The Box O' Truth - 20 Gauge Shotgun - Lots of Pics - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Box O' Truth - 20 Gauge Shotgun - Lots of Pics (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 2/17/2006 10:32:48 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Again thanks.

How about a 28 gauge

With birdshot at 30 yards...

Posted: 2/17/2006 10:39:39 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
And, shooting stuff is fun!

seems to be the recurring theme throughout all of your articles.

thanks for doing the writeup. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's learned heaps from your contributions.

Posted: 2/17/2006 10:48:52 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Again thanks.

How about a 28 gauge

With birdshot at 30 yards...

You must do this. 28 guage, 30 yds, Texas hunting clothing.

Then post pics at DUh!

Posted: 2/17/2006 10:49:11 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
The box o' truth is even painted.

You, sir, are a true professional!

Yeah, I had just re-built it from the beating it took from the rifles. Now I have to re-build it again and repaint it.

My work is never done.

Posted: 2/17/2006 10:57:36 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Again thanks.

How about a 28 gauge

Already been done.

Posted: 2/17/2006 10:57:43 AM EDT

[#6]

You sure drink a lot of milk.

Where did you get all of the jugs?

Posted: 2/17/2006 10:59:01 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Well, I can tell you that I presently have mine loaded with 3 inch Magnum, 00, Plated, Remington Premier Buckshot.

Painless: FWIW I have taken several deer with that same load. Very devastating to the vitals (all of them!). All shots have been made between 30yrds to 45yrds and all the deer dropped without taking more than one step. I always look forward to your posts, thank you.

Thanks for the info.

I have always heard good things about Plated Buckshot. Definitely worth the cost.

Posted: 2/17/2006 11:00:49 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
You sure drink a lot of milk.

Where did you get all of the jugs?

I do save some milk jugs, but finally just gave up and went to Walley-world and bought 24 gallons of water this morning.

Turns out I almost didn't get enough.

At 62 cents a gallon, it isn't hardly worth the effort to fill empty jugs with water.

Posted: 2/17/2006 11:19:44 AM EDT

[#9]

Those pics are amazing! Awesome job, whoever took them!
Talk about setting the record straight. Using jeans to simulate clothing, I would've never thought of that!

The 20 didn't do so bad. My father has a 20 ga side by side like the one you used, not sure the manufacturer, but it's a good gun. I'll stick with the good 'ol Mossberg 500A and 00 buck shot. I'm worried about slugs punching through the wall- I know to keep in mind what is beyond my target, I just don't know how I'd really do in such a situation, I've never had to stare down an armed intruder.

Posted: 2/17/2006 11:28:16 AM EDT

[#10]

w00T!!!

Another classis BOT thread.

Thanks OP.

CMOS

Posted: 2/17/2006 11:35:07 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Again thanks.

How about a 28 gauge

Already been done.

Dick Cheney's Lawyer of Truth?

Posted: 2/17/2006 11:41:47 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Those pics are amazing! Awesome job, whoever took them!

Many thanks.

My shooting buddy Tman is usually my photographer. He and I have been shooting together for around 30 years.

Some folks have asked what "trick" we use to catch some of the photos.

I count, "3, 2, 1, Zero", and fire on Zero. Tman clicks on zero.

Sometimes we catch a good one.

(Like that 12 gauge slug.)

Posted: 2/17/2006 11:42:31 AM EDT

[#13]

The daa I've seen seems to back you up that the lower end of the buckshot spectrum (#1 buck and # 4 buck in particular were the ones I saw tested) has good properties for defense loads.

It seems that you've confirmed that they do indeed have sufficient penetration to stop an aggressor, Have you done the drwall test with the smaller buckshot though? I'd assume it would be slightly better in terms of not overpenetrating then its larger brethren.

Also what about "reduced recoil" tactical loads. I hear a lot of malarky about those, one camp says its less oomph directed at the aggressor, another says that the only downside is slightly worse patterning at ranges you wouldnt use a shotgun at anyway?

Posted: 2/17/2006 11:44:46 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Again thanks.

How about a 28 gauge

Already been done.

Dick Cheney's Lawyer of Truth?

I only wish I could get some lawyers to get in the old Box.

Talk about "shooting stuff is fun".

Posted: 2/17/2006 11:51:29 AM EDT

[#15]

Well done. You may date my sister.

Posted: 2/17/2006 11:52:10 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
The data I've seen seems to back you up that the lower end of the buckshot spectrum (#1 buck and # 4 buck in particular were the ones I saw tested) has good properties for defense loads.

