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Posted: 2/25/2006 8:29:13 PM EDT
From http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=\SpecialReports\archive\200602\SPE20060217a.html

Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers
By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
February 17, 2006

(CNSNews.com) - Agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), allegedly acting without warrants or legislative authority to do so, seized firearms from at least 50 gun show patrons in Virginia according to congressional testimony and an agency document made public Wednesday. Witnesses also testified that African-American and female gun buyers in Richmond, Va., and Pittsburgh, Pa., were profiled based on their race or sex and some in Pittsburgh were threatened with arrest by ATF agents for alleged actions that are not violations of law.

Rep. Howard Coble (R-N.C.) chairs the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security, which has jurisdiction over ATF. While he supports the agency's mission, Coble questions some of its tactics.

"ATF reports that 206 [gun show] participants were stopped and interviewed while it confiscated firearms from another 50 participants," Coble said, referring to gun shows in Richmond, Va. "Although most of the firearms were ultimately returned, the purchasers were notified via official letter from ATF that [they] were ordered to appear at the local ATF office to discuss their transactions. In addition, the letter explained that failure to appear could result in an arrest warrant being issued for the alleged charges."

The form letter had blanks for the name of the gun show patron and the date and time they were ordered to appear at the ATF field office, but cited no authority for the gun confiscations or the mandatory office visits.

"An investigation has revealed that you may have violated Title 18 U.S.C. Section 924(a)(1)(A), a crime punishable by imprisonment for up to five years," the letter began. The U.S. Code citation refers, in this instance, to knowingly making a false statement on the ATF Form 4473 "Firearms Transaction Record Part I - Over-The-Counter," which is completed for each firearm purchased from a federally licensed firearms dealer (FFL).

"The firearm that you purchased is being taken into ATF custody," the letter continued, citing no authority for the seizure.

Rep. Bobby Scott (D-Va.) said the ATF letter and the reported interrogation of lawful gun buyers raise "serious questions."

"There's a way to have a sting operation that's legal. This dragnet, apparent dragnet, however, is not the way it ought to be done," Scott said. "You have to show probable cause and it can be done. But you ought not just stop people without probable cause and without any indication of guilt."

John White, a former law enforcement officer who is now an FFL operating under the business name "The Gunsmith," said female customers who approached his sales area at the Richmond shows were immediately targeted by the "undercover" officers.

"If a woman showed up at my table, she was surrounded by law enforcement," White recalled. "If the lady walked off and suddenly stopped, they would have bumped into each other. Their surveillance methods were pitiful.

"Every woman that makes a purchase, every woman who comes to my table to buy a gun was automatically [treated as] a straw purchaser," White said. (A "straw purchaser" is a person who can otherwise legally purchase a firearm, but who does so with the intent to illegally provide it to an ineligible buyer such as a convicted felon or an illegal alien. "Straw purchases" are illegal.)

As Cybercast News Service initially reported, ATF agents working with as many as 400 state, county and city police officers near Richmond, Va., conducted so-called "residency checks" on individuals who purchased firearms from the Showmasters Gun Show Aug. 13 and 14, 2005. Uniformed officers went to the homes of prospective gun buyers, while they waited for their National Instant Check System (NICS) background checks to be completed and questioned family members and neighbors about the gun buyers' firearm purchasing habits.

In a subsequent report, Cybercast News Service detailed that ATF had conducted at least seven similar gun show "sting operations" targeting Richmond-area residents since July of 2004. ATF refused to discuss any of the operations with Cybercast News Service and refused to provide any documentation in response to Freedom of Information Act requests filed by the sponsors of the Richmond gun shows.

Suzanne McComas, a licensed private investigator who has worked with the America's Most Wanted television program, was hired by the National Rifle Association (NRA) to gather information about ATF's Richmond operations. During her investigation, she learned that the agency had been conducting "residency checks" in at least one other U.S. city, but using different and "much more intimidating" tactics.

