My buddy's brother got busted with meth during a traffic stop a few months ago.
He's facing charges of intent to distribute or something like that this week. The D.A. tryed to make a deal with him to plead guilty and get 10 years probation but he refused, saying "you never take the first deal they offer."

Am I right in telling his sister that he's an idiot for that? (he is of course)

To me it looks like the D.A. just wants to avoid the time and expense of a trial. But if the guy won't play, the D.A's going to say "Fine see ya in a few years." It's not like he's some mob informant with a little leverage to get a better deal, he's just a 2-bit scumbag without a leg to stand on.

Yep, he's an idiot.h.gif  He refused probation on a felony?  (Meth is a felony isn't it?)

Quoted: Yep, he's an idiot.  He refused probation on a felony?  (Meth is a felony isn't it?)

Yup. I doubt we will see any meth heads take a gold at the critical thought processes olympics.

I don't know if my opinion counts for much, never stayed at the Holiday Inn, but I slept in a Motel 8 a few times. I'd just stay out of it and let him rot. It goes without saying that he's an idiot, he got busted with meth, and enough of it to get him pinned with distribution.

I think it's funny as hell watching this guy go down the toilet but I hate to see what it does to the family, they're really good people but cursed with an idiot for a son.

THe man has a drug problem, I don't think locking him up in prison is the answer.

Quoted: I don't know if my opinion counts for much, never stayed at the Holiday Inn, but I slept in a Motel 8 a few times. I'd just stay out of it and let him rot. It goes without saying that he's an idiot, he got busted with meth, and enough of it to get him pinned with distribution.

I'm not involved, I was just trying to tell his sister what he's in for if he plays hard-headed, which he will. He's too stupid not to go to jail.

Yup. I doubt we will see any meth heads take a gold at the critical thought processes olympics.

Well said

Quoted: And what does his court-appointed lawyer have to say about this?

His lawyer is the ex D.A. and is more worried about him running than just being stupid.

Well, he need to get a real lawyer and explore his options.

Also, he can kiss the car goodbye. They'll seize that and not return it.

Remember though, in some places a guilty plea is a guilty plea, and even if he only gets a deferred sentece or probation, it still counts as a felony conviction with all the "perks" thereof.

He's an idiot for having meth.

Quoted: Yup. I doubt we will see any meth heads take a gold at the critical thought processes olympics.

He was offered probation on an Intent to Distribute charge?  Yes, he's an idiot for turning down that deal.

ETA: On the other hand maybe he figures that the odds of him keeping his nose clean for 10 years are exactly nil, so he may as well get his time over with.

Quoted: My buddy's brother got busted with meth during a traffic stop a few months ago. He's facing charges of intent to distribute or something like that this week. The D.A. tryed to make a deal with him to plead guilty and get 10 years probation but he refused, saying "you never take the first deal they offer." Am I right in telling his sister that he's an idiot for that? (he is of course) To me it looks like the D.A. just wants to avoid the time and expense of a trial. But if the guy won't play, the D.A's going to say "Fine see ya in a few years." It's not like he's some mob informant with a little leverage to get a better deal, he's just a 2-bit scumbag without a leg to stand on.

Exactly.

The meth head is caught dead to rights and doesn't seem to have ANYTHING to offer the DA. Thus a no jailtime offer is a pretty darn good deal unless he has some sort of solid 4th ammendment claim.

To negotiate one usually has to have something of value for trade. If he can't give the DA anything, he should take what he can get from the DA.

First, he needs a real lawyer.

Second, he has to decide on (or has to be convinced to decide on) what penalty he is prepared to pay -- assuming he is guilty, and it sounds as though he is. If he has any sense, or if his lawyer does, he will decide that the primary aim is to avoid a felony conviction.

If that is what they decide, then the lawyer needs to go back to the DA with a counter offer, which would undoubtedly include pleading guilty to at least one misdemeaneor offense, proof of having signed up for some anti-drug counceling, possibly having started a course of treatment with a psychologist to help get off drugs and an offer to accept some 9reasonable) number of hours of community service of the DA's choice.

If this is his first offense, there is every likelyhood that both the DA and the judge will buy this.

He is going to get probation (10 year seems a bit long...), and it is going to cost him a lot of time and money. That part he has to get used to right now.

