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Posted: 2/17/2006 2:55:11 AM EDT
I read one of the articles on the Home page and apparently a man is being charged with assault with a deadly weapon for shooting another man who had broken into his home and ran off with some electronics. If the "evil psycho with a gun who thought for some reason he could try to keep his own posessions from being jacked right in front of him" is found guilty of these charges, or something less serious, i'll profess a certain curiosity... what exactly are we allowed to do in order to protect our own posessions if given a chance. Must we beg the theif to put our stuff down? If we chase after him is there a maximum following distance we must keep behind? There was a guy who lives in the same area as me and he was in the newspaper for choking a car theif to death when he came out and found someone breaking into his car. He was dismissed of any charges though. I guess some of my Q's are rhetorical but i really would like to know what actions we're allowed to take under these circumstances.

if anyone has any experiences with this matter i'd love to hear about them!
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:09:30 AM EDT
I have been told by more than one policeman (off the record) that if I ever do shoot someone in my home, make sure they are dead. Easier to explain what happened to the police when only one side has a voice.

Dead criminals cant sue for damages either.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:11:25 AM EDT
depends on what state you live in...


some states just dont get it...
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:12:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RockoZ:
I read one of the articles on the Home page and apparently a man is being charged with assault with a deadly weapon for shooting another man who had broken into his home and ran off with some electronics. If the "evil psycho with a gun who thought for some reason he could try to keep his own posessions from being jacked right in front of him" is found guilty of these charges, or something less serious, i'll profess a certain curiosity... what exactly are we allowed to do in order to protect our own posessions if given a chance. Must we beg the theif to put our stuff down? If we chase after him is there a maximum following distance we must keep behind? There was a guy who lives in the same area as me and he was in the newspaper for choking a car theif to death when he came out and found someone breaking into his car. He was dismissed of any charges though. I guess some of my Q's are rhetorical but i really would like to know what actions we're allowed to take under these circumstances.

if anyone has any experiences with this matter i'd love to hear about them!



Holy crap...that is the craziest thing I have read today! It is early and this is ARFCOM.
Ban hands........ for the children
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:15:29 AM EDT
Yep, dead men don't testify.

"Officer, I can't say anything about events this evening without talking to a lawyer..."

"Your Honor, my client was in fear for his life when he fired the four rounds that struck Mr. Washington's body. It was dark, he saw an imposing figure in his home and thought Mr. Washington had a gun."

Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:16:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macro:


Dead criminals cant sue for damages either.




Their families often do though.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:31:09 AM EDT
You can shoot a burglar-but you must be able to convince the court that you were in fear of physical injury or death. And I am sure there are many objects in and around your house which if found in the recently deceased burglar's possession would constitute a justifiable fear for your life.

NEVER talk to ANY law enforcement official-even if they tell you it was a "good shoot" and they seem to be on your side. You have no duty to say anything to a cop whatsoever.

Same goes with any shooting. A very good friend of mine killed a man in New Mexico. Very justified shoot, many witnesses. But he didn't stick around to talk to the po-po. He had no duty to do so. And he still hasn't.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:39:09 AM EDT
Here in FL it is very simple. We can shoot to kill. No questions asked, no criminal or civil charges. Castle Doctrine My Ass!
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:41:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macro:
I have been told by more than one policeman (off the record) that if I ever do shoot someone in my home, make sure they are dead. Easier to explain what happened to the police when only one side has a voice.

Dead criminals cant sue for damages either.



But their families sure can.

"Make sure they are dead" is a pretty stupid idea.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:53:03 AM EDT
I always like to shout "You sure got a purty mouth"
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:54:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RockoZ:
I read one of the articles on the Home page and apparently a man is being charged with assault with a deadly weapon for shooting another man who had broken into his home and ran off with some electronics. If the "evil psycho with a gun who thought for some reason he could try to keep his own posessions from being jacked right in front of him" is found guilty of these charges, or something less serious, i'll profess a certain curiosity... what exactly are we allowed to do in order to protect our own posessions if given a chance. Must we beg the theif to put our stuff down? If we chase after him is there a maximum following distance we must keep behind? There was a guy who lives in the same area as me and he was in the newspaper for choking a car theif to death when he came out and found someone breaking into his car. He was dismissed of any charges though. I guess some of my Q's are rhetorical but i really would like to know what actions we're allowed to take under these circumstances.

if anyone has any experiences with this matter i'd love to hear about them!



