calculator
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 6:52:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gunchyck:
I don't like to cower at the foot of the gas companies who can legally choose to charge us whatever they want and we are stuck with it, because we don't have other options.

In England they pay about $4 a gallon



For the record, in England and other countries, the fact that gasoline costs $4 a gallon isn't a result of the oil companies "choosing" to charge that amount. It's a result of their governments "choosing" to discourage fuel consumption, by adding outrageous taxes on top of the basic costs of buying, refining and distributing petroleum products - Costs that are roughly the same in any part of the world.

It is governmental policy that determines most of the major price differences between, say, Japan and the U.S. - If your government wants you to drive a tiny car or take the bus everywhere, they tax your gasoline accordingly. If not, they let the market decide the price you pay.

BTW, many American politicians (mostly on the Democratic side of the aisle) also favor raising gas taxes as a means of reducing American oil consumption.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 7:44:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Skibane:

Originally Posted By gunchyck:
I don't like to cower at the foot of the gas companies who can legally choose to charge us whatever they want and we are stuck with it, because we don't have other options.

In England they pay about $4 a gallon



For the record, in England and other countries, the fact that gasoline costs $4 a gallon isn't a result of the oil companies "choosing" to charge that amount. It's a result of their governments "choosing" to discourage fuel consumption, by adding outrageous taxes on top of the basic costs of buying, refining and distributing petroleum products - Costs that are roughly the same in any part of the world.

It is governmental policy that determines most of the major price differences between, say, Japan and the U.S. - If your government wants you to drive a tiny car or take the bus everywhere, they tax your gasoline accordingly. If not, they let the market decide the price you pay.

BTW, many American politicians (mostly on the Democratic side of the aisle) also favor raising gas taxes as a means of reducing American oil consumption.



Skibane, your avatar is whigging me out.

Isn't there already incredibly high taxes placed on gas? i was under that impreesion. (Unfortunately, I forget from what source I gleaned that impression...)
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 8:14:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By gunchyck:

Originally Posted By SIG-24-7:
Environmental Cars?

They reek of Mindless Liberal, Green-Peace, Birkenstock wearing, Hairy Armpitted Women, Fags, amd anyone else that spends most of their time looking like Al Franken and Gina Gerafallo.



So, you would rather pay $4 a gallon?



Would you rather pay $4000-5000 over the sticker cost of a regular car and hope that the batteries on your hybrid last long enough that you eventually break even before having to replace them?



There were a couple of studies done last year that show despite fuel savings and increases in fuel prices hybrid cars were significantly more expensive to operate over the lifetime of the car and one reason was the initial markup.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 8:15:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By cyrax777:
just wait for hydrogen fuel cell tech to take off.




and the hydgrogen has to come from somewhere.

Right now it takes more energy to produce the hydrogen than you get out of it.

The only place it's taking off is in a place like iceland- a very small population where they have a cheap, abundant energy source to make the hydrogen.



Yep

Hydgrogen car = pipe dream

UNLESS you are willing to build a LOT of nuke plants to produce the energy needed to make the hydgrogen and that ain't going to happen.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 7:16:01 AM EDT
If you really want to save gas either buy a house near work. That way you save all sorts of commuting costs. Also buy a house that is nice enough that you want to spend some time there--don't waste your evenings and weekends driving all over town, burning gas.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 7:31:47 AM EDT
itsgood4.us/

www.biodieselnow.com/


Even the H1 Hummer can be environmentally sound. And if you put out the effort to make your own, it can be made pretty cheaply.

And while other nations would take up and buy the oil that we wouldn't, we would no longer give a rat's ass what happens in the Middle East. We'd give it the same lip service that we do Africa. Oh, look another civil war in Iran, on page 4 of the paper. Hmm, Israel wiped out Syria after the latest invasion attempt. Too bad, what time is the game?
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 7:33:01 AM EDT
Get in an accident in a small car and get back to us
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 7:35:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2006 7:41:27 AM EDT by pv74]

Originally Posted By gunchyck:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By gunchyck:

Originally Posted By SIG-24-7:
Environmental Cars?

They reek of Mindless Liberal, Green-Peace, Birkenstock wearing, Hairy Armpitted Women, Fags, amd anyone else that spends most of their time looking like Al Franken and Gina Gerafallo.



So, you would rather pay $4 a gallon?



Would you rather pay $4000-5000 over the sticker cost of a regular car and hope that the batteries on your hybrid last long enough that you eventually break even before having to replace them?



I don't know what cars you are talking about in particular... but, for example the ethanol85 cars are normal cars. Any part that comes into contact with gas has been modified for the corrosive properties of the "environmental gas", but the rest of it is just a normal car/truck/etc.

And to answer your question, would I pay $1500 more for that so that the regular gas prices can't butt-fuck me? yes.

Now answer my question. Would you rather pay $4+ a gallon? Or do you think it will never go there?