Prison is where he needs to be!!!!!

I'm guessing from the type of people I've seen use and deal in Meth, he will never be able to successfully complete 1 year of probation much less 10 years.

Semper Fi,
M60-E4

Quoted: Well, he need to get a real lawyer and explore his options. Also, he can kiss the car goodbye. They'll seize that and not return it. Remember though, in some places a guilty plea is a guilty plea, and even if he only gets a deferred sentece or probation, it still counts as a felony conviction with all the "perks" thereof.

Are there any places where a guilty plea with probation is not a guilty plea?  If he pleads to a felony, he's a convicted felon with no gun rights, so he might as well move to Kali.

Who cares? He's a meth head.

Quoted: Are there any places where a guilty plea with probation is not a guilty plea?  If he pleads, he's a convicted felon with no gun rights, so he might as well move to Kali.

Unless the DA is willing to let him plead to a lesser non-felony offense. Even with some jail time, that would be preferable in the long run to avoid the felony conviction.

Still, unless the DA has a really weak case odds are that he won't let that felony conviction go.

He will never complete his probation successfully. In the mean time he will destroy his own life and possibly others. Send him to the pokey. It will be best for everyone.

Quoted: Who cares? He's a meth head.

I do.  Lots of people who used illegal drugs in their youth have gone on to become productive, dues-paying members of the ARFCOM community.  Maybe he's a "meth head" now.  That doesn't mean he will be five or ten or twenty years from now, but when it comes to gun rights, any felony conviction means that for the rest of your life, the most you can ever hope for is the be an airsofter.  If that ain't cruel and unusual, I don't know what is.  

If he pleads guilty to posession with intent....it really doesn't matter WHAT the DA says his sentence will be. The DA can only ask for the fool to be probated....the JUDGE is the final say in what sentence is handed down.

The DA can ask for probation and the Judge can give him 10 years in da joint. It all depends on the Judge. Once one has entered a plea, there's no going back.

He needs to get a paid attorney to represent him. Court appointed attorneys are just lip service to legal representation.

Quoted: He will never complete his probation successfully. In the mean time he will destroy his own life and possibly others. Send him to the pokey. It will be best for everyone.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I have seen meth addicts in TREATMENT, and it ain't like even alcoholism. Its a bitch.

He's "guilty unless proven innocent in a court of law".  Seriously, if it goes to trial, well over 90% of the jurors selected will be opposed to drugs.  In other words, he does not stand a snow ball's chance in a court of law.

This guy got into drugs late in life (about 27 years old) and jump in with both feet. I think prison is the only way he will survive more than a few years. He's about 31 now and looks like he's in his sixties.

I used to hang with some rather sketchy peeps and I always told them "don"t evercall me to bail you out of jail" if you're dumb enough to break the law and get busted you need to do the time...

He's an idot.  The prosecutor doesn't have to offer him anything and doesn't have to reply to a counter offer.  This isn't a negotiation at a used car lot.  The meth dealer brings nothing to the table.  The prosecutor is probably under some pressure to attempt to plea cases to reduce the case load but he/she is also governed by rules on what he/she can offer.  That's not to say that the prosecutor won't negotiate, but they certainly don't have to.

In most cases, a judge will agree to the terms of a plea agreement.  If the judge doesn't like it, the entire plea agreement goes out the window.  The guilty plea is withdrawn and the sentence witheld until after the trial.  A judge cannot accept a guilty plea as part of a plea agreement and then change the sentence in the agreement.  It is just that, an agreement.  It either goes or it doesn't.

Quoted: This guy got into drugs late in life (about 27 years old) and jump in with both feet. I think prison is the only way he will survive more than a few years. He's about 31 now and looks like he's in his sixties.

Fuck em. The world would be a better palce without meth ot meth-heads.

Quoted: He's an idot.  The prosecutor doesn't have to offer him anything and doesn't have to reply to a counter offer.  This isn't a negotiation at a used car lot.  The meth dealer brings nothing to the table.  The prosecutor is probably under some pressure to attempt to plea cases to reduce the case load but he/she is also governed by rules on what he/she can offer.  That's not to say that the prosecutor won't negotiate, but they certainly don't have to. In most cases, a judge will agree to the terms of a plea agreement.  If the judge doesn't like it, the entire plea agreement goes out the window.  The guilty plea is withdrawn and the sentence witheld until after the trial.  A judge cannot accept a guilty plea as part of a plea agreement and then change the sentence in the agreement.  It is just that, an agreement.  It either goes or it doesn't.

