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Posted: 2/20/2006 5:14:46 PM EDT
www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/02/20/austria.irving.trial.ap/index.html

Holocaust denier: 3-year jail term
David Irving pleads guilty, concedes 'I made a mistake'

Monday, February 20, 2006; Posted: 6:31 p.m. EST (23:31 GMT)


David Irving arrives for court with a copy of his book, "Hitler's War."
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Is Austria right to have a law against Holocaust denial?
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Manage Alerts | What Is This? VIENNA, Austria (AP) -- Right-wing British historian David Irving pleaded guilty Monday to charges of denying the Holocaust and was sentenced to three years in prison after conceding he was wrong to say there were no Nazi gas chambers at the Auschwitz concentration camp.

Irving, handcuffed and wearing a navy blue suit, arrived in court carrying a copy of one of his most controversial books -- "Hitler's War," which challenges the extent of the Holocaust.

"I made a mistake when I said there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz," Irving told the court before his sentencing.

He had faced up to 10 years in prison.

Before the trial began, Irving, 67, told reporters he now acknowledges the Nazis systematically slaughtered Jews during World War II.

"History is like a constantly changing tree," he said.

Irving has been in custody since his arrest in November on charges stemming from two speeches he gave in Austria in 1989 in which he was accused of denying the Nazis' extermination of 6 million Jews.

Irving's trial comes amid new -- and fierce -- debate over freedom of expression in Europe, where the printing and reprinting of unflattering cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad has triggered violent protests worldwide.

Irving's lawyer, Elmar Kresbach, said last month the controversial Third Reich historian was getting up to 300 pieces of fan mail a week from supporters around the world, and that while in detention he was writing his memoirs under the working title "Irving's War."

Irving was arrested November 11 in the southern Austrian province of Styria on a warrant issued in 1989. He was charged under a federal law that makes it a crime to publicly diminish, deny or justify the Holocaust.

Irving had tried to win his provisional release on $24,000 bail, but a Vienna court refused, saying it considered him a flight risk.

Within two weeks of his arrest, he asserted through his lawyer that he had come to acknowledge the existence of Nazi-era gas chambers.

In the past, however, he has claimed that Adolf Hitler knew little if anything about the Holocaust, and has been quoted as saying there was "not one shred of evidence" the Nazis carried out their "Final Solution" to exterminate the Jewish population on such a massive scale.

Irving is the author of nearly 30 books, including "Hitler's War," and has contended most of those who died at concentration camps such as Auschwitz succumbed to diseases such as typhus rather than execution.

In 2000, Irving sued American Holocaust scholar Deborah Lipstadt for libel in a British court, but lost. The presiding judge in that case, Charles Gray, wrote that Irving was "an active Holocaust denier ... anti-Semitic and racist."

Irving has had numerous run-ins with the law over the years.

In 1992, a judge in Germany fined him the equivalent of $6,000 for publicly insisting the Nazi gas chambers at Auschwitz were a hoax.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 5:18:56 PM EDT
hmmmm. Thats bullshit if you ask me.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 5:26:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 5:30:51 PM EDT
hmmmm.....just another thread by a jew hater looking for other jew haters.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 5:34:28 PM EDT
He shouldn't be in jail. He should be in a gas chamber.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 5:36:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 5:36:54 PM EDT by MrClean4Hire]
He shouldn't be jailed, they should make him work a booth at auschwitz (sp?)
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 5:36:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 5:42:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
He shouldn't be in jail. He should be in a gas chamber.


But they don't exist.



That's what he thinks. He might die surprised... and a better student of history.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 5:50:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
He shouldn't be in jail. He should be in a gas chamber.


Link Posted: 2/20/2006 6:14:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 6:15:03 PM EDT by red65]
You guys are pathetic. What a bunch of dumbasses.

Ever hear of free speech? The fact that this guy is being jailed is a prime example of how fucked up Europe is. Political Correctness is their new substitute religion.

Jailing a guy for having an opinion about the holocaust is plain sickening.

Know what else? This kind of harsh action will push a lot of people into his corner. Because it is a revolting travesty of justice, and a lot of people are going to feel sorry for the guy.

This guy has the right to his opinion. He has the right to stand on the street corner with a sign saying the holocaust never happened. Another guy has the right to stand on the opposite corner and say it did happen. That's the American Way. Beautiful!!

