Quoted: Maybe the unions caused hurricane Katrina to hit the Gulf coast. Geez!

Get real dude. That was Bush's fault.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I think that management also has a large part of the blame.  Labor contracts are bilateral agreements.   If you think that, you REALLY don't understand the  process. In ANY legal agreement, coercion makes the agreement null and void. Management can say "You are fired" and then the employee goes and gets another job. But when the union says "We're walking out" the management of the company CANNOT get another business. Unions coerce management and impose their will on management with the threat of shutting down a business - which has IMMENSELY greater implications for often hundreds of thousands of people  (i.e. suppliers, vendors, business partners, bankers, investors and all the extended families of people who would be negatively affected by a business shut down) than a union member being canned for his poor performance or blackmail tactics. As I say, the union slug CAN find another job. Management CANNOT find another business. Labor contracts are ANYTHING but bilateral when a union is involved. Unions  = Marxism. That's the fact. Get off the soap box and back to reality. Do you have any expierence with organized labor yourself? You should be ashamed to post such a BS opinion and stomp around like it's based on a single fact. Then go ahead and dispute my points instead of just making assertions about ME, personally.

Dispute what? All I'm reading is a rant based on assumption and BS that has been repeated over and over by guys like you.

What personal experience are you basing this on?

I have worked union and non-union. I moved up out of the union now, but I look back on it fondly. Organized labor adds more to American society than just labor walkouts. Everything is a two way street.

How about you? If your going to take the lead in this thread and post such unsubstantiated BS I would like to know your personal experience. That doesn't sound like a fair question? I do not care what you have read, been told, or seen in the GD forum. I have to make up my mind if you’re worth debating. If you’re going to base your opinion on the old “Communist” union BS you and I are done having this conversation. Its pure BS based on tin foil hat wearing paranoid types who are probably just pissed off the union guy makes a better wage. Hell, most of you can thank organized labor for the wage you make now. Union scale sets the standard, other wise we would be nothing but another third world shit hole.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yep, unions have fought for lower production levels so their people didn't have to work as hard, and higher wages that are high enough that the big companies have to find other ways to save money (quality!) to keep their shareholders happy. union=commie You are welcome to come work in my shoes for a day. I bet you'd change your mind about not working hard. Every car that runs down that line, I'm running to work on. I don't have time to take a drink of a soda. Then your union sucks. How much have you contributed to it?

Absolutely amazing.

So when somebody with actual organized labor experience posts this is how you react? It's a damn shame.

Do yourself a favor and bow out gracefully from this thread.

Quoted: Dispute what? All I'm reading is a rant based on assumption and BS that has been repeated over and over by guys like you. What personal experience are you basing this on? I have worked union and non-union. I moved up out of the union now, but I look back on it fondly. Organized labor adds more to American society than just labor walkouts. Everything is a two way street. How about you? If your going to take the lead in this thread and post such unsubstantiated BS I would like to know your personal experience. That doesn't sound like a fair question? I do not care what you have read, been told, or seen in the GD forum. I have to make up my mind if you’re worth debating. If you’re going to base your opinion on the old “Communist” union BS you and I are done having this conversation. Its pure BS based on tin foil hat wearing paranoid types who are probably just pissed off the union guy makes a better wage. Hell, most of you can thank organized labor for the wage you make now. Union scale sets the standard, other wise we would be nothing but another third world shit hole.

No, son, you misunderstand how this works.

Ya see, I make an assertion, then you call it BS.

It is YOUR responsibility to show its BS.

It is NOT my responsibility to give you my resume, and if I don't then what I say is invalid, and your assertion is proven true. It doesn't work that way, junior.

YOU DISPROVE ME, if you think you can.

(of course, underlying all this is I know you well enuf to know that no matter HOW extensive my experience is, you'll not accept it as valid and legitimate, so I'm not inclined to waste my time providing you my bona fides. )

Quoted: Absolutely amazing. So when somebody with actual organized labor experience posts this is how you react? It's a damn shame. Do yourself a favor and bow out gracefully from this thread.

Your advice is unsolicited, and unheeded.

Totally to blame!

Name one other manufacturing industry that has it's assemblers working for $20-$40 bucks an hour and has 100% payed benefits!!

When Unions get greedy everyone gets hurt.

I am a Union memebr but am also a realist, there comes a point that it just becomes greed.

It's one thing to fight for a decent wage and benefits at contract time, it's entirely another to expect to live like royalty!