Lethal force is justified IF AND ONLY IF you have a REASONABLE fear that your life or the life of an innocent third party is in EMMINENT danger.

If you find a theif in your house trying to take your television, you can confront him with a weapon and order him to stop. If he fails to comply, you CANNOT shoot him. If he turns and runs away, you CANNOT stop him. If he pulls out a knife and comes at you, light him up like a Christmas tree.

Shooting a guy dead because he is trying to steal your television is an invitation to a world of legal trouble that you DO NOT want or need.

If you are forced to shoot, you fire to STOP THE THREAT. Whether or not the threatening person dies is irrelevant. You are shooting to STOP THEIR HOSTILE ACTIONS. After the threat is over, immediately try to get the threat medical help.

The bottom line is this: If you have to pull the trigger on your weapon while it is aimed at another human being, it will be the worst moment in your life IF you are shooting someone who poses a lethal threat to you. IF, however, you shoot someone who is NOT a lethal threat, it will be merely the first step on a path of horror and pain that you can't possibly imagine.

Killing someone or doing them grevious harm is a terrible option. Only resort to it when it is your ONLY option. If you kill someone who was really trying to kill you, it will most likely be obvious to the officers who respond. After all, if there is a 4 time looser laying dead in your living room with a stolen gun in his hand and a bullet from his stolen gun lodged in the wall near where your kids were sleeping, it isn't going to take them very long to figure out that he wasn't in your house at 3 AM to sell you insurance.

But if they find an unarmed man in your living room who appears to have been shot while trying to get away, you can expect them to crawl up in your colon and make camp.

You have to examine this from a "what do I have to lose" mindset. If you do not shoot someone who is trying to kill you, you can loose your life, as can your wife and children. If you do not shoot someone whose hands are full of television, what do you loose? A TV.

You can buy another TV for a hell of a lot less than what it will cost you if you shoot the bastard....
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:56:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 3:57:19 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
Yep, dead men don't testify.

"Officer, I can't say anything about events this evening without talking to a lawyer..."

"Your Honor, my client was in fear for his life when he fired the four rounds that struck Mr. Washington's body. It was dark, he saw an imposing figure in his home and thought Mr. Washington had a gun."




And such a statement is likely to get you in deep trouble.

If you can clearly articulate a threat, you are pretty safe.

But "thinking" you saw a "threat" in the friggin darkness is a damn good way to end up with a manslaughter conviction.

If you shoot somebody, you had better make damn sure you can clearly spell out why they were a threat.

And I guaran-damn-tee you that if you shoot somebody and they cease to be a threat, and then you go over and "finish them off" because "dead men tell no tales" that you will be sharing a cell with a 400 pound black man named "Tiny" who will make you his personal pincushion.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:58:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 3:59:11 AM EDT by FieroLoki]

Originally Posted By pieceofstink:


Same goes with any shooting. A very good friend of mine killed a man in New Mexico. Very justified shoot, many witnesses. But he didn't stick around to talk to the po-po. He had no duty to do so. And he still hasn't.



So he killed someone and fled the scene and nothing happened? No talking to police? Lawyer? anyone? Maybe I read that wrong, but thats what i got from it.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:01:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
Yep, dead men don't testify.

"Officer, I can't say anything about events this evening without talking to a lawyer..."

"Your Honor, my client was in fear for his life when he fired the four rounds that struck Mr. Washington's body. It was dark, he saw an imposing figure in his home and thought Mr. Washington had a gun."