Weren't you guys paying attention in 4th grade civics class when they explained how the Founding Fathers of our country figured out free speech is a swell idea?

I don't hate Jews at all.

My opinion is that the germans killed a great number of jews. The exact number is not known. The exact time, date, method, circumstances are not known. Now that it has become a political issue, these things will never be known.

I believe in Liberty.

Watch how many idiots chime in to say that

A.) free speech is a bad idea, and

B) that I'm a secret nazi.



This guy would be wondering what the fuck is going on.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 6:19:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 6:20:09 PM EDT by BuckeyeRifleman]
You should never be jailed for ideas, nomatter how pathetic and misguided those ideas may be.

The 1st amendment was about freedom of ideas and beliefs, it really has nothing to do to with showing porn on public access or any other such crap the left would have you believe.

That not to say this guy isnt an asshat
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 6:20:12 PM EDT
(dupe)
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 6:20:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 6:25:31 PM EDT by Zarathustra1]

Rifleman2000
He shouldn't be in jail. He should be in a gas chamber.




You advocate killing people for their thoughts?

What an ass.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 6:23:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman:
You should never be jailed for ideas, nomatter how pathetic and misguided those ideas may be.

The 1st amendment was about freedom of ideas and beliefs, it really has nothing to do to with showing porn on public access or any other such crap the left would have you believe.

That not to say this guy isnt an asshat




You don't have freedom of speech in most european countries, only have it here.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 6:38:32 PM EDT
At first view it does appear extreme,but this is Austria,home of Hitler,and the people of Europe were the ones that were actually rounded up in his madness.

I'm sure they have a little different perspective on this whole thing.

I don't think it's correct to project our values and history on this issue.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:12:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By byron2112:
At first view it does appear extreme,but this is Austria,home of Hitler,and the people of Europe were the ones that were actually rounded up in his madness.

I'm sure they have a little different perspective on this whole thing.

I don't think it's correct to project our values and history on this issue.



Bullshit raised to the 10 power.

We'd be doing those fucked up european assholes a big favor if we projected our values on them.

Their values are evil dogshit. Our values have resulted in unparalleled freedom and prosperity for 230 years.

So you're saying Freedom is conditional, depending on the circumstances? Like you should make sure nobody is upset before you speak out? You sound like a DUer to me.

Freedom is for everyone, all the time.

I doubt you really need this explained to you.

THE HOLOCAUST DID NOT HAPPEN BECAUSE OF TOO MUCH FREEDOM OF SPEECH. It happened because of not enough freedom of speech. It's sad those dizzy european fucktards cannot reel this idea in.

Who are they going to stick in jail tomorrow? Where does the evil rule of PC take us next?

PS - The Japanese killed many many more people than the Germans did. But nobody says anything because.... it isn't PC.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:31:15 PM EDT
I disagree.

In think the aim here is to never allow the legitimization of denial.

Personally,I think it's important to humanity to never forget and never be allowed to be conned into questioning if these things ever happened...it's almost like liable against humanity...against millions of victims.

This guy obviously wasn't expressing his freedom of speech,he was inflaming and lying with an agenda.The minute he found out he was going to jail he changed his "beliefs" right quick didn't he?

I can't even imagine what this whole issue would be like if Canada woulda invaded us and murdered millions of people,quite possible some of my relatives,in a systematic,industrial fashion.

That's why I say we shouldn't judge from here...we really have no idea where they're comming from.

Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:32:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By red65:

Originally Posted By byron2112:
At first view it does appear extreme,but this is Austria,home of Hitler,and the people of Europe were the ones that were actually rounded up in his madness.

I'm sure they have a little different perspective on this whole thing.

I don't think it's correct to project our values and history on this issue.



Bullshit raised to the 10 power.

We'd be doing those fucked up european assholes a big favor if we projected our values on them.

Their values are evil dogshit. Our values have resulted in unparalleled freedom and prosperity for 230 years.

So you're saying Freedom is conditional, depending on the circumstances? Like you should make sure nobody is upset before you speak out? You sound like a DUer to me.

Freedom is for everyone, all the time.

I doubt you really need this explained to you.

THE HOLOCAUST DID NOT HAPPEN BECAUSE OF TOO MUCH FREEDOM OF SPEECH. It happened because of not enough freedom of speech. It's sad those dizzy european fucktards cannot reel this idea in.