Quoted: No, son, you misunderstand how this works. Ya see, I make an assertion, then you call it BS. It is YOUR responsibility to show its BS. It is NOT my responsibility to give you my resume, and if I don't then what I say is invalid, and your assertion is proven true. It doesn't work that way, junior. YOU DISPROVE ME, if you think you can. (of course, underlying all this is I know you well enuf to know that no matter HOW extensive my experience is, you'll not accept it as valid and legitimate, so I'm not inclined to waste my time providing you my bona fides. )

This is exactly what I expected.

When push comes to shove you back away and avoid the question because you know it will destroy your credibility in the conversation. It's a smart Internet forum tactic, but still chicken shit.

I got your "Junior & Son" hanging by the way. My "Daddy" past away a few years ago. Your post count (Run up in the GD) doesn't make you "Senior" to me in the very least.

I think you spend too much time in the GD. You have become to accustomed to posting this BS without somebody taking the time to post a retort. Your luck ran out this time.

I suggest you bow out gracefully.

Quoted: This is exactly what I expected. When push comes to shove you back away and avoid the question because you know it will destroy your credibility in the conversation. It's a smart Internet forum tactic, but still chicken shit. I got your "Junior & Son" hanging by the way. My "Daddy" past away a few years ago. Your post count (Run up in the GD) doesn't make you "Senior" to me in the very least. I think you spend too much time in the GD. You have become to accustomed to posting this BS without somebody taking the time to post a retort. Your luck ran out this time. I suggest you bow out gracefully.

Whatever, junior.

Quoted: Quoted: This is exactly what I expected. When push comes to shove you back away and avoid the question because you know it will destroy your credibility in the conversation. It's a smart Internet forum tactic, but still chicken shit. I got your "Junior & Son" hanging by the way. My "Daddy" past away a few years ago. Your post count (Run up in the GD) doesn't make you "Senior" to me in the very least. I think you spend too much time in the GD. You have become to accustomed to posting this BS without somebody taking the time to post a retort. Your luck ran out this time. I suggest you bow out gracefully. Whatever, junior.

I will take that as your admission of defeat.

You could not have said it more loudly if you had posted a white flag.

You’re out of your league on this one. Like I said, your luck ran out in this thread.

“If you only knew who I am and the things I’ve done”

What a joke.

Quoted: Toyota's US plants are non-union, and they seem to be doing just fine.  What would happen if the big three closed up shop in Michigan and moved to at-will states?  Relocating factories sure won't be cheap, and Detroit will become even more of a ghetto because of it, but that may be what they need to survive.

You know that Toyotas plant are non union HOW?........btw- you are wrong

Quoted: Quoted: Whatever, junior. I will take that as your admission of defeat. You could not have said it more loudly if you had posted a white flag. You’re out of your league on this one. Like I said, your luck ran out in this thread. “If you only knew who I am and the things I’ve done” What a joke.

Take it however you like, junior. Its a free country.

While I haven't read this whole thread it's not suprising that it's turned into yet another union bashing thread...GM's situation was'nt brought on entirely by the unions, Upper mangaement is also partly to blame. Look at some of the poorly designed cars they put out in the last 10 years. Sure, the guys on the shop floor built them, but upper management ok'ed the design,and engineering, however flawed it was, so, they as just as much to blame as the unions. Factor that with the millions in salary, stock options that some of the upper mangement gets (or used to)and you have a large, poorly managed company that makes shitboxes... As was said in another thread on this same subject, The unions have to learn that the company is not their personal piggy bank, and upper managment has to learn that in order to surivive, they are going to have to build a quality built,designed, vehicle. People do not want a vehicle that is in the shop for recalls, or has the paint flaking off, or breaks down alot, or is unsafe, they want a reliable vehicle, one that they can get in and drive to point"A"  and back with very few if any problems. This reason alone is why the Japenese are where they are now. They build reliable cars, with American workers, in American plants, from American steel, at a wage as good or better than the UAW guy does. Until both party's get their collective heads out of their asses nothing will change. The UAW has to understand that things will have to change contract wise, if they want their members to keep sending them dues, Likewise GM's upper management has to understand that if they want to survive, they are going to have to improve the quality, design, engineering, of thier vehicles in short, quit building shitboxes designed to belly up at around 80,000 miles, figuring the customer is going to come back and buy another. That line of thinking alone is stupid, As most people who have had this happen to them will probably go buy a Jap car, and 200,000 problem free miles later, after it's paid off and they are still driving IT, they will buy another one of them instead.... In GM's case, there is plenty of blame to go around, trying to put it all on the Unions is idiotic, Upper management (or Mismanagement) deserves it's fair share as well.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: and let's not forget crappy engineering.  Most people have gone over to Jap/Euro cars due to quality issues, not assembly issues.   How come the Europeans and Japanese can pay their people very well and turn out a quality product, but the American companies seem to lack reliabilty??? JD Powers surveys consistently ranks most European car makers far behind most US makers in both initial and long term quality. Only Mercedes and BMW have quality that ranks above the industry median. +1 There seems to be a lot of perceptions around here, but not a lot of fact. However perception is what sells. It looks like more ratings need to be gathered when spewing out  opinions as fact. I have owned 4 different fords and 2 chevys and really haven't had a complaint about any. My neighbors Toyota seems to spend a lot of time in the shop. go figure. JD Powers only gets a passing glance from me.  Consumer Reports gets my attention.  I haven't followed the car quality issue very closely for a few years.  I switched to Toyota several years ago and every time i go to buy another vehicle, Toyota still rates at the top of the heap.   As far as some of the European cars go, I have understood that the ratings problems some of them have had is due to their willingness to use new technology which can be sometimes troubling.  I have not been aware of any mechanical reliabilty issues. It's funny how you mention perception vs. fact, then go on to say how you've not had any complaints about your american cars, but your neighbors car seems to spend a lot of time in the shop.  Your drawing your opinion from a pretty limited pool of experiences, wouldn't you say?

