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Posted: 2/23/2006 9:55:52 AM EDT
Let's say you're in the local Quick Stop and, all of a sudden you see a perp at the counter with a tire iron in hi/her hands, and he/she is wailing on the clerk. Oh yeah, the perp also has an accomplice standing there too.

POLL
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 9:58:18 AM EDT
Kinda depends... if I didn't see a knife or a gun, and I had a weapon, yea, I'd probably intervene.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 9:58:40 AM EDT
Unless someone was already hurt and I had a clear shot at the BG.....im staying out of it
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 9:58:48 AM EDT
causing bodily harm or death, yes.

Link Posted: 2/23/2006 9:58:58 AM EDT
I would be a good witness but if someone was about to be hurt or they came towards me. Game on.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 9:59:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
I would be a good witness but if someone was about to be hurt or they came towards me. Game on.


Same here.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 9:59:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 10:05:38 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By SIG-24-7:
Let's say you're in the local Quick Stop and, all of a sudden you see a perp at the counter with a tire iron in hi/her hands, and he/she is wailing on the clerk. Oh yeah, the perp also has an accomplice standing there too.

POLL



No. Stay out of it if possible. Try to seek an exit and get out of dodge.

When you pull out your weapon, things are going to get lethal if they haven't already.

If the bad guys start trying to kill people, then your hand is forced. Fight if you are willing to take the risk of dying for somebody else. Run if you are not.

If the bad guys come directly for you, try to get away. If you can't, fight. At that point you have no choice.

ETA -- Being heroic might seem the way to go, but in some situations pulling out your pistol and getting involved is the worst tactical option. The goal of self defense is to go home alive. Getting involved in someone else's fight can cause you to get killed.

Think long and hard about how much you are willing to risk for a perfect stranger.

There is no shame in avoiding a fight that isn't yours. After all, you are the one who bleeds if things go wrong, and it is your wife and kids that will have to bury you.

Think about that.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:00:12 AM EDT

Perps about to beat to death the clerk. Bang bang perps dead, fifty bullets in their head.

Shok
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:00:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 10:01:43 AM EDT by ASU1911]
Saw a guy shoplift a case of beer once, with his buddy covering him with a gun (or a finger made to look like a gun) in his jacket pocket. They didn't say anything, so I didn't say anything. I watched them leave. I was open carrying at the time. It was not a comfortable situation.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:01:56 AM EDT
Probably wouldn't be involved, but depends on scenario. If I have a clear shot of the perp and the victim is on the ground where I don't have to worry about hitting him, I'd probably put a few rounds in his back.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:02:00 AM EDT
Since I've been on both sides of the counter,[stupid computer]MURDER DEATH KILL MURDER DEATH KILL[/stupid computer] [jonn spartan] what the fuck is that?[/john spartan}
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:06:18 AM EDT
We went over a scenario just like this in a CCW class. About half of the class said they would intervene (shoot the perp).
Then, the istructor laid out this backstory: The perp was the father of a young girl who was fast becoming a junkie and the store clerk was a part-time dealer who sold to her. The father had been to the police and nothing had been done. He had warned the dealer earlier that day not to sell drugs to his daughter, and his daughter ended up in the hospital from an overdose that evening.

Now, not that the father isn't committing a crime or doing wrong, but wouldn't you have just a slight amount of guilty feeling if you killed a father who was trying to protect his daughter the only way he could think of at that point? The instructor's point was: You don't know what you don't know.

As for me, unless I'm 100 percent absolutely positive about the situation, or it directly affects my safety (or a loved one's safety), I'll be a very good witness for the cops...and that's all.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:07:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:11:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yankee1911:
As for me, unless I'm 100 percent absolutely positive about the situation, or it directly affects my safety (or a loved one's safety), I'll be a very good witness for the cops...and that's all.



A wise move.

If you aren't under direct threat, think long and hard about pulling out that pistol.

If someone is directly trying to kill you, then don't hesitate to waste them.

But don't be quick to get in other people's fights.

