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Quoted: Just found this: vault door that looks like a normal door Interesting.

I saw these at a local shop. Cant tell them from any other interior door...until you attempt to open it

Old thread on a Vault...

archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=309912

wasn't there a great thread about this around a year ago with lots of pics?  Someone should find that link.  That guy did a real good job.

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Best one I have seen is a friend of mine, Three car garage on the house in the basement there is a concrete room Under the garage... 4 walls of reinforced concrete, nominal 8" thick. Concrete ceiling reinforced concrete slab probably 10" thick "Suspended Slab Construction" this room is as large as a three car garage... just add a vault door... I would likely have two vault doors set behind standard entry type doors... gives a different illusion...

Quoted: Oh, you can also put in the studs every 8 inches instead of the usual 16. Remember, nothing short of a full safe is completely secure, and even then, given enough time, a pro will breach it. All we can hope for (especially when on a budget) is to slow the fuckers down long enough to either a) let the police respond to the alarm, or b) get frustrated and go away. Oh, and lock up your carbide blades and power tools. No sense helping the little shits. Any ideas on how to securely mount the doorframe without concrete or wood? ETA: Drywall Info

You could always use a fire-proof safe in the room for high dollar stuff.

Quoted: Quoted: Here was the idea I had for a safe wall. Metal studs, 8" spaced, steel rebar horizontally in the holes, with expanded steel grating wired through the rebar, DUROCK (sp) sheeting instead of drywall, and filling the space with a fireplace mortar (I forget the name). No Expert Durock doesn't protect against fire like drywall does. The high water content of drywall is the deciding factor. While durock is certainly a bitch to get through, perhaps the best bet is to put drywall over durock. However, since the "experts" don't seem to consider this necessary, I doubt it is. Brian: Yeah, I think you may be right on the wood studs being adequately protected by steel and drywall. I wonder if there is some kind of composite material that could be used?

I've got to comment on this, because from the research that I have done I think you may have some errors in your thinking.

Drywall DOES NOT have any water content in it or at least very, very little.

I did quite a bit of research on safes in general and talked to a number of safe dealers and safe manufacturers on this subject. I'm not talking the typical big name gun "safe" manufacturers, but big time safe manufacturers that make high security TL-30 rated safes for banks and other commercial applications. They all told me that drywall is a POOR choice for fire protection and the idea that it is good because it has high water content basically amounts to an old wive's tale. It doesn't have water in it. They told me that drywall is a flame barrier, but that it does a poor job of actually insulating from heat. In otherwords, it might do ok at keeping things inside the drywall from actually burning up, but it will not protect from heat damage very well.

Believe it or not, they told me that concrete itself is a pretty good flame barrier and heat insualtor. In fact, you'd be surprised to learn that some of the truly high security rated safes actually pour concrete between two layers of steel in the walls and door of their safes. This type of construction will get them MUCH higher fire protection than drywall. But don't take my word for it, or even theirs. They have their safes tested by Underwriters Laboratory and this type of construction easily beats out the drywall insulated safes.

I'm not trying to poo poo on anyone's parade here, but just trying to offer advice before you guys go out and spend a lot of money on something that won't actually do a lot of good.

Here are a couple of resources that might help:

First, download the last link on the first post of this page.

There is one PDF file in that download that explains how to build a fallout shelter. It gives pretty detailed instructions on how to do it with either cinderblock walls or poured concrete walls. IMHO steel reinforced poured concrete is what you really want to do for a secure gun vault. Even though this PDF is specifically for a fallout shelter I think the same concept applies to building a gun vault.

Next, go over to The High Road. Do a search on the posts of a guy with the screen name CB900F. This guy is a real deal safe dealer, not a B-rate safe like most of the big name gun safes you see, or even RSC's, but true UL rated TL-15, TL-30, and TL-60 safes and vault doors. This guy has apparently built some vaults and knows quite a bit about safes and vaults. He is willing to help consult anyone on building a vault especially if you get the vault door from him. He knows way more than I do, I've mainly just scratched the surface. I hope this helps you guys.