I wasn't aware that throwing out a plea agreement it nullified the guilty plea. Forgive my earlier statement indicating the opposite. Hey...you learn something every day! Hopefully.

My post was to make MonkTx aware that although Judges usually take recomendations from DAs, that isn't set in stone and a Judge can nullify the agreement. This just happened in a case somewhere which I had heard about on Foxnews. Seems the perp was convicted of Child Abuse and the DA recommended an insanely light sentence. The Judge called bullshit and gave the guy the maximum sentence. At least there's one good judge out there!

Quoted: Quoted: Who cares? He's a meth head. I do.  Lots of people who used illegal drugs in their youth have gone on to become productive, dues-paying members of the ARFCOM community.  Maybe he's a "meth head" now.  That doesn't mean he will be five or ten or twenty years from now, but when it comes to gun rights, any felony conviction means that for the rest of your life, the most you can ever hope for is the be an airsofter.  If that ain't cruel and unusual, I don't know what is.

HERESY ALERT HERESY ALERT - 99% of the country don't give a shit about their gun rights.  His time to worry about losing gun rights went away when HE DECIDED to do drugs. His big worry now is how to not ruin the rest of his life, that of his family.  His gun rights don't mean shit compared to that.

That said he's a dumb shit meth head who has shown he hasn't the brain power to adequately run his life.  Not sure I want him to have guns or gun rights.  His decision making quality to now sucks, no reason to expect it to get measurably better.

Quoted: This guy got into drugs late in life (about 27 years old) and jump in with both feet. I think prison is the only way he will survive more than a few years. He's about 31 now and looks like he's in his sixties.

Meth is a hell of a drug.

It seriously messes up everyone who messes with it.

A good friend of mine got convicted of selling Meth many (20+) years ago. I just met him 5+ years ago, he's a fine, up standing citizen. Two fine, grown children, still married to his high school sweetheart.

He's trying to get the conviction removed from his record now, as it can cause all kinds of problems to leading a normal life.

Without my friend as an example, I'd say let the kid rot in jail.

Knowing my friend, I'll say the kid can have a chance. He should avoid a felony if he possibly can.

Good Luck!

Quoted: Quoted: Well, he need to get a real lawyer and explore his options. Also, he can kiss the car goodbye. They'll seize that and not return it. Remember though, in some places a guilty plea is a guilty plea, and even if he only gets a deferred sentece or probation, it still counts as a felony conviction with all the "perks" thereof. Are there any places where a guilty plea with probation is not a guilty plea? .

Yep California.  You get caught with meth you can either defer your arraingment for 6-18 months until you complete a treatment program, then the charged are thrown out. Or you can plead guilty, then get the record expunged after 6-18 months.  Google PC1210, PC1000, Prop 36...

Quoted: Quoted: Who cares? He's a meth head. I do.  Lots of people who used illegal drugs in their youth have gone on to become productive, dues-paying members of the ARFCOM community.

He's apparently dealing not just using.

Maybe he's a "meth head" now.  That doesn't mean he will be five or ten or twenty years from now...

Yep. He will be dead, disabled or insane.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Who cares? He's a meth head. I do.  Lots of people who used illegal drugs in their youth have gone on to become productive, dues-paying members of the ARFCOM community. He's apparently dealing not just using.

Because that's what they charged him with?  Gimme a break.  Prosecutors routinely overcharge so they can plead it down.  If, like the post says, he was snagged in a traffic stop, "intent to distribute" only means that he had a bit more of the stuff on him than the prosecutor thought he should.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, he need to get a real lawyer and explore his options. Also, he can kiss the car goodbye. They'll seize that and not return it. Remember though, in some places a guilty plea is a guilty plea, and even if he only gets a deferred sentece or probation, it still counts as a felony conviction with all the "perks" thereof. Are there any places where a guilty plea with probation is not a guilty plea? . Yep California.  You get caught with meth you can either defer your arraingment for 6-18 months until you complete a treatment program, then the charged are thrown out. Or you can plead guilty, then get the record expunged after 6-18 months.  Google PC1210, PC1000, Prop 36...