Remember that CCW holder who took on a rifle wielding psycho outside a courtroom a while back? That guy got in someone else's fight and ended up making his wife a widow. Giving your life to try and protect others is admirable, but that is an awful lot to give. Make sure you think about that in making your decision.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:12:49 AM EDT
I would bust out my kool aid and show him who the real ninjas are!!
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:14:43 AM EDT
probably shake and shit my pants
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:18:34 AM EDT
I'd call 911... I'd also make myself as small as possible and try to be a good witness. I don't think I'd do anything but that unless the bad guys started shooting. Particularly at me.

I'm not a hero.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:18:48 AM EDT
I'd at least shoot the one who is attacking - a tire iron sure can fuck somebody up. If the other guy was to try anything I guess he would get the same treatment...
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:19:35 AM EDT
They made this scenario very clear during my CCW class. Don't get invloved unless a direct threat to you or your family. Try to get away first. Only pull weapon if directly threated/life threated.

Also made the point of you usually not knowing the full story behind an altercation and getting involved as a 3rd party can get you killed, sued, etc. Not to mention police responding to scene and finding the original victem shot, the perp gone and you standing there with a gun.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:20:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
I would be a good witness but if someone was about to be hurt or they came towards me. Game on.



Yup...that's about right.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:21:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yankee1911:
We went over a scenario just like this in a CCW class. About half of the class said they would intervene (shoot the perp).
Then, the istructor laid out this backstory: The perp was the father of a young girl who was fast becoming a junkie and the store clerk was a part-time dealer who sold to her. The father had been to the police and nothing had been done. He had warned the dealer earlier that day not to sell drugs to his daughter, and his daughter ended up in the hospital from an overdose that evening.

Now, not that the father isn't committing a crime or doing wrong, but wouldn't you have just a slight amount of guilty feeling if you killed a father who was trying to protect his daughter the only way he could think of at that point? The instructor's point was: You don't know what you don't know.

As for me, unless I'm 100 percent absolutely positive about the situation, or it directly affects my safety (or a loved one's safety), I'll be a very good witness for the cops...and that's all.



Your point is understood, but I think that we're more likely to encounter a situation where the guy beating the shit out of someone with a tire iron is the bad guy rather than the other way around. If not, then well I guess he probably shouldn't be BEATING SOMEONE TO DEATH.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:21:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 10:22:51 AM EDT by Thuban]

Originally Posted By LWilde:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
I would be a good witness but if someone was about to be hurt or they came towards me. Game on.



Yup...that's about right.



+ Whatever.

I wouldn't use force unless there was real danger of "serious bodily harm" to some innocent party. If there was then, armed or not, I'm in the fight on the side of the good guys.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:22:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Yankee1911:
As for me, unless I'm 100 percent absolutely positive about the situation, or it directly affects my safety (or a loved one's safety), I'll be a very good witness for the cops...and that's all.



A wise move.

If you aren't under direct threat, think long and hard about pulling out that pistol.

If someone is directly trying to kill you, then don't hesitate to waste them.

But don't be quick to get in other people's fights.

Remember that CCW holder who took on a rifle wielding psycho outside a courtroom a while back? That guy got in someone else's fight and ended up making his wife a widow. Giving your life to try and protect others is admirable, but that is an awful lot to give. Make sure you think about that in making your decision.



+87billion
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:23:47 AM EDT
b

Originally Posted By Yankee1911:
We went over a scenario just like this in a CCW class. About half of the class said they would intervene (shoot the perp).
Then, the istructor laid out this backstory: The perp was the father of a young girl who was fast becoming a junkie and the store clerk was a part-time dealer who sold to her. The father had been to the police and nothing had been done. He had warned the dealer earlier that day not to sell drugs to his daughter, and his daughter ended up in the hospital from an overdose that evening.

Now, not that the father isn't committing a crime or doing wrong, but wouldn't you have just a slight amount of guilty feeling if you killed a father who was trying to protect his daughter the only way he could think of at that point? The instructor's point was: You don't know what you don't know.

As for me, unless I'm 100 percent absolutely positive about the situation, or it directly affects my safety (or a loved one's safety), I'll be a very good witness for the cops...and that's all.



It doesn't matter to me WHAT his justification may be...if he is trying to kill someone, he is trying to kill someone. Trying to kill someone is a justification for the use of lethal force.