ETA: I should also mention that the concrete used in these safes is usually less dense version of concrete. What I think they are trying to accomplish is to basically emulate something similar to the ceramic tile used on the space shuttle. Obviously it's not as good as space shuttle tile, but better than drywall from the UL testing done (plus much harder to cut through). I believe that some of the real high end safes actually do use a ceramic tile in them for even better fire protection ratings.

Just to give you an idea, most drywall protected safes are rated at 30-45min at 1200F. This is not even a UL rating, but rated by the factory

The concrete poured safes are rated anywhere from around 90min at 1350F to over 2 hours at 1800F, just to give you an idea of the difference. And that's a UL rating, not a factory rating.

ETA2: dsyexlia

ETA3: Screen name for THR fixed. It's CB900F, not CB900R.

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Quoted: Just found this: vault door that looks like a normal door Interesting.

Bingo!

I'd forgotten who made that damned thing!

Quoted: I agree on the fire resistency of drywall over durock....but the durock is alot harder to punch through than drywall...and the durock would be a better containment system for filling the wall cavity with the fireplace/chimney mortar compound...which would be the fire protectant in my wall idea. No Expert

No doubt about durock being a bitch to punch through. If you have the space (and are handy with drywall compound), then it certainly can't hurt.

Concerning the chimney mortar, how is that any different that regular concrete? If you were going to go that route, wouldn't cinder block filled with concrete be easier and cheaper?



Another thing that occurred to me: Rather than just using screws to hold the durock and/or drywall to the studs (and each other), run a bead of Liquid Nails on the studs, and spread it between layers. A relatively cheap and very easy way of adding extra strength to the whole thing.

Quoted: Yes but how to build the room, concrete and rebar?  Someone with a sledge could get through that...

Not hardly. Steel-reinforced concrete is the surest way to keep thieves at bay.

also hhow could you fireproof a room?

Steel-reinforced concrete.

Quoted: You could always use a fire-proof safe in the room for high dollar stuff.

Absolutely. In fact, I would recommend it, simply in case the ceiling caves in during a fire. Hell, I'd recommend it even in a full-concrete room. Paper is paper.

Quoted: I've got to comment on this, because from the research that I have done I think you may have some errors in your thinking. Drywall DOES NOT have any water content in it or at least very, very little.

Oh, dear..... So we're back to a battle between "experts". Sheesh.

All I know is what my BIL has told me, as well as what I've seen in terms of safe construction. I have no doubt, however, that concrete is better than drywall.

The only reason I've looked at drywall and the steel mesh idea is because concrete is a bitch to pour in a basement or garage that's already finished, and as noted previously, pouring a concrete roof in a finished house is a near impossibility.

Let me look at those links you posted. I wish the "experts" could get the damned basics down!

Quoted: ...concrete is a bitch to pour in a basement or garage that's already finished, and as noted previously, pouring a concrete roof in a finished house is a near impossibility.

I did just that and made my own door system.

Quoted: Quoted: ...concrete is a bitch to pour in a basement or garage that's already finished, and as noted previously, pouring a concrete roof in a finished house is a near impossibility. I did just that and made my own door system.

Pics and descriptions, then, man!

Quoted: Quoted: I've got to comment on this, because from the research that I have done I think you may have some errors in your thinking. Drywall DOES NOT have any water content in it or at least very, very little. Oh, dear..... So we're back to a battle between "experts". Sheesh. All I know is what my BIL has told me, as well as what I've seen in terms of safe construction. I have no doubt, however, that concrete is better than drywall. The only reason I've looked at drywall and the steel mesh idea is because concrete is a bitch to pour in a basement or garage that's already finished, and as noted previously, pouring a concrete roof in a finished house is a near impossibility. Let me look at those links you posted. I wish the "experts" could get the damned basics down!

I know, it is frustrating because I've read both versions myself, but I honestly find it hard to believe that drywall contains a high amount of water.