Interesting you should say that.......The data I've seen says the exact opposite.

The FBI recommends only 0, 00, and 000 Buckshot. Their contention is that smaller Buckshot doesn't penetrate enough to be good stoppers.

It seems that you've confirmed that they do indeed have sufficient penetration to stop an aggressor, Have you done the drwall test with the smaller buckshot though? I'd assume it would be slightly better in terms of not overpenetrating then its larger brethren.

I have shot smaller buckshot. Look on my site: www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm

Also what about "reduced recoil" tactical loads. I hear a lot of malarky about those, one camp says its less oomph directed at the aggressor, another says that the only downside is slightly worse patterning at ranges you wouldnt use a shotgun at anyway?

Again, look at my site. My tests show that the reduced buckshot loads have tighter patterns at home-defense distances. But no mistake about it; less recoil means less terminal energy.

You bring up another interesting point. I have found that many things we "have all heard for years" are sometimes wrong.

There is only one way to see what will happen.....shoot and see what happens.

Posted: 2/17/2006 11:53:02 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Well done. You may date my sister.

Many thanks, but my girlfriend would object.

Posted: 2/17/2006 11:57:25 AM EDT

[#18]

you really ought to drink that bottled water first and fill up the jugs with tap water

I'm a cheapskate, can't you tell?

Posted: 2/17/2006 12:06:52 PM EDT

[#19]

I love you OP

Posted: 2/17/2006 12:11:39 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
I love you OP

I'm sure you mean that in the most manly, straight way possible.

Thanks.

Posted: 2/17/2006 12:21:36 PM EDT

[#21]

Excellent and informative, cheers O_P!

Posted: 2/17/2006 12:43:08 PM EDT

[#22]

Thanks O_P for the information and the show. you guys rock!

Posted: 2/17/2006 1:56:46 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Excellent and informative, cheers O_P!

Thanks.

Posted: 2/17/2006 2:43:12 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Thanks O_P for the information and the show. you guys rock!

You're welcome.

We enjoy doing it.

Posted: 2/17/2006 2:53:46 PM EDT

[#25]

I have hunted for years with both 12 and 20 ga shotguns. I have used both on deer, rabbits, pheasants, quail, ducks and canadian geese.

I have always found the 20 gauge to be more than enough gun on all the animals listed above. I've used 20 slugs on 5 deer and never had a problem. I used the average Foster style slug and never had a failure of the slug. Thru and thru penetration on all but one deer, ranges were from 20 yds to 100 yds, the 100 yd shot killed the doe with one shot, and the slug was found between the skin and the ribs on the far side of the deer.

When bird hunting, I always used #6 shot or larger. #6 or #4 shot on pheasants, depending upon the time of the year and the expected shot distance, #4's on ducks, and #2 shot, BB or when lead shot was allowed for waterfowl, #2 buck on geese. #2 lead shot will take a goose at 50 yds if you lead the goose correctly and hit the head or neck.

For the next test with the 20 gauge and the of the Box O'Truth try using #4 shot or larger, including some Hevi Shot loaded shells. The Hevi Shot is heavier and harder than the equivalent sized lead shot. I would think, from experience only, that #4 or #2 shot or #2 buckshot will have a greater amount of penetration than the #8 shot that you used. #8 shot does not have enough mass per pellet to penetrate deeply, even at short distance.

Personally, I would not have a problem using a 20 gauge shotgun loaded with #2 shot or larger pellets for defending myself.

Posted: 2/17/2006 2:55:13 PM EDT

[#26]

OP, I was just trying to explain the difference between birdshot and buckshot performance on humans this afternoon. Very timely article I must say. Thank you!

Posted: 2/17/2006 2:58:08 PM EDT

[#27]

Cool, thanks!

Posted: 2/17/2006 3:04:04 PM EDT

[#28]

Good Test!

Quoted:
2. I was surprised by the penetration of the #3 Buckshot in the 20 gauge. It performed much better than I would have expected. I would not be too quick to discount Buckshot in a 20 Gauge for home defense.

Was it nickle or copper plated shot by any chance? plated shot stays rounder and penetrates deeprer than unplated shot.

3. 00 Buck in the 12 Gauge was excellent.

4. The Slug in the 20 did not perform very well. For some reason, it broke up into small pieces.

the impact velocity exceeded the design threashold of the slug. try a Brennekee slug and you'll get more penetration. My dad uses Lightfield 20GA slugs on Whitetails and gets complete penetration.