Personally, I would make every effort to escape and /or evade the perps...until they begin to kill someone....then I'm sorry to say...I'd likely have to get involved.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:26:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yankee1911:
We went over a scenario just like this in a CCW class. About half of the class said they would intervene (shoot the perp).
Then, the istructor laid out this backstory: The perp was the father of a young girl who was fast becoming a junkie and the store clerk was a part-time dealer who sold to her. The father had been to the police and nothing had been done. He had warned the dealer earlier that day not to sell drugs to his daughter, and his daughter ended up in the hospital from an overdose that evening.

Now, not that the father isn't committing a crime or doing wrong, but wouldn't you have just a slight amount of guilty feeling if you killed a father who was trying to protect his daughter the only way he could think of at that point? The instructor's point was: You don't know what you don't know.

As for me, unless I'm 100 percent absolutely positive about the situation, or it directly affects my safety (or a loved one's safety), I'll be a very good witness for the cops...and that's all.



And let's say that the clerk was selling drugs to pay for a kidney transplant for his baby girl...

That's a bullshit scenario and the instructor who gave it is a fucking idiot. I'm not going to stand idly by and let someone get murdered in front of me, regardless of whether or not they "had it coming".

If I was in a convenience store and I saw a someone robbing the place with a gun or attacking the clerk with a weapon then I would absolutely intervene, and I'd do it for 3 reasons:

1. As I already stated, I will not allow someone to be murdered right in front of me while I stand idly by. Especially not if I am armed.

2. Seeing a robber pull a weapon on a checkout person is all the legal justification you need to deduce that there is imminent danger of someone being killed if you do not intervene.

3. What makes you think the robber is going to leave any witnesses? And if you intend to defend yourself if the robber turns to you after murdering the clerk, then why would you not intervene to save the life of another person?

Ain't no point in carrying a gun if you're not going to use it when the time comes...and I ain't about to let a legal shooting walk out the front door with the contents of the cash register!
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:26:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mattman42:

Originally Posted By Yankee1911:
We went over a scenario just like this in a CCW class. About half of the class said they would intervene (shoot the perp).
Then, the istructor laid out this backstory: The perp was the father of a young girl who was fast becoming a junkie and the store clerk was a part-time dealer who sold to her. The father had been to the police and nothing had been done. He had warned the dealer earlier that day not to sell drugs to his daughter, and his daughter ended up in the hospital from an overdose that evening.

Now, not that the father isn't committing a crime or doing wrong, but wouldn't you have just a slight amount of guilty feeling if you killed a father who was trying to protect his daughter the only way he could think of at that point? The instructor's point was: You don't know what you don't know.

As for me, unless I'm 100 percent absolutely positive about the situation, or it directly affects my safety (or a loved one's safety), I'll be a very good witness for the cops...and that's all.



Your point is understood, but I think that we're more likely to encounter a situation where the guy beating the shit out of someone with a tire iron is the bad guy rather than the other way around. If not, then well I guess he probably shouldn't be BEATING SOMEONE TO DEATH.



It's your call.
I ain't a cop and I have no desire to play one.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:34:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Yankee1911:
We went over a scenario just like this in a CCW class. About half of the class said they would intervene (shoot the perp).
Then, the istructor laid out this backstory: The perp was the father of a young girl who was fast becoming a junkie and the store clerk was a part-time dealer who sold to her. The father had been to the police and nothing had been done. He had warned the dealer earlier that day not to sell drugs to his daughter, and his daughter ended up in the hospital from an overdose that evening.

Now, not that the father isn't committing a crime or doing wrong, but wouldn't you have just a slight amount of guilty feeling if you killed a father who was trying to protect his daughter the only way he could think of at that point? The instructor's point was: You don't know what you don't know.

As for me, unless I'm 100 percent absolutely positive about the situation, or it directly affects my safety (or a loved one's safety), I'll be a very good witness for the cops...and that's all.



And let's say that the clerk was selling drugs to pay for a kidney transplant for his baby girl...

That's a bullshit scenario and the instructor who gave it is a fucking idiot. I'm not going to stand idly by and let someone get murdered in front of me, regardless of whether or not they "had it coming".

If I was in a convenience store and I saw a someone robbing the place with a gun or attacking the clerk with a weapon then I would absolutely intervene, and I'd do it for 3 reasons:

1. As I already stated, I will not allow someone to be murdered right in front of me while I stand idly by. Especially not if I am armed.

