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Posted: 2/24/2006 5:58:24 PM EDT
I bought my first Glock about a year ago...maybe more, I dont remember at this point. It's my first plastic gun, and my second weapon in .40S&W (yes, I am professional enough......)

Before this, I have been shooting 1911's, a Taurus 92, a host of revolvers, semi's, and in just about every caliber out there. I have always been a fairly good shot. Regardless of what I was shooting....357mag, 44mag, 22lr, 9mm.......I have been a 10 ring kinda guy.

Then came this damn glock. At first I couldnt get used to the trigger.
After well over 1000 rounds I have the trigger figured out, but I am still pulling my shots to the right....so maybe I dont have it figured out. I am a terrible shot with this damn gun. Out of say 10 shots, I can manage to group about 7-8 of them inside say 3-4" at 10 yards....and invariably, there are a few strays somewhere else on the paper 8" away. Same thing damn near every mag worth. I am tired of trying to figure this Glock thing out. Tonight I asked someone else at the range to take a few shots, just so I could see if it was the gun or me. Its me. They gave some advice, most of the same things I have heard from Glock fans for the last year. Thing is, I am tired of trying to learn how to shoot this thing. I have been shooting for 30 years and can nail 1 inch groups with my other handguns at the same distact, regardless of caliber. There is just something I can figure out with this damn thing.

So now I have to face the big question...what do I buy for a CCW next?
I dont want another plastic gun...but I want something that is light enough to carry comfortably.
I like 1911's, but dont really want to carry one. I always liked the Beretta 92 style but thats a lot of metal and will weigh me down after a full day of being in my IWB holster.

What isnt a plastic toy that shoots like a target gun, but carrys nicely and has a double digit capacity? Hit me with some suggestions.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 6:04:19 PM EDT
Sig P210 shoots like a Target gun, but does NOT have a double stack Magazine.

Since you are averse to a small 1911 such as a Springfield V-10, I would suggest a Sig Sauer P239 or a Sig Sauer P229

www.sigarms.com/products/index.asp
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 6:04:20 PM EDT
I would suggest something Sig. I love my p228. It's a 9mm, but if you like the bigger calibers, they make those too. All are fine guns.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 6:04:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97:
Sig P210 shoots like a Target gun, but does NOT have a double stack Magazine.

Since you are averse to a small 1911 such as a Springfield V-10, I would suggest a Sig Sauer P239 or a Sig Sauer P229

www.sigarms.com/products/index.asp



lol beat me by one second.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 6:05:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 6:08:22 PM EDT by mr_camera_man]
Kahr, S&W 3913, 908, or 4013.

If you have a thing for Beretta, look for a 92 type M, which is a single-stack 92 compact.

Edit: just saw "double-digit capacity". A SIG P228 with the stamped slide would be slightly lighter and easier to carry than the 229. Also maybe a S&W 6906.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 6:05:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 6:10:12 PM EDT
Get the SIG while you still have your fingers.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 7:54:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By macro:

What isnt a plastic toy that shoots like a target gun, but carrys nicely and has a double digit capacity? Hit me with some suggestions.



H&K USP .45=12rd. mag. cap.
or get their .357Sig caliber and get a spare .40S&W barrel.
As an added benefit, i think H&K's dual captive recoil springs are quite effetive at reducing recoil.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 8:08:59 PM EDT
I just got an XD .45 fullsize and I love it to death, but they also make a subcompact (not in .45 from what I know). Even if you wanted a full size they make a .40 and 9mm that should do pretty well for you. I love mine at the range.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:57:15 AM EDT
Bump for the morning crew...still looking for ideas.
H&K USP45 sounds interesting....any other opinions on those?
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 4:46:37 AM EDT
You are blaming the gun for your personal marksmanship deficiencies? Instead of replacing the gun, get a range session or two in with someone who can evaluate what you are doing wrong with the Glock.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 4:51:28 AM EDT
keep the Glock - and get a Sig228. I have both and won't part with either. Shoot about the same with both - fair at best but I'm getting better.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 4:53:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 4:53:49 AM EDT by DarkNite]

Originally Posted By macro:
Bump for the morning crew...still looking for ideas.
H&K USP45 sounds interesting....any other opinions on those?