Methanol is corrosive...Ethanol (purer than everclear) is not.
Almost any car can use a 10% blend of ethanol and gasoline...

At least that is what I have read about it...


Gas here in Korea is almost $5 bucks a gallon on the economy, once you factor in the exchange rate... roughly 1200 won a liter....about 950 won to the dollar now...
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 7:48:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gunchyck:

Originally Posted By MlTCHELL:

Originally Posted By OregonShooter:
Well one advantage of E85 is the high Octane rating..... They should stuff a turbo on cars that Take E85 to counterbalane the lower preformace of using the fuel.


It is? I always assumed the "E" was for ethanol and the "85" part was for 85 Octane?

My turbo car only runs on leaded race gas



Doesn't the lead leave a coating that eventually clogs up your system and ruins your engine?



I can answer this for him: The answer is no. I've run leaded gas (I buy honest to God tetraethyl lead and add it myself) in various cars and motorcycles over the years. Lead harms certain emmisions components like catalytic converters, but this is of no concern if the vehicle doesn't have these components. If you ran leaded gas in your regular daily driver, you'd fuck it up in short order.

Lead is the easiest and most effective way to increase the octane rating of gasoline - bar none, hands down, no contest, sit down. Those of us with compression ratios near 13:1 love the stuff.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 9:08:52 AM EDT
Theirs to much BS in this thread to quote it all, but I posted a detailed breakdown of gas prices awhile back run a search if you want, the gas companies only make on average 6-8 cents per gallon sometimes less the rest is cost, and tax, this is actually a below average profit margin when compared to other businesses....

As for the claims of record profit well duh, they took in a record amount, the inflation posts are good examples of this the gas was the same price in the 70's when adjusted for inflation yet the actual profits are less it makes since for example sell a million gallons at 50 cents per gallon, now sell a million gallons at 3 dollars per gallon, of course you made more, but it's still the equivalent of 50 cents a gallon in the 70's the profit margins didn't change, another example looks at the costs of production, say you ran a business, and you sell a product that it costs you $1 to produce, and you sell it at $2, at the end of the year you only manage to sell one so you have $2 in the register, and report a profit of $2, because you made $2, because that's how much was in your register, but next year your costs go up it now costs you $100 to produce your product, so now your selling it for $101, your still only making a dollar your costs have just gone up, you only manage to sell one again though so at the end of this year you have $101 in your register so you report a profit of $101, because that's how much is in your register, but now your costumer looks at your profit reports, and sees that you have made 100 times more than last year, and screams that your gouging him, what he fails to look at is your NET profit that's your profit, or how much you had in the register at the end of the year minus your costs so for year 1 $2-$1=$1, for year 2 $101-$100=$1, so your net profit for both years is still $1, you didn't gouge anyone, your costs went up....

As for E-85 it's complete bull shit think about it how do you get E-85?, Corn, What do you need to grow corn?, Tractors, and other farm equipment, what does the farm equipment need to work? GAS, and it takes more gas to make E-85 than you get from it, therefore IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE, the only reason it's cheap (and generally it's not cheaper than regular gas....) is because it's HEAVILY SUBSIDIZED, the cost difference is paid by the government with your tax dollars, so your still paying for it, and if they mandate it guess what that could mean TAX RAISING, and it gives you less milage so that means you have to buy more of it.... The only reason E-85 is Subsidized, and pushed is to make the Environmentalist whackos happy, and it's publicity.... The reason it's becoming more popular is that most people are sheep, and lack critical thinking skills.... Also even if the entire surface of the Earth were plated with corn there still would not be enough to replace gasoline....

Hybrids are also a joke, there under powered, most are tiny, sometimes like in high heat there no more efficient than standard cars, the electric part doesn't run on highways, the Batteries are EXPENSIVE, and where out, and the cars themselves are much more expensive than normal cars to, and it just doesn't balance itself out, the example of comparing the Neon to the Prious was good, also as was mentioned the standard cars are often discounted, or have a special deals, Hybrids are another thing that was created to appease the environmentalist whackos....

As for Diesel it's more expensive now because theirs more demand now, both from people who have figured out that Diesel gets better Milage than gas, and because it's become "cool", and is now a status symbol, also theirs less Diesel than gasoline, about half as much, about 50% of a barrel of oil is gas, and 25% is Diesel, and Diesel is not more "simply refined" as suggested by one poster it's refined at the same time as gasoline is, in the same process....

Gas is more expensive in Europe because of TAXES, European gas actually doesn't cost much more to make than American gas, so should be about the same prices, the rest is just TAX, both because the Environmentalist Whackos want to get people to not drive, and because the Europeans are Communists, and tax the crap out of everything so they can spend it....

You want to lower the price on gas you have to drill for oil in Alaska, allow more drilling in the Gulf, and off the Eastern Seaboard, build more Nuclear power plants, use one blend of gas in the whole country, use lead in the gas again, repeal the environmental regulations, and repeal the TAX....
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