2. Seeing a robber pull a weapon on a checkout person is all the legal justification you need to deduce that there is imminent danger of someone being killed if you do not intervene.

3. What makes you think the robber is going to leave any witnesses? And if you intend to defend yourself if the robber turns to you after murdering the clerk, then why would you not intervene to save the life of another person?

Ain't no point in carrying a gun if you're not going to use it when the time comes...and I ain't about to let a legal shooting walk out the front door with the contents of the cash register!



I'd like to reinforce the "you don't know what you don't know" idea.

I had a CCW instructor relate a story about an off duty cop that was in line at the bank with his son. The guy in front of him walks up to the teller and says "this is a stick up". Cop draws his gun and says "This is the police, put down your weapon..." And the robber's accomplice who was standing behind, watching it all, pulls his gun and shoots the cop in the head, killing him. In front of his son no less.

In SIG-24-7's scenario, unless there is NOBODY else in the store but you, the clerk and the bad guys... you don't know what you don't know.

I don't mean to start an argument here because there are a lot of people on both sides of this issue. I remember a thread that went on for pages and pages here on Arfcom a couple years ago about a robbery... Someone tried to take me to task for my "be a good witness" stance... *shrug*
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:36:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Thuban:

Originally Posted By LWilde:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
I would be a good witness but if someone was about to be hurt or they came towards me. Game on.



Yup...that's about right.



+ Whatever.

I wouldn't use force unless there was real danger of "serious bodily harm" to some innocent party. If there was then, armed or not, I'm in the fight on the side of the good guys.




+1

I hope a good samaritan would intervene if a thug was in the process of beating me to death.

Another question. How many people here would use lethal force to protect property but not use lethal force to save the life of a clerk?

Shok
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:45:16 AM EDT
there is a gas station about 100yds from my condo. i've been going there for about 8 years, and know all the employees on a first-name, "how did your wife's surgery go?" basis. they have my mobile number on the speed dial as an armed responder.

and yes, i have shown up armed to several calls. never had to "draw down", but have pulled into the 1st parking space with the shotty under a blanket while waiting for suspicious groups to finish their purchases and leave the store. i assume that the presence of a witness in a running car, with mobile phone on the dashboard, is enough to deter any misbehavior.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:48:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 10:48:52 AM EDT by Dusty_C]

Originally Posted By sirensong:
there is a gas station about 100yds from my condo. i've been going there for about 8 years, and know all the employees on a first-name, "how did your wife's surgery go?" basis. they have my mobile number on the speed dial as an armed responder.

and yes, i have shown up armed to several calls. never had to "draw down", but have pulled into the 1st parking space with the shotty under a blanket while waiting for suspicious groups to finish their purchases and leave the store. i assume that the presence of a witness in a running car, with mobile phone on the dashboard, is enough to deter any misbehavior.

your an idiot. If they call you, and you show up armed, and do something, your going to prison for a very long time.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:51:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
I would be a good witness but if someone was about to be hurt or they came towards me. Game on.



Yep, +1. I'm not going to put myself in a situation where I might have to put someone in the ground just over a quicky-mart cash till.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:57:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By sirensong:
there is a gas station about 100yds from my condo. i've been going there for about 8 years, and know all the employees on a first-name, "how did your wife's surgery go?" basis. they have my mobile number on the speed dial as an armed responder.

and yes, i have shown up armed to several calls. never had to "draw down", but have pulled into the 1st parking space with the shotty under a blanket while waiting for suspicious groups to finish their purchases and leave the store. i assume that the presence of a witness in a running car, with mobile phone on the dashboard, is enough to deter any misbehavior.

your an idiot. If they call you, and you show up armed, and do something, your going to prison for a very long time.



Yeah, it might be easier to lie a little bit and say "I just happened to be there and so-and-so was robbing the place"... Just some advice sirensong, stick with that story.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:59:13 AM EDT
That still aint gonna explain the shot gun under the towel. Not to mention the tapes will show a call other than the 911 call. Phone records will be retrieved, they will see to whose phone it was, they will make the connection and he will be raped in prison.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:59:16 AM EDT
Not unless I was in very close proximity to the BG, or he was blocking my immediate exit.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:02:23 AM EDT
The two time I have experienced this situation cannot be compared, because both were situationally different.