"At Pittsburgh, the Firearms Task Force there that's also headed by the ATF, instead of doing residency checks immediately, they're collecting the 4473 with the purchaser's address on it, then they go knock at the door about a week later and ask, 'Could we see the gun that you bought?'" McComas explained. "There's absolutely no process involved, there's no reason for them to do it. If you cannot produce the gun, they ask you for the sale paperwork. If you refuse to produce the paperwork they put you under arrest for a 'straw purchase.'"

Federal law requires licensed gun dealers to complete an ATF Form 4473 for each firearm sold through their business, in addition to any forms required by the state, county and/or city where they do business. Private sales between individuals, who are not engaged in the firearms trade as a business, are subject to no such federal recordkeeping requirements. Therefore a gun show purchaser could legally sell or even give the gun they purchased to someone else yet have no paperwork to meet the ATF's demand.

"You and I know that, but [a woman who bought a gun and then gave or sold it to someone else, both legally] probably doesn't," McComas told Cybercast News Service. "If she can't produce it, they arrest her for a straw purchase and her life turns into a living hell until she can prove otherwise. It's zero probable cause except for the fact that they thought it was a straw purchase because she was black and she was young and she was female."

McComas questioned not only the legality of the ATF tactics in Pittsburgh, but also the methodology.

"When I asked them what their criteria was for the people that they collected the 4473s on at the Pittsburgh show, the answer I got back was, 'If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck. That's all we need,'" McComas continued. "Translation: Under 30 and black, period. That's all they were looking for. Anyone who meets those criteria, they're doing a follow-up on."

She said that, as in Richmond, agents in Pittsburgh were also engaged in activities that gun dealers believe were designed to discourage lawful purchases by minorities.

"Anyone who was a minority, they picked up their 'tail,' if you will, and just followed them through the gun show. When they stopped at a table, the agents would literally stand on one side or the other and watch what they were doing. If they started to purchase a gun [the agents] would ask them why they were buying it, what were they buying it for, what did they need that gun for," McComas related. "It was ridiculous. There was absolutely no reason for it other than the color of their skin."

Rep. William Delahunt (D-Mass.) said he had not intended to attend the hearing, which was held immediately after a subcommittee vote on an unrelated bill, but stayed because he was fascinated by the witnesses' testimony.

"These must be the dumbest ATF agents in the entire agency," Delahunt said. "I am absolutely shocked that they could be that stupid.

"It's almost to the point that it's difficult to believe," he added. "I have never heard of an experience like the ones you recount, but you all seem to be in agreement. It's just mind-boggling."

Rep. Tom Feeney (R-Fla.) expressed curiosity that federal law enforcement officers would not know that the actions described by White and McComas violate federal statutes.

"Did anybody mention that it is a federal crime to deny women or minorities their civil rights?" Feeney asked. "Did anybody mention to the ATF that denying civil rights, including the right to bear arms, is a federal crime?"

Feeney suggested that, since ATF had refused to comply with the Freedom of Information Act requests from the gun show promoters, the subcommittee should request the information they were seeking. Coble noted that such a letter had already been sent.

ATF representatives present at Wednesday's hearing reluctantly identified themselves by raising their hands when asked to do so by Coble. They would not respond to the new allegations raised in the hearing, but referred questions to their press office. ATF officials are expected to testify on the issues raised Wednesday in a second hearing scheduled for Feb. 28.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 9:17:24 PM EDT


ATF representatives present at Wednesday's hearing reluctantly identified themselves by raising their hands when asked to do so by Coble. They would not respond to the new allegations raised in the hearing, but referred questions to their press office.



Arrogant , ignorant, lawbreaking sons of bitches.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 9:35:58 PM EDT


ATF representatives present at Wednesday's hearing reluctantly identified themselves by raising their hands when asked to do so by Coble. They would not respond to the new allegations raised in the hearing, but referred questions to their press office.




