Guys, I think what we're really discussing here is ethics and morality.  

It bothers me when some people claim to be honorable, holding others to their personal standards, yet are blatant religious bigots.  This is unethical.  I understand devotion and religious faith and have much of my own, but if you can not hold yourself to a standard of moral and ethical conduct exclusive of your individual views towards other devotions or lack thereof, you have no honor.  I'm specifically talking about when members such as garandman quote biblical context.  I personally have nothing against such actions.  But you are not getting your message across.  Most people tune out when you quote "God".  This is probably one of the reasons that there is such little mutual respect in this world.  People tune out when they can't relate to what you're talking about.  You should be able to explain your beliefs on ethics and morality, honor and itegrity without spewing apocolyptic text and flaming those who don't agree with your notion of the origins of such societal behaviors.  The truth is, you most likely have the same views, you just argue over the semantics.

You can't see the forest for the trees.

Not a flame.  I agree with a lot of your views, your methodology makes it hard to handle.

MedicJim -

re: the pedophile priest scenario

Would God command you to obey an "authority" that was in disobedience to Him??? Wouldn't that, in essence, be like God commanding you to disobey God???

When an "authority" commands you to disobey THE "Higher Authority" then the lower authority is NO LONGER an authority.

As the Apostle Paul said to the Jewish leaders who commanded him to stop preaching Christ - "Whether we ought to obey God or man, you decide."

In thiry four years, I have YET to see a life situation that the Bible does NOT give guidance for. Just think about who GAVE the Bible. HE has seen it all.

And when men "twist" the Bible, THEY become GUILTY before God for that.

Honor isn't a concrete concept.
It's an individual and cultural concept.
That's why when we visit other cultures, we try hard to be open to their ways.
Arabs burp after a good meal.  If you do this at home it's not the height of honorable behavior, but if you fail to do so in the home of an Arab host, after enjoying his hospitality, you dishonor yourself.
Some things, of course, you can't bend on.
What if you visit a tribe in South America (on a mission for your country) and the host offers you his daughter?  You are married, do you accept? [:)]

You say I'm a "bigot." You say I don't live up to what I "claim." You imply that I have "no honor." And  THEN you say that's NOT a flame??????

OK - I'm getting mixed signals here.... [}:D]

May God bless you. Live long and prosper. May the sun be on your face, and the wind at your back. Don't take any wooden nickels.

What else can I say to a post like this one??? [:D]

Garandman wrote  "and when men 'twist' the bible, THEY become GUILTY before God for that"

Then we are of like mind on the subject...I have to agree with Maud_Dib.... it is very hard to extract your opinions from your all to frequent references to the Bible....

I tend to assume manipulation of the truth WHENEVER someone feels the need to reference a Bible to support their opinion...

Does it strike anyone strange that the Bible, the Church and the belief in God are so often used by man as mechanisms to perpetrate EVIL...

The book itself is generally on the mark, and my  morality happens to run almost perfectly parallel with it...but I am constantly bashing into folks that just give it ever so slight a twist to serve their purpose...

I may be a bit off topic... I'm talking "Truth"...which in my mind is related to Honor...

Is a statement "True" which is 99.99 true and .01 percent false. What about 51% true

Then I'm doing a good job. I HAVE no opinion, other than what the Bible says.




Jesus Christ Himself quoted God's Word (specifically the Old testament.) ANd in fact He commanded His followers to quote the Bible, even His specific words, rather than go around spouting their own personal opinions.



People use cars for evil. people use guns for evil. Doesn't make cars or guns evil. evil people do evil things. INCLUDING manipulating God's Word for personal gains and purposes.

I don't claim any type of perfection, but I can tell you ALL my quotations of Scripture are to the best of my ability, accurate representations of the authors intent for the passsage.

....but you DO interpret what the Bible says.
That's opinion.
It is open to interpretation, hence the numerous Christian sects.

Application of Scripture REQUIRES a certain degree of interpretation.