And such a statement is likely to get you in deep trouble.

If you can clearly articulate a threat, you are pretty safe.

But "thinking" you saw a "threat" in the friggin darkness is a damn good way to end up with a manslaughter conviction.

If you shoot somebody, you had better make damn sure you can clearly spell out why they were a threat.

And I guaran-damn-tee you that if you shoot somebody and they cease to be a threat, and then you go over and "finish them off" because "dead men tell no tales" that you will be sharing a cell with a 400 pound black man named "Tiny" who will make you his personal pincushion.



See, my thoughts, kick the TV bits outta the way and replace with a rusty screwdriver from the basement. "He dashed the TV to the ground, took a weapon from pocket, then lunged with said weapon. I said stop (*) times, and then fired to protect my life".
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:01:09 AM EDT
You VA guys need to come to Texas.
IF a guy is on your property at night, or in your house, the state assumes he was there to do you harm. Although it may be a terrible thing to deal with mentally, legally, shooting to stop the guy until he is dead is legal.

TXL
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:03:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 4:05:08 AM EDT by rjroberts]
Rocko. No simple answer other than "It depends where it happens (State)." In some states, NJ, for example (used to be, don't know if they changed it, but I'll bet they made it worse) you are expected to retreat to the extent you must crawl out the back windo of your house. Yes, that's not made up. I remember the case. There was no doubt about the perp. The homeowner shot an armed burglar (maybe it became robbery at the point of the confrontation). But he was convicted of manslaughter, and some asshole NJ judge said, "You could have crawled out the bathroom window!" Yes, that's what he said!! I resided in NJ at the time and remember it well from the newspapers.

On the other hand (yes, I know, you have 6 fingers). In Florida, we not only have the castle doctrine cleanly in law, it has existed by construction in case law for a long time. If someone breaks into your home, regardless of day or night, he is considered armed under the law (that was established in case law). So, you are dealing with an "armed" intruder - and frequently they really are, so it is rarely an issue. No requirement to retreat, again, finally codified. While you may not shoot a fleeing perp (as in running out the front door), someone running to the back of your house can be shot, even if in the back! Reason: he still represents a danger to you or your family; his lack of knowledge of your house is his own tough luck.

In TX, deadly force defense extends to the outside of your home, on your property, AT NIGHT.

So, there's a wide variation in laws. Check your local laws. I believe WA is a "shall-issue" state, and frequently those have books written by an attorney, specifically to help CWL/CHL/CCW holders with the details and they cover this kind of situation. If you don't have a good one, it might actually be worth your while to spend $200. and sit down with an experienced attorney in your jurisdiction and ask the questions you posed. You might want to give him/her a list in advance for research, and ask for a letter afterwards""We discussed the circumstances..etc." It could be useful if you were forced into an incident, and went to trial. If your responsibility and judgement were questioned - you did the responsible thing. SOme may try to twist that into pre-meditation, however, but when consultation with an expert regarding technical, legal issues becomes a problem, then it's time to shoot everyone.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:05:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
"Make sure they are dead" is a pretty stupid idea.



Not my idea...just passing along what I have heard.
Personally, I cant see killing someone over property loss.
If someone wants my TV, I am not going to kill them to stop them.
If someone threatens me or my wife, mag dump to center mass.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:07:53 AM EDT
The only reason I wouldn't shoot an intruder dead would be so I could beat the shit out of him.

Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:18:42 AM EDT
THat just seems so fucking stupid to be able to let the person get away. Obviously if they start running away or whatever they dont get pelted with lead but if they are standing in my house and I run accross them they best fucking look like a cute little puppy harmless or their ass is done. Im not going to give them the chance to free up their hands and do harm to myself and then g/f.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:19:41 AM EDT
Bring out the gimp.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:22:35 AM EDT
Dose anyone know the legality if a minor shot, stabbed, beat, ext .a home invader or someone who would do them bodily harm in the state of Florida? Is it the same as adult?
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:24:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:

Originally Posted By pieceofstink:


Same goes with any shooting. A very good friend of mine killed a man in New Mexico. Very justified shoot, many witnesses. But he didn't stick around to talk to the po-po. He had no duty to do so. And he still hasn't.



