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Posted: 2/18/2006 6:24:08 PM EDT

You guessed it....the FN 5.7!!!!!

RUN!! IT's going to shoot you down in the streets!!!!



Boston police warn of vest-piercing gun
High-powered weapon on streets
By Suzanne Smalley, Globe Staff | February 18, 2006

The Boston Police Department is sounding the alarm that a new type of high-powered handgun is on the streets that fires rounds police say can pierce many kinds of bulletproof vests worn by officers.

The department issued a safety alert to officers after two men were shot with the gun in Dorchester and Mattapan last week. The alert, obtained by the Globe, warned that the FN Five-Seven handgun fires the bullets at such a velocity that they ''will punch through your vest, PLATE included."

Yesterday, officers of all ranks expressed concern that the weapon has surfaced in Boston.

''These aren't recreational weapons," Police Commissioner Kathleen M. O'Toole said in an interview. ''This is an example of a gun designed to kill people."

Added one rank-and-file officer: ''The ability to go through a vest . . . it's just way too dangerous. It's real scary."

''It's dangerous as it is," said the officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he did not have department permission to speak to the media. ''It just gets compounded with something like that. Your fear level is increased a whole lot more, because the vest that you're wearing is obsolete."

The gun, manufactured by FN Herstal, was first sold in the United States in early 2004. It began appearing in US cities in late 2004, said Gene Voegtlin, the legislative counsel for the International Association of Chiefs of Police. Around the same time, the federal Department of Homeland Security sent out a warning about the gun and ammunition.

The gun is about the same size as the .40-caliber Glock handgun that Boston police use. It is sold to the public, and a slightly different version is sold to the military and law enforcement agencies. The major difference is in the ammunition.

The bullets sold to the military and law enforcement have a steel-hardened tip, making them able to penetrate thicker body armor. Company officials said that the sale of this type of ammunition is tightly regulated.

The bullets available to the public do not have an armor-piercing tip and are designed to fragment upon impact, making them less powerful. Company officials said that while the commercially available ammunition can in rare cases penetrate some body armor used by law enforcement, these bullets cannot pierce other models of bulletproof vests.

Rick DeMilt -- director of sales and marketing for FNH-USA, the US subsidiary of FN Herstal -- said the gun found by Boston police is sold for sporting purposes, such as hunting and competitive sports shooting. It is unclear which kind of ammunition was found by Boston police.

''All guns are dangerous; this one is of particular concern because of the high-powered ammunition," O'Toole said. Officers, she said, should ''be on the lookout" for the weapon.

Officers were not involved in the shootings last week. An internal police intelligence report obtained by the Globe said it was not clear whether the same gun was used in both episodes. The document said that the victim in one shooting was hit multiple times and taken to the hospital in critical condition. Neither shooting has become a homicide, police said yesterday.

The gun has caught the attention of officials in several other cities. In Washington, D.C., last year, police officials joined the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence to decry the availability of the weapon. ''We're certainly deeply concerned about a weapon on the street that could be so potentially lethal," District of Columbia Police spokesman Officer Kenny Bryson said yesterday.

US Representative Christopher Shays of Connecticut sent a letter to US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives officials last year inquiring about the gun, which he said he was ''very concerned" to learn had been seized by police in Trumbull, Conn.

DeMilt said Massachusetts is the only state in the country where his company does not legally sell any of the FN Five-Seven guns or ammunition to the public.

The gun's magazine usually holds 20 bullets, more than those of many handguns, and the sale of ones like it is illegal in Massachusetts.

Company officials defend the gun and said that, when used with the ammunition sold to the public, it is similar to many other handguns on the market. DeMilt said that his company cannot be responsible for illegal sales of the more lethal bullets designed for military and police use.

FN Herstal also makes the pepper-pellet gun that Boston police shelved after Red Sox fan Victoria Snelgrove was shot and killed in October 2004. Her family is suing the firm, and if the Snelgroves win, the city, as part of its wrongful death settlement with the family, would share the award.

Voegtlin said the guns should be illegal everywhere. ''Weapons that don't serve a legitimate hunting or sporting purpose and are designed to defeat or penetrate the body armor worn by police officers don't belong in our communities," he said.

Sid Heal, a tactical operations specialist and commander with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department who has handled the gun, said that the weapon is very powerful, even with bullets available to the public.

Heal also questioned why any company would sell bullets that can pierce body armor. ''What does a person need a pistol that can penetrate a vest for?" Heal said. ''I can tell you the average citizen doesn't."