Who are they going to stick in jail tomorrow? Where does the evil rule of PC take us next?

PS - The Japanese killed many many more people than the Germans did. But nobody says anything because.... it isn't PC.



Very nicely put.



Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:33:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By red65:

Originally Posted By byron2112:
At first view it does appear extreme,but this is Austria,home of Hitler,and the people of Europe were the ones that were actually rounded up in his madness.

I'm sure they have a little different perspective on this whole thing.

I don't think it's correct to project our values and history on this issue.



Bullshit raised to the 10 power.

We'd be doing those fucked up european assholes a big favor if we projected our values on them.

Their values are evil dogshit. Our values have resulted in unparalleled freedom and prosperity for 230 years.

So you're saying Freedom is conditional, depending on the circumstances? Like you should make sure nobody is upset before you speak out? You sound like a DUer to me.

Freedom is for everyone, all the time.

I doubt you really need this explained to you.

THE HOLOCAUST DID NOT HAPPEN BECAUSE OF TOO MUCH FREEDOM OF SPEECH. It happened because of not enough freedom of speech. It's sad those dizzy european fucktards cannot reel this idea in.

Who are they going to stick in jail tomorrow? Where does the evil rule of PC take us next?

PS - The Japanese killed many many more people than the Germans did. But nobody says anything because.... it isn't PC.



Let's not forget the millions upon millions of people Stalin had killed.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:35:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 7:57:08 PM EDT by Zarathustra1]

Originally Posted By byron2112:
I disagree.

In think the aim here is to never allow the legitimization of denial.

Personally,I think it's important to humanity to never forget and never be allowed to be conned into questioning if these things ever happened...it's almost like liable against humanity...against millions of victims.

This guy obviously wasn't expressing his freedom of speech,he was inflaming and lying with an agenda.The minute he found out he was going to jail he changed his "beliefs" right quick didn't he?

I can't even imagine what this whole issue would be like if Canada woulda invaded us and murdered millions of people,quite possible some of my relatives,in a systematic,industrial fashion.

That's why I say we shouldn't judge from here...we really have no idea where they're comming from.




He claimed that the number of Jews killed wasn't much over 1 million. You feel that should not be allowed. What if I denied that the number was 6 million? Instead I say it was 8 million. I deny that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust.

Should that be allowed?
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:36:50 PM EDT
Being sent to jail for an opinion is the same as being jailed for believing in a religion!

Anyone who says that this guy should be jailed, shame on you pompous assholes!

Everyone is entitled to their own fucking opinion, even if it is completely fucking retarded.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:39:25 PM EDT
God bless America
Thats all I have to say k thx
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:41:55 PM EDT
What will people say when they try to make any type of thing againt Muhammad a crime
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:43:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By red65:

Their values are evil dogshit. Our values have resulted in unparalleled freedom and prosperity for 230 years.




So Europe and the UK were failures up to the birth of America...?

And by "evil" I assume you mean the boogie-man regime of the Nazis, which was very successful and prosperous up to the start of the war, and by all accounts would have been equally or even more successful than America has been had the war not ended their experiment. It is all conjecture now though.

Many would argue that American “culture” is quite a problem, not a blessing to the world.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:46:23 PM EDT
Historian?
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 8:01:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vengarr:

Originally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman:
You should never be jailed for ideas, nomatter how pathetic and misguided those ideas may be.

The 1st amendment was about freedom of ideas and beliefs, it really has nothing to do to with showing porn on public access or any other such crap the left would have you believe.

That not to say this guy isnt an asshat




You don't have freedom of speech in most european countries, only have it here.



yeah maybe I should read the article
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 8:24:46 PM EDT
Glad I live in a country where free speech is still mostly protected.

For how much longer though? (McCain-Feingold)
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 8:26:01 PM EDT
wow that whole situation is ironic.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 8:57:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vengarr:

Originally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman:
You should never be jailed for ideas, nomatter how pathetic and misguided those ideas may be.

The 1st amendment was about freedom of ideas and beliefs, it really has nothing to do to with showing porn on public access or any other such crap the left would have you believe.

That not to say this guy isnt an asshat




You don't have freedom of speech in most european countries, only have it here.



Actually you don't have it here either.

No one should be tried for just saying something. And no one should be convicted for exercising their freedom of speech. And of course no one should be sentenced to prison for it.