So he killed someone and fled the scene and nothing happened? No talking to police? Lawyer? anyone? Maybe I read that wrong, but thats what i got from it.



Me too.

And that would be a lie.

You shoot somebody and leave the scene, you end up with an armed and dangerous APB on your butt. You can plead the 5th ammendment and refuse to make a statement, but the cops ARE going to investigate and they ARE going to want to talk to you.

Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:25:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PzIvF2s:
See, my thoughts, kick the TV bits outta the way and replace with a rusty screwdriver from the basement. "He dashed the TV to the ground, took a weapon from pocket, then lunged with said weapon. I said stop (*) times, and then fired to protect my life".



That would be a rediculous thing to do.

You might get away with it....but if the cops found out you would most DEFINATELY face a murder charge.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:31:45 AM EDT
[sarcasm] The way I see it....if a burglar broke into my home, i'll do a Dick Chenney on them with the double bbl shotty. Then i'd wait 24 hrs for a qualified Arfcom team member to do my PR. [sarcasm off].
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:33:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TxLewis:
You VA guys need to come to Texas.



Been there. It is a nice state.

Plus, you have Taco Cabanas, which is quite possibly the coolest thing EVER.



IF a guy is on your property at night, or in your house, the state assumes he was there to do you harm.



We are trying to get laws like that passed in Virginia. Right now the Virginia SC has decided that self-defense is an affirmative defense. In an honest to goodness case of self defense, it isn't hard to make a self-defense arguement.



Although it may be a terrible thing to deal with mentally, legally, shooting to stop the guy until he is dead is legal.

TXL



You have to consider ALL the ramifications here. If a guy breaks in your house at 3 AM and you hit him with the Surefire and identify that he has a gun in your hand and start to shoot, you are on solid legal ground.

If you shoot him and he stops fighting and then you walk up to him and put one in between his eyes execution style, you have just crossed the line into dangerous territory. In most jurisdictions, you can be charged for murder for such a thing. (Whether or not the prosecutors and police would be inclined to charge you would depend on lots of factors) You would also make one hell of a target for a civil lawsuit in state courts. If the state you are in has enacted Castle laws (which are WONDERFUL) you can still be sued in Federal court for violating the dead guy's civil rights.

When you pull the trigger a world of sh*t is going to descend upon you. If you don't HAVE to pull the trigger, don't. If you do, don't hesitate.

Killing somebody SUCKS. Living with having killed somebody SUCKS. Resort to lethal force as a last resort when you are genuinely in fear for your life, and odds are you won't end up in legal trouble or with long term emotional consequences....
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:34:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macro:
Not my idea...just passing along what I have heard.



I have heard it before too.

It is a damn stupid piece of advice.



Personally, I cant see killing someone over property loss.
If someone wants my TV, I am not going to kill them to stop them.
If someone threatens me or my wife, mag dump to center mass.



My feelings exactly.

If they want my TV, I am not willing to risk a firefight to stop them. If they want to harm my family, they will do so over my dead body.

There are some things I AM willing to kill for. My TV isn't one of them.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:36:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
If you find a theif in your house trying to take your television, you can confront him with a weapon and order him to stop. If he fails to comply, you CANNOT shoot him. If he turns and runs away, you CANNOT stop him.



Can you hose him with a gallon of Fox pepper spray?

If a bad guy is in my house, I seem to feel as though I should be able to use
any non-lethal force I want to use.

I don't want a bad guy to get away. I want to get him under control, and hold him until
authorities can take him away.

Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:39:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macro:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
"Make sure they are dead" is a pretty stupid idea.



Not my idea...just passing along what I have heard.
Personally, I cant see killing someone over property loss.
If someone wants my TV, I am not going to kill them to stop them.
If someone threatens me or my wife, mag dump to center mass.



