Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 4
Posted: 2/16/2006 8:11:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 8:13:01 PM EDT by protozo1]
A good friend recently bought a couple of nice gun safes. It got me wanting my own but I think I would rather build a walkin safe. Does anyone have plans for a walkin safe? Or any links to a bunker or walkin safe site? I remember the ammo bunkers on a base I was at and they were like big heavy steel quonset huts buried in the ground with massive steel doors, one of those would do nicely.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:13:00 PM EDT
Get the Vault door, build a room.

If I had the money.....
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:14:28 PM EDT
Yes but how to build the room, concrete and rebar? Someone with a sledge could get through that, also hhow could you fireproof a room?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:16:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By protozo1:
Yes but how to build the room, concrete and rebar? Someone with a sledge could get through that, also hhow could you fireproof a room?



You don't need that much, actually. There is now this metal mesh material that you can sandwich between a few layers of draywall, and presto, a surprisingly fire-resistant and burglar-resistant room.

I'll be looking at doing something like a full room in the next house I get.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:25:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:27:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By protozo1:
Yes but how to build the room, concrete and rebar? Someone with a sledge could get through that, also hhow could you fireproof a room?



You don't need that much, actually. There is now this metal mesh material that you can sandwich between a few layers of draywall, and presto, a surprisingly fire-resistant and burglar-resistant room.

I'll be looking at doing something like a full room in the next house I get.



I'd really like some info on this. Any links or anything?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:31:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 8:40:48 PM EDT by Zaphod]
Sadly, no, but if I find one, I'll post it.

My BIL recommended the stuff. He's spent the last two years working as a construction manager for a company that builds safe rooms at U.S. embassies. He'll know what it is.


Found it!

Link #1

PDF File
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:32:42 PM EDT
Tag since I am building a house in October.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:41:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Sadly, no, but if I find one, I'll post it.

My BIL recommended the stuff. He's spent the last two years working as a construction manager for a company that builds safe rooms at U.S. embassies. He'll know what it is.


Found it!

Link



Sweet! Thanks. That may save me quite the headache. I planned on doing a block wall, but this will work quite well with steel beams and such. I wonder how fire resitant drywall is and how much I would need to make it considerably fire proof?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:49:19 PM EDT
Tag

Drywall is used to make the firewalls in commercial buildings.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:49:36 PM EDT
My BIL says (IIRC) that two sheets of 1/2" drywall provides a good 30 minutes of fire protection. Double it up and you go even higher.

What I'm thinking of doing is using this mesh stuff, and inserting rebar through the holes in the aluminum studs. Half-inch drywall to finish. If I'm in a really paranoid mood, I'll do everything double.

The problem is the GD door. Short of a vault door, I'm not sure what will be adequate.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:49:53 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:54:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 8:57:59 PM EDT by Zaphod]
Oh, you can also put in the studs every 8 inches instead of the usual 16.

Remember, nothing short of a full safe is completely secure, and even then, given enough time, a pro will breach it. All we can hope for (especially when on a budget) is to slow the fuckers down long enough to either a) let the police respond to the alarm, or b) get frustrated and go away.

Oh, and lock up your carbide blades and power tools. No sense helping the little shits.

Any ideas on how to securely mount the doorframe without concrete or wood?


ETA: Drywall Info
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:57:35 PM EDT
A guy at work built a new house and his basement walls were constructed of preformed concrete slabs. In one corner he has the guys add a couple of extra pieces to form a amsll room, leaning enough space to come back with a vault door later on. The only problem was he didn't do anything to the roof. So you can just into the kitchen with a circular saw and in about 2 minutes you're in his safe. I don't know how much extra it cost, but since the guys were already there with the equipment and concrete, I imagine he paid very little extra beyond the cost of the extra slabs.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:59:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By txgp17:
A guy at work built a new house and his basement walls were constructed of preformed concrete slabs. In one corner he has the guys add a couple of extra pieces to form a amsll room, leaning enough space to come back with a vault door later on. The only problem was he didn't do anything to the roof. So you can just into the kitchen with a circular saw and in about 2 minutes you're in his safe. I don't know how much extra it cost, but since the guys were already there with the equipment and concrete, I imagine he paid very little extra beyond the cost of the extra slabs.