In Amerika I always thought you had the first amendment, but I have since seen that this is no longer true. You can not say anything that someone thinks might be "offensive". If you do they will use "hate crimes laws "against you. Don't think it can not happen here. I always felt safe in rural Tennessee. Then I read that a man who questioned the holocaust was kidnapped in the county next to me. The newspapers claimed that it was an INS charge of being illegally in the USA!!! Every day I see hundreds of illegals walking around and they snatch this guy up from his farm?! The guy is named Zundel, and he was shipped to Canada, and has since been sent to Austria to be tried as a "denier". Now alot of people will say oh he is just a "hater"(new political speak) and deserved it. But that is just a ploy by the scum that are making excuses for the abuse of power. Next if you say the South was right you will be the "hater". And then its the minute men etc. It will never end until only the "right" people are left.

http://www.zundelsite.org for his story.

If they can decide arbitrarily what is permitted speech then everyones freedom in this country is at stake. It can and will happen to all of us unless we keep the first amendment alive .
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 9:54:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cetme1:

Originally Posted By vengarr:

Originally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman:
You should never be jailed for ideas, nomatter how pathetic and misguided those ideas may be.

The 1st amendment was about freedom of ideas and beliefs, it really has nothing to do to with showing porn on public access or any other such crap the left would have you believe.

That not to say this guy isnt an asshat




You don't have freedom of speech in most european countries, only have it here.



Actually you don't have it here either.

No one should be tried for just saying something. And no one should be convicted for exercising their freedom of speech. And of course no one should be sentenced to prison for it.

In Amerika I always thought you had the first amendment, but I have since seen that this is no longer true. You can not say anything that someone thinks might be "offensive". If you do they will use "hate crimes laws "against you. Don't think it can not happen here. I always felt safe in rural Tennessee. Then I read that a man who questioned the holocaust was kidnapped in the county next to me. The newspapers claimed that it was an INS charge of being illegally in the USA!!! Every day I see hundreds of illegals walking around and they snatch this guy up from his farm?! The guy is named Zundel, and he was shipped to Canada, and has since been sent to Austria to be tried as a "denier". Now alot of people will say oh he is just a "hater"(new political speak) and deserved it. But that is just a ploy by the scum that are making excuses for the abuse of power. Next if you say the South was right you will be the "hater". And then its the minute men etc. It will never end until only the "right" people are left.

http://www.zundelsite.org for his story.

If they can decide arbitrarily what is permitted speech then everyones freedom in this country is at stake. It can and will happen to all of us unless we keep the first amendment alive .



Ahh, sweet irony. Your about to be banned for including that link to a "racist" site...
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:15:03 PM EDT
Free speech includes the right to be an asshole, otherwise Al Sharpton would be in jail.

The one which really gets me is that Demjanjuk guy -- the U.S. has been persecuting him for how long now? They sent him off to Israel to be EXECUTED, then found out he wasn't even the guy that they'd claimed. Instead of saying "oops", the U.S. tried and convicted him AGAIN. What ever happened to "no double jeopardy"?
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:15:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 10:40:58 PM EDT by www-glock19-com]
Gerhard Lauck The local dude from Lincoln ran a publishing shop out of his basement and shipped propaganda to various places in Europe, he them made the mistake to travel to Denmark i think

he was arrested and extraducted to germany where he was tried and served a few months years
Well he got back to the US and tried to get a NE handgun permit he was diened as they said he was a felon in germany .

he argued that what he did was protected byt the 1st amend. and almost 100% of the various local political refugees were techinclly felons in their home countrys for doing what is protected by the first amend don't remember if he ended up getting his permit but it was intresting case and as much as it pained me to do so i agreed with the guy


holy shit there is alot on google about this guy


LINKY1
LINK
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:19:42 PM EDT
Dupe
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=436591

Serves him right though for his attempt to silence his critics...hoist by his own petard he is...
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:34:13 PM EDT
serves him right.

lying about history and spreading it as truth can really hurt our society. Free Speech is good and all, but there are some things one shouldn't say in decency... and there are things that are downright illegal to say and will have the secret service kicking down your door and shooting your dog in no time... ask the sore loser DU types who tried printing "provocative" t-shirts after the 2004 election
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:02:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 11:03:19 PM EDT by cnatra]

Originally Posted By TRW:
Glad I live in a country where free speech is still mostly protected.