I had a USP .45 Tactical that had a trigger light years better than the standard USP and it still felt like a pricing gun to me (ker-chunk!).

Try an XD.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 4:54:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
You are blaming the gun for your personal marksmanship deficiencies? Instead of replacing the gun, get a range session or two in with someone who can evaluate what you are doing wrong with the Glock.


I'm still trying to figure out why someone would carry a gun they couldn't shoot with?
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 4:59:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
You are blaming the gun for your personal marksmanship deficiencies? Instead of replacing the gun, get a range session or two in with someone who can evaluate what you are doing wrong with the Glock.



I'm not really blaming the gun, just saying that I dont feel like spending any more time to figure out the nuances of the glock. I have shot guns from just about every major manufacturer for many years and not had this experience. I have never needed more than a box of ammo to dial in a weapon to the point where I was very comfortable with it. I just never got spot on accurate with this style of trigger.

I am not getting rid of the G22, I fully plan to keep it and continue to shoot it.
Other than not liking the trigger, its a great gun. Never jammed, never failed in any way, and hasnt even blown up in my hand! It has been perfectly reliable....I just dont like the groups I shoot with it.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:03:36 AM EDT
What are your split times?
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:06:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
You are blaming the gun for your personal marksmanship deficiencies? Instead of replacing the gun, get a range session or two in with someone who can evaluate what you are doing wrong with the Glock.



Holy thread reader Batman!


Originally Posted by macro:
I am tired of trying to figure this Glock thing out. Tonight I asked someone else at the range to take a few shots, just so I could see if it was the gun or me. Its me.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:13:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By w4klr:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
You are blaming the gun for your personal marksmanship deficiencies? Instead of replacing the gun, get a range session or two in with someone who can evaluate what you are doing wrong with the Glock.



Holy thread reader Batman!


Originally Posted by macro:
I am tired of trying to figure this Glock thing out. Tonight I asked someone else at the range to take a few shots, just so I could see if it was the gun or me. Its me.





Again....not 'blaming' the gun. Its the only one I have had an issue with.
There is something that I just cant get used to with the glock trigger....I dont like it, it doesnt care for me. Its not a matter of learning to hold the gun steady or some general fundamental....I have tried everything I know. Various grips, stances, breathing....none of it works consistantly. Yet, I pick up anything else on my table and I hit point of aim on the same target. I know the weapon itself is accurate because I had someone else shoot it and it was fairly decent. Its a matter of not having a good feel for the release on the trigger, and I am tired of trying to figure it out.

Alternatively, does anyone do trigger work on glocks?
Can they be tuned like any other weapon?
If the let off was a bit crisper this might make a difference.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:15:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macro:
Again....not 'blaming' the gun. Its the only one I have had an issue with.
There is something that I just cant get used to with the glock trigger....I dont like it, it doesnt care for me. Its not a matter of learning to hold the gun steady or some general fundamental....I have tried everything I know. Various grips, stances, breathing....none of it works consistantly. Yet, I pick up anything else on my table and I hit point of aim on the same target. I know the weapon itself is accurate because I had someone else shoot it and it was fairly decent. Its a matter of not having a good feel for the release on the trigger, and I am tired of trying to figure it out.

Alternatively, does anyone do trigger work on glocks?
Can they be tuned like any other weapon?
If the let off was a bit crisper this might make a difference.



I know you aren't blaming the gun, I was pointing out that you said the problem was you. When I bought my Glock, I had a 3 pound disconnect installed into mine, made a world of difference from the factory pull. It made a fairly noticable accuracy increase in my shooting.

Now that 1911 I used to have, bullseyes didn't stand a chance!
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:18:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By w4klr:
When I bought my Glock, I had a 3 pound disconnect installed into mine, made a world of difference from the factory pull. It made a fairly noticable accuracy increase in my shooting.