Andrew Arulanandam, a National Rifle Association spokesman, said that the answer is not to make weapons illegal, but to better police the criminals who use them. ''If these crimes are being perpetrated by criminals who already have an existing record then they should not be in possession of any firearm or any ammunition," he said.

But Heal said the gun is dangerous and difficult to control because of its small size and high power.

''It goes so fast and it's penetrating because the round is so small," Heal said. ''There's rounds that go faster and there's rounds that are more penetrating, but none that I know of that come out of pistols. They come out of rifles."

Suzanne Smalley can be reached at ssmalley@globe.com.

.............................................

The latest boogeyman to divert attention away from the fact that everybody in Boston is afraid to say what the real problem is- minority drug dealers and gangbangers in the projects. Even though everybody knows it to be true, to say that out loud automatically makes the speaker a racist, however.

Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:26:05 PM EDT



These people are really, really stupid.

Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:27:20 PM EDT
Oh teh noes!!!
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:27:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:28:30 PM EDT
well, that's just another case for RESPONSIBLE gun ownership....

a FivesevN is FAR too expensive for a homeboy to buy, so any on the streets will be stolen (homeboys STEAL THEIR GUNS?? *GASP*)

-don't leave a gun in your car
-don't leave guns in easy to find places in your home when you are not there
-don't loan your guns to friends (be a dick if you have to)

The vast majority of guns used in crimes are STOLEN and were never legally bought by their users. We as gun owners have a RESPONSIBILITY to protect our sport/hobby, not to mention innocent people by KEEPING OUR GUNS SECURE AT ALL TIMES!!!
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:30:25 PM EDT
Gee, I wonder what LEOs did before Kevlar?

I love the pants-wetting howls of “These people are not defenseless subjects!!!”
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:31:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
Il dupe
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=438326

+1
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:34:26 PM EDT
I think I would worry more about a cz-52.
I also like the way they give pic's and all the spec's so homee knows what to get.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:35:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 3-gun:
I think I would worry more about a cz-52.
I also like the way they give pic's and all the spec's so homee knows what to get.



"Dats tight, man."
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:36:56 PM EDT
200 years ago government operatives tried to ban guns in that area of the country, 200 years later government is still trying to ban guns. Some people never get it.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:37:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
200 years ago government operatives tried to ban guns in that area of the country, 200 years later government is still trying to ban guns. Some people never get it.



"Meet the new boss


Same as the old boss."
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:41:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
200 years ago government operatives tried to ban guns in that area of the country, 200 years later government is still trying to ban guns. Some people never get it.



"Meet the new boss


Same as the old boss."




You got that right.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:43:26 PM EDT
More of the usual. Nothing new here. Guns in general spook even so-called "conservatives" in much of Massachusetts. The real conservatives in Massachusetts can attest to these rhino cop-outs they deal with I am sure.

I work in Boston. With that said, fuck Boston. Its the ultimate experiment in social darwinism - how much can Boston take before it turns into either a) total anarchy or b) total socialism. I could plea a cheap cop out and blame the city government for its woes. No, I blame all the candyass liberals who elected them. Perhaps you remember the city ordering a business owner to remove his pro-Republican banner from his business during the Boston DNC or ELSE. There are good people who work and live in Massachusetts. I don't know how you do it - I lived on the south shore and cape cod for a time while stationed there. I had to escape to New Hampshire for some respite to sanity. Stay strong - and if you ever need to go shooting - we are just a state border away - seriously.

I doubt all street cops hold the antigun feelings which Katherine the Tool shares. It is Mass though, and sadly I have met Peace Officers who could care less about Constitutional Rights - like everything else - its hit or miss. With that said, don't stereotype.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:44:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:
You guessed it....the FN 5.7!!!!!

RUN!! IT's going to shoot you down in the streets!!!!

cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Graphic/2006/02/18/1140247703_4236.gif



Police Commissioner Kathleen M. O'Toole said in an interview. ''This is an example of a gun designed to kill people."






Holy Shit!!! A gun designed to kill people?!?!?!?! Pack up the children....hide your sheep.....Let's get the fuck outta here!!!!!!

Oh wait........The Five Seven cannot be sold legally in Mass. because of the mag capacity, so they couldn't have found one......impossible. All is well.

See, gun laws do work.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 7:06:43 PM EDT
So who the hell wears armor? All guns are lethal. We had to deal with the concept of lethal firearms for hundreds of years before body armor showed up.