On the other hand, if the penalty for breaking in and robbing people
was death on the spot if they got caught, there would probably be
fewer robberies.

If it wasn't for the law prohibiting it, I would have absolutely no problem with
shooting to kill if someone was trying to rob me of a jar of pickles.
It is MY property that I worked for.

Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:40:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
Yep, dead men don't testify.

"Officer, I can't say anything about events this evening without talking to a lawyer..."

"Your Honor, my client was in fear for his life when he fired the four rounds that struck Mr. Washington's body. It was dark, he saw an imposing figure in his home and thought Mr. Washington had a gun."




And such a statement is likely to get you in deep trouble.

If you can clearly articulate a threat, you are pretty safe.

But "thinking" you saw a "threat" in the friggin darkness is a damn good way to end up with a manslaughter conviction.

If you shoot somebody, you had better make damn sure you can clearly spell out why they were a threat.

And I guaran-damn-tee you that if you shoot somebody and they cease to be a threat, and then you go over and "finish them off" because "dead men tell no tales" that you will be sharing a cell with a 400 pound black man named "Tiny" who will make you his personal pincushion.



Mr Washington said he was going to kill me and rape my daughter.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:40:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 4:44:03 AM EDT by PhotoKidD100]

Originally Posted By PhotoKidD100:
Dose anyone know the legality if a minor shot, stabbed, beat, ext .a home invader or someone who would do them bodily harm in the state of Florida? Is it the same as an adult?



anybody?
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:41:20 AM EDT
Know your state law. Know your self. (What can you live with)

Any time you kill someone, justified or not. It will be investigated as a Homicide.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:43:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PhotoKidD100:
Dose anyone know the legality if a minor shot, stabbed, beat, ext .a home invader or someone who would do them bodily harm in the state of Florida? Is it the same as adult?



Individual statutes in individual states varry, but the general rule is that if a person has reasonable cause to believe that their life was in danger, they can respond with lethal force.

For instance:

Some assclown around here a few years ago got pissed off at his ex-wife and went around harrassing her. The ex-wife followed the instructions given by her lawyer and got a restraining order. The asshole didn't obey it, and the lady went to try to get the sherriff to enforce the order.

While she was AT the police station, the asshole busted into her house, grabbed a serrated kitchen knife and went after her 14 year old daughter. The daughter tried hard, but could not stop him from killing her.

Now if the situation was different and the 14 year old had been able to lay hands on a .357 magnum and had ventilated the asshole's skull for him, the law wouldn't really be all that concerned with her age. The relevant question is whether or not she was in fear for her life. The evidence would demonstrate that there was an abusive, violent jackass chasing her with a knife and screaming that he was going to show "that bitch" and the law would have to conclude that the 14 year old girl was genuinely in fear for her life when she pulled the trigger, and thus was guilty of no crime.

Unfortunately that didn't happen.

The 14 year old girl was found dead under her bed, as she tried to keep away from his blade. Unfortunately it didn't work.

The asshole then proceeded to take his 4 year old daughter and drive to a remote location. As he was driving the mother came home, found blood everywhere, found her dead daughter and called the cops.

The police gave chase and arrived just in time to see that the asshole had almost sawed his 4 year old daughter's head off with that serrated knife. As they approached him, he made some half-assed suicide attempt and gave up because "it hurt too much!" (His words)

One officer had to be removed from the scene because he was about ready to just shoot the miserable bastard in the face right then.

Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:50:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By PzIvF2s:
See, my thoughts, kick the TV bits outta the way and replace with a rusty screwdriver from the basement. "He dashed the TV to the ground, took a weapon from pocket, then lunged with said weapon. I said stop (*) times, and then fired to protect my life".



That would be a rediculous thing to do.

You might get away with it....but if the cops found out you would most DEFINATELY face a murder charge.