As I said, to the best of my ability, I remain faithful to the intent of the text.

As I said, if I missapply the text, I am guilty before God for that.

The slings and arrows you guys may throw are of little consequence in comparison to that.

I quote Gods Word. People get pissed at me because you simply CANNOT argue with God's Word. I accept that as part of the deal.

And BTW, WHEN did this become PERSONALLY about me??? [}:D]

Hare Krisnas claim that the Bagvad Gita is God's word, written by God's hand.

The Bible was written by many different MEN, and then translated by more MEN.  There are quotes by God in the Bible, but in a court of law that would be Here-say (not to be confused with Heresy[:D]).

I'll let it go at this. GB's thread was about "honor." And I don't believe he wished it limited to a discussion of my PERSONAL honor [rolleyes]

If you wish to continue discussion, start a new thread, and I'll meet you there.

I don't believe I've questioned your honor.
If you feel that way, I apologize.
I must have done so without realizing what I was saying.

No, Maud_Dib pulled that stunt.

You have discussed with integrity, and "honor." We just disagree.

I only wished to re-direct the discussion, that somehow seemed centered around me.

Like I said, if it is merited, start another thread.

For the majority I believe that it is dead.
I see people around me everyday that are incredibly stupid.They are illiterate.They lack any shred of common sense.They know not the meaning of the word courtesy or graciousness.I will see acquaintance's of mine watching these mindless,useless situation "comedies" like "Frasier" or "Friends" or so much other dribble on the tube and they laugh hysterically while I on the other hand cannot even crack a grin.I think to myself what a fool or simpleton they are.They are being programmed to accept the lowest  form of intellect.Ever notice how so many people will not say "Thank You" when you hold the door for them.How many people will not acknowledge with a gesture of gratitude when you stop and let them cross in front of you in a parking lot.I was raised differently.To treat others with the same courtesy and respect that I expect from them.This society has lost those values and teachings.I don't really fear the future for those that have made their bed will surely sleep in it.

I wrote this twice.  Once without referencing you and then I changed it because I knew you'd take it personally.  So yeah, I guess it does sound like a flame.  I'm sorry if I offended you personally.  But I assure you that it is nothing personal.  I said members such as garandman, this includes everyone who is a religious bigot.

I'll admit, you did react differently then I expected so I probably should have just left your name out of it.  But like I said, I figured you'd think I was talking specifically about you anyway.  

The problem as I see it is in the quotation of a misenterpeted scripture.  The subsequent arguement that it is still the "word of God" really doens't hold water.  For example, I often hear people say that one of the Ten Commandments is "Thou Shall Not Kill".  In the original hebrew text, the commandments was "Thou Shall Not Murder".  And the Bible makes a distinct differentiation between murder and killing.  It even calls for killing in the name of God for things that we take for granted today.

I often hear people say that it is forbidden to mark your body in any way.  Yet they themselves are clean shaven.

Leviticus 19:27
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

Leviticus 19:28
Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

Which is held to the higher standard?  Both, neither?  Where have you drawn the line?

When you turn the other cheek, are you allowing a further assault, or are you forcing the perpetrator to acknowledge that you are a man?

The word of God is often corrupted, especially by those who have little or no knowledge of it's historical context.  It is corrupted even by those who have the best intentions.

I simply say that you should be able to make your points regarding honor without relying on direct scripture or the wrath of God.  If you make your point, the sheep will follow, and maybe some of the wolves will get caught up in the excitement.

MOLITAS, are you saying that I could not watch Frasier and still retain my Honor?
-bricklayer

Fraiser, yes.
Friends, no.

It's your time...spend it how you please.You don't need my permission.I just personally find that type of programming hollow or vacant if you will.I just think that people lacking in intellect gravitate to this type of "entertainment" and they usually are lacking in other societal values.Sorry if you find this offensive,that is not my intent.Just my opinion,that's all.

Compared to what?  Perfection?  Has never existed and will never exist.

And gm is half right. [:D]

Honor isn't dead.