As a matter of fact, people with guns scare the living shit out of people they point them at. To the degree that they may not hear or understand what they are told when all the blood rushes to their stomach and they feel like fainting.

Fighters need to be trained to handle the fear, not pin their hopes on the safety of a vest. Put the vest on and forget it's there, deal with the threat as though you are 100% vulnerable.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 7:37:41 PM EDT
Has anyone actually done any testing to determine the amount of damage done after this thing pierces the armor? Isn't the energy similar to a .22 magnum?
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 7:49:51 PM EDT
You mean these new killer guns can even penetrate the "mirror almond shape sunglasses" worn by these MASS cops ? ---- Fukin outrageous !!!!
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:00:42 PM EDT
Give Mass back to the Brits and their gun problems will be solved..
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:02:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

The department issued a safety alert to officers after two men were shot with the gun in Dorchester and Mattapan last week. The alert, obtained by the Globe, warned that the FN Five-Seven handgun fires the bullets at such a velocity that they ''will punch through your vest, PLATE included."




Well, given that, it sounds like a valid warning.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:07:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/18/2006 8:09:47 PM EDT by shotar]
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:23:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SkiShooter:
Give Mass back to the Brits and their gun problems will be solved..



Funny you should mention that. MA has a lot of British people living here. Heck, I'm even married to one!
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:31:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By J_Smith:
More of the usual. Nothing new here. Guns in general spook even so-called "conservatives" in much of Massachusetts. The real conservatives in Massachusetts can attest to these rhino cop-outs they deal with I am sure.



Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney: "I support the Massachusetts Assault Weapons Ban." Republican.


I work in Boston. With that said, fuck Boston. Its the ultimate experiment in social darwinism - how much can Boston take before it turns into either a) total anarchy or b) total socialism. I could plea a cheap cop out and blame the city government for its woes. No, I blame all the candyass liberals who elected them. Perhaps you remember the city ordering a business owner to remove his pro-Republican banner from his business during the Boston DNC or ELSE. There are good people who work and live in Massachusetts. I don't know how you do it - I lived on the south shore and cape cod for a time while stationed there. I had to escape to New Hampshire for some respite to sanity. Stay strong - and if you ever need to go shooting - we are just a state border away - seriously.


We'll move there when we retire.


I doubt all street cops hold the antigun feelings which Katherine the Tool shares. It is Mass though, and sadly I have met Peace Officers who could care less about Constitutional Rights - like everything else - its hit or miss. With that said, don't stereotype.


She's a politician. Maybe she'll go the way of Paula Meara (sp?) the ex-LEO of Springfield, MA, ridden out of town on a rail- figuratively.

But: MA cops have to enforce the law, ESPECIALLY gun laws- or dey lose da penshun, hey!
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:34:40 PM EDT
I'm willing to bet that at least 75% of gun owners have a gun that will penetrate a vest.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:35:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shotar:

Originally Posted By lippo:



These people are really, really stupid.




No, they are not stupid. FN brought this fiasco on themselves because they advertised this pistol and Calibre to every police periodical in the country as a vest defeating armor defeating round. They said it was going to be LE only and that it was for special teams who may go up against armored felons. Then they turned around and released it to the public. Granted the public sale ammo is supposedly not armor defeating, but after FN's extensive ad campaign, who's gonna listen. FN did this to themselves and have only themselves to blame. They wanted every cop in the country to believe their advertising and most of us did.

First rule of being a cop, don't carry a gun that can defeat your own vest. Second rule is don't let anyone disarm you ever. Third rule, shit happens. Guess which one is most likely in a physical confrontation?



Very valid point. That aside - regardless of one thinks the perp is a regular felon or not - proper tactical training institutions often EMPHASIZE using HEADSHOTS. If someone is trying to murder you - LEO or not - use headshots - because honestly - gangs like the Crips, Bluds, Latin Kings, and MS-13 DO have body armor now........learn head shots. Welcome to America Redux.

I think the ban on Five-Seven shit is stupid - that aside - I still no realistic practical application. However, the Constitutional RKBA is not established upon opinions made by civilians - it is based on

................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................the

INALIENABLE RIGHT OF MAN TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. Inalienable implies that some power [God -

which the state of Massachusetts does not recognize it seems] shall not be infringed.