I guess I didn't make myself clear. I was only talking about an "oops". I'm not shooting somebody for a TV (otherwise I'd have myself a much bigger TV!). However, I'm not going to doing time just because some clown breaks into my house. I guess I'm just talking about a modification of the 3 "S" rule. I've trained for it, rifle, shotgun, and pistol, but, Thank God, I've never been tested. I don't know about murder... I'm betting at worst it’d be a manslaughter change. Sure you mislead and misdirected, but the facts remain that you were in your own domicile. For it to be murder, they would need to show and prove premeditation, which I’m thinking would be fairly difficult. It’s not like you were laying in wait/ambush.

The only person that gets ambushed while I’m in bed is the wife, and I think that’s another thread entirely. :)
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:50:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
Can you hose him with a gallon of Fox pepper spray?

If a bad guy is in my house, I seem to feel as though I should be able to use
any non-lethal force I want to use.

I don't want a bad guy to get away. I want to get him under control, and hold him until
authorities can take him away.



That would depend on the laws in your area. You MUST be careful when trying to detain somebody.

For instance:

A local night club bouncer was trying to eject a guy who was drunk and disorderly, and who was trying to cause fights. When the bouncer tried to escort him out of the place, the drunk pulled a knife and tried to slash the bouncer.

The bouncer, being a strong college football player who was also a practicioner of several martial arts easily put the guy on the floor and then flexi-cuffed him while waiting for the police. The local police showed up and.....promptly arrested the bouncer for illegaly detaining the drunk.

Those of us who heard about the incident raised holy hell and the charges were eventually dropped with a letter of appology from the chief of police.

The question you have to ask yourself is: What if the worst, dumbest, most useless cop in the entire USA responds to this call? What can they possibly do to me?

Personally, I would love to see it be legal to beat the living sh*t out of a guy you catch in your house, or OC spray him, or taser his butt until his eyes turn blue.

But the law most likely will not permit such a thing. Check the laws and court cases where you live to find out how the justice system reacts to using force to prevent the escape of a criminal from your home....
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:53:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tanam:
Mr Washington said he was going to kill me and rape my daughter.



That might sound a bit "tacked on" after the previous statement, don't you think?

The best statement to make is:

I heard a noise, got up to investigate and saw a figure in my living room. I used my flashlight and identified that this person was nobody I knew, and that he had a gun in his hand. He began to move and I was in fear for my life. I shot to stop him from killing me.

I don't want to make any other statements without my attorney present.

Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:56:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Tanam:
Mr Washington said he was going to kill me and rape my daughter.



That might sound a bit "tacked on" after the previous statement, don't you think?

The best statement to make is:

I heard a noise, got up to investigate and saw a figure in my living room. I used my flashlight and identified that this person was nobody I knew, and that he had a gun in his hand. He began to move and I was in fear for my life. I shot to stop him from killing me.

I don't want to make any other statements without my attorney present.




Thats what he said officer, ask him, eh nevermind.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:56:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PzIvF2s:
I don't know about murder... I'm betting at worst it’d be a manslaughter change.



That depends on how the investigators and the prosecutors look at the situation.



Sure you mislead and misdirected, but the facts remain that you were in your own domicile.
For it to be murder, they would need to show and prove premeditation, which I’m thinking would be fairly difficult. It’s not like you were laying in wait/ambush.



You may not have been laying in ambush. But by the time the DA gets through talking to the jury, you could become a man just waiting for a legal excuse to kill somebody. If you go moving evidence around and trying to cover for a bad shoot, do NOT expect it to go un-noticed, and do NOT expect the justice system to treat it as no big deal.

They will tear you a new one.



Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:57:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:

Originally Posted By pieceofstink:


Same goes with any shooting. A very good friend of mine killed a man in New Mexico. Very justified shoot, many witnesses. But he didn't stick around to talk to the po-po. He had no duty to do so. And he still hasn't.



So he killed someone and fled the scene and nothing happened? No talking to police? Lawyer? anyone? Maybe I read that wrong, but thats what i got from it.