Did he have any extra footings poured?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:59:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 9:01:10 PM EDT by shop_rat45]

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Oh, you can also put in the studs every 8 inches instead of the usual 16.

Remember, nothing short of a full safe is completely secure, and even then, given enough time, a pro will breach it. All we can hope for (especially when on a budget) is to slow the fuckers down long enough to either a) let the police respond to the alarm, or b) get frustrated and go away.

Oh, and lock up your carbide blades and power tools. No sense helping the little shits.

Any ideas on how to securely mount the doorframe without concrete or wood?


ETA: Drywall Info



I wonder how well doing just the door frame out of cement blocks and the rest with the mesh stuff would work? It would give your door a good mounting point that would not easily be breached. Just an idea. I need to figure this stuff out since I will be building my vault in the next few months.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:01:12 PM EDT
Maybe. Problem with concrete blocks is that unless they are well anchored, they can be pushed over.

Don't know the odds of that, but I'd consider it...
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:03:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 9:03:58 PM EDT by shop_rat45]
My original plan was to have the block guys come back after my floor is poured and then have them build the walls out of block and pour the roof like a mezzanine floor. Problem is, they wanted $1500 to do this. Needless to say, I'm looking for other options.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:07:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Oh, you can also put in the studs every 8 inches instead of the usual 16.

Remember, nothing short of a full safe is completely secure, and even then, given enough time, a pro will breach it. All we can hope for (especially when on a budget) is to slow the fuckers down long enough to either a) let the police respond to the alarm, or b) get frustrated and go away.

Oh, and lock up your carbide blades and power tools. No sense helping the little shits.

Any ideas on how to securely mount the doorframe without concrete or wood?

ETA: Drywall Info



I am wondering this as well.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:14:30 PM EDT
I have a dumb question:

What are the shelves etc made out of on a regular gun safe?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:16:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brians_45:
I have a dumb question:

What are the shelves etc made out of on a regular gun safe?



I don't think there is anything specific that they are made out of. You could just use wood like gunshops use, but I don't know if I'd want that much kindling around my guns.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:18:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shop_rat45:

Originally Posted By Brians_45:
I have a dumb question:

What are the shelves etc made out of on a regular gun safe?



I don't think there is anything specific that they are made out of. You could just use wood like gunshops use, but I don't know if I'd want that much kindling around my guns.



That is exactly where I was going with that. I wonder if the fire resistance of drywall exceeds the combustibility of wood and carpet? All this assuming that the drywall will actually let that much heat through.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:19:28 PM EDT
As far as the door frame goes, why not just use heavy steel as a complete casing around the door?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:20:51 PM EDT
You might look at a product called ICE Block, or GREEN BLOCK.....

They are products called ICF....Improved Concrete Forms....They are are usually two pieces of styrofoam connected by either metal or plastic, and filled with concrete. They look like big LEGO blocks. They make "caps", ie, ceilings.....To use as shelter rooms for tornados, or for safe rooms, or stuff like that.

Pretty cool stuff, just a little more expensive to build with.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:22:31 PM EDT
tag for the info reading later.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:23:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brians_45:
As far as the door frame goes, why not just use heavy steel as a complete casing around the door?




Gotta anchor it to something...


Shelves in gun safes are made of wood with velour or carpet covering. Thing is, you've got the safe itself keeping the heat out.

Rated 5/8 inch drywall will hold for about an hour.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:26:32 PM EDT
I have to say, this has been one of the most informative vault threads I've seen here. Last couple of times I asked, my threads were avoided like the plague! Thanks for the info on the wall mesh stuff Zaphod! That has me excited about my vault again!! It's now something I can do myself instead of farming out to a block guy and such.

Any links for lower priced vault doors?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:26:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By txgp17:
A guy at work built a new house and his basement walls were constructed of preformed concrete slabs. In one corner he has the guys add a couple of extra pieces to form a amsll room, leaning enough space to come back with a vault door later on. The only problem was he didn't do anything to the roof. So you can just into the kitchen with a circular saw and in about 2 minutes you're in his safe. I don't know how much extra it cost, but since the guys were already there with the equipment and concrete, I imagine he paid very little extra beyond the cost of the extra slabs.

Did he have any extra footings poured?

No, the entire floor and wall structure was like a giant concrete tub, like an old style concrete pool.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:32:46 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:33:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 9:37:11 PM EDT by Brians_45]

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By Brians_45:
As far as the door frame goes, why not just use heavy steel as a complete casing around the door?