I may be using faulty logic, but lets just think about it for a moment...when they make drywall, they take gypsum and sandwich it between two layers of paper. But they dry the gypsum out before the drywall is finished. So, if it's dried before the product is finished (hence the name drywall), how does it contain water molecules that get released into steam when it heats up

Not only that, but if drywall already contains water, why does it so readily soak up water and then get brittle when it gets wet? For some reason I'm just finding the argument that drywall contains water a hard argument to buy.

Look, don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to make anyone look bad or prove anyone wrong, I just want to find out the truth like everyone else so that you can have the most secure gun vault/safe for your money.

The people I talked to, who are making professional vaults and safes all said the same thing. I'm willing to admit that I may be wrong if someone can provide some convincing reasoning, but so far the most convincing things I've heard are what I've told you already.

ETA: Here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. www.stucco-plaster-drywall.com/the-history-of-sheetrock.htm

Gypsum "boards" are formed by sandwiching a core of wet plaster between two sheets of heavy paper. When the core sets and is dried, the sandwich becomes a strong, rigid, fire-resistant building material.

And then he says this:

Fire-resistant because in its natural state, gypsum contains water, and when exposed to heat or flame, this water is released as steam, retarding heat transfer.

But gypsum in drywall is not in its natural state. It's dried out. I think that's where this myth comes from.

Quoted: Pics and descriptions, then, man!

No pics (they were posted a few years ago).

INSIDE dimensions: 3'6" x 6' 4" x 6' of headroom

Steel-reinforced concrete walls and ceiling

Made my own door system at a local fabrication plant (I know the owners)

All done in my existing basement

tagged for latter reading

Tag.

Drywall probably contains more water than you might think. Sure, it's dried down from a slurry to what we see in then stores, but that doesn't mean it's completely, 100% dry.

I suspect that gypsum board (drywall) is more of a hydrate than a solid mineral. The reason it goes to hell when it gets wet is because the concentration goes up too high and it tries to become a slurry again.

You need a good Mormon cellar.  Very popular in Utah.  Pop on an aftermarket vault door and add some security to the roof area (if needed) and viola! instant vault.

Quoted: Drywall probably contains more water than you might think. Sure, it's dried down from a slurry to what we see in then stores, but that doesn't mean it's completely, 100% dry. I suspect that gypsum board (drywall) is more of a hydrate than a solid mineral. The reason it goes to hell when it gets wet is because the concentration goes up too high and it tries to become a slurry again.

You could be right, but whenever I've worked with drywall it always seems to crumble into a powder when I cut it or break it. That indicates to me that there can't be a whole lot of water in it. At least not enough to create some kind of steam release that can keep heat at bay for a significant amount of time.

Just to reiterate, I'm not arguing that it's not a good flame insulator. I think it probably does ok at that. What I'm arguing is that it's not a good heat insulator. And steel reinfocred concrete is much better at insulating against both flame and heat. I'm basing that on UL testing, not just speculation. It doesn't do a whole lot of good to keep your firearms from burning up if they're just ruined anyway from heat warping and other heat related damage.

Of course, there are financial and practical considerations to keep in mind. I can see how pouring concrete in a finished basement might be a bit difficult to do. I'm not experienced enough to say what the best alternative would be or how you could work around that. I would try and contact the guy from THR that I mentioned above.

BTW, I edited the post because I got his screen name wrong. It's CB900F, not CB900R. Good luck.

Quoted: Several years ago, I built a garage for a guy with a Class 3 collection. In one corner I built a vault out of concrete block. I had already put rebar in the floor slab and laid the block on them. Once the block were finished, I formed  a ceiling, then poured the walls and ceiling in one monolithic pour, installed a vault door, wiring and dehumidifier, finished. The door is the only weak link. Otherwise, it's tornado, hurricane and zombie proof!

What was the final cost on this project, if you don't mind telling us?

Quoted: I have to say, this has been one of the most informative vault threads I've seen here. Last couple of times I asked, my threads were avoided like the plague! Thanks for the info on the wall mesh stuff Zaphod! That has me excited about my vault again!! It's now something I can do myself instead of farming out to a block guy and such. Any links for lower priced vault doors?