Don't believe I gave an opinion, just stated some facts. Something that seems to be limited around here.
Not trying to flame just to get some eyes opened.

Quoted: Don't believe I gave an opinion, just stated some facts. Something that seems to be limited around here. Not trying to flame just to get some eyes opened.

Whether you believe you gave an opinion or not is irrelevant, that is all you gave, your opinion.  Then you turn around and say that facts seem to be limited around here.  Yet, you say you are not trying to flame, just open some eyes.



You are truly hilarious.  Got news for you, just because YOU say something does not make it a fact and based on what you posted, I can't believe that you know what a fact is.

Quoted: Quoted: Don't believe I gave an opinion, just stated some facts. Something that seems to be limited around here. Not trying to flame just to get some eyes opened. Whether you believe you gave an opinion or not is irrelevant, that is all you gave, your opinion.  Then you turn around and say that facts seem to be limited around here.  Yet, you say you are not trying to flame, just open some eyes. You are truly hilarious.  Got news for you, just because YOU say something does not make it a fact and based on what you posted, I can't believe that you know what a fact is.

Thank you sir. I believe that was my point.

As for the personal attack, well reading comprehension is your friend.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Don't believe I gave an opinion, just stated some facts. Something that seems to be limited around here. Not trying to flame just to get some eyes opened. Whether you believe you gave an opinion or not is irrelevant, that is all you gave, your opinion.  Then you turn around and say that facts seem to be limited around here.  Yet, you say you are not trying to flame, just open some eyes. You are truly hilarious.  Got news for you, just because YOU say something does not make it a fact and based on what you posted, I can't believe that you know what a fact is. Thank you sir. I believe that was my point. As for the personal attack, well reading comprehension is your friend.

I think you are the one with reading comprehension difficulties, even in your own posts.  Apparently, reading comprehension is NOT your friend.  You clearly stated that you were posting fact.  See above in red.

Personal attack?  You think that was a personal attack??????????  Again.........

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Don't believe I gave an opinion, just stated some facts. Something that seems to be limited around here. Not trying to flame just to get some eyes opened. Whether you believe you gave an opinion or not is irrelevant, that is all you gave, your opinion.  Then you turn around and say that facts seem to be limited around here.  Yet, you say you are not trying to flame, just open some eyes. You are truly hilarious.  Got news for you, just because YOU say something does not make it a fact and based on what you posted, I can't believe that you know what a fact is. Thank you sir. I believe that was my point. As for the personal attack, well reading comprehension is your friend. I think you are the one with reading comprehension difficulties, even in your own posts.  Apparently, reading comprehension is NOT your friend.  You clearly stated that you were posting fact.  See above in red. Personal attack?  You think that was a personal attack??????????  Again.........

So I was.
Ownership of vehicles, observation of neighbor; however, I did not opine as to preference.

I did however, give the opinion that I thought this topic was lacking in fact or reference, for that I am truly sorry.
To believe for the sake of belief should never be questioned.