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Posted: 8/11/2001 8:48:59 PM EDT
Hello! I need some help with calibers and picking the right one. I want a good ccw gun and I've narrowed the available calibers down to three. Here's what I know already. This gun would have a 3" - 4" barrel. [size=2][b][u].357 SIG[/u][/b][/size=2] 1. Reportedly has the characteristics of a .357 magnum out of a 4" barrel. Good velocity. 2. Knecked-down cartridge; may be difficult or costly to reload. 3. .40S&W stuff will work with the .357SIG. 4. Still considered to be an odder caliber and isn't commonly used by police/military. 5. Small bullet. [size=2][b][u].45 ACP[/u][/b][/size=2] 1. Good knockdown power but it loses strength/velocity in shorter barrels. 2. Commonly found and available. 3. Slower bullet. 4. Still used by police and by some military. [size=2][b][u].40 S&W[/u][/b][/size=2] 1. Good knockdown power 2. Smaller than the .45 but faster. 3. Commonly found and available. 4. #1 choice of police. ---===***===--- Any other advice? Thanks, Mike
Link Posted: 8/11/2001 9:02:07 PM EDT
I own and have carried all 3. All are nice rounds. One thing is .357 sig might have too much penetration close up which is the common self defense range. It is my understanding that the .45 has the most actual shock on the victim, even from shorter barrels (ie. 3in.) The forty is really between the two. In my opinion it is really the best all around round. It has nearly as much knockdown as the .45 and according to ballistics more energy. Also it has a greater range than the .45. Not that you would ever have to shoot 60 to 80 yds but it would be nice to be able to if you had to. Like I say I have owned all three. Right now I carrly a glock 23 in .40 and a colt defender in .45. Both are great. Fortunatly, I've never had to shoot anyone but if I did it would definately be with a 40 or 45. both are really equal in my eyes because most likely the one being shot will be dead immediately so dead is dead and you can't get no more dead than dead. Matt
Link Posted: 8/11/2001 9:07:51 PM EDT
Hmm. I had wondered about penetration and overpenetration. I just figured that HP ammo would nix that problem. Then again, I've never seen .357SIG HP... [?] Mike
Link Posted: 8/11/2001 9:14:20 PM EDT
well, I've heard of quite a few different situations where .357 magnums went through their victims even with hollow points and the 357 sig has very similar ballistics so I would only assume that it would do the same. Now these shots were from 2 to 5 yds which is the distance you'll most likely be shooting if you have to shoot someone in defense. If you think about it, that's a pretty good charge behind a relatively small bullet. Matt
Link Posted: 8/11/2001 9:18:23 PM EDT
My vote is for the 45, 4" barrel please. The 45 has good stopping performance and does it with roughly half the chamber pressure of the other two rounds you mentioned. It's mild mannered, accurate and throws a lot of lead. Bigger bullets do it better IMHO.
Link Posted: 8/11/2001 9:22:24 PM EDT
I don't own a .357 SIG, but I will throw this in (not much of a factor in a high quality firearm) but a bottle neck cartridge will feed EXTREMELY reliably--the bottle neck acts as a built in funnel to get the round into the chamber correctly. AFARR
Link Posted: 8/11/2001 10:21:36 PM EDT
The gun I would get would be a Sig P229 if you want a .40/.357. Overpenetration is not a problem with either round as most people would want to believe. Actually, with heavy clothing, a 165 grain .40 cal Golden Sabre provides for better penetration and wounding potential than most rounds. What the two rounds lack is size. If you put 185 grain or 230 grain rounds into someone and they stay there, it will obvioulsy be more detrimental, unless you say have a smaller round like a .223 that fragments. The advantage of a smaller round in a CCW is more rounds. However, you cannot go wrong with a .45 Kimber Carry either. Just recognize that you won't be loosing much or maybe anything at all if you go with say a P229. It's a matter of personal preference and what shoots the best for you. themao [chainsawkill]
Link Posted: 8/11/2001 11:10:54 PM EDT
Personally, I like the #'s on the .45's... I've got some HOT .45 +P ammo from MAGTECH, that makes for up any shortcomings in STD .45 velocity. This ammo pushes a 185 grain JHP at 1148 FPS, with 540 FT LBS of energy...[kill][pistol] For comparison, their .40 cal stuff pushes a 155 grain JHP at 1205 FPS, with 500 FT LBS of energy... I've got no experience wth the .357 Sig. Anybody know what kind of performance/numbers to expect from the .357 Sig ???
Link Posted: 8/11/2001 11:56:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2001 11:53:50 PM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 8/12/2001 12:18:43 AM EDT
As dragracerart mentioned, .45 +P can exceed 40 S&W energy, if you are into that sort of thing. If you want to get radical, 45 Super can approach low-end .44 Magnum. To me the advantages of .45 ACP are: 1. Easy and inexpensive to reload. Lots of proven loads to duplicate any carry load. Lots of specialty loads for any purpose. The components are big and easy to handle. Brass life with standard loads is long. Cast lead bullets can be used to duplicate factory loads for practice, which cuts cost dramatically compared to the jacketed bullets required for .357SIG and the lighter, faster .40 S&W loads. 2. Low cost factory loads available which duplicate the POA/POI of the most proven self-defense loads. 230 gr. Ball duplicates the 230gr. Hydra-shok, Golden Saber, etc. 3. Lower flash and blast with standard loads, especially compared to the 357SIG. 4. The standards for self defense loads for handguns are the 125gr. .357 Magnum JHP and the 230gr. .45ACP JHP. Everything else is touted as “almost as good”, “just as good”, etc. Until the .357 SIG is proven, I chose not to be one of the experimenters. 5. While the better JHPs enhance it’s effectiveness, THE 45 STARTS OUT BIG. If the hollow point plugs up on fiber or intervening material, you still have a sizable slug. Also, there are no stories of .45 hollow points blowing up on hard intervening material. Longer-range (20 – 75 yard) shots do not have a drop problem with the proper zero. Sighted in for 50 yards the POI will be about 1 ½ inches high at 25 yard and about 3-4 inches low at 75 yards. The first convergence of POA/POI with this zero is about 8 yards. The .357 SIG with full metal jacket bullets probably has a significant advantage in penetration of hard cover, if that is important to you. In the same gun you may be able to carry one or two more .40 S&W or .357 SIG cartridges, but so what? I'm with SGB, I want BIG bullets in a proven combination. In the real world, I don't think it matters that much which you choose.[:P]
Link Posted: 8/12/2001 7:53:41 AM EDT
I'm a .40 fan, loads of choice are: Triton's Quick Shok 155gr. rated 538 ft. lbs. of energy (muzzle). 165gr. Remington Golden Sabre or Speer Gold Dot rated 485 ft. lbs. of energy (muzzle). Winchester 155gr. Silvertip rated 504 ft. lbs. of energy (muzzle). Both Remington and Speer have 165gr. FMJ loads that replicate their defense loads. My personal choice for firearms in .40 was the G23, it just seems like the best compromise to me. The mid-size Glock allows me to use two types of mags (mid-size & full size) and the gun is more comfortable for CC. The .40 Glocks have a higher capacity in a std. size and the .40 is both a smaller frame size than .45 and the ammo is a little lighter. Another thing going for .40 was the ability for me to convert to .357 Sig or 9mm* with a simple barrel change. I also simply like the fact that .40 ammo is a little lighter to carry in bulk. [i]* 9mm requires the use of a drop-in conversion barrel.[/i]
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