Posted: 2/17/2006 3:07:52 PM EDT

[#29]

Thanks O P. Your threads are always educational and informative to us novices out here. The wife and I are looking into exactly which gauge shotgun to get the boy for his birthday, and this is great timing.

Thanks again.

Chris

Posted: 2/17/2006 3:14:46 PM EDT

[#30]

tag

Posted: 2/17/2006 3:15:05 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
I have hunted for years with both 12 and 20 ga shotguns. I have used both on deer, rabbits, pheasants, quail, ducks and canadian geese.

I have always found the 20 gauge to be more than enough gun on all the animals listed above. I've used 20 slugs on 5 deer and never had a problem. I used the average Foster style slug and never had a failure of the slug. Thru and thru penetration on all but one deer, ranges were from 20 yds to 100 yds, the 100 yd shot killed the doe with one shot, and the slug was found between the skin and the ribs on the far side of the deer.

When bird hunting, I always used #6 shot or larger. #6 or #4 shot on pheasants, depending upon the time of the year and the expected shot distance, #4's on ducks, and #2 shot, BB or when lead shot was allowed for waterfowl, #2 buck on geese. #2 lead shot will take a goose at 50 yds if you lead the goose correctly and hit the head or neck.

Thanks for the information.

I usually use #6 shot in my 12 gauge for quail, as I find that it gives me some extra range.

I'll have to try some in the 20 gauge.

Posted: 2/17/2006 3:18:55 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
OP, I was just trying to explain the difference between birdshot and buckshot performance on humans this afternoon. Very timely article I must say. Thank you!

You might be surprised at how many questions I get from www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm regarding the use of birdshot for home defense.

People see the big, nasty wounds it makes on the surface and think, "It must be devastating as a defense round". But it's not.

To be effective, the rounds must reach the vital organs of the bad guy. That takes around 10 inches of penetration. Birdshot will not do that.

No reason not to use the best ammo available, is there?

Posted: 2/17/2006 3:20:13 PM EDT

[#33]

Those are some great pictures. You and Tman really have your timing on.

Nice test, thanks!

Posted: 2/17/2006 3:32:43 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Good Test!

Quoted:
2. I was surprised by the penetration of the #3 Buckshot in the 20 gauge. It performed much better than I would have expected. I would not be too quick to discount Buckshot in a 20 Gauge for home defense.

Was it nickle or copper plated shot by any chance? plated shot stays rounder and penetrates deeprer than unplated shot.

You are correct about the plated shot.

But this was pure lead shot. That makes the penetration even more surprising.

3. 00 Buck in the 12 Gauge was excellent.

4. The Slug in the 20 did not perform very well. For some reason, it broke up into small pieces.

the impact velocity exceeded the design threashold of the slug. try a Brennekee slug and you'll get more penetration. My dad uses Lightfield 20GA slugs on Whitetails and gets complete penetration.

Yep, I think you are right.

Maybe at longer range, where the velocity is lower, the slugs would have performed better.

But, after all, we were testing a "home defense" situation. That means 15 feet or less in most cases.

Posted: 2/17/2006 3:41:58 PM EDT

[#35]

Very good test OP.

I still would like to see some pistol .cal carbine tests.

Posted: 2/17/2006 3:45:17 PM EDT

[#36]

great post as always. Thanks alot.

Posted: 2/17/2006 3:49:59 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Thanks O P. Your threads are always educational and informative to us novices out here. The wife and I are looking into exactly which gauge shotgun to get the boy for his birthday, and this is great timing.

Thanks again.

Chris

Some folks get a 20 gauge for a young shooter thinking that it is "only for kids".

A 20 Gauge is a fine shotgun and perfectly adequate for most game birds. I find it a true pleasure to use on upland birds.

Get him one. He will be able to use it all his life.

Posted: 2/17/2006 3:56:14 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Quoted:
You sure drink a lot of milk.

Where did you get all of the jugs?

I do save some milk jugs, but finally just gave up and went to Walley-world and bought 24 gallons of water this morning.

Turns out I almost didn't get enough.

At 62 cents a gallon, it isn't hardly worth the effort to fill empty jugs with water.

In the spirit of all the Wal-mart threads:

"What are you going to do with all that water? "

did you get ammo at the same time

?

Thanks for the info - want to see more M1 Carbine (and other pistol round rifles) tests

Quoted:
Very good test OP.