This is about the principle of our very Constitution. Do I need a Five-Seven? probably not. Is that the question - no. The question is - who the FUCK has the AUTHORITY to tell me to NOT own said weapon? Guess what Massachusetts? You aren't God. Stop traying to play it.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:52:04 PM EDT
Funny thing is,us lowly civilians can't even buy that gun,it isn't on the "Approved handguns list".Along with recent Glocks,HK's,Kimber's etc...
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:57:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/18/2006 9:00:42 PM EDT by ORinTX]
Well, guess I need to go buy a five-seven, just to piss the libs off.

ETA: I like how the picture points the guns at each other, to further contribute to the image of bad guys shooting it out with the police.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:57:31 PM EDT
that pic of the 40cal fmj round, well thats not a 40, thats a 45
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 9:41:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
that pic of the 40cal fmj round, well thats not a 40, thats a 45



Pssssst....it looks scarier than a mere .40 round. That's why the Glob put it in the picture....


Link Posted: 2/18/2006 10:12:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/18/2006 10:44:58 PM EDT by bobbyjack]
Please don't tell them about the CZ57!!!


Bob
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 10:31:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/19/2006 4:31:47 PM EDT by txgp17]
My street address
Monday, January 17, 2005

The Honorable Senator Elizabeth Dole
SENATE RUSSELL BUILDING
ROOM 120
WASHINGTON DC 20510-0001

Dear Senator Dole:
The purpose of this letter is to provide you with factual information on an emerging 2nd Amendment issue. In the future you will, if you have not already, be hearing about a pistol sold in America called the FN Five-seveN. This new pistol is manufactured by FN (Fabrique Nationale) Manufacturing LLC based in Columbia, SC, a company with a long history of manufacturing firearms for Civilians and presently a contract supplier of weapons to America's Armed Forces. Anti-gun groups are dubbing the Five-seveN as the new "Cop-killer-gun." On January 14th former Presidential Press Secretary Jim Brady called for aggressive action against the Five-seveN. On January 15th, The Florida Department of Law Enforcement issued a memorandum warning agents about a the Five-seveN. What is it that has gotten the Anti-gunners and Law Enforcement in such a tizzy? The FN Five-seveN, with proper ammunition, can penetrate some forms of body armor and it is that fact that has everyone so excited.

Police use body armor designed around standards set by the Nation Institute of Justice and several levels of protection are available. Threat level IIIA is the highest protection level in concealable armor. It is intended for protection from high-velocity and high-energy handgun rounds such as the 9mm (fired from a rifle) and .44 Magnum. IIIA armor is typically constructed of 30 or more layers of Kevlar and is designed to stop a conventional bullet traveling at 1,400 feet per second. The Five-seveN's bullet travels at 2,132 feet per second, far faster than those of the 9mm or .44 Magnum, aiding its ability to penetrate body armor.

There is one thing that all body armor manufactures have in common. They issue a disclaimer with every single vest sold that reads: "NO Armor is 100% Bullet-PROOF." As a matter of fact, IIIA body armor can be penetrated by rifle bullets, unusual high velocity pistol bullets, pistol ammo fired from a rifle barrel, armor piercing ammunition, sharp-edged or pointed instruments, or other unusual ammunition or situations. There are a vast number of pistols sold in America than can penetrate level IIIA body armor so the Five-seveN is not in a class by itself. Some of these pistol calibers are: the 454 Casull, 475 Linebaugh, 50 Action Express, 500 S&W Magnum, and the 500 Linebaugh. These cartridges penetrate IIIA armor with conventional bullets constructed of copper and lead. The Five-seveN is designed to penetrate IIIA body armor with a special armor piercing projectile, designated SS190. You will hear about incredible feats of body armor penetration by the Five-seveN accomplished by a special 5.7x28mm cartridge specifically designed to penetrate NATO “CRISAT” & NIJ IIIA armor. What gun control advocates will fail to mention in these pretenses are that true armor piercing pistol ammunition is not available to civilians by law.

The SS190 armor piercing ammunition uses a pointed steel and aluminum core bullet that weighs just 31 grains, so it would take 226 of these bullets to weigh just one pound and it is about 1/5th the weight of typical 9mm projectile. This special ammunition is presently not available to civilians because the manufacturing and sale of armor piercing ammunition for handguns larger than .22 caliber has been prohibited by Federal Law for more than 10 years under Title 18, United States Code, Chapter 44 as amended by Public Law 103-322, THE VIOLENT CRIME CONTROL AND LAW ENFORCEMENT ACT OF 1994 (enacted September 13, 1994). This is the same law that gave birth to the now defunct "Assault Weapon Ban" and while the provisions dealing assault weapons expired, those prohibiting armor piercing handgun ammunition did not.