Arrogant fuckers refusing to answer questions from elected reps. Who do they think they are?
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 9:49:42 PM EDT
Waiting for the resident jbts to come running to their aid.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:00:51 PM EDT
Last year called.... it wants its thread back
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:14:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:23:38 PM EDT
Ladies and Gents, the days of the BATF are drawing to a close.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:29:11 PM EDT
you're dreaming, more and worse to come...
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:36:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By g3shooter:
Ladies and Gents, the days of the BATF are drawing to a close.



[Dr. evil] Riiiiiiiiiiiight[/Dr. evil]
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:38:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
Waiting for the resident jbts to come running to their aid.



Don't know of anybody here to defend these acts. There is no "more to the story" or "just one side of the story", these men, acting under the guise of federal authority, willfully violated peoples rights and threatened to throw them in jail for not having paperwork.

I'm what you would probably refer to as a "JBT apologist", since I don't crucify every cop in every story that comes into this forum, but these fuckers should pay, and dearly. I would love to see them sacked and charged.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:40:21 PM EDT
tagged
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:44:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 10:57:05 PM EDT by LANCEMAN]
Don't worry Hillary will be able to keep those guys in check when she is elected, she might even appoint Chuckie Schumer as the AG, he will make sure the BATF doesn't get out of line
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:52:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
Last year called.... it wants its thread back



Nooooooo...




Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers

February 17, 2006

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:56:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

I'm what you would probably refer to as a "JBT apologist", since I don't crucify every cop in every story that comes into this forum, but these fuckers should pay, and dearly. I would love to see them sacked and charged.




I'd at least like "contempt of Congress" for refusing to answer a rep's questions and telling him to call the press office. That's some bullshit.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 11:06:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By myitinaw:
you're dreaming, more and worse to come...





+1 Yea, these guys will probably get a pat on the back for a job well done and thier actions become standard operating procedure.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 11:19:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BangStick1:

Originally Posted By myitinaw:
you're dreaming, more and worse to come...





+1 Yea, these guys will probably get a pat on the back for a job well done and thier actions become standard operating procedure.



medal of Honor for Civic duty to the country!!nothing less!
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 11:31:22 PM EDT
Some Fed DOT/FRA inspectors like to make up their own versions of the laws, force you to follow "thier interpretion", make threats, and act like arrogant fucks too. Must be a federal badge/small pecker thing.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 11:33:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mauser101:

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
Last year called.... it wants its thread back



Nooooooo...




Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers

February 17, 2006




and when was all of this discussed in great detail?

Last year
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 11:48:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 11:49:46 PM EDT by thedoctors308]

Originally Posted By TheKill:
Some Fed DOT/FRA inspectors like to make up their own versions of the laws, force you to follow "thier interpretion", make threats, and act like arrogant fucks too. Must be a federal badge/small pecker thing.



I think it is more a "we want to play with the Big Boys" thing. ATF is no FBI/CIA/NSA and I think they resent that.
I think they are like the Rent A Cops - ATF wishes they were "real feds" so they try to create work for themselves.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 12:41:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

Originally Posted By Mauser101:

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
Last year called.... it wants its thread back



Nooooooo...




Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers

February 17, 2006




and when was all of this discussed in great detail?

Last year



And when was the congressional hearing on the matter?

Not last year.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 1:18:52 AM EDT

"At Pittsburgh, the Firearms Task Force there that's also headed by the ATF, instead of doing residency checks immediately, they're collecting the 4473 with the purchaser's address on it, then they go knock at the door about a week later and ask, 'Could we see the gun that you bought?'" McComas explained. "There's absolutely no process involved, there's no reason for them to do it. If you cannot produce the gun, they ask you for the sale paperwork. If you refuse to produce the paperwork they put you under arrest for a 'straw purchase.'"