I still would like to see some pistol .cal carbine tests.

Posted: 2/17/2006 4:06:48 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Very good test OP.

I still would like to see some pistol .cal carbine tests.

A lot of folks seem interested in pistol caliber carbine tests.

I do not have any of those weapons, as I do not particularily favor them.

A carbine barrel, being longer, will give a slight increase in velocity to a pistol round.

But it will still be a "long barreled pistol" and will never even approach a rifle round.

Rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols. Even long barreled pistols.

Posted: 2/17/2006 4:06:50 PM EDT

[#40]

O_P

Did you ever shoot that NEW Federal LE reduced recoil 00 buck with the Flight Control wads I sent you?

Did I miss the results?

Posted: 2/17/2006 4:09:45 PM EDT

[#41]

I LOVE Box O' Truth Threads! Awesome!

Posted: 2/17/2006 4:21:52 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
O_P

Did you ever shoot that NEW Federal LE reduced recoil 00 buck with the Flight Control wads I sent you?

Did I miss the results?

I just checked and found that I still have them.

I started to shoot them today and switched to the standard Buckshot instead.

Sure sorry that I missed an opportunity to try them. It would have been a good time for a trial.

I will try them next time. Sorry for the missed opportunity.

Posted: 2/17/2006 4:36:33 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
I LOVE Box O' Truth Threads! Awesome!

Thanks.

I enjoy doing them.

Posted: 2/17/2006 4:43:17 PM EDT

[#44]

Threads like this is why I LOVE ArfCom! Thanks Old_Painless

Posted: 2/17/2006 4:45:34 PM EDT

[#45]

Another excellent post. Thanks Old Painless.

This is particularly interesting to me as I'm thinking about getting a 20 gauge for home defense.

Posted: 2/17/2006 4:49:27 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Quoted:
O_P

Did you ever shoot that NEW Federal LE reduced recoil 00 buck with the Flight Control wads I sent you?

Did I miss the results?

I just checked and found that I still have them.

I started to shoot them today and switched to the standard Buckshot instead.

Sure sorry that I missed an opportunity to try them. It would have been a good time for a trial.

I will try them next time. Sorry for the missed opportunity.

Test them for pattern though like you did with your other shotgun test, you could add the results to that as an addendum. I was hoping to see how they compared from your setup to the other loads you tried.

Posted: 2/17/2006 4:59:04 PM EDT

[#47]

A short barreled 20ga will kick as much if not more then a long barreled 12. Or least I've noticed, and my friend will often complain that my .20ga 870 with a 18 inch barrel kicks more then their .12s

I'd imagine a 18 inch barreled .12ga would kick like a mule though

Btw IMO a .20Ga with buckshot is more then enough stopping power if you make a good hit. My friend hunts hogs with one and he's never needed more then one shot on emm with it. It stops emm every time.

Btw VERY nice website and tests props to you man thats some good stuff.

Posted: 2/17/2006 5:02:39 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Threads like this is why I LOVE ArfCom! Thanks Old_Painless

Yeah. Me too.

Thanks.

Posted: 2/17/2006 5:10:33 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Another excellent post. Thanks Old Painless.

This is particularly interesting to me as I'm thinking about getting a 20 gauge for home defense.

In all honestly, if I was buying a shotgun for home defense, I'd sure get a 12 Gauge.

They cost the same (or less) than 20 gauge shotguns.

The ammo selection is about 10 times better than any other gauge.

And, they are the most powerful.

As stated earlier, "I never met a man that was in a gun fight what wished that he had a smaller gun. Ever."

Posted: 2/17/2006 5:43:53 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
A short barreled 20ga will kick as much if not more then a long barreled 12. Or least I've noticed, and my friend will often complain that my .20ga 870 with a 18 inch barrel kicks more then their .12s

I'd imagine a 18 inch barreled .12ga would kick like a mule though

Btw IMO a .20Ga with buckshot is more then enough stopping power if you make a good hit. My friend hunts hogs with one and he's never needed more then one shot on emm with it. It stops emm every time.

Btw VERY nice website and tests props to you man thats some good stuff.

The percieved "kick" is a function of recoil and firearm weight. Barrel length is actually not a factor, except as relates to firearm weight.

A light weight firearm will seem to kick more than a heavier one.

And, we need to be careful of "more than enough" statements.

More is almost always better, when trying to stop a bad guy.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Box O' Truth - 20 Gauge Shotgun - Lots of Pics (Page 2 of 3)

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