The first time I was on a beer run, I had been drinking already, and I drove the 1 neighborhood block distance to the cornerstore. I left my revolver at home because a) I had been drinking and probably shouldn't have been driving no matter how short the distance and b) I had been drinking so i though 'what's gonna hapen in the next ten minutes?'
Sam, the clerk at the store, and always talked when I stopped in, I said hi, told him I was on a beer run, he laughed and said 'have one for me'. I went to the cooler and began looking through the glass door on the bottom shelf at the born on dates of the bud light 12 packs. While I was stooped over a kid came into the store wearing a hoodie with his hand in the front pocket he told Sam to give him all the money in the register or he'd shoot. I stood up and looked over the aisle of chips that had conveniently hidden me from view. While Sam was trying to stay calm and open the register I had a first time experience. I've always heard about people suddenly losing their buzz in a scary or intense situation, I guess I've always been completely drunk if I was around during one of those moments, so I never experienced the instant buzz kill. But I felt it now. When I think back on it, I try to figure out why i did what I did next, Sam was doing fine getting the money in a bag, his hands were shaking and he was definitely fearing for his life, and I think we were both thinking 'give him what he wants and he'll leave' but Ialso thought 'if this kid is planning on hurting Sam, I should stop him'. I walked up behing kid in the hoodie as quietly as I could, when i was about an arms length away behind the guy( I remember almost laughing out loud while standing there because the plan i had come up with was usually used as a juvenille prank) I stepped on the back of his knee which caused him to fall forward, while he was off balance I put my hand on the back of his head, stepped forward and drove his face into the counter as hard and fast as i could. He bounced off of the counter and landed on his back, it was then that I realized that the bridge of his nose had made perfect contact with the egde of the counter, his face looked like a salmon filet...and there was blood, lots of blood. I proceeded to scream and yell at him to put down his gun, tell me where the gun is...blah blah blah, he put his hand up and said 'i don't have a gun, I swear, please don't hurt me'
I asked Sam if he was ok, he nodded his head, he was having trouble speaking. I told him to call the cops since i also had left my cell phone at home. We sat there and waited on the local PD, they took a written statement from Sam, and asked me a few questions (Why were you here? What is your relationship with the clerk? Did you know the perp? etc. etc.) and then left with kid in the hoodie with a now taped up face and some new bracelets. But aside from taking my name and DL number I was not asked to give written statement, and was allowed to leave.
I went home, told my buddies what had happened when they asked 'Where the hell have you been? and why didn't you bring back any beer?' I then gave the beer run money to someone else and told them to go to a different store.


The second was was just last month. I had to work late, there is a Dollar General across the street. I went in to get a soda, when i walk in I see two clerks and one person by the checkout counter. One of the clerks starts yelling 'I can't breathe, I can't breathe' and then she collapses. I ran to her and caught her before she went all the way over. I was trying to get my cell phone out of my pocket but was having difficulty so I told the other clerk to call 911...she handed me the phone. As soon as i said 911 the person at the checkout counter said 'I'm outta here' and ran out the door. I got a dispatcher on the phone and said I needed an ambulance, she asked me for the address, I told her I didn't know it, the one clerk I was holding couldn't speak, and the other one wasn't much help, fortunately dispatch said they had my location ( I guess they can trace a call pretty quick) Dispatch asked if the lady was injured I told her I couldn't see any injuries and that I had just walked in and had no idea what had happened, that's when the other clerk told me that the person who just ran out of the store was trying to rob them. I then asked for the police as well. The cops showed up 4 minutes later, closely followed by EMT. Once the police were on scene they started gathering the story from us. A girl who saw what had happened from the begginning came forward, she had been hiding in one of the aisles, and said she was scared to call 911, she didn't want to make any noise so she wouldn't be discovered. I got a call the next day from the detective on the scene that they had caught the person trying to rob the store, she was using a cheap folding knife as her weapon of fear, and he thanked me for my help.