What he's saying is that his friend is a homicide suspect at large. "Many witnesses" huh?
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:58:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By PhotoKidD100:
Dose anyone know the legality if a minor shot, stabbed, beat, ext .a home invader or someone who would do them bodily harm in the state of Florida? Is it the same as adult?



Individual statutes in individual states varry, but the general rule is that if a person has reasonable cause to believe that their life was in danger, they can respond with lethal force.

For instance:

Some assclown around here a few years ago got pissed off at his ex-wife and went around harrassing her. The ex-wife followed the instructions given by her lawyer and got a restraining order. The asshole didn't obey it, and the lady went to try to get the sherriff to enforce the order.

While she was AT the police station, the asshole busted into her house, grabbed a serrated kitchen knife and went after her 14 year old daughter. The daughter tried hard, but could not stop him from killing her.

Now if the situation was different and the 14 year old had been able to lay hands on a .357 magnum and had ventilated the asshole's skull for him, the law wouldn't really be all that concerned with her age. The relevant question is whether or not she was in fear for her life. The evidence would demonstrate that there was an abusive, violent jackass chasing her with a knife and screaming that he was going to show "that bitch" and the law would have to conclude that the 14 year old girl was genuinely in fear for her life when she pulled the trigger, and thus was guilty of no crime.

Unfortunately that didn't happen.

The 14 year old girl was found dead under her bed, as she tried to keep away from his blade. Unfortunately it didn't work.

The asshole then proceeded to take his 4 year old daughter and drive to a remote location. As he was driving the mother came home, found blood everywhere, found her dead daughter and called the cops.

The police gave chase and arrived just in time to see that the asshole had almost sawed his 4 year old daughter's head off with that serrated knife. As they approached him, he made some half-assed suicide attempt and gave up because "it hurt too much!" (His words)

One officer had to be removed from the scene because he was about ready to just shoot the miserable bastard in the face right then.



I thought so, thanks.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:04:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
Can you hose him with a gallon of Fox pepper spray?

If a bad guy is in my house, I seem to feel as though I should be able to use
any non-lethal force I want to use.

I don't want a bad guy to get away. I want to get him under control, and hold him until
authorities can take him away.



That would depend on the laws in your area. You MUST be careful when trying to detain somebody.

For instance:

A local night club bouncer was trying to eject a guy who was drunk and disorderly, and who was trying to cause fights. When the bouncer tried to escort him out of the place, the drunk pulled a knife and tried to slash the bouncer.

The bouncer, being a strong college football player who was also a practicioner of several martial arts easily put the guy on the floor and then flexi-cuffed him while waiting for the police. The local police showed up and.....promptly arrested the bouncer for illegaly detaining the drunk.

Those of us who heard about the incident raised holy hell and the charges were eventually dropped with a letter of appology from the chief of police.

The question you have to ask yourself is: What if the worst, dumbest, most useless cop in the entire USA responds to this call? What can they possibly do to me?

Personally, I would love to see it be legal to beat the living sh*t out of a guy you catch in your house, or OC spray him, or taser his butt until his eyes turn blue.

But the law most likely will not permit such a thing. Check the laws and court cases where you live to find out how the justice system reacts to using force to prevent the escape of a criminal from your home....



Like you said it just depends on the state. The OP's state of Washington addresses such a scenario in their laws.

- Washington - The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:
(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;


Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:09:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
Like you said it just depends on the state. The OP's state of Washington addresses such a scenario in their laws.

- Washington - The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:
(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;



That statute, to my reading, authorizes using "some" force to stop someone from fleeing the scene of a breakin to your home/buisness. It is a good statute.

Still, by that reading, lethal force doesn't seem to be authorized. (Which isn't suprising, as they don't even allow police officers to shoot fleeing felons any more...)
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:12:34 AM EDT
Every single person who has replied has each made a great point.