That's why I put in "probation" rather than "deferred adjudication."  Totally different things.

Quoted: I think it's funny as hell watching this guy go down the toilet but I hate to see what it does to the family, they're really good people but cursed with an idiot for a son.

Better to see him go to jail now and the family can get over it. If he had taken "the deal" he would be back on the street and in short order would be back on the Meth. Then with his mind cooked no telling the hell he would put the family thru.

Quoted: Quoted: I think it's funny as hell watching this guy go down the toilet but I hate to see what it does to the family, they're really good people but cursed with an idiot for a son. Better to see him go to jail now and the family can get over it. If he had taken "the deal" he would be back on the street and in short order would be back on the Meth. Then with his mind cooked no telling the hell he would put the family thru.

+1  It sounds like he's selling it?

If he doesnt go to jail and dont quit now he's either gonna end up killing someone or getting killed. My bro in law almost got killed by his best friend who was on meth. The dude thought he was a cop and started shooting at him.

My uncle was on it and was letting some dudes make it in his house, he tried to quit and go straight and the people who had been making it in his house killed him.

IMO its one of the worst drugs.

Idiot.  10 years of probation on a felony (at least in FL...any ammount of meth is a felony), versus prison.....hmmmm......yep IDIOT.

Quoted: Because that's what they charged him with?  Gimme a break.  Prosecutors routinely overcharge so they can plead it down.  If, like the post says, he was snagged in a traffic stop, "intent to distribute" only means that he had a bit more of the stuff on him than the prosecutor thought he should.

No, there are STATUTORY DEFINITIONS of what constitutes posession with intent to distribute in most cases...It is not just a discretionary call on the prosecutor's part.

Meth users cannot be rehabilitated.

Quoted: Meth users cannot be rehabilitated.

Not true.

I have seen some rehabilitated.

But from looking at the overall situation, I would say that they are more likely to be rehabed than child molesters.....but not by much.

Quoted: Quoted: Who cares? He's a meth head. I do.  Lots of people who used illegal drugs in their youth have gone on to become productive, dues-paying members of the ARFCOM community.  Maybe he's a "meth head" now.  That doesn't mean he will be five or ten or twenty years from now, but when it comes to gun rights, any felony conviction means that for the rest of your life, the most you can ever hope for is the be an airsofter.  If that ain't cruel and unusual, I don't know what is.

I would doubt that there are many former methamphetamine abusers hereabouts.  There's a biiiiiiiig difference between a guy who smoked some weed in 1969 and your average addled tweaker.

It's like Rabies man.. There have been a few who pulled through, but the odds favor a bullet to the head being the humane way.

He knew the risks and he kept playing the game. He decides to ignore a deal then I say fuck him. This moron does not feel guilty otherwise he would be kissing ass to get this over with, now he will be kissing more than ass in prison till it's over with.

Quoted: Quoted: Because that's what they charged him with?  Gimme a break.  Prosecutors routinely overcharge so they can plead it down.  If, like the post says, he was snagged in a traffic stop, "intent to distribute" only means that he had a bit more of the stuff on him than the prosecutor thought he should. No, there are STATUTORY DEFINITIONS of what constitutes posession with intent to distribute in most cases...It is not just a discretionary call on the prosecutor's part.

Since this thread was started by MonkTx who lives in Texas, I'm assuming that it happened in Texas.  And because he's talking about a D.A. rather than a A.U.S.A. offering the deal, I'm assuming Texas law applies.  That being the case, I believe you're talking out your ass.