+1. Great post. Just what I was thinking.

Quoted: Quoted: I have to say, this has been one of the most informative vault threads I've seen here. Last couple of times I asked, my threads were avoided like the plague! Thanks for the info on the wall mesh stuff Zaphod! That has me excited about my vault again!! It's now something I can do myself instead of farming out to a block guy and such. Any links for lower priced vault doors? +1. Great post. Just what I was thinking.

Glad I was able to help.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: heapest I've found is $3K. Check this out: www.sportsmansteelsafes.com/defender.htm Not bad! Still, I think it would be more prudent to have a "normal" door in order for it not to attract too much attention. No? Good point, assuming that you can make it just as secure.  I am looking into this now. Another thought that I have had, since my setup will be a walk-in closet that is converted to a vault, is to just have a regular door, then the vault door.

There was a link to a company that made bookshelves that pivoted to hide a closet or safe door. Anyone have a link?

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This looks cool:

pervivere.blogspot.com/2005/09/holly-shelf-unit-batman.html

Interesting site and ideas: Rhino Vault.

tizzag

Quoted: Interesting site and ideas: Rhino Vault.

I am going to call them on monday for a quote.  I will let ya'll know what they say.

You know....... Everyone is always going on about the ceiling, and how concrete is best, but difficult to pour in a finished basement.

Why not just use a few layers of screwed, glued, and joint-cemented durock on the ceiling, with one layer of drywall (for looks) and wire mesh (for security)? Seems like a decent compromise.

I suppose the strength of the ceiling joists might be an issue. Durock is heavy.

Quoted: You know....... Everyone is always going on about the ceiling, and how concrete is best, but difficult to pour in a finished basement. Why not just use a few layers of screwed, glued, and joint-cemented durock on the ceiling, with one layer of drywall (for looks) and wire mesh (for security)? Seems like a decent compromise. I suppose the strength of the ceiling joists might be an issue. Durock is heavy.

Another ceiling alternative that might be useful to look into is Spancrete.

It's basically preformed concrete beams that you lay on top of an existing concrete wall/foundation. I'd imagine that you could use mortar or some similar type adhesive to seal it up to the walls, or even pour concrete on top of the spancrete beams once they were in place. I don't know about the cost effectiveness compared to durock, or how easy it would be to put into place, but it might be worth looking into.

Wow. That looks seriously heavy-duty!

I'm trying to stick to DIY-level stuff!

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Quoted: Wow. That looks seriously heavy-duty! I'm trying to stick to DIY-level stuff!

What? You don't have a crane and back hoe in your garage?

Sorry, I wasn't sure how far you really wanted to go with this. I don't know if you downloaded that PDF I linked to, but it tells how to do a DIY concrete ceiling. But since you mentioned that you're putting this in a finished basement that might make things a bit tricky too...

I use to make Sheetrock for USG I work In the mine now same place. I used some 3/4'' fire board for my safe it is some cool stuff . I think it has a 3 hour rating on it. It has some special sand like stuff in it that make it fire proof for a long time.

After reading all the great posts I realized a family member has just recently built a garage that would be perfect.  They had limited space and needed storage so he built a 2 car garage with a corregated (sp?) steel sheet floor supported by steel I beams and then concrete was poured on top.  This made an underground room with 2 upright steel I beams the size of a 2 car garage.  All concrete floors walls etc.  If you put in a vault door on that hidden by a standard door, or better yet a totally hidden door then you'd have a safe, storm, panic whatever room.

In the new houses in Oklahoma they are building storm/tornado shelters like 12-16 inch steel reinforced concrete cube with a metal door...if I get a house built Ill just use it for my safe/wun work room...

Quoted: Sadly, no, but if I find one, I'll post it. My BIL recommended the stuff. He's spent the last two years working as a construction manager for a company that builds safe rooms at U.S. embassies. He'll know what it is. Found it! Link #1 PDF File

You know if you could embed that in a concrete wall form with some rebar, then a good solid pour........