Got a link?
I would be interested in checking that out
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:19:37 AM EDT
My $.02 is that there is still an issue with your trigger squeeze, but it's hard to say for sure without being there. It sounds like too much trigger. There is an issue with your technique, a G22 can be pretty darn accurate if used properly. One way you could look at this situation is is as an excellent training opportunity. You say you are a ten rign kind of guy, which means you have some pride in your ability to shoot in the ten ring. Then you qualify it by saying that you only shoot in the ten ring with certain guns. This is a fantastic chance to fix a deficiency in your shooting skills. It isn't the gun's fault you aren't getting ten ring hits. Swallow the pride that you have been nurturing for 30 years, step out of your comfort zone, and fix the problem. You're being handed an opportunity and you are not rising to the challenge. Improve your ability to shoot.

It's easy to get comfortable with certain guns, and a shooting routine. Especially if it's the way you've been doing things for years. If you don't step out of your comfort zone once and awhile you will never get any better, only maintain your preconceived opinion of yourself as a ten ring kind of guy. A lot of people pay goodly sums of money to have professional instructors take them out of their comfort zones to improve their skills. Even shooters with 30 years of experience. Don't let a particular kind of gun be a crutch.

This is just my opinion and I could be dead wrong. We all have an image of ourselves as capable shooters. Especially when it comes to something as important as the ability to defend ourselves, we like to be secure in the knowledge that if SHTF, we will be able to hold our own. I personally feel the need to test this perception of myself whenever possible, because I really don't want to find out how mistaken I was at the worst possible time. This Glock that you are coming to dispise may be a blessing in a plastic casing. Instead of talking about what a piece of junk this plastic gun is, make it work. When you get the hang of it, and have worked out the bugs, then feel free to make as much fun of it as you want.

This just makes me think about a basic combative pistol class I attended that was being hosted by a Marine that was also a pistol instructor/competition shooter with over 20 years of experience, that had his whole world shattered over a two day period because the class took him way out of his comfort zone. In the end he improved his shooting skills, percieved shooting in a new way, and found that no matter how good you are there is always a new challenge.

I apologize if I am out of line or sound abbrasive in this post. It is not meant to be mean spirited. I see a genuine opportunity here for you and hope you rise to the occasion. Best of luck, and know that I will be out on the range today pushing my limits as well. When I start to feel comfortable I know I could be doing something better/different/faster what ever. For example, hits in the ten ring mean that you could be shooting faster.

Best wishes,
2IDdoc
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:22:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macro:

Originally Posted By w4klr:
When I bought my Glock, I had a 3 pound disconnect installed into mine, made a world of difference from the factory pull. It made a fairly noticable accuracy increase in my shooting.



Got a link?
I would be interested in checking that out



glockmeister.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/13_77/products_id/242

I didn't buy something that elaborate, I only bought an $8 disconnect from a LE store by my house. Actually, I didn't pay for it, he gave it to me!
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:25:50 AM EDT
Supposedly (as mentioned above) the 3 1/2 Lb disconnector does a world of good...in THEORY, having a "lightened" (i.e....the prosecutor will call it a "Hair Trigger" if you are ever involved in a shooting...Of course, I can see a good defense attorney walking into court with a 3 1/2 Beef Roast and slamming it on the table and saying "this looks like a lot more than a "Hair") trigger can cause issues.

There is also the "New York" trigger--heavier than standard, but supposedly also smooths out the pull.

Here's one at SportsmansGuide: Scherer Trigger Connector


Had Glocks and had the same issues with them....since sold. However, when I eventually get a G20 replacement, I'll probably try the Scherer trigger also (and better sights).

AFARR
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:30:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
My $.02 is that there is still an issue with your trigger squeeze, but it's hard to say for sure without being there. It sounds like too much trigger. There is an issue with your technique, a G22 can be pretty darn accurate if used properly. One way you could look at this situation is is as an excellent training opportunity. You say you are a ten rign kind of guy, which means you have some pride in your ability to shoot in the ten ring. Then you qualify it by saying that you only shoot in the ten ring with certain guns. This is a fantastic chance to fix a deficiency in your shooting skills. It isn't the gun's fault you aren't getting ten ring hits. Swallow the pride that you have been nurturing for 30 years, step out of your comfort zone, and fix the problem. You're being handed an opportunity and you are not rising to the challenge. Improve your ability to shoot.