Gotta anchor it to something...


Shelves in gun safes are made of wood with velour or carpet covering. Thing is, you've got the safe itself keeping the heat out.

Rated 5/8 inch drywall will hold for about an hour.



If it is a full steel casing, you could anchor it to the floor, as a start. As far as the other three sides, you may be limited to using wood studs that are encased in the drywall and steel. The wooden studs should hold just as long as the carpet and wood shelves in the safe. Or am I missing something here?

ETA: You are going to need some type of steel casing for the vault door lugs anyway, right?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:40:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shop_rat45:
Any links for lower priced vault doors?



Cheapest I've found is $3K.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:42:57 PM EDT
Interesting link on concrete walls etc

www.concretenetwork.com/concrete/homes/iforms.htm

I am still looking at it, but it is pretty informative thus far.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:46:35 PM EDT
tag!
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:46:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By shop_rat45:
Any links for lower priced vault doors?



Cheapest I've found is $3K.


Check this out:
www.sportsmansteelsafes.com/defender.htm
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:47:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brians_45:

If it is a full steel casing, you could anchor it to the floor, as a start. As far as the other three sides, you may be limited to using wood studs that are encased in the drywall and steel. The wooden studs should hold just as long as the carpet and wood shelves in the safe. Or am I missing something here?



Wood studs don't have a bunch of steel around them like the shelves in a safe do.


You are going to need some type of steel casing for the vault door lugs anyway, right?


Ideally, yes. I wouldn't be comfortable with wood.

I'm actually wondering if a good exterior-grade steel door and frame is a good option, provided you make a few modifications to prevent the hinges from being taken off or whatnot.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:51:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brians_45:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
heapest I've found is $3K.


Check this out:
www.sportsmansteelsafes.com/defender.htm




Not bad!

Still, I think it would be more prudent to have a "normal" door in order for it not to attract too much attention. No?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:54:00 PM EDT
My uncle had one of these in his basement, I believe it was 10X12 in size. The walls were reinfoced with cinderblock.

Make sure you have an intercom system and ventilation in case you get locked in somehow.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:56:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By Brians_45:

If it is a full steel casing, you could anchor it to the floor, as a start. As far as the other three sides, you may be limited to using wood studs that are encased in the drywall and steel. The wooden studs should hold just as long as the carpet and wood shelves in the safe. Or am I missing something here?



Wood studs don't have a bunch of steel around them like the shelves in a safe do.

I don't think that you are understanding what I am trying to say. If the casing is on three sides of the 5/8" thick sheetrock on both sides with the wood studs in the middle, wouldn't that suffice?


You are going to need some type of steel casing for the vault door lugs anyway, right?


Ideally, yes. I wouldn't be comfortable with wood. Same here. I am thinking that maybe the studs immediately surrounding the door might be steel, instead. Using steel here would obviously negate my comments above about wooden studs and steel casing.

I'm actually wondering if a good exterior-grade steel door and frame is a good option, provided you make a few modifications to prevent the hinges from being taken off or whatnot. Seems like something to definitely look into.

Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:58:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By Brians_45:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
heapest I've found is $3K.


Check this out:
www.sportsmansteelsafes.com/defender.htm




Not bad!

Still, I think it would be more prudent to have a "normal" door in order for it not to attract too much attention. No?



Good point, assuming that you can make it just as secure. I am looking into this now.

Another thought that I have had, since my setup will be a walk-in closet that is converted to a vault, is to just have a regular door, then the vault door.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 10:00:48 PM EDT
tag.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 10:11:13 PM EDT
Here was the idea I had for a safe wall.

Metal studs, 8" spaced, steel rebar horizontally in the holes, with expanded steel grating wired through the rebar, DUROCK (sp) sheeting instead of drywall, and filling the space with a fireplace mortar (I forget the name).

No Expert
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 10:14:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Expert:
Here was the idea I had for a safe wall.

Metal studs, 8" spaced, steel rebar horizontally in the holes, with expanded steel grating wired through the rebar, DUROCK (sp) sheeting instead of drywall, and filling the space with a fireplace mortar (I forget the name).

No Expert


How would you secure the door? Would it have a conventional vault door?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 10:19:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brians_45:

Originally Posted By No_Expert:
Here was the idea I had for a safe wall.