So, I tend to stick my nose where it doesn't belong. In my defense, I unknowingly walked into both situations. I never go looking for trouble, I just seem to find it with little effort.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:05:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By sirensong:
there is a gas station about 100yds from my condo. i've been going there for about 8 years, and know all the employees on a first-name, "how did your wife's surgery go?" basis. they have my mobile number on the speed dial as an armed responder.

and yes, i have shown up armed to several calls. never had to "draw down", but have pulled into the 1st parking space with the shotty under a blanket while waiting for suspicious groups to finish their purchases and leave the store. i assume that the presence of a witness in a running car, with mobile phone on the dashboard, is enough to deter any misbehavior.

your an idiot. If they call you, and you show up armed, and do something, your going to prison for a very long time.



I agree. If they need to call someone then let them call the cops.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:10:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 11:12:41 AM EDT by Boom_Stick]
If the clerk was compliant but getting seriously harmed (especially female) then I'd intervene.

If there is a way out I'll take it and keep a safe observable distance and call 911 on the cell. If I cant get out then I'll take cover as far away from the action as I can with pistol ready, cause if they come at me after they rob the clerk I'm gonna unleash hell. I've got 16 in the gun and 30 on tap.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:11:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
That still aint gonna explain the shot gun under the towel. Not to mention the tapes will show a call other than the 911 call. Phone records will be retrieved, they will see to whose phone it was, they will make the connection and he will be raped in prison.



True.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:12:15 AM EDT
What's that quote? "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing"...something like that.
I guess I'd get involved. Don't know why, guess it's my nature. Sure, maybe the badguy would just take the money and run. This time. What about next time? Maybe he decides to shoot everyone for shits and giggles and instead of me being in there it's my wife and daughters. You can't turn back time and say "If only I would of.............."
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:15:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 11:20:06 AM EDT by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By macman37:

I'd like to reinforce the "you don't know what you don't know" idea.

I had a CCW instructor relate a story about an off duty cop that was in line at the bank with his son. The guy in front of him walks up to the teller and says "this is a stick up". Cop draws his gun and says "This is the police, put down your weapon..." And the robber's accomplice who was standing behind, watching it all, pulls his gun and shoots the cop in the head, killing him. In front of his son no less.

In SIG-24-7's scenario, unless there is NOBODY else in the store but you, the clerk and the bad guys... you don't know what you don't know.

I don't mean to start an argument here because there are a lot of people on both sides of this issue. I remember a thread that went on for pages and pages here on Arfcom a couple years ago about a robbery... Someone tried to take me to task for my "be a good witness" stance... *shrug*



Everyone is going to have to decide how they are going to deal with these types of situations if they are going to carry a gun, and you have to decide to do what you think is best.

I don't want to have to look someone's widow, or mother, or orphan in the eye and testify that I saw the man who killed their loved one...and hid with my pistol as he walked out the front door.

I'm no cop and I'm not pretending that carrying a gun makes me one. But store robberies are dangerous business and people die over the cash register all the time. If I were in the situation I would not let someone be murdered infront of me and I'm not going to abandon someone else to certain death.

I realize that I'd be putting myself at risk in the process and that I could get myself killed.

This is all academic though anyways. I'm not lucky enough to be able to interrupt an armed robbery.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:17:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:19:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mattman42:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
That still aint gonna explain the shot gun under the towel. Not to mention the tapes will show a call other than the 911 call. Phone records will be retrieved, they will see to whose phone it was, they will make the connection and he will be raped in prison.



True.

[beckett] What I know about this place son, is because I'm here[/beckett]

I had to "Council" one of my employees on this once when IN FRONT OF A COP she said that since I lived so close to the store she was calling me if they got robbed. Dumb ass girl.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:20:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By sirensong:
there is a gas station about 100yds from my condo. i've been going there for about 8 years, and know all the employees on a first-name, "how did your wife's surgery go?" basis. they have my mobile number on the speed dial as an armed responder.

and yes, i have shown up armed to several calls. never had to "draw down", but have pulled into the 1st parking space with the shotty under a blanket while waiting for suspicious groups to finish their purchases and leave the store. i assume that the presence of a witness in a running car, with mobile phone on the dashboard, is enough to deter any misbehavior.

your an idiot. If they call you, and you show up armed, and do something, your going to prison for a very long time.



why is that? it is legal for me to carry a long arm, and it is legal for me to be in their parking lot. if a female friend of mine calls me and says "there are some guys hanging out in front of my house. they haven't done anything yet, but can you come over and keep me company", it is perfectly normal, and legal, for me to show up armed. and if something does happen, it is perfectly legal to defend her safety and mine.