Quoted: My BIL says (IIRC) that two sheets of 1/2" drywall provides a good 30 minutes of fire protection. Double it up and you go even higher. What I'm thinking of doing is using this mesh stuff, and inserting rebar through the holes in the aluminum studs. Half-inch drywall to finish. If I'm in a really paranoid mood, I'll do everything double. The problem is the GD door. Short of a vault door, I'm not sure what will be adequate.

Why not two sheets of firerock?  

The rebar through the stud holes sounds like a winner especially if you bond them together somehow.

Find a door off a walk-in cooler.  They are steel and insulated.  We designed our terrace level so that my gun safe is at the end of the wine cellar.  My builder cover the door with wood paneling and stained it to match the room.  It blends in with the wine cellar and you would never guess what's behind the door.   The walls are 13" concrete and I doubt a fire could possibly affect my guns.

concrete is a bitch to pour in a basement

Do you really have to pour premixed?  A customer of ours dumped bags of Quikrete down an existing block wall that's around their computer room with a few cups of water poured between each bag.  Their reinforcement was a bunch of scrap 12 and 8 gauge stripped copper wire.  About four years later when I knocked a hole in one of the walls to add a hole for six extra outlets, a 6" square hole for network cables, and a 2'x3' hole for a new air conditioner, the concrete was reasonable hard to bust through.  I've put large holes in concrete foundations before, and it wasn't nearly that strong, but I thought it was strong enough considering the simplicity.

Another tough wall I've put a hole in had plexiglass between the layers of fireproofing material in the wall.  That really to gummed-up drill bits and saw blades when it melted from the friction.  Of course a saw with a blade with a large enough kerf will cut it easily, but those little reciprocating saw blades just didn't work.

Even tougher than that was the 6" of tarred string I drilled through.  The tar would not only gum-up drill bits, but the string would grab enough to rip the drill out of your hands.  It hurt after a few times.  My reciprocating saw was also useless against this material.  It took me three hours to drill a 1/4" hole through 6" of this material.  Apparently the tar was poured in when it was hot, because it was stiff enough where you just couldn't pull it out.

pouring a concrete roof in a finished house is a near impossibility.

I have seen that done in an office building.  Overheard forms are a huge pain.  You have to build them strong enough to support the entire huge weight of the concrete.  The plywood in one part bent just enough to let the concrete start pouring out of the form.  The workers then accidentally knocked the entire thing down when trying to stop that leak in a hurry.  Now that was a mess.

If you do overhead forms, make sure you get someone that's done it before.z

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What size are ya'll planning to go with these things?  I was thinking 10' x 6' or so.

After reading all this and checking the links, I think I wantit garage (3 car) sized!  This will go into a house design and the space will be a bunker, shop, vault, shelter, a multi purpose master piece, of course if I do it I can't post all the details because it's suppose to be secret!

Quoted: What size are ya'll planning to go with these things?  I was thinking 10' x 6' or so.

It will depend on wether I have a basement or not. If I can, I'd love to swing 10x8 minimum, but I doubt I'd go bigger than 10x10, unless I also made the room my office.

I always get a kick when people argue about 1 hour versus 2 hour versus 3 hour fire ratings.How long do you think typical house fires last? And most folks put their safes in basements (usually block or poured) and the house burns off above it.Sure it'll come crashing down if it goes long enough,but how many burn ALL the way down?
First,any safe is better than no safe.A hidden safe is even better.Or,a cheap discount "decoy"gun case/rack/safe with your SKSs and Mossbergs in it,and your good guns hidden in your good safe.
A friend/FFL had a room poured when he built his last house.Basically about 6' wide all along long run of basement.Entrance is thru a the back of stick built little closet off of one end,so wall that safe room is behind looks like exterior basement wall from inside.For ceiling,(so no one could cut thru from upstairs) he used 1 1/2 " angle around inside perimeter,then slid 10 ga sheet in the slot between joists and angle.Then we just tack welded it every couple feet.Last section was a pain (all had to go up together= beer and friends).
Very few people even know it's there,so that goes a long way to securing it,plus it's almost impossible to realise it's there from inside the basement.