Those with Honor and Integrity have always been a small portion of the whole.

That's one of the reasons those with it are a rare and magnificent breed.  

Most believe they are honorable, because they do "what's best".  Most are not, because "what's best" isn't always "what's right".  It's your actions that define you in this regard.  Not your intentions.

BTW, I don't watch tv very much [:D]

Simpsons?

Interestingly I have not seen any Bible believing person in this thread use any derogetory speech about others.  I have seen these folks being called "Bigots".  

If holding a belief is bigotry, then right you are, but if generalizations and Ad Hominem attacks are your definitions, then by God hold your tongue.  You use the term too freely, Maud_Dib, and it speaks to your heart.

Touche

Note the word "amusement" which could be substituted for "entertainment."

The prefix "a" - meaning "without."

"Muse" - meaning "to think."

Put them together. "Amusement" means literally to "do, WITHOUT thinking." To shut your brain off, and let the garbage flow in.

A good summation of 98% of TV today.

  Un..fourtunately I passed through that corridor too. In this world in these times(actually always has been) its the [size=6]$$$$$$.!![/size=6]we (the commoners) never got to see it before, all was to "hushhush".

Forgive me for stepping out of line here for a second and going against what this thread is about but....

I think the word is DRIVEL there Plato, did you hear "mindless drivel" on [b]TV[/b] incorrectly, Dennis Miller maybe?

I had to turn that around on you, "judge not lest ye be judged" or something like that anyway thats the part where I went against the grain and violated my own code but sorry, I didn't like what I was seeing. What the hell is wrong with tuning out once in a while? Yes those shows are stupid I don't like either one of them, but the shows I like: Simpsons, Family Guy, SouthPark Etc.. are equally if not more stupid, and they're GREAT! You can't spend all the time "thinking deep", that kinda shit leads to mental illness, you know like sitting in a starbucks with an $8 cup of coffee and an all-black-wearing-dnc-supporter-whacked-off-hair-dyke-looking-chick who is also "deep" and who will sit there with you for hours judging people as inferiors. What kind of stuff makes you laugh? have you ever?

Not that a persons intelligence or entertainment preference has to do anything with their honorability or morality or a thread on honor/ethics/morality, (judging people on it has everything to do with it though) but you sounded as bad as the PETA guy in the other thread.

The rest of your post top and bottom that didn't have anything to do with sitcoms was RIGHT ON though.

I am certainly not saying we're going have a perfect society, Hitler thought that.  Let me ask you this:

Do you see government getting better or worse?

Do you see the judicial system getting better or worse?

Do you see the U.N. getting better or worse?

Do you see the correctional facilities getting better or worse?

Do you see the school system getting better or worse?

Do you see USA mags getting better or worse?

I agree with you crowboy, but I believe that it was the parents of the generation in question who failed to teach their children about honor and responsibility. Indeed, what values will the next generation hold so high?

*sigh*

This was a MAJOR theme of the movie "Fight Club", for those who have yet to see it.

Tyler

I see it getting worse, then better, then worse...in other words, I see things running in cycles.



Same answer.



I see the UN as a basically powerless pawn of the US government.



Little of both.  They will be different, very different, within a few years.
They can't stay the way they are and everyone knows it.



I don't know, but I don't see either happening forever. Nothing continually gets worse or better in a human society.  It doesn't work that way.



Heh, that may be the exception to the rule...

Of course honor is dead.  Maybe a better question would be "Is shame dead?"

What did you expect when popular culture teaches our youth that our actions don't necessarily have to have consequences.  When movies like "Natural Born Killers" glorify random gratuitous violence, or "Pulp Fiction" which makes violence 'funny' AND drug abuse 'cool.'  The lowest common denominator demands filth and our media serves it up with relish all the while washing the blood off their hands by hiding behind the First Amendment.  These are the very same people who claim the Second Amendment is the root of all evil.  Talk about people in glass houses.  But don't bother looking behind the curtain.