so from a legal standpoint, how is this different? the couple of times i've responded, the situation has been:

a group of 4 or more men enters the store, and behaves in such a manner that the clerk suspects that they may become dangerous. they have not done anything illegal, so a 911 call would be out of line. the late-night clerk works alone, however, and wants a friend around in the event that anything bad happens.

my SOP is to pull into the 1st space in front of the window, so that i'm clearly visible to both the clerk and anyone standing at the counter. i open my driver door, plant one foot on the ground, and watch. my mobile is on my dash, with 911 entered, but not sent. if anything violent happens, i hit 'send' and give info. the shotgun is there for me to protect myself.

however, if the life or safety of my friend is in jeapordy, i won't hesitate to use force.

what, exactly, would be the legal problem with that? remember that i live in TX.

i would hope that you would use force to defend the life of a friend.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:21:21 AM EDT
dial 911


if it appears that the clerk is suffering bodily injury then yes, I'd draw and shoot
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:21:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 11:31:51 AM EDT by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:24:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
I would be a good witness but if someone was about to be hurt or they came towards me. Game on.



Until someone is about to get hurt, 9-1-1 and be a good witness.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:35:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sirensong:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By sirensong:
there is a gas station about 100yds from my condo. i've been going there for about 8 years, and know all the employees on a first-name, "how did your wife's surgery go?" basis. they have my mobile number on the speed dial as an armed responder.

and yes, i have shown up armed to several calls. never had to "draw down", but have pulled into the 1st parking space with the shotty under a blanket while waiting for suspicious groups to finish their purchases and leave the store. i assume that the presence of a witness in a running car, with mobile phone on the dashboard, is enough to deter any misbehavior.

your an idiot. If they call you, and you show up armed, and do something, your going to prison for a very long time.



why is that? it is legal for me to carry a long arm, and it is legal for me to be in their parking lot. if a female friend of mine calls me and says "there are some guys hanging out in front of my house. they haven't done anything yet, but can you come over and keep me company", it is perfectly normal, and legal, for me to show up armed. and if something does happen, it is perfectly legal to defend her safety and mine.

so from a legal standpoint, how is this different? the couple of times i've responded, the situation has been:

a group of 4 or more men enters the store, and behaves in such a manner that the clerk suspects that they may become dangerous. they have not done anything illegal, so a 911 call would be out of line. the late-night clerk works alone, however, and wants a friend around in the event that anything bad happens.

my SOP is to pull into the 1st space in front of the window, so that i'm clearly visible to both the clerk and anyone standing at the counter. i open my driver door, plant one foot on the ground, and watch. my mobile is on my dash, with 911 entered, but not sent. if anything violent happens, i hit 'send' and give info. the shotgun is there for me to protect myself.

however, if the life or safety of my friend is in jeapordy, i won't hesitate to use force.

what, exactly, would be the legal problem with that? remember that i live in TX.

i would hope that you would use force to defend the life of a friend.



Since you put it that way, I see it differently now. What say you Dusty?
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:47:27 AM EDT
A lot of different answers posted about this topic. However, isn't it your duty (maybe even the law) to come to someone's defense if they are getting the shit beat out of them? Put yourself in the clerk's position. Let's say you live but are pretty seriously fucked up. And later on you find out one of the customers in the store had a CCW and just stood there while you were taken a beat down.

By God I'm getting involved. FUCK the perp. If he's dead from my bullets, then he can't testify in court. I like my odds of a SIG versus a tire iron.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:49:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sirensong:
there is a gas station about 100yds from my condo. i've been going there for about 8 years, and know all the employees on a first-name, "how did your wife's surgery go?" basis. they have my mobile number on the speed dial as an armed responder.

and yes, i have shown up armed to several calls. never had to "draw down", but have pulled into the 1st parking space with the shotty under a blanket while waiting for suspicious groups to finish their purchases and leave the store. i assume that the presence of a witness in a running car, with mobile phone on the dashboard, is enough to deter any misbehavior.




You must be a badass.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:50:00 AM EDT
2 to the chest
1 to the head
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:52:04 AM EDT
When will people stop using the five-choice poll?

CO
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