It's easy to get comfortable with certain guns, and a shooting routine. Especially if it's the way you've been doing things for years. If you don't step out of your comfort zone once and awhile you will never get any better, only maintain your preconceived opinion of yourself as a ten ring kind of guy. A lot of people pay goodly sums of money to have professional instructors take them out of their comfort zones to improve their skills. Even shooters with 30 years of experience. Don't let a particular kind of gun be a crutch.

This is just my opinion and I could be dead wrong. We all have an image of ourselves as capable shooters. Especially when it comes to something as important as the ability to defend ourselves, we like to be secure in the knowledge that if SHTF, we will be able to hold our own. I personally feel the need to test this perception of myself whenever possible, because I really don't want to find out how mistaken I was at the worst possible time. This Glock that you are coming to dispise may be a blessing in a plastic casing. Instead of talking about what a piece of junk this plastic gun is, make it work. When you get the hang of it, and have worked out the bugs, then feel free to make as much fun of it as you want.

This just makes me think about a basic combative pistol class I attended that was being hosted by a Marine that was also a pistol instructor/competition shooter with over 20 years of experience, that had his whole world shattered over a two day period because the class took him way out of his comfort zone. In the end he improved his shooting skills, percieved shooting in a new way, and found that no matter how good you are there is always a new challenge.

I apologize if I am out of line or sound abbrasive in this post. It is not meant to be mean spirited. I see a genuine opportunity here for you and hope you rise to the occasion. Best of luck, and know that I will be out on the range today pushing my limits as well. When I start to feel comfortable I know I could be doing something better/different/faster what ever. For example, hits in the ten ring mean that you could be shooting faster.

Best wishes,
2IDdoc



You make a very interesting point. I think we could sum it all up by saying, "Man up and figure it out". I actually agree with you on pretty much every point. I am just losing my patience with this damn thing. I think before I lay any cash out on the new weapon I owe it to myself to throw another 500 rounds at some targets and try to approach this a few more ways. I am keeping the gun no matter what, so eventually I WILL figure out this puzzle, just not sure how much longer I want to wait. Its like a rubiks cube....couldnt figure it out as a kid, eventually stopped caring and moved on to other challenges. I suppose you are right though....this is a good opportunity to learn something new. I guess another time around the track is in order.

Sometimes I still need a good kick in the ass...perhaps I will hit the range again this weekend.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:37:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
I'm still trying to figure out why someone would carry a gun they couldn't shoot with?



Your post reminds me of every guy on the range who blamed their lack of marksmanship on the weapon they were behind. Its the person behind the trigger that determines where that bullet hits. Any lack of marksmanship can be blamed on the shooter. There are certainly elements of some guns that make that job harder, for sure. For instance, I am no fan of DA/SA weapons like the M9. I don't blame my misses on the gun, though, and a"gun you can't shoot with" is not the guns fault, generally speaking. The Glock may not be a target shooter, but basic technique problems like pulling shots to one side or the other are not the guns fault.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:38:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macro:
I am not getting rid of the G22, I fully plan to keep it and continue to shoot it.
Other than not liking the trigger, its a great gun. Never jammed, never failed in any way, and hasnt even blown up in my hand! It has been perfectly reliable....I just dont like the groups I shoot with it.


I assume that you have mastered trigger reset, then?
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:39:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By w4klr:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
You are blaming the gun for your personal marksmanship deficiencies? Instead of replacing the gun, get a range session or two in with someone who can evaluate what you are doing wrong with the Glock.



Holy thread reader Batman!


Originally Posted by macro:
I am tired of trying to figure this Glock thing out. Tonight I asked someone else at the range to take a few shots, just so I could see if it was the gun or me. Its me.