Is that legal? Do citizens have to comply?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 4:12:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
From http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=\SpecialReports\archive\200602\SPE20060217a.html

Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers
By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
February 17, 2006

(CNSNews.com) - Agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), allegedly acting without warrants or legislative authority to do so, seized firearms from at least 50 gun show patrons in Virginia according to congressional testimony and an agency document made public Wednesday. Witnesses also testified that African-American and female gun buyers in Richmond, Va., and Pittsburgh, Pa., were profiled based on their race or sex and some in Pittsburgh were threatened with arrest by ATF agents for alleged actions that are not violations of law.



Racial profiling, hummmmmmmmmmm, I thought this was a no no, at least against certain races!
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 4:25:53 AM EDT
What happened in the early 80's when the Senate Report came out that basically said that the 2nd ammendment was an individual right and that the ATF spent something like 90% of its resources chasing down gun owners with no criminal intent....

NOTHING

There may be some 'reform', But you still have 3 wolves and 1 sheep voting for dinner. Nothing will change. Only repeal of the major gun laws in this country will have any effect and they are not going to repeal NFA34 or GOA68 or any of the others. Only if these major laws are repealed will the ATF's power evaporate.

Maybe they will enact another Ruby Ridge or Waco to give them a media boost. But I'm sure the people they pick on will be labled terrorists or racists or child molesters and then the ATF will be hero's again in the public eye.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 4:28:49 AM EDT
"Did anybody mention that it is a federal crime to deny women or minorities their civil rights?" Feeney asked. "Did anybody mention to the ATF that denying civil rights, including the right to bear arms, is a federal crime?"


Somebody arrest Richie Daley.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 4:30:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 4:39:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
Waiting for the resident jbts to come running to their aid.



No worry here. Let them have some more of that rope and let them hang themselfs.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 4:52:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Spade:

ATF representatives present at Wednesday's hearing reluctantly identified themselves by raising their hands when asked to do so by Coble. They would not respond to the new allegations raised in the hearing, but referred questions to their press office.




Arrogant fuckers refusing to answer questions from elected reps. Who do they think they are?[/quote]
jackbooted thugs
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 4:54:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:02:22 AM EDT
I've worked at many many shows over the last quarter century and I can honestly say that no black woman has ever asked to look at or purchase any of my guns. This may be because during that twenty five years I have seen very few "ethnic" women in the shows. What does this mean? maybe nothing............
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 6:13:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mattja:

"At Pittsburgh, the Firearms Task Force there that's also headed by the ATF, instead of doing residency checks immediately, they're collecting the 4473 with the purchaser's address on it, then they go knock at the door about a week later and ask, 'Could we see the gun that you bought?'" McComas explained. "There's absolutely no process involved, there's no reason for them to do it. If you cannot produce the gun, they ask you for the sale paperwork. If you refuse to produce the paperwork they put you under arrest for a 'straw purchase.'"


Is that legal? Do citizens have to comply?



I would have told them to fuck off.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 6:17:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 6:22:31 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
Last year called.... it wants its thread back



Yup, here it is.
archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=382102
archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=380592

Fun to see how many called BS on it back then...........

txinvestigator
Phil_A_Steen
JavaMan was the worst by far, tell us "smallfry" we were all full of shit, but hasn't been man enough to comment on it since.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 7:20:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By g3shooter:
Ladies and Gents, the days of the BATF are drawing to a close.




You remember what happened last time it looked like the ATF might be dissolved right?

Link Posted: 2/26/2006 8:51:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

Originally Posted By Mauser101:

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
Last year called.... it wants its thread back



Nooooooo...




Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers

February 17, 2006




and when was all of this discussed in great detail?

Last year



Why do you care? Stop trolling in the thread.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 8:58:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
Waiting for the resident jbts to come running to their aid.