I have looked through the Texas Penal Code and The Health and Safety Code and was unable to find any such schedule.  (There are schedules increasing the level of the offense based on the amount of the drug involved, but none that I could find that created a statutory presumption af an intent to deliver based on the amount possessed.)  And since I couldn't find it there, I did a Lexis search of Texas case law to see if I could find any evidence of such a schedule.  I could not.  What I did find is stuff like this (from Guy v. State, 160 S.W.3d 606 (Tex. App.--Fort Worth 2005)):

Intent to deliver may be proved by circumstantial evidence, including evidence surrounding its possession. Rhodes v. State, 913 S.W.2d 242, 251 (Tex. App.--Fort Worth 1995), aff'd, 945 S.W.2d 115 (Tex. Crim. App. 1997), cert. denied, 522 U.S. 894, 139 L. Ed. 2d 167, 118 S. Ct. 236 (1997). Additionally, intent to deliver may be inferred from the quantity of drugs possessed and from the manner in which they are packaged. Id. Courts have considered several factors in determining such intent, including the following: (1) the nature of the location where the defendant was arrested; (2) the quantity of drugs the defendant possessed; (3) the manner of  packaging of the drugs; (4) the presence or absence of drug paraphernalia (for use or sale); (5) whether the defendant possessed a large amount of cash in addition to the drugs; and (6) the defendant's status as a drug user. Jordan v. State, 139 S.W.3d 723, 726 (Tex. App.--Fort Worth 2004, no pet.). Expert testimony may be introduced to prove intent to deliver. Id.

Maybe I've missed something, and maybe there's a Texas DA or criminal defense lawyer out there who can cite a statutory schedule that neither I nor the Fort Worth Court of Appeals was aware of.  But it sure looks like a discretionary call on the part of the prosecutor to me.

From what I have read...  It sounds like he WAS NOT CHARGED in federal court.

HE should be very glad if that is the case.

FIRST... in federal court YOU WANT a public defender.  They have all the experience, more than "real attornies", they are better at working deals, and they know the federal system which is WAY different than local courts.  A "real attorney" will cost in excess of $10k to $15k, more if a trial happens.  90% of the "real attornies" don't do well in federal court.  The reason... the practice is way different than their normal criminal practice... rules are different, the process is way faster, etc, and they just don't have the experience to know and understand the system unless they practice in federal court often!

SECOND... in federal court YOU TAKE the first deal.  Most often than not, the first deal is the last deal they offer.  There is a phrase often used by LE in the federal system... "get on the bus or get run over by it!"

THIRD... 95%+ roll or "snitch" on co-defendants in federal court.  It is the ONLY way they deal... you don't cooperate... you get run over by the bus!

FOURTH... in the federal system expect to do 85% of the given sentence, and expect supervised release at the end when released.  Supervised release is often the toughest part of a federal sentence.  It is very easy to get violated and go back to jail!

FIFTH... many defendants do not realize until they get sentenced that the federal system is severly different.  Federal sentences are NOT short, a true 85% of the time is served, there almost never is probation, there is ALWAYS supervised release, and often supervised release is violated at some point... and back to jail they go.


Before anyone starts flying a BS flag.  I am a recently retired U.S. Marshal.  I did this stuff for 20+ years.  If I ever was stupid enough to catch a federal case, my first pick would be the federal public defender.  I have seen hundreds of "real attornies" practice in federal court.  There are only about 5 "real attornies" here I would consider hiring.  Three of them are FORMER federal public defenders!

If your buddy's brother is a meth head... there is a 99.999% chance the guy is a lost cause for the rest of his life.  He sounds like the typical meth head... "you never take the first deal they offer".  They think they hold all the cards and the DA has to deal with them.  A real problem with the reality of their meth addiction!  


My best advise... be a supportive friend to your buddy.  STAY HALF A PLANET AWAY FROM HIS BROTHER and his case!  I have seen desperate defendants take advantage of people trying to help them straighten out their life... and "roll" on an innocent person so they have something to try and give the DA to make their case go away!

If it is a federal case... IM me and I will give you a telephone number if you have more questions.

your first question should be do you like the guy, and if not well yeah he is right if you do then he is an idiot making the wrong choice and will probably not listen even if some one tells him so.

Quoted: Since this thread was started by MonkTx who lives in Texas, I'm assuming that it happened in Texas.  And because he's talking about a D.A. rather than a A.U.S.A. offering the deal, I'm assuming Texas law applies.  That being the case, I believe you're talking out your ass.

If you will notice, I said MOST CASES, meaning MOST CASES and not ALL CASES.

I don't see a specific definition of intent to deliver in the Texas code. In other states there are definitions that mimic Federal guidelines.

And even the decision you mentioned doesn't make it merely a judgement call on the prosecutor's part. There has to be SOME REASON for a charge of intent to deliver. The prosecutor can't just think it up.