Has anyone else felt as if they were being overprotective of their home during the first part of living on your own? That's the case with my girlfriend and i, lately i've been focused mainly on how safe i can make her. We've been together for about 4 years, im 23 but i know she's mine for life. So i guess having our own place is my first big commitment of my life, or so it seems, which i guess is why i'm so damn nervous. =/

Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:14:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RockoZ:
Every single person who has replied has each made a great point.

Has anyone else felt as if they were being overprotective of their home during the first part of living on your own?



Vigilance and caution are never bad things.

Requiring a DNA sample of every person who ever comes near your house is being over-protective.

Having a pistol on you at all times and keeping watch for anything suspicious is not over-reacting.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:17:24 AM EDT
Burglary means no one is home during the theft. If someone is home, it becomes an robbery and a home invasion. If people break into my home at night, they must assume I am there with my family and I believe I can respond with deadly force, even if it turns out they are just after my TV. In my part of Ohio, I would feel pretty safe before a jury having shot a home invader (unless they were clearly trying to run away at the time). If you are stupid enough to break into someone's house when they are home, there is a pretty good chance you are going to get shot.

If, on the other hand, I come accross someone trying to steal my car in the driveway, I can't blaze away just to stop them from stealing my car.

Of course, the wiser decision may not be confront robbers in all situations. If someone is stealing my stuff downstairs, the best couse of action is probally to call the police and stay upstairs and protect the family if the robbers try to come up instead of going down there and facing who knows how many armed intruders.

Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:18:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
Like you said it just depends on the state. The OP's state of Washington addresses such a scenario in their laws.

- Washington - The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:
(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;



That statute, to my reading, authorizes using "some" force to stop someone from fleeing the scene of a breakin to your home/buisness. It is a good statute.

Still, by that reading, lethal force doesn't seem to be authorized. (Which isn't suprising, as they don't even allow police officers to shoot fleeing felons any more...)



Well that's just one little subsection I was just showing that in response to The_Reaper's scenario about detaining someone and using "some" force. For the benefit of the OP, he can go to packing.org and follow the links under his state to their use of force and justifiable homicide laws here:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16




Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:18:23 AM EDT
You should be allowed to follow them home and burn their house down with them inside. (after they pitch your stuff out)
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:18:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:22:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By slefelar:
Of course, the wiser decision may not be confront robbers in all situations. If someone is stealing my stuff downstairs, the best couse of action is probally to call the police and stay upstairs and protect the family if the robbers try to come up instead of going down there and facing who knows how many armed intruders.



You are absolutely right.

Even if you can possibly get away with using lethal force, it still might be a bad tactical decision to start a fight when you don't have to.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:24:51 AM EDT
Gun ownership in the US has been neutered almost to the point
of uselessness. I am exagerating but try that in NYC, SF or KALI.
The best bet is not to shoot but if you do, go for the kill.
If the dirtbag is injured and not dead you can bet your ass
the scumbag lawyer and surviving family will see you in civil court.
Criminals are victims nowadays. I blame the libs for this. Assholes
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:26:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sherrick13:

Originally Posted By macro:
I have been told by more than one policeman (off the record) that if I ever do shoot someone in my home, make sure they are dead. Easier to explain what happened to the police when only one side has a voice.

Dead criminals cant sue for damages either.



But their families can... and will.



So what is the "right" option:

A. You let the criminal have their way with your family and your property out of fear of a civil lawsuit.
B. You injure the criminal and they maybe sue you
C. You kill the criminal and their family maybe sues you.
D. In such a scenario the fear of a civil lawsuit should be the last thing on your mind, survival will usually come first.

Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:29:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
So what is the "right" option:

A. You let the criminal have their way with your family and your property out of fear of a civil lawsuit.
B. You injure the criminal and they maybe sue you
C. You kill the criminal and their family maybe sues you.
D. In such a scenario the fear of a civil lawsuit should be the last thing on your mind, survival will usually come first.




If your family is at stake, you don't hesitate to use lethal force.

But if your life and your family's life are not at stake, it is probably much wiser not to engage.
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