I don't think you will see that happen here ( i hope).
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:11:18 AM EDT
So if they came up to my door and asked would I get in trouble if I told them to FO? Having committed no crime they shouldn't be able to do anything. And how many of us have paperwork when we sell/trade a gun to another shooter?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:12:33 AM EDT

Rep. Tom Feeney (R-Fla.) expressed curiosity that federal law enforcement officers would not know that the actions described by White and McComas violate federal statutes.

"Did anybody mention that it is a federal crime to deny women or minorities their civil rights?" Feeney asked. "Did anybody mention to the ATF that denying civil rights, including the right to bear arms, is a federal crime?"



since when did the ATF or anyone else in the gov care about that?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:15:11 AM EDT


I'm no fan on the ACLU, but they could really make someone (or several people) alot of money with a civil rights suit.

If they can find a few black women that were harassed and or arrested for buying a firearm, WHOA Cha-Ching, money in the bank.

Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:28:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LE6920:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
Waiting for the resident jbts to come running to their aid.



I don't think you will see that happen here ( i hope).



Attempts to cry dupe is a not so clever way of aiding this cause. (Not by you, glad to see a voice of reason from the LE side, thanks for that.)
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:29:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:33:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Busch308:
So if they came up to my door and asked would I get in trouble if I told them to FO? Having committed no crime they shouldn't be able to do anything. And how many of us have paperwork when we sell/trade a gun to another shooter?



They would find some way of making your life miserable.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:51:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 9:59:37 AM EDT by Wobblin-Goblin]

Tom Feeney (R-Fla.) expressed curiosity that federal law enforcement officers would not know that the actions described by White and McComas violate federal statutes.

"Did anybody mention that it is a federal crime to deny women or minorities their civil rights?" Feeney asked. "Did anybody mention to the ATF that denying civil rights, including the right to bear arms, is a federal crime?"


Well, well, well.

Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:52:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By g3shooter:
Ladies and Gents, the days of the BATF are drawing to a close.


I want what you're smoking.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:53:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By g3shooter:
Ladies and Gents, the days of the BATF are drawing to a close.


I want what you're smoking.



+1 Tommy Chong isn't answering his phone anymore.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:55:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheKill:
Some Fed DOT/FRA inspectors like to make up their own versions of the laws, force you to follow "thier interpretion", make threats, and act like arrogant fucks too. Must be a federal badge/small pecker thing.


+1.

State DOT officers are notorious around here for being assholes.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:38:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Triumph955i:

Originally Posted By Busch308:
So if they came up to my door and asked would I get in trouble if I told them to FO? Having committed no crime they shouldn't be able to do anything. And how many of us have paperwork when we sell/trade a gun to another shooter?



They would find some way of making your life miserable.



If the ATF wants you, they will find a way to get you.

Your rifles will fire doubles and become an MG.
They'll find M16 FCG parts in your spares box.
Those tire washers and pvc pipe will become silencer parts.
Some of your shotguns will be .25" below the legal OAL.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 4:54:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Spade:


ATF representatives present at Wednesday's hearing reluctantly identified themselves by raising their hands when asked to do so by Coble. They would not respond to the new allegations raised in the hearing, but referred questions to their press office.




Arrogant fuckers refusing to answer questions from elected reps. Who do they think they are?





Ted Kennedy??????????

John Kerry????????????

Bill Klinton??????????????

Hildebeast Klinton????????
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 4:55:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mattja:

"At Pittsburgh, the Firearms Task Force there that's also headed by the ATF, instead of doing residency checks immediately, they're collecting the 4473 with the purchaser's address on it, then they go knock at the door about a week later and ask, 'Could we see the gun that you bought?'" McComas explained. "There's absolutely no process involved, there's no reason for them to do it. If you cannot produce the gun, they ask you for the sale paperwork. If you refuse to produce the paperwork they put you under arrest for a 'straw purchase.'"


Is that legal? Do citizens have to comply?



Not at all.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:11:17 PM EDT
At least all of the feds went home safe that night. That's all that matters.
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