I read that. What he posted elimnates the gun as the source of the problem; now he needs to have an instructor on his shoulder to evaluate HIM for HIS errors.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:42:11 AM EDT
Might just be a grip size/ shape thing. It doesn't fit you right obviously. I like my USP and find the recoil very mangable. Or perhaps a Sig might fit the requirements.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:43:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 5:45:17 AM EDT by rpd_fire]
Before you give up on plastic try a Springfield XD. Points like a 1911. Double diget rounds, both capacity and size. If I do my part, it will hit the 7 to 10 ring every time at 25yrds. A friend can hit the 9,10 ring every time with this gun.
XD40 service
Don't let the Glock color your judgement. I hated mine. Couldn't hit a barn from the inside. Grip angle felt wrong,ect.
I'm not bashing this is a personal experience.


edit dam I type slow
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:43:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:46:55 AM EDT
Right on Macro! Sorry if I sounded like a jerk, I really didn't mean to. I re-read my post and thought, damn, that was pretty harsh. You seem like a good guy, and I was only trying to be productive.

When I got my first Glock I blamed the pistol for mistakes I made too. I took my G19 to a training class and was convinced that it was the small frame, and crappy trigger and all that, but after some more training with other Glocks and so on, I realized that it was me, not the pistol that was having issues. It took some time and training but I've really come a long way in working through my problems. It has really made a big difference in my confidence with my side arm. One thing that it changed in my head was making excuses for my performance. If there is a problem, I find a way to fix it even though that isn't always easy. That, and my ego gets holstered when I draw my weapon. The target will give me all the praise/criticism that I deserve. My classes taught me that in a gunfight things aren't always ideal, and sometimes you have to overcome a handicap to survive, and I have to be able to find a way to get hits no matter what the situation.

Good luck, I'm sure you will lick this thing in short order. If you have 30 years experience shooting there is probably nothing I could tell you that would help you train. I wish I could come shoot with you until this gets figured out to be honest. I bet there is a thing or two you could do to get me shooting better as well.

best wishes,
2IDdoc
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:50:16 AM EDT
Sig 229. Though 2IDdoc made a great point however sometimes certain handguns just don't fit a person's hand. While I am certainly not a Glock fan I would maybe try other models of Glocks and see how you shoot with those say a 23, or a 19. If you really get fed up get a Sig 229 best damn .40cal on the market.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:53:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
I have had a personally owned P220 and a P226, and now carry a P229 on the job. Sig triggers suck.

Your kidding? Mine is like butter and hasn't been modified. Of all the DA/SA pistols that I have shot (Sig, S&W, HK, Ruger, Taurus, Berreta) the Sig by far has the best stock trigger.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:54:21 AM EDT
Give it to me if you don't want it!
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:06:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By dport:
I'm still trying to figure out why someone would carry a gun they couldn't shoot with?



Your post reminds me of every guy on the range who blamed their lack of marksmanship on the weapon they were behind. Its the person behind the trigger that determines where that bullet hits. Any lack of marksmanship can be blamed on the shooter. There are certainly elements of some guns that make that job harder, for sure. For instance, I am no fan of DA/SA weapons like the M9. I don't blame my misses on the gun, though, and a"gun you can't shoot with" is not the guns fault, generally speaking. The Glock may not be a target shooter, but basic technique problems like pulling shots to one side or the other are not the guns fault.



If you read what I posted, over and over again, you will see I am not blaming the weapon. I stated clearly that it is something to do with me not mastering a Glock. I never said I wasnt the problem, just that I am tired of trying to figure the glock trigger out.

Also, regarding this statement: "I'm still trying to figure out why someone would carry a gun they couldn't shoot with"

Who said I couldnt shoot with it?
I can put 95 out of 100 shots in a 3-4" group at 10 yards, which I think is sufficient for a carry weapon. The issue I post about is related to me wanting to tune that down to 1-2" groups....and I havent been able to do it. There is a big difference between being happy with hitting center mass and being able to hit shell casings from 10 yards away at will. I like to shoot shell casings.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:06:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 50cal:
SIG's are heavy mothers to use as carry pistols.



Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:08:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FooDog:

Originally Posted By 50cal:
SIG's are heavy mothers to use as carry pistols.




+1 I carry a Stainless 229 around all day. If the weight is an issue with you than you are a pussy.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:08:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By macro:
I am not getting rid of the G22, I fully plan to keep it and continue to shoot it.
Other than not liking the trigger, its a great gun. Never jammed, never failed in any way, and hasnt even blown up in my hand! It has been perfectly reliable....I just dont like the groups I shoot with it.


I assume that you have mastered trigger reset, then?