For how much longer though? (McCain-Feingold)




+1
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 4:38:06 AM EDT
If someone wants to deny the holocaust, that is their RIGHT.

They would be a complete idiot to do so, ESPECIALLY since they have farkin' VIDEO of the Nazis using Zyklon B to gas people to death, but FREEDOM means the freedom to be a complete idiot.

Jailing someone for 10 years for an opinion on the holocaust is just plain stupid.

Isn't Europe amazing? People talk about how "free" it is because there is some legal prostitution and some legal pot use. Meanwhile the right to bear arms and the right to political speech are non-existant.....

No thank you.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 4:39:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TRW:
Glad I live in a country where free speech is still mostly protected.

For how much longer though? (McCain-Feingold)



Indeed.

But it is hard to make that arguement to a bunch of idiots who think that the 1st ammendment exists to allow Howard Stern to spank strippers on his radio show rather than to let citizens and citizen groups speak out about elections.

The ACLU and their miserable communist comrades have had their effect at redefining the meaning of the Constitution into something altogether different than what it says.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:06:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Isn't Europe amazing?



It's a German and Austrian thing to act like a bunch of nazis to show the rest of the world that they ain't nazis.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:06:56 AM EDT
wow, guy's an asshat but he sure as shit doesn't deserve to get arrested or convicted of the crime of being an asshat. beat up by a buncha izzy paras on leave, yeah, but not harassed by the .gov!

does anyone else get the irony of this? austria and the rest of europe are so concerned about being pc they're acting just like the fucking nazis they so loathe and want to deny! just wait, i'm sure re-education camps are just around the corner where such irresponsible members of society will be KONZENTRATED into a more manageable group.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:45:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zarathustra1:

Rifleman2000
He shouldn't be in jail. He should be in a gas chamber.




You advocate killing people for their thoughts?

What an ass.



Yeah, I do. I advocate killing people that think that terrorism is good. I advocate killing people that think that it is acceptable to condone and perform acts of rape, murder, and pillaging. In fact, there are lots of people that I advocate killing.

Now, I was a little tongue in cheek when I said he should be in a gas chamber, but really, someone that spouts that bullshit and covers up the mass murders of millions (thus making it easier for history to repeat itself) is really just an oxygen thief. Should it be a law? No, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve it.

You advocate tolerance of intolerance?

What an ass.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:23:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By byron2112:
I disagree.

In think the aim here is to never allow the legitimization of denial.

Personally,I think it's important to humanity to never forget and never be allowed to be conned into questioning if these things ever happened...it's almost like liable against humanity...against millions of victims.

This guy obviously wasn't expressing his freedom of speech,he was inflaming and lying with an agenda.The minute he found out he was going to jail he changed his "beliefs" right quick didn't he?

I can't even imagine what this whole issue would be like if Canada woulda invaded us and murdered millions of people,quite possible some of my relatives,in a systematic,industrial fashion.

That's why I say we shouldn't judge from here...we really have no idea where they're comming from.




Yeah, he changed his mind.

Take it a step further. If you stuck a red hot poker into his eyeball he'd say anything you like.

Hooray for the rule of reason... don't disagree with us or we put you in jail.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:39:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By Zarathustra1:

Rifleman2000
He shouldn't be in jail. He should be in a gas chamber.




You advocate killing people for their thoughts?

What an ass.



Yeah, I do. I advocate killing people that think that terrorism is good. I advocate killing people that think that it is acceptable to condone and perform acts of rape, murder, and pillaging. In fact, there are lots of people that I advocate killing.

Now, I was a little tongue in cheek when I said he should be in a gas chamber, but really, someone that spouts that bullshit and covers up the mass murders of millions (thus making it easier for history to repeat itself) is really just an oxygen thief. Should it be a law? No, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve it.

You advocate tolerance of intolerance?

What an ass.



You honestly believe that "intolerance" is a crime that you should be jailed for?

This AR15 site has been a real eye opener for me.

It's shocking how deeply the liberal brainwashing has penetrated into the typcal american's mind.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:40:24 PM EDT
The offending speech was uttered in 1989.

He was tried under a law that made his speech criminal in 1992.

I'm amazed that we have fucktards here who would champion the notion of retroactive speech crime, just because they don't like what someone is saying.

You folks ARE EXACTLY THE TYPE OF DUPES who let someone like Hitler come to power.

Short sighted, emotionally driven, thin skinned dip shits.
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