Metal studs, 8" spaced, steel rebar horizontally in the holes, with expanded steel grating wired through the rebar, DUROCK (sp) sheeting instead of drywall, and filling the space with a fireplace mortar (I forget the name).

No Expert


How would you secure the door? Would it have a conventional vault door?



Yes, the idea is to use a vault door, or a door from one of the larger safes, with a reinforcements imbedded into the walls (which are filled)

Thats the idea anyway.

No Expert
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 10:19:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 10:23:57 PM EDT by Zaphod]

Originally Posted By No_Expert:
Here was the idea I had for a safe wall.

Metal studs, 8" spaced, steel rebar horizontally in the holes, with expanded steel grating wired through the rebar, DUROCK (sp) sheeting instead of drywall, and filling the space with a fireplace mortar (I forget the name).

No Expert



Durock doesn't protect against fire like drywall does. The high water content of drywall is the deciding factor.

While durock is certainly a bitch to get through, perhaps the best bet is to put drywall over durock. However, since the "experts" don't seem to consider this necessary, I doubt it is.


Brian: Yeah, I think you may be right on the wood studs being adequately protected by steel and drywall.

I wonder if there is some kind of composite material that could be used?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 10:27:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 10:27:59 PM EDT by Brians_45]

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By No_Expert:
Here was the idea I had for a safe wall.

Metal studs, 8" spaced, steel rebar horizontally in the holes, with expanded steel grating wired through the rebar, DUROCK (sp) sheeting instead of drywall, and filling the space with a fireplace mortar (I forget the name).

No Expert



Durock doesn't protect against fire like drywall does. The high water content of drywall is the deciding factor.

While durock is certainly a bitch to get through, perhaps the best bet is to put drywall over durock. However, since the "experts" don't seem to consider this necessary, I doubt it is.


Brian: Yeah, I think you may be right on the wood studs being adequately protected by steel and drywall.

I wonder if there is some kind of composite material that could be used?


I am going to make some phone calls about that tomorrow. I was just wondering the same thing. I can't think of anything that would have the support of wood, short of steel, and still be fire resistant. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 10:40:49 PM EDT
Just found this:
vault door that looks like a normal door

Interesting.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 10:43:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By No_Expert:
Here was the idea I had for a safe wall.

Metal studs, 8" spaced, steel rebar horizontally in the holes, with expanded steel grating wired through the rebar, DUROCK (sp) sheeting instead of drywall, and filling the space with a fireplace mortar (I forget the name).

No Expert



Durock doesn't protect against fire like drywall does. The high water content of drywall is the deciding factor.

While durock is certainly a bitch to get through, perhaps the best bet is to put drywall over durock. However, since the "experts" don't seem to consider this necessary, I doubt it is.


Brian: Yeah, I think you may be right on the wood studs being adequately protected by steel and drywall.

I wonder if there is some kind of composite material that could be used?



I agree on the fire resistency of drywall over durock....but the durock is alot harder to punch through than drywall...and the durock would be a better containment system for filling the wall cavity with the fireplace/chimney mortar compound...which would be the fire protectant in my wall idea.

No Expert
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 10:59:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 11:02:38 PM EDT by protozo1]
I found this at the browning website. This is what I think would be best for a door so it's low key.

www.browning.com/products/catalog/safes/detail.asp?cat_id=160&type_id=39581&value=003F

Hell, these would be good for all your house exterior doors if you had a concrete house.

oops just saw the post with the Browning door above.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 1:03:08 AM EDT
I was considering having this vault be more than just a vault but a safe room, storm room, panic room, do you guys (and girls) believe those vault doors will stop a round fired at close range?
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:50:23 AM EDT
If building a new home, ensure to have footers in place, then simply use concrete block then pour in concrete for a solid wall.

Then you can actually have a solid concrete ceiling and add a valut door. This is what my friend had in his house.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:03:54 AM EDT
Several years ago, I built a garage for a guy with a Class 3 collection. In one corner I built a vault out of concrete block. I had already put rebar in the floor slab and laid the block on them. Once the block were finished, I formed a ceiling, then poured the walls and ceiling in one monolithic pour, installed a vault door, wiring and dehumidifier, finished. The door is the only weak link. Otherwise, it's tornado, hurricane and zombie proof!
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 4
Top Top