Got the trigger reset thing down...but I feel like I have to exert too much effort to keep it in place and I dont like the feel of it. I suppose in the final analysis I simply prefer double-action. I prefer a light crisp trigger that is already locked in position, where I dont need to exert force to keep the disconnector just on the point of release.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:11:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
You are blaming the gun for your personal marksmanship deficiencies? Instead of replacing the gun, get a range session or two in with someone who can evaluate what you are doing wrong with the Glock.



+1


I personally have never owned a Glock and I LOVE my SIG 239 9mm for summer carry. But, just a couple of days ago my wife decided she was ready to get her carry permit. We went to my regular gunstore and he had a Glock 26 9mm ( subcompact ) and once she put it in her hand she fell in love with it.

After owning the pistol for less than 48 hours she scored a 100% in the shooting portion of her carry class.

Her itty bitty Glock is dead on from 9 to 45 feet and she is very confident in it.


Have you ever let others shoot it to see if they can group it better? I would blame your shooting before I personally would blame the handgun.


LB
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:14:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
You are blaming the gun for your personal marksmanship deficiencies? Instead of replacing the gun, get a range session or two in with someone who can evaluate what you are doing wrong with the Glock.



+1


I personally have never owned a Glock and I LOVE my SIG 239 9mm for summer carry. But, just a couple of days ago my wife decided she was ready to get her carry permit. We went to my regular gunstore and he had a Glock 26 9mm ( subcompact ) and once she put it in her hand she fell in love with it.

After owning the pistol for less than 48 hours she scored a 100% in the shooting portion of her carry class.

Her itty bitty Glock is dead on from 9 to 45 feet and she is very confident in it.


Have you ever let others shoot it to see if they can group it better? I would blame your shooting before I personally would blame the handgun.


LB




[sigh] Please try reading through the thread, then see if your question makes sense, ok?
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:16:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macro:
Who said I couldnt shoot with it?


Basically, you did. You ARE looking for another gun because you aren't happy with the way you shoot that gun. I would never carry a gun that I'm not happy with the way I shoot it.

I can put 95 out of 100 shots in a 3-4" group at 10 yards, which I think is sufficient for a carry weapon.

Then why are you looking for another gun if you're not happy?

The issue I post about is related to me wanting to tune that down to 1-2" groups....and I havent been able to do it. There is a big difference between being happy with hitting center mass and being able to hit shell casings from 10 yards away at will. I like to shoot shell casings.

Then why are you looking for another carry gun if you consider your current performance good enough. The key is you don't think it's good enough. And you say so yourself.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:21:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By dport:
I'm still trying to figure out why someone would carry a gun they couldn't shoot with?



Your post reminds me of every guy on the range who blamed their lack of marksmanship on the weapon they were behind. Its the person behind the trigger that determines where that bullet hits. Any lack of marksmanship can be blamed on the shooter. There are certainly elements of some guns that make that job harder, for sure. For instance, I am no fan of DA/SA weapons like the M9. I don't blame my misses on the gun, though, and a"gun you can't shoot with" is not the guns fault, generally speaking. The Glock may not be a target shooter, but basic technique problems like pulling shots to one side or the other are not the guns fault.


I'm not sure why you are equating my post with blaming a gun. I shoot very well with a Glock. Very well with the M9. Very well with the M11. And I could hold my own with an old S&W revolver. I probably shoot the best with a FiveseveN. Then I bought a 1911. For some reason I couldn't get the hang of it right away, and didn't have the desire to master it. It wasn't the gun, it was me.

Still, if I would not put it in my defensive rotation until I was comfortable with it.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:25:29 AM EDT
This is my OPINION......
for a CCW sidearm, your main concern is the COM, NOT THE 10 RING!

I hear/ see this all the time. I am in no shape an instructor nor anything similar, just a guy with good common sense. I have 3 Glocks. I just traded a G22 for a G36. My G22 would keep 2" groups at 15 yards ALL DAY LONG! This is when I was "target" shooting.
Now when I would do "2 and 1" drills, I would have 2 good hits in the com and 1 in the hat rack. EVERYTIME!!