If armor piercing ammunition were made available, almost any handgun made would be able to penetrate IIIA body armor. Senator, all that is needed is the enforcement of laws that already exist. There is nothing special about the FN Five-seveN and new laws that restrict the 2nd Amendment rights of individuals are uncalled for. Our Nation’s Laws already prohibit possession of handguns by convicted criminals, and armor piercing projectiles for those handguns is prohibited as well. So I say to you, please do not lend your support to any political movement that seeks to infringe upon my 2nd Amendment rights.

Respectfully Submitted,
txgp17
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 5:37:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

Originally Posted By 3-gun:
I think I would worry more about a cz-52.
I also like the way they give pic's and all the spec's so homee knows what to get.



"Dats tight, man."



Remeber that rap star wanna-be with an FiveseveN?

"Yo, I gots a new gun. An FN with baby AK bullets!"

Link Posted: 2/19/2006 5:47:07 AM EDT
Who here feels confident they could put a COM hit on at 650 ft?

Not me..With a pistol.

I'm surprised they didn't say the bullets are guided cop-seekers.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 5:55:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
Who here feels confident they could put a COM hit on at 650 ft?

Not me..With a pistol.

I'm surprised they didn't say the bullets are guided cop-seekers.



They are. That's why you have a laser sight. Just like the Air Forces uses to guide in their bombs!
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 6:07:50 AM EDT
This news must come as a blessing to the anti-gun shit stains in the MA legislature and Boston city officials.

A bill to ban the Five-Seven (and 50 BMG), had been submitted to the State House some time ago, now this BS just gives them more spin to proceed with the bill.



www.mass.gov/legis/bills/senate/st02/st02113.htm

"AN ACT PROHIBITING THE SALE, TRANSFER OR POSSESSION OF “COP KILLER” HANDGUNS AND HIGH-POWERED RIFLES

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives in General Court assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:

SECTION 1.

Section 121 of chapter 140 of the General Laws, as most recently amended by section 3 of chapter 150 of the acts of 2004, is hereby amended by striking out the first sentence of the definition of “Ammunition” and inserting in place thereof the following sentence:- “Ammunition” cartridges or cartridge cases, except .50 BMG cartridges, primers (igniter), bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm, rifle or shotgun.

SECTION 2. Said section 121 of said chapter 140, as so appearing, is hereby further amended by striking out, in line 17, the words “and (viii)” and inserting in place thereof the following words:-

“(viii) Herstal Five-seveN pistol; and (ix)”

SECTION 3. Said section 121 of said chapter 140, as so appearing, is hereby further amended by adding the following 2 definitions:-

“.05 BMG rifle”, a center fire rifle capable of firing a .50 BMC cartridge that is not an assault weapon or a machine gun.

“.05 BMG cartridge”, a cartridge designed and intended to be fired from a center fire rifle and meets the following criteria: (i) it measures 5.54 inches from the base to the tip of the bullet; (ii) the bullet diameter for the cartridge measures from .510 to, and including, .511 inch; (iii) the case base diameter for the cartridge measures from .800 inch to, and including, .804 inch; and (iv) the cartridge case length is 3.91 inches.

SECTION 4. Said chapter 140 is hereby further amended by adding the following section:-

Section 131Q. Whoever sells, offers for sale, transfers or possesses a .05 BMG rifle or .05 BMG cartridge shall be punished, for a first offense, by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than 1 year nor more than 10 years, or by both such fine and imprisonment, and for a second offense, by a fine of not less than $5,000 nor more than $15,000 or by imprisonment for not less than 5 years nor more than 15 years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to: (i) the possession by a law enforcement officer for purposes of law enforcement; or (ii) the possession by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving such a weapon or cartridge from such agency upon retirement."

The idea of banning both the Five-Seven and 50 BMG is just another example of the antics of the gun grabbing brainiacs in this state, but what really pisses me off is the parts highlited in red... especially section (ii).


Also, the article doesn't mention that posession of the Five-Seven is already illeagal in MA because it's not on the advisory boards "approved" roster, nor is it on the AG's consumer safety roster of "certified firearms.
The mag capacity alone will insure that the Five- Seven cannot be sold in MA.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 6:19:22 AM EDT
They always forget the ole CZ-52, only $100 and the same performance.

Link Posted: 2/19/2006 9:56:30 AM EDT
" '.05' BMG"?

Wow, that must be the real "mouse gun"
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