Or turn to our politicians.  Why should someone work hard, play honest and by the rules when they see that if they obfuscate what the meaning of the word "is" well enough they can get out of a jam.  Or stonewall enough so people will get tired and only wish the ordeal was over, rather than demand the truth.  Outright murder isn't even a problem for some of them.  They create the laws, but certainly don't think they pertain to them.

Or turn to our professional entertainers and atheletes.  It doesn't matter if you commit crime, do drugs, or beat your wife.  As long as you can produce on Gameday all is forgiven.  Actors denounce violence on one hand and then portray gun-toting lunatics on the other.  Do as I say, not as I do.

...and you have to ask is "honor dead."  

My friend, its deader than Elvis.

Societies don't collapse all at once.  They slowly decline over time.

Michigander in Maryland

Honor dead?  Not entirely, but most likely is something that the definition of has changed for more than just quite a few people in the world today.

I try to live my life honorably, I still believe that my word is my bond, a handshake is a contract.  To me, honesty is an important part of honor, and one's honor is something that should not be taken lightly.  In fact, I find myself in a rather bad situation in my personal life because of my definition of honor and my inability, or unwillingness to tarnish it.

I find myself separated from my wife.  We lived together for over a year before we got married, and six months after our nuptials, she left me, saying that she was unhappy.  I never abused her, but tried to do everything possible to make her happy, but unfortunately she just was not ready for marriage and decided that it was just easier for her to leave rather than try to work on our marriage.

It came to me as a complete shock when she left.  Up to the day that she left, if someone would have asked if I was happily married, I would have been able to honestly reply that I was.  We would have some arguments, which really were not heated and never went to lengths of name-calling or shouting at the tops of our lungs.  I found that to be quite normal, especially since it did not occur all the time. (perhaps less than once a month).  Each argument would be resolved, perhaps after taking some time for each of us to calm down.  Again, I think this is pretty normal.

When we exchanged our marriage vows, I had made the decision that this was the woman that I was going to spend my life with.  I knew that there would be good times, along with the bad, but made the commitment to her and myself that I would work on the marriage, and divorce was never an option.  This involved my honor.  Additionally, during one of our arguments, my estranged wife asked me if I thought we made a mistake and if I was thinking about filing for a divorce.

This took me back, and I told her that I was not even thinking about something like that.  I then told her that I wanted to spend my life with her, and that I would never file for divorce, but I would always be willing to work on the relationship.  This was a second vow that involved my honor.

As I said, I thought things were going overall well, and was stunned when she left last year (right before Christmas in fact).  She has promptly moved in with another man (less than two weeks after leaving), and refused to work on our relationship.  I did go to professional consoling, and found out that I had a form of an anxiety disorder (which is rather easily treated, and I am still undergoing the treatment for that with great success).  My estranged wife did go to one of my sessions, but only said repeatedly that the relationship was over, that she did not want to work on it because she did not see it workable.

At that point, my counselor, asked what we were going to do next.  I had already made my vows, and my honor is involved, so I told both her and my wife that I could accept my wife's position (not really understand it, but accept it), but because I had promised her that I would never file, that if the marriage was to be over, she would have to file.

cont-

This was six months ago, and I have yet to hear anything.  I have moved out of our place and gotten  my own, and still am paying for insurance on her.  I have made no attempts to contact her (especially since I have no idea of where she lives, e-mail addy, works, etc), and have not heard from her.  I know that it sounds like a copout, but I firmly believe that by my act of filing, I would be doing an action that is completely at odds with my honor.

Is honor worth it?  Is the pain that I suffer through daily work keeping my honor intact?  I believe it is, for when all is said and done, the way you have lived your life is pretty much all that you are remembered by, and I cannot think of an epitaph better than someone being able to say that even through all I have gone, I died with my honor intact.

I'm sorry for your situation. It sounds bad.

I don' t think I've recently heard a better description of honor, or what is involved in keeping it.

May teh blessings of God, and His Son Jesus Christ, come on you.

No offense taken,  thankfullness extended.