3-8 inch groups. What is the problem? I dont think anyone has noted this so far.
If you are taget shooting get a target gun , if you are trying to drfend yourself with the Glock, you ARE doing just fine.

just my .02 cents
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:28:28 AM EDT


I can put 95 out of 100 shots in a 3-4" group at 10 yards, which I think is sufficient for a carry weapon.



The issue I post about is related to me wanting to tune that down to 1-2" groups....and I havent been able to do it. There is a big difference between being happy with hitting center mass and being able to hit shell casings from 10 yards away at will. I like to shoot shell casings.


You know, these two posts expose some thought processes that a self-defense shooting is an exercise in target shooting.

While any realistic practice and familiarization is certainly good when it comes down to an actual shooting incident, expecting that you'll be holding 1 or 2 " groups when the adrenaline dumps is unrealistic.

I would be curious to see what sort of shooting drills we are talking about, and if there is any sort of sense of reality to them or if its all slowfire practice.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:30:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Outsider_10fp:
This is my OPINION......
for a CCW sidearm, your main concern is the COM, NOT THE 10 RING!

I hear/ see this all the time. I am in no shape an instructor nor anything similar, just a guy with good common sense. I have 3 Glocks. I just traded a G22 for a G36. My G22 would keep 2" groups at 15 yards ALL DAY LONG! This is when I was "target" shooting.
Now when I would do "2 and 1" drills, I would have 2 good hits in the com and 1 in the hat rack. EVERYTIME!!

3-8 inch groups. What is the problem? I dont think anyone has noted this so far.
If you are taget shooting get a target gun , if you are trying to drfend yourself with the Glock, you ARE doing just fine.

just my .02 cents

also a good point.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:34:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 6:35:09 AM EDT by macro]
Just to clarify my position here...


Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By macro:
Who said I couldnt shoot with it?


Basically, you did. You ARE looking for another gun because you aren't happy with the way you shoot that gun. I would never carry a gun that I'm not happy with the way I shoot it.

I have no plan to get rid of the G22, and will probably still carry it for certain things. In some situations it is still a good tool for the job. It doesnt do all the things I would like it to do and if I am going to buy another handgun, I would prefer it were geared toward carry....I have enough special purpose toys. I want an all around weapon I can use for carry or for target shooting. As I said, there is a difference between being proficient and being a crack shot. I am proficient enough with the G22, but if another CCW is more comfortable to me, then I might want to shop around.




I can put 95 out of 100 shots in a 3-4" group at 10 yards, which I think is sufficient for a carry weapon.

Then why are you looking for another gun if you're not happy?

Because sometimes I want to do other things with my carry weapon besides just carry it. If I am shooting at targets with it, I like to be able to shoot tight groups. I realize that 1" groups arent neccesary for a defensive weapon...but sometimes its nice to be able to hit a small target. Imnot completely 'unhappy' with the G22, just know I do much better with other weapons. Problem is, those other weapons dont lend themself to being carried conveniently. Let not pretend that a custom 1911 wont outshoot a factory combat weapon, in the right hands. Some things just are made to carry. I would like something that is reasonably well suited for both jobs.


The issue I post about is related to me wanting to tune that down to 1-2" groups....and I havent been able to do it. There is a big difference between being happy with hitting center mass and being able to hit shell casings from 10 yards away at will. I like to shoot shell casings.

Then why are you looking for another carry gun if you consider your current performance good enough. The key is you don't think it's good enough. And you say so yourself.




See above - the current performance is more than sufficient for killing an attacker. The thing is, I dont kill a lot of attackers, most of the time I just shoot at circles printed in ink on paper...and I think that there might be other weapons that could perform that task better.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:40:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Outsider_10fp:
This is my OPINION......
for a CCW sidearm, your main concern is the COM, NOT THE 10 RING!

I hear/ see this all the time. I am in no shape an instructor nor anything similar, just a guy with good common sense. I have 3 Glocks. I just traded a G22 for a G36. My G22 would keep 2" groups at 15 yards ALL DAY LONG! This is when I was "target" shooting.
Now when I would do "2 and 1" drills, I would have 2 good hits in the com and 1 in the hat rack. EVERYTIME!!

3-8 inch groups. What is the problem? I dont think anyone has noted this so far.
If you are taget shooting get a target gun , if you are trying to drfend yourself with the Glock, you ARE doing just fine.

just my .02 cents




Agreed on all points. Perhaps I am asking too much from my CCW.
I know the gun is more accurate than I have been with it, but my expectation might be a bit lofty as well. I purposely stayed away from any custom work on this gun as I dont like anything I carry for defense non standard. My G22 has never skipped a beat, and I have no doubt that it would perform if I ever called on it to. Mayeb I need to go back to shooting sillouttes and practicing doubletaps instead of trying to bulseye shoot with my CCW.

You make a good point.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:43:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By macro:
I am not getting rid of the G22, I fully plan to keep it and continue to shoot it.
Other than not liking the trigger, its a great gun. Never jammed, never failed in any way, and hasnt even blown up in my hand! It has been perfectly reliable....I just dont like the groups I shoot with it.


I assume that you have mastered trigger reset, then?



He's apparently mastered nothing. The key to shooting anything-pistol, rifle, or shotgun, is consistency. You've got to do the same thing every time. A Glock meets you halfway because it's mechanically the same every single time which is the same reasoning behind the 1911. What do you mean by you don't like the groups you shoot with it. It's not a target pistol, its a fucking combat handgun. If you can hit a paper plate every time out to 30 yards you are good to go.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:53:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:54:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By FooDog:

Originally Posted By 50cal:
SIG's are heavy mothers to use as carry pistols.




+1 I carry a Stainless 229 around all day. If the weight is an issue with you than you are a pussy.




Same here. I find that with a decent belt and holster my 229 is like buttah.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:58:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macro:

Originally Posted By Outsider_10fp:
This is my OPINION......
for a CCW sidearm, your main concern is the COM, NOT THE 10 RING!

I hear/ see this all the time. I am in no shape an instructor nor anything similar, just a guy with good common sense. I have 3 Glocks. I just traded a G22 for a G36. My G22 would keep 2" groups at 15 yards ALL DAY LONG! This is when I was "target" shooting.
Now when I would do "2 and 1" drills, I would have 2 good hits in the com and 1 in the hat rack. EVERYTIME!!

3-8 inch groups. What is the problem? I dont think anyone has noted this so far.
If you are taget shooting get a target gun , if you are trying to drfend yourself with the Glock, you ARE doing just fine.

just my .02 cents




Agreed on all points. Perhaps I am asking too much from my CCW.
I know the gun is more accurate than I have been with it, but my expectation might be a bit lofty as well. I purposely stayed away from any custom work on this gun as I dont like anything I carry for defense non standard. My G22 has never skipped a beat, and I have no doubt that it would perform if I ever called on it to. Mayeb I need to go back to shooting sillouttes and practicing doubletaps instead of trying to bulseye shoot with my CCW.

You make a good point.



I own 3 Pistols and 3 rifles.
Pistols:
G26 --- NICE CCW
G36 --- Nice CCW
G17 --- nice target gun

Rifles
AR M4gery with an A2 upper
Savage 10FP .308
I aint mentioning the other

So this is the way I look at it, ALL of my pistols are for self defense, I could car less about hitting the 10 ring, just as long as I can put down the BG I am utterly happy.

My 10FP I take out skeets at 350 meters and that equates to a GOOD head shot. I can snipe with ease if I had to. It has been on a few P-dog snipefest sessions too, again the farmer was pleased
My AR is this, 11.5" HABR, A2 upper, 6 POS stock. I have a 3 rail carry handle mount, an ATN Digi, and a Nikon 3x9x40. I can take dogs out with this too, but the lighter round makes it a bit more challenging in a cross wind. BUT at 250 + yards it is NOT the ideal rifle in wind. But still I am pleased with it's performance.
ALL of my firearms are purchased first and foremost for the SHTF. Secondly is for "plinking".
If I wanted to get into comps, I would buy a different breed of firearm, or different ammo, or perhaps better glass.

In a Nutshell, I think you are trying to take a soccorball to play hoops with, go get a basketball and play "21". Or